Forum Post: the contradiction of this movement
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 3:33 p.m. EST by hoot
(313)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
We are asking for the 1% percent to pay more taxes right? Taxes go that go to the federal government to help you out right? You want to pay more taxes because they are paying off government to get what they want? So the solution is to have them give more money to the Government?
am i missing something
the solution is to have them not have the power to run the government. the solution is free market system inside of democracy instead of a slave market system inside of corporate oligarchy. the solution is to end lobbying. The solution is to have the government regulate industry so that industry is fair and ethical instead of evil and inhumane.
your just playing obvious troll games with a straw man argument.
http://www.oligarchyusa.com/
http://www.istockanalyst.com/finance/story/5390832/some-fascinating-stats-about-our-corporate-oligarchy
http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/category/21st-century-challenges/ethicsandeconomics/
According to a 2008 article by David Rothkopf, the world’s 1,100 richest people have almost twice the assets of the poorest 2.5 billion (Rothkopf, 2008). Aside from the obvious problem – that this global elite has their hands in everything from politics to financial institutions – …
http://theprogressiveplaybook.com/2011/09/occupywallstreet-an-american-tahrir/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ght22PnCXy0
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/wisconsin-is-ground-zero_b_825321.html
http://last-lost-empire.com/blog/?tag=global-corporate-oligarchy
To the extent that we, the people, are removed from control over our lands, marketplaces, central banks, and media we are no longer empowered. In practice, those few who do control the land, central bank, media and "free market" are the real rulers of our corrupt and declining "democracy."
Due to propaganda from a corporate-owned and edited media we are kept from knowing, much less debating, the nature of our system. Due to a central bank owned by bankers, media owned by a few global concerns, and trade regime controlled by global corporations (i.e., one designed to remove the people from control over their markets and environments) the vast majority have become little more than latter-day serfs and neo-slaves upon a corporate latifundia.
To restore a semblance of effective democracy and true freedom Americans, and people around the world, need to re-educate themselves as to the true nature of their political and economic systems. Toward this end, OligarchyUSA.com is dedicated to providing old and new information, books, links, reform ideas and debates not easily found or accessed today in establishment media.
OligarchyUSA.com is but one more site and sign of the times as ground-up counter-revolutions arise around the world... all in response to a forced and freedomless globalization courtesy of a ruling global elite perfecting their top-down plutocracy and revolutions of the rich against the poor. In short, democracy is no longer effective today. For this reason, it is toward a restoration of truly effective and representative democracies, and natural freedom, that this site is dedicated.
It takes two to screw us! Politicians to hold us down, so then the Corporations can do the screwing!!! Politicians need better rules to follow to prevent lobbying! We tax payers should also fund important elections, so the best person wins and not the one with the most money!!! The movement needs at least these 2 demands!!! Politicians need to be fair and keep it balanced for all and not start class warfare! They all need fired so we can start over but next time they work for everyone and not favor one group over another. Write it down and pass the word!!!
This is what I want first then I want the Politicians to fix it! Plane and simple! Horse comes first then the cart!!!
is it really necessary to have our entire lively hood base one the dollar like its God and life is nothing without it? we created this epidemic of money rules. I think unless there is another solution to in brace...just suck it up and make do until something happens.
No, we're asking to end corporate dominance of our society -- the same dominance that allows a tiny minority of extremely affluent Americans to effectively steer the direction of our society.
And two, they are not paying off "the government." They are paying off individual officials within the government who then use their position to further corporate authority.
yea paying off the government, if you don't want coporate dominance why are you asking them to give the government more money?
I'm not. You are making assumptions that are not valid.
These are protests about the integrity of democracy, not pushing for higher corporate taxes.
ok well i've been to the protest and have seen many signs and talked to many people that would like the corporations to pay their fair share..meaning pay more taxes sorry for assuming that you agreed with this, i was wrong to do so
No, no, don't apologize! A lot of people have been getting confused on this point, and I think it is important to talk about.
People are coming to occupations with signs talking about what they, individually, want -- which I think is fantastic. This movement is all about making our voices heard -- all of us! But the individuals speak for themselves, not for the movement as a whole.
The issue behind Occupy Wall Street (and the other Occupations, of course) is that corporations have an unhealthy degree of influence in our government. How much, exactly, and what should be done about it is a matter for debate. The goals of the movement are twofold -- the first is to open a public debate about what can be done to curb corporate influence in society.
There is more to the Occupation than protests -- people are organizing General Assemblies (they're open to the public, go to one and make your voice heard!) to discuss policy proposals like reinstating Glass-Steagall. The second goal is, obviously, to exert pressure on the powerful to make changes that emerge from the Assemblies.
People who want higher corporate taxes are making their voices heard, obviously -- and I invite you to go and make your voice heard, too!
But, on the issue of corporate taxation, here's just my thought about your argument: while corporations would still obviously be paying a lot of money to government, corporations also tend to be shortsighted and greedy. When they can, they lobby for lower taxes. If they're paying more money in taxes, couldn't that be taken as a sign that they actually have less influence in government, since one of their general goals is to use their influence to reduce the amount of money they pay in taxes?
My personal stance is that corporate taxes can be raised or not, but we have a crapload of tax loopholes that allow companies to pay significantly less than they should and in some cases pay nothing at all. GM famously pays no taxes because their accounting department is that good.
Yes you are missing something...
The middle class was built and America turned into a economic super power during a time when we had 80% - 90% corporate taxes. The high taxes forced business to reinvest in their company, hire more people and expand their business to avoid paying those taxes. As the taxes on the corporations decreased they started pulling more and more money out of their businesses and creating less jobs. Then they turned to child labor in other countries when the costs of manufacturing those goods and shipping them back to the U.S became cheaper then just manufacturing them here.
I hope my explanation was clear enough. I'm no economist by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe some one could explain it better then i can.
yeah, your brain
The solution would be that everyone pays the same amount - say 10%. The rich would automatically have to pay more .........
The solution would be that everyone pays the same amount - say 10%. The rich would automatically have to pay more .........
yes 10% of $1,000,000 is more than 10% of $1000
hoot - if you don't like it, propose a better solution.
ok first of all make the fed transparent, stop the illegal inflation, get out of the war in the middle east take away the majority of the federal govt power bring it back to the states and local governments fuck obamacare universal health care should be stat or locally run...i certainly don't have the answers to all of our problems but i think were going to create more problems the way we are headed
So you agree that the system is messed up, and you want to propose changes. Good. So do the rest of the 99%. Keep your focus on that. We don't have time to waste criticizing each other. There's a much bigger enemy looming.
we need to critisize eachothers horrible ideas, asking the corporations to pay more taxes is a bad idea it will give them more power we need to realize that
Forget asking the corporations to pay more taxes, we need to restructure the way they're allowed to jump through loopholes to turn a profit at the expense of ill patients, or teachers, or the gulf coast, etc. etc. Just paying more taxes serves to validate the system that many in this movement agree is lacking, failing, and downright abusive of human rights as well as American ideals.
Educate yourself. You are an ignorant puppet. The media is framing this as class warfare, dummy.
the idea of the 99% versus the 1% frames this as class warfare...i agree with alot of what ows stands for but we should be taking a different platform
Feel free to start your own movement...the 'hoot' movement or whatever you want to call it. This isn't a marketing campaign anyway. Go build your own sign or your own slogan and share it with the world. I predict it would resonate with this crowd.
the whole point of this movement is that its supposed to present a platform for the average american to finally have a voice in the government, in terms of representation the ows movement does its voices injustice by dividing the 99% vs. the 1%, it demeans the cause to divide it so. it is about corruption and flaws in the government. hoot has a point as to this alienating the 1% tax bracket, who aren't all as super-rich as you might think. the people youre really after are more like the .01%., do you understand? but i do agree that this is not the most important issue, the whole idea of the 99% is the american people screaming WE NEED TO FINALLY HAVE A VOICE IN THE GOVERNMENT, we all understand the frustration of knowing who actually has the power in the government, we unfortunately cant do much in the way of lobbying. but many of the ideals of this movement seem to be advocating giving the government more powers of regulation and taxing the rich further, all we do is put more power in the corrupt systems we are trying to fix! we all agree that the common man needs a more active voice in the government but there are ways to do this! i would propose a 3rd primary party in the american democratic system, this 2 party system is flawed, with the left and the right refusing to cooperate and allow change to happen, continually trying to screw eachother at every turn. we need a powerful party that serves as a bridge between the left and the right and also serves as a platform for revolutionary ideas that can actually be enacted within the present system. i would like to propose that a legitimately powerful direction this movement could take is to garner support for this third party (third not in the sense of green party or independents, but legitimately THIRD) which i refer to as the Radical Moderate Party. Real change can be enacted within the democratic/capitalistic system without toppling it, you just need to work from within. elect a moderate president and you may find that there are people out there who can serve the general public good, and that good politics benefit in the absence of obligatory allegiance to the left or the right.
Yes and yes. More government = more corruption, etc. etc. What specific steps would you take to ensure that a third party candidate is provided entrance and financial support in the currrent election cycle?
this is one of the most difficult questions to answer in terms of enacting actual change. im not completely sure, http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-love-affair-of-money-and-politics/ but one of the difficulties of this movement is their fear of a leader, and i understand why they are apprehensive, the people have a lot of restraint to put the power of their movement into one mans hands, and i for one am afraid myself that it will end up in the hands of someone like steven lerner, who has done much for this movement but in my humble opinion also represents part of the problem in terms of leaning towards socialism. but at some point the movement will have to actually unite behind a representative or a few, because for a third party to be legitimized they would have to win the elections of a large portion of states and actually have a presence within the house/senate. financial support is a difficulty since that is part of the problem of corruption in our government today. i just hope that when the time comes the ows movement can actually agree on backing SOMETHING/someone, and i believe a vague moderate party allows as a vessel for true general good , essentailly my answer is "man power," political backing from a large portion of voters. the 99% that has been toted as being finally united could achieve this if their hearts were in it
maybe i will
I agree. But keep your focus on criticizing the people who have caused this mess. Not on the people trying to fix it. Spend more time pushing your solution than talking about why others' solutions are bad.
i don't mean to seem so negative its just i have been reading more and more stupis solutions that don't make sense and it seems everyone wants to tax the rich and to me that doesn't seem like a good solution also they haven't caused the problem the federal government has
The government and the big business owners are the same exact people. That is the problem. And we better find a way to separate the two the way it was designed to be quickly. Otherwise, people will stop trying to fix