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Forum Post: The GOP's Terms of Surrender Document

Posted 9 years ago on Nov. 29, 2012, 1:03 a.m. EST by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Surrender Document

by Stephen Pizzo

Every war has a first day, and I remember when the Culture War was declared. It was August 1992 in Houston. I know because I was there, at Ground Zero, when the Culture War was formally declared.

That was the convention when Ronald Reagan handed the GOP standard off to George H. Bush. And it was the convention at which Pat Buchanan declared war on that part of America that embraced "secular humanism," rather than good old Judeo-Christianism.

I won't recall the battles. We all remember them too well. But every war ends eventually and, hopefully this November's election marked the beginning of the end of that one. With the youth vote on the rise and racial demographics moving from Wonderbread-white to whole-wheat brown, it seems clear that Buchanan and his troops are pretty well on their way to a well-earned place upon the trash heap of history.

Oh sure, a few will refuse to surrender to the inevitable, like those straggler-Japanese soldiers who turned up decades later hiding in the jungles and hills of long ago-liberated South Pacific islands. But the voters have spoken and will, in the years ahead, speak even louder. It's over General Pat, et al.

So I figured it's time to start setting out terms of surrender for the GOP's culture warriors. I am not going to insist that their surrender be unconditional. After all, as a student of history, I remember well what happened after WW I when the French and British exacted unreasonably harsh terms on the Germans. That just set the stage for the next war, and another culture war is the last thing we need.

Therefore I will be generous. For starters, no one goes to the gallows.

But there are some bottom line concessions we should insist upon. So here's a first rough draft of the GOP's Culture Wars Terms of Surrender:

Culture War Articles of Surrender.

Article One: We, (hereafter meaning the GOP) acknowledge a fertilized human egg is no more a person than a fertilized chicken egg is a chicken.

Article Two: Evolution is science. Creationism is not science. Evolution belongs in science classes. Creationism belongs in church.

Article Three: Corporations are political entities created for legal and tax reasons only. Corporations are not now, nor have they ever been, the same thing as "people." After all, if corporations were really persons, and treated accordingly, prisons would be filled with boards of directors. Since they are not, we hereby acknowledge the difference.

Article Four: We acknowledge that wealth has never trickled down. We admit that this is especially true for the American economy, which is 70% driven by consumers consuming. We acknowledge the direct cause-effect relationship between consumers spending money on stuff and the wealth of those who produce that stuff; to wit, wealth trickling up, not down. We apologize for any inconvenience or hardships our previous cyclical and self-serving position on this matter may have caused.

Article Five: We hereby acknowledge that the First Amendment's clause on religion only bars the government from establishing or favoring an official religion, or discriminating against particular religion(s). The First Amendment does not, we acknowledge, give any particular religion, no matter how demographically dominant, the right to impose their beliefs on those who do not share them. Nor does the First Amendment allow any religion to impose its beliefs in public schools or enshrined in government policy.

Article Six: We hereby acknowledge that climate change is not only real, but in large part the fault of mankind's careless and wanton use of fossil fuels. And, we admit here that our earlier position, as noted in the bumper sticker slogan: "Drill Baby, Drill," was actually, "Dumb Baby, Dumb." (Special apologies offered to the citizens of New Jersey.)

Article Seven: We promise to cease opposition to scientifically-sound alternative energy. We also acknowledge that other countries are pulling ahead of the US in the development of financially and ecologically sustainable alternative energy solutions. Germany, for example, now produces a surplus of solar-produced electrical power. We hereby acknowledge we missed the boat on that one and that, rather than being part of the solution, were the very embodiment of the problem. We are really,really sorry about that.

Article Eight: We acknowledge that, if America is about anything, it's about immigration and assimilation. The color and ethnicity of immigrants changes over time. We apologize for reacting poorly to this fact in the recent past and promise to me more welcoming to legal immigrants in the future, no matter their color, creed or nationality. (We also took note in the last election that the votes of people of color counted just the same as the votes of white people with red necks. Duly noted.)

Article Nine: We acknowledge that, while women are equal to men in all areas of ability, there are undeniable biological differences. This is particularly true when it comes to reproduction. Men cannot get pregnant, for example. In the recent past we supported reactionary forces on the right that wished to make it difficult, if not impossible, for women to control what happens to and within their own bodies. This was wrong. In fact, we acknowledge, those restrictive measures bordered upon a massive human rights violation. We promise to, from this day forward, to shun such totally dickish behavior.

Article Ten: Finally we agree to cut all ties with groups that are or associate themselves with the low-brow movement that broadly slithers under the banner of "The Tea Party." Furthermore we apologize to the broad American electorate for any encouragement or financial support we rendered to this collection of largely certifiable ignoramuses. We admit to embracing stupidity in an attempt to find votes from a larger demographic than just the rich and super-rich. But, since our party had had little if any entree into the world of ordinary Americans. we instead fostered a dangerous relationship with America's lowest of the lowest denominators. We wholeheartedly apologize for that. (Besides, all that came back and bit us in the ass this November anyway.)

Article 11: The Sandy Hook Shooting Massacre was the straw that broke the camel's back, and we finally realize the obscenity of our obsolete firearm laws, and call for an immediate ban on all sales, trades and ownership of all guns and ammo, NOW!!

People's lives trump guns!


So, there you go - the first rough draft of Terms of Surrender in The Culture War. I will leave it to those better qualified than me to sharpen it up for the final surrender ceremony on January 21st.


About author Stephen Pizzo is the author of numerous books, including "Inside Job: The Looting of America's Savings and Loans," which was nominated for a Pulitzer. His web site is News For Real.



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[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 9 years ago
[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8306) from Phoenix, AZ 9 years ago

don't forget 2010

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Article 11: The Sandy Hook Shooting Massacre was the straw that broke the camel's back, and we finally realize the obscenity of our obsolete firearm laws, and call for an immediate ban on all sale, trades and ownership of all guns and ammo, NOW!!

People's lives trump guns!


[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8306) from Phoenix, AZ 9 years ago

I commented there too, I'm sure you saw this one too


[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Article 12: We promise to stay in our FEMA camps and not disrupt sane political discourse with deranged notions of Guvmint takeover!

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8306) from Phoenix, AZ 9 years ago

Did you see how the GOP thinks only the red states should get emergency relief?


[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

But Pelosi, a Dem, is standing next to Boner, a Con, so you see they are both the same! You can see it!



[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

A Modest Proposal … Take Two

Friday, 04 January 2013 | Bob Alexander | http://tvnewslies.org

Note: The first time I heard about "A Short History of Conservative Obstruction to Progress" was on Mike Malloy's radio program in 2008. I was so impressed with it I put it up in the "rants" section on Superbeans (http://superbeans.com/rant_02_01_08.htm) as a readily accessible reminder that The Elite, and the Crazy Stupid People that follow them, have unrelentingly opposed everything and anything that would benefit We The People.

The key word here is unrelentingly. Conservatives are like the movie monsters from the Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street, and Friday the 13th movies. You can’t stop them. You can stab them in the neck, set them on fire, or whack them in the head with a machete, but after a few seconds of getting their movie-monster-mojo together … they rise up again and again and again … and their murderous rampage continues until the closing credits. Unlike their victims, the movie monsters don’t need to stop to sleep, eat, or even catch their breath. But when their hapless quarry takes a breather … Watch Out … that’s when The Monsters Get You. [Zombies]

The Elite and their Crazed Conservative Shills in Congress are even more powerful than their silver screen counterparts. They can lose elections and still have the power to destroy. How could these people deny relief to hurricane Sandy victims? Because they’re monsters. Why are they still trying to destroy our social safety nets? George Carlin explained it all perfectly:

“They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want; they want more for themselves and less for everybody else. … And now they’re coming for your social security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They’ll get it.”

They’ll get it because they’ve spent decades and untold billions to create and condition enough dumb-asses that don’t know what the hell is going on but believe, and deeply care about, gibberish.

Here are some Ugly American Facts. 61% of Americans don’t believe in evolution. 47% believe the universe is less than 10,000 years old. One child in four grows up not knowing how to read, 21 million Americans can't read at all, and the average American doesn’t read one book in a year. This means if you go outside … you’ve got more than a fifty-fifty chance of meeting a crazy stupid person. Hell … there’s a huge chance you’re related to crazy stupid people. I know I am.

My little circle of acquaintances and family members is positively teeming with crazy stupid people. Maybe you’re in the same boat. So how are we supposed to deal with people who fervently support war crimes, deny science, disregard facts, fear anyone with a skin color darker than their own, are completely unhinged by the concept of same-sex marriage, and believe it is more important to regulate vaginas instead of guns?

I’ve spent years struggling with that question and I’ve spent years doing what all good little liberals do … countering nonsense with facts. You know how that’s worked out? So far I have a 100% failure rate. Not one crazy stupid person budged one millimeter from their position. The Iraq War was A Good Thing. There is no such thing as Global Climate Change. There is no such thing as Peak Oil. Brown People are Scary. Gay people are Scary. Women are Scary. Gun violence is caused by everything but guns.

So I quit talking to these people because I finally realized a very simple fact. You cannot use a rational argument with anyone who is irrational. So put down The Big Book of Facts and walk away. Just walk away.

I read an article by Alan Greenblatt on the NPR website the other day: When It Comes To Politics, States Are Barely United.

The “Red” states are getting redder and the “Blue” states are getting bluer. I don’t think that would be a surprise to anyone who has sat across the Thanksgiving table while the fat-assed brother-in-law holds forth on the dangers of gay marriage. There’s nothing you can say to him that’ll change his mind. If you counter any of his dumb-ass arguments he’ll simply double down on his dumb-assery and keep talking until he runs out of steam. You can’t have a “two-way street” discussion with this guy. It’s not allowed. So now we get to the Modest Proposal part.

It’s not enough to passively avoid these dumb-asses. I’m not talking about “drawing a line in the sand.” It’s already there. They drew the damn thing in the first place. It’s time to actively shun these people. If this yahoo believes in denying anyone their rights you tell him he’s a goddamned fool. If it’s your house … tell him to get the hell out. If it’s his house … gather up your coats and hats and family and get the hell out. We’ve got to stop tolerating these dumb-asses. Piers Morgan dispensed with Gun Nut Larry Pratt by simply telling him, “You're An Unbelievably Stupid Man, Aren't You?”

We need more of this type of response to dumb-assery. We have got to put these dumb-asses on notice that we’re not going to tolerate their insanity any longer. We’re done with these yahoos. Crazy Stupid People should not be invited to the conversation because of a misguided desire to appear to be fair and balanced. The most ridiculous position I can imagine is to ask the people who caused the problem to help with the solution.

We’ve got to shun the dumb-asses because they have no interest in solving the problem. Their agenda is to make it worse.

Now I realize that my Modest Proposal is in no way helping to bridge the political divide that exists in the United States. Some might say it exacerbates the problem.


The fat-assed bother-in-law vehemently against same sex marriage is the problem. Ignoring him is the problem. Tolerating his ignorance and inhumanity is the problem. Telling him to shut up might be the beginning of the solution.

See here’s the deal … This isn’t about politics anymore … it’s about survival. We can’t have a bunch of bible-thumping morons influence the decisions about what to do about Global Climate Change. We can’t have these dupes of the corporatocracy interfere anymore. We’ve got to tell them to shut the hell up and go sit in the corner until the adults figure out what to do.

So shun ‘em and see what happens. Will the Blue States get Blue-ier and the Red States get crazier?


But that’s already happening.

Will it get better if we negotiate with Crazy Stupid People?

No. We’ll just lose more ground as the oceans rise.

Is there a solution to The Political Divide?

Probably not … but at least we’ll have the satisfaction of giving the crazy bastards the finger before we all sail off the cliff.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Who, me?

Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!


[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8306) from Phoenix, AZ 9 years ago

No not you, it's just that after 2008 nobody saw 2010 coming, with the gerrymandering following the 2010 census we got a hell of a battle in 2014, most of the people in the country voted for a D to go to the House but the Rs got 234 seats, and I don't know about the rest of the country but in AZ they will get the four they have now for sure, the Ds won all three close ones in AZ, if we are asleep they could win seats here maybe other places as well.

So when we don't raise the debt ceiling what is going to happen, because we are going off the "cliff" and straight into the limit, no doubt.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

I was afraid 2010 was coming because I was dealing with a lot of 2008 newbies on previous forums and boards who were falling for the Obama "disappointing failure" hype, just like they did for Dems being sabotaged after the Cons were sooooooo successful sandbagging Carter. But I did not imagine the degree of such asinine, masochistic petulance, amounting to tens of millions!

The cliff is BS.

This election is a start, not in any way a victory. We dodged a bullet to do more work, state work. The Cons are busy working overtime in overdrive!!! We have to hang Corporate Personhood, CU and the Grover (poopyhead) Pledge around their necks like tires and light them!!

Just posted about the Cliff: http://occupywallst.org/forum/record-profits-lower-wages-fewer-republicans-p2new/

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8306) from Phoenix, AZ 9 years ago

Kennedy killed Carter, if he served a hundred years he would never make up for Reagan.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Kennedy didn't help a whole lot, but the Big Oil contrived gas shortages, the Iran Hostage crisis, the secret dirty deal Raygun's henchmen made, and the media nightly execution of Carter (This was when, how and why ABC's Nightline started) reporting the horrible failure (among many BS others) of Carter to rescue the hostages ("Day Number 207 of the Iranian Hostage Crisis!" every fucking night!!!), and then that awful botched rescue mission (which made Benghazi look like kindergarten recess) all together on TV assassinated one of the best POTUSs we ever had!!! I followed it in real time and have written about it extensively.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8306) from Phoenix, AZ 9 years ago

Yes, but I expect the other side to try to win, often it's friends you have to watch, Kennedy did not even take Cater's hand on the stage, if you were "there" you may remember, believing in democracy when you don't win is when it counts, when you win it's easy.

For a prominent sitting senator to take on his party's President for the nomination well let's just say i have not seen it before or since, and then not to work ten times harder to undo the rift afterwards was fatal.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

It is my gut feeling, supreme wisdom (post self medication), and abject prejudice (the morning after) that Cons are descendants of the Loyalists/Royalists who wanted us to stay with an/the authoritarian King of England. They dig that shit, sadomasochist sickos they are! They hate democracy!! We Dems on the other hand always want to improve things but we all think our way is the best. Remember Will Rogers, "I belong to NO ORGANIZED political party, I'm a Democrat!!" We are our own worst enemy. Then remember, politics is a blood sport, and not a spectator sport. The facts that it's confused, vicious, and under-participated make for political chaos!

Nightline, and others, day in and day out drumming the various failures of Carter "Day Number 246, 247, 248...!!!" (Just after fucking tricky Dick and Watergate) killed Carter. And that's what Cons have done ever since!!!

This is one reason I always say Unite and Win, because if we did, we would!!!

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8306) from Phoenix, AZ 9 years ago

You are dead on about cons and liberals, I speak of this at length in my bio, there is two paths that of inherited power/wealth the way of the Royals and the the cons, or equal opportunity the way of the "little" d democrats and the liberals. This has been the struggle of Man since the beginning.

Whatever happened it was a long time ago, and Kennedy and Nader are dead (to me) but if Ted had worked his butt off for his country and party instead of his ego and if Nader had done the same the world would be a different place today.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

What in the hell did you do with that crazy bitch Guv of yours??

Rumors range from wandering the desert desperately seeking a burning bush to explain the election, to recruited by Sheldon Adelson for a new GOP POTUS symposium in Vegas!! Holy Christ on a crutch!!

Ted made a deal with the devil over Chappaquiddick, acquittal for just Senator. He just had to test it.

Nader (there's a great doc on him) is a victim of his own success, and the people he pissed off achieving it (Big Biz). I have been advocating for his appointment as AG or special DOJ Prosecutor for years. If he had been elected, he would have assassinated on his first week. Otherwise he's a spoiler, but so was Obama until he won.

Did you ever remark about the Surrender Document?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8306) from Phoenix, AZ 9 years ago

Obama not so much, I'm pretty sure he would have supported Hillary if she had won, I think he believes in democracy.

I think she is being vetted for Secretary of State, Rice is just a distraction while Obama clears his real pick. Remember how close they are?

Yeah my first remark was "let's not get ahead of ourselves" of course they do all that stuff. Here's a great five point platform:


[-] 1 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

This by NO means suggests that RepubliCons and their despicable tactics and policies are finished, they are not finished, they only lost the last battle in the ongoing war (Class War, Culture is one front). I present this article for clarification. In the fog of war, clarification is much needed. And if hindsight is 20/20 let's clearly see the deadly bullet we just dodged, and REALIZE party differences and the real enemy.

[+] -5 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

RepubliCons, haven't heard that one before. That one is a real winner. Since of course the guy with the most creative name-calling wins. Especially when the guy with the best name-calling is from the side that supposedly embraces tolerance and respect for all of humanity. The best way to express tolerance and respect is by calling people names if they don't agree with you, right?

[-] 3 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

It's a cruel and brutal world when liars, scoundrels, killers and thieves are forced to endure the horrors of name-calling, especially an aptly suited one, right? Perhaps ever more redistribution of our wealth to their 1% Charlie Mansons would somehow finally warm their cold-blooded RepubliCon Cultist hearts.

We spare them the gallows (not my choice for all the death, suffering and loss they caused), they should count their lucky stars. Sticks and stones...

[-] -2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

"We are the 47%!"

[-] 2 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago


[-] -2 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Do you really think BO is all about "indef Detention"? I don't (needs further investigation).

But I'm totally against capital punishment! Where is that petition!!??

And petitioning Congress to respect the will of the people: http://occupywallst.org/forum/senator-bernie-sanders-the-people-have-spoken/

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

I do not think any such thing. In fact I know that Pres Obama has NEVER used the authority that Repubs created in 2002 after they exploited the 9/11 attacks. And that Repubs wrote into the defense Bill last year.

Now Congress is facing this offensive violation of our rights again and Dems are fighting it, with the Udall amendment.

So I ask we support that good fight.


[-] -2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

You're not representing the 99% if you're referring to half of them as, "liars, scoundrels, killers and thieves."

That's the funny thing about Occupy, the claim to be non-partisan and to represent all of society, while Occupiers actually are the most overtly partisan group that be ever seen in my entire life.

[-] 2 points by gsw (3400) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 9 years ago

Mostly just the leadership of the gop, who does not even represent its members, on multiple issues.

End bush cuts for 1 percent


[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

Consider supporting the amendment to remove indef detention from the defense bill.


[-] 2 points by gsw (3400) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 9 years ago

Hi TJ.

This refers to economic class, not old political groups.

It is for the 100 percent, for the planet all inhabitants, by looking at the 1 percent oligarchs (extreme capitalists) as an economic, political entitity, against those who are not at the top economically. Ows represents you and all people economically and environmentally, even those around the world living in extreme poverty.

It's not just here in USA,

The 1 percent largely control the old traditional parties candidates, or political systems historically.

[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

Correct, it's about class, not political affiliation. So then why has Occupy allowed itself to become so biased toward the left, instead of working toward its stated goal of representing all of the 99%? "We are the 99%", has become an empty slogan that almost qualifies as doublespeak at this point. The slogan says exactly the opposite of reality, like saying, "war is peace." That's called doublespeak. It's doublespeak for an unapologetically partisan group to use a slogan that claims to include everybody. Even the Moral Majority didn't claim to be The Unanimity.

[-] 1 points by gsw (3400) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 9 years ago

How is it biased towards the left? That's your opinion.

Actually, I am biased to left, but also have conservative traits as well.

More of the conservative 99 percent, like you and me, are coming aboard.

[-] 3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

...but when they show up here they find nothing but insults. Name-calling. The insular, partisan nature of this site is actvely hostile to those potential supporters.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Divide and conquer....

The media runs everything....its why the right thinks OWS wants a bunch of handouts and the left thinks the Tea want the Corporations to run the nation...neither makes any fuckin sense but thats the conversation in a nutshell.

[-] 2 points by gsw (3400) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 9 years ago

But now we go back to independence

...probably a lot of OWS voted third party

although if you had to choose Repub or Dem, some went Dem for Supreme Court protection and protection for women, and for some improvement for health care, which is not a big improvement. http://www.pnhp.org/

we ought to consider universal human needs, over any party

thankfully that is over so we can get on with better ideas than what the parties offer...they are not bending over backward to help help the planet survive human caused climate change.

Yes always issues.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

Just wait until republicans have power again, and these idiot Dems made it possible for them to force us to buy shit from the very lobbies we are fighting against.

Un fuckin real.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago

Issues - ALWAYS - ISSUES !!!

[-] 2 points by gsw (3400) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 9 years ago

I apologize for the distasteful behavior of partisans, which does not serve the purposes of the country, or ows, but serves the 1 percent, by playing in to the old left right battles encouraged by the 1 percent.

Yes, it got bad with the election, and may not dissipate here, which is too bad, as it is where the common man could get information on ows firsthand.

individuals on this site, who were very Dem party line, were also castigated, but claimed a right to be here. You got to fight for your right.

as the articles say, if the tea party and ows had united, it would have been potent.

but many here deemed that most tea and GOP leaders have very much had their heads in a bad place, and the people who get all their news from FOx are closed minded, not informed, which is pretty clear Fox is a branch of the GOP.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 9 years ago

You dont have to apologize for the idiotic state of this country.

They vote for people who dont like them, then blame their fuckin neighbors.

Its a disaster, and its not stopping anytime soon unless either somthing happens or people get organized Quick.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

"stated goal" of representing all of the 99%?

Nah. You don't speak for Occupy. I believe our stated goals are on specific issues that affect the 99%, whether that is economic equity, tax fairness, foreclosure, environment, the goals are change that benefits the 99%.

The goal has nothing to do with representing every single person in the 99%. That is ridiculous and a false argument that you put forth only to criticize the movement.

And if occupy leans left it is because the goals of Occupy are progressive change to correct the problems created by 30 years of bad conservative policies (supported by some members of Dem party also)


[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

Yes, I understand that you see no contradiction between your unapologetic partisanship and the "We are the 99%" slogan. I do.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

We are the 99%, because we ain't the 1% plutocrats that stole the peoples govt and exploits the working class (99%). Nothing partisan about that.

What unapologetic partisanship are you referring to?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

You happily reiterate any time you're asked that you're focused on opposing conservative voices. Instead of opposing the 1%. You equate all conservatives with the 1%, and so you conclude that the way to fight for the 99% is to oppose half of them.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

I support progressive solutions to all our problems which I believe are all rooted in bad conservative policies.

I never said I oppose "conservative voices", I've never equated "all conservatives with the1%"

And YOU do not speak for me so for you to say "I conclude that to fight for the 99% is to oppose half of them" is absolutely ridiculous.

My fight is in support of progressive change that benefits the 99%. (regardless of party)

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

We had a conversation that went on for days about your assumption that the words "progressive" and "conservative" are opposites, and about the meaning of the term "liberalism", versus "modern liberalism". We talked about how the Progressive Party was founded by a Republican, and all kinds of other history. It was all in the context of Lawrence Lessig's assertion from his book One Way Forward that the only way to make progress is for the left and the right to learn to work together on issues of common interest, like campaign finance reform.

What would be the point in having that conversation with you a second time if you don't even remember having the conversation the first time around?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

You don't have to have any conversation you don't want.

I converse in order to express my opinion in the hopes I might convince/convert another 99%'r to agree with my progressive approach.

I can't what the point would be for you to converse.You mustdecide for your self. I would say that I agree all of the 99% (L/R alike) must work together. Enough of them MUST agree on the best direction forward. (I suppose we will never have unanimity in opinion)

I doubt I argued about whether progressive & conservative are opposites since that is a meaningless discussion.

I submit I would have disregarded the historical issues because although I love history (especially Teddy & his Bullmoose Progressive Party) I prefer the discussions regarding the issues/solutions we must fight for today.

And that is the reason discussing old discussions is not my preference either.

Why haven't you mentioned one solution/position to address a problem that affects the 99%?

You've criticized OWS, Me, Our old discussions about history, and word definitions, but you haven't mentioned one solution/position. Why?

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Can your pettifogging and RW hate-lie talking points. They only work for the Ditto-Head Zombies!

That's the problem with you righties, you all parrot the same lines and think everyone is as dumb as you.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (23620) 9 years ago

What the right wing reactionaries don't understand is that what is best for the 47% is best for the 100%. You can't have a thriving, successful society that marginalizes almost half of the population.

[-] 1 points by Justoneof99 (80) 9 years ago

Agree!! The 47% should not be marginalized, They should be invited to join the 53%, and pay their fair share of taxes.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23620) 9 years ago

Oh. You're so funny. They do pay taxes, total taxes, at a higher percent of their income than anyone else. Sales tax, property tax, motor vehicles tax, etc. Oops. Forgot about all that, right? If they pay less tax on their earned income it's because they barely earn enough earned income to survive.

[-] 1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 9 years ago

Does your logic apply to ALL situations in society?

I ask because according to your logic, we can't have a thriving, successful society if the majority in power marginalizes almost half of the population.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23620) 9 years ago

Yep. All.

[-] 1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 9 years ago

Then those who marginalize others in this forum, or anywhere else, are insuring that our society never becomes a thriving, successful one.

[-] 1 points by freakyfriday (179) 9 years ago

My thoughts exactly.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Oh, the RW propagandists understand, the parroting zombies just repeat.

Divide and conquer, what's new is old.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

I waited until after the election to come back here specifically because I wanted to avoid the sickening partisanship. But I'm curious, what Republican talking point are you accusing me of parroting? That Occupy is hopelessly partisan? Aren't you proving that statement right now?

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago


[-] -1 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Your supreme nobility is duly noted!

And this: http://www.alternet.org/election-2012/alternet-comics-tom-tomorrow-republicans-somber-post-election-introspection

Gee, now why would you Righties be concerned with OWS partisanship? Hmmmmmm!

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

Because progress will require both the left and the right to find the strength to work together on issues of common interest.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Left progress and Right regress?

Not a recipe for PROGRESS!

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

Thank you for proving my point. Now go back to waving your leftist banner.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Oh, Norquist has some poopy head for you!!

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

Liars are liars. Calling them out doesn't mean we don't support change that will benefit all the 99%.

In order to achieve that change we MUST identify those standing in our way, against us!


You wont send a message against indef detention.?


[-] -1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

"We are the 47%, and we know what's best for the entire 99%, regardless of their opinions. It's for their own good."

And yes that other part was irrelevant. I see you spamming that link left and right today. Your hero Obama made it virtually impossible to shut down Guantanamo when he signed the 2011 NDAA. "Change."

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

Pres Obama is not my hero. You don't speak for me.

Supporting change that we believe benefits all the 99% is not us imposing anything on anyone. All the 99% are entitled to express their opinions. All opinions must compete in the marketplace of ideas.

Each of us think we are right and the others wrong. So? What exactly is you objection?

We are against trickle down, and weak regulations. If you support them we think you are wrong! Isn't that debate allowed?

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

I'm aware that you're never going to see the irony in an unapologetic partisan who claims to represent everybody. I just have to point out your doublespeak, that's all. Occupy does not represent the 99% and you in particular don't, yet you still claim that you do because your beliefs are what's best for everybody whether they like it or not. But the partisanship of Occupy is a big part of why it fizzled out, since Occupy failed to actually represent the 99%.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

Occupy has NOT fizzled out! It is still growing. You are absolutely wrong!

Occupy does not claim to represent everybody! You are absolutely WRONG. "We ARE the 99%", simply means we are all PART of the group being exploited by the wealthy oligarchs who have stolen ou rgovt.

Occupy is well aware that different opinions exist within the 99%.

Like every person in the 99% (even the 100%) we think our opinion is correct. Those who disagree think THEY are correct. The ensuing debate is good, necessary, & appropriate.

No doublespeak, you just lack a basic ability to understand simple concepts. Perhaps you should discuss with someone that you consider intelligent first. Otherwise I don't mind correcting your misunderstandings.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

One thing that this web site proves is that Occupy in general is not capable of the kind of debate that you're taking about. The standard here for interacting with conservatives, even potential supporters, is name-calling. If Occupy theoretically values respectful debate then it has collectively failed to exercise the discipline necessary to accomplish that debate. Taunts like "RepubliCon", and "Repelican" are the standard here.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

Does that hurt your feelings? Then don't converse with those users. If you can't find anyone who is civil then perhaps another forum will be better suited for you.

Good luck in all your good efforts.

Oh Support the fight against indef Detention:


[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 9 years ago

"We support marginalized voices -- oh, except for those of you who don't agree. For you people, don't let the door hit you on the way out..."

I think it's amusing that you and I have had conversations about this that went on for days that you don't even remember.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

Don't let it bother you. I've argued with many people all the time here, other sites, & in the real world. On this site so many people use multiple logins I just take 'em as they come and make a specific effort not to remember every loginname.


And I've never said don't let the door hit you. I want you to stay! i suggested another forum if you can't find a civil discussion here. Personally I believe you CAN find a civil discussion. So I don't see any reason for you to leave.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 9 years ago

Kochs know they lost. but haven't truly surrendered


Keep up the pressure.

[-] 1 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 9 years ago

That is absolutely brilliant and, unfortunately, absolutely useless. The (R)ight will never surrender. Fanaticism does not understand that concept.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

But we can shove it down their treasonous throats and bar them from office with it!!

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Add more terms!

Like stop hating America!!

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Come on, this was meant to be added to, more amendments!!

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

ATTN Amnesiacs & Samers: GOP Holding US Hostage ~ AGAIN! GOP Criminality Veiled by 1% Owned News Media

Sufferers of amnesia and the "Both Parties are the SAME" ailments have yet another chance to safeguard against delusion: Bookmark and Remember the saboteuring role RepubliCons are playing in this "Fiscal Cliff"~Debt Ceiling sequel to the GOP Hostage Crisis Series. They could not care less what harm they do to the country or its people in their Cult Worship for the Greed-Addled few in the 1%. This time, don't forget and/or miss the RepubliCon malfeasance and sabotage ever again!!


[-] 0 points by Coyote88 (-24) 9 years ago

Wow. Just, wow. The ego on display here is amazing.

[-] -1 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

What? If mere Terms of Surrender are "ego on display", what must you label the evil maniacal fraud, theft and carnage (leaving millions dead, maimed or destitute) perpetrated by RepubliCons in their Righteous Crusade!!

[-] 0 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

An intelligent person might label that as victory. And I think it very foolish to label this recent electoral victory as success; let me take a minute to remind you that all past "Wonderbread-white to whole-wheat browns" have ended in complete disaster; just look at Haiti with its some thirty five coups in a 100 years, or look at South Africa.

The point is a political win does not necessarily translate to an economic win; it does not ensure our prosperity. Consider too that white bread is but ground whole wheat... and we grind it for a reason - whole wheat cannot be digested. So we boil it, and pound it, and grind it, until it is palatable - our hunger is satiated, and some call that "victory."

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Metaphor gazing aside, only evil-maniacal RepubliCons and their greed-addled 1% leaders would consider the desecration of America a victory or intelligent.

This election is a chance for reparations. Let's use it.

[-] -2 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

A reparation that all Americans of income must finance is not a win; it will only aid the few who have no concern for any form of financial remuneration.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

You don't realize that this is not a team vs team sport.

Americans for America!

1% hoarding, hostage taking and sabotage is treason. Nationalize all Big Biz traitors!!

[-] -3 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

It is a team sport - it is us against corrupt government. The 1% isn't taking your money, it's government that is taking your money.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

WRONG: http://occupywallst.org/forum/you-see-it-here-gop-rejection-denial/#comment-885511

We are the government, when Cons aren't in power.

[-] -3 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

The election's over - we all have hell to pay - go stump it somewhere else.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

The People made their choice!

The People have spoken!

Despite the CU money, the RW propaganda, the Voter suppression, so many Americans REJECTED the GOP Lie, enough of their Votes were still counted.

Imagine the monumental landslide if Cons didn't cheat our democracy and country.

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

The people have not even begun to speak; in fact one could argue that the expression of a silent vote is but the measure of our ambivalence.

If you can't end this political divide, or find some way to appeal to the other white people, Occupy is done.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

Go Stuff it!!!

All your RW crazy side wants is to censor open knowledge and news!!!

[-] -3 points by lignite (-303) 9 years ago

occupy has been done around the time it started. This site is about all they have left to cling to

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 9 years ago

Wrong! Keep dreamin' We are growing stronger everyday.

That's just you whislin' past the graveyard. Wishful thinking.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 years ago

R U sure that you are lignite ( a soft brown coal ) and not just a steaming pile of shit?

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 years ago

What hell is that Mr. Dragon, and who's payin' who?

[-] -2 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

Every American in this country will pay for this election - what we voted for was higher living expenses, decreased employment, higher taxes.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 years ago

Citizens United paid for the election.

I'd rather we the people did. There'd be a whole lot fewer useless commercials that way.

WallStreet raises the cost of everything every day. They also demand lower wages....every day.

Teabagge(R)a raised my taxes, and I didn't vote for those asses. Did you?.

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

Teabaggers are a very recent development; heretofore they did not exist as politically influential entity. It doesn't matter; it's the Dems who own government and they are responsible for Wall Street and monetary policy.

Government is our enemy and stumping for them is treading on Occupy.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 years ago

Teabagge(R)s are libe(R)tarian tinged (R)epelican'ts.

Just another foil for the GOP.

WallStreet has been our nemesis for some time now.

Too bad you didn't notice, but since you have the presence of mind to post on a forum called, strangely enough.....Occupy Wall Street, perhaps in time you will come to know the truth.........

That "WallStreet's" the World over's, demand for ever increasing profits are what's wrong today.

[-] 1 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

Except that this forum doesn't attack Wall Street; there has been very little mention of our present monetary policy. You're focused then on what, our stock exchanges? This government owns our monetary policy. It determines how we interact with Wall Street bankers.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 years ago


They take your money in every way they can.

In ways you never even noticed.

Plus they wreck the Planet at the same time.

[-] -2 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

The institutions of Wall Street are owned by our government; government is complicit - it is their monetary policy that is failing us.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 years ago

You funny goy. You have it exactly backwards.

Good job, no go make like a Rapa Nui and chop down those last few trees

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

I already did. And I'm saying yes to air pollution and no to Obama's fuel oil this year.

In the Appalachians, "airish" is a word. It means cold, crisp, fresh air. When people burn wood that air is all sigobbly... but you wouldn't know that because you live in a high rise in the city; you live above the smog and your heat is on autopilot; you never give it a second thought.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 years ago

Yep, you still have it backwards.

Have fun makin' stuff up about me though.........:)

Still haven't bothered to google Rapa Nui though.

Have fun with cancer and chimney fires while still can.

Saying yes to air pollution, as a form of retaliation, is like stepping on your own dick and wondering why sex isn't as nice as it used to be.

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

This isn't retaliation; this is heat. What this government doesn't' seem to realize is that you can't stifle people economically; you can't coerce behavior with economic restraints - we've survived over 200,000 years beating all economic impediment. And now it's "burn baby burn."

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 years ago

WallStreet coerces behaviors every day. In ways you've never considered.

Their junior partners, the corporations, have whole departments dedicated to doing just that and spending billions for exactly that purpose.

You still haven't answered the Rapa Nui question.

[-] -1 points by RedDragon (-161) 9 years ago

I don't care about the Rapa Nui because we ARE the Rapa Nui.

By the end of the 13th century the people of the British Isles had reduced their forests to but ten percent of their former presence. And that was owned by the King. There was NO wood for either heat or the cook fire; they subsisted literally for hundreds of years on the little wood that could be extracted from the hedgerow and the coppiced oak. Those hedgerows of merry old England still exist to bear testament to these words.

Contrary to popular belief, our early colonial ancestors were not agrarian; they were pastoral cattlemen and subsistence farmers and their cash crop of preference was actually the tall white oak. These trees were nurtured just like any other crop to ensure tall straight growth. Those that curved appropriately were utilized for ships timbers; those that were tall and straight were utilized for masts, etc. The white oak was the tree of preference even in furniture making because unlike their British counterpart the American colonial joiner did not hand-saw wood - he utilized riven wood and then planed it. And these oaks split beautifully.

But... the steam driven locomotive succeeded the tall ship in its hunger for wood and by 1900 all wooded areas of this country had also been relieved of much of their primal forest; very few of these forests remain. In the area that I currently reside the forests had been so reduced in all directions that they had created a virtual plain that extended for miles. Only the long perfectly straight - perfectly straight as the shortest distance between two points - "ways" remained as deeply rutted from the continuous sledding of logs from our woods. These wooded areas are only now beginning to return; only now are we beginning to see what the colonial classified as timber - a minimum 8" diameter - and only now does the canopy appear destined to once again choke out all competitors to allow the tall trees to return. But these forests will never be the same because we have introduced invasive species and stripped them of their other hardwoods.

Again, contrary to popular belief, the long and winding country road rarely existed except in an effort to follow the stream to access the mills. Colonial roads - '"ways" - were generally perfectly straight. The winding country road only begins to see preferential use - therefore eventual pavement - with the advent of the automobile that permitted more leisurely travel.

Again, I would say, we ARE the Rapa Nui - my concern is for the ecological preservation of our forests, within some practical context; I don't expect people who can't afford our fuel oil to assume a frozen lifeless state. You know, it was only a few years ago that our North Carolina mountain folk were heating with less expensive kerosene; have you seen the price of kerosene lately?

And so my ever-so environmentally concerned friends, we must now bid adieu to our trees; I am not liking it.

[-] -2 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 9 years ago

AlterNet Comics: Tom Tomorrow on Republicans' Somber Post-Election Introspection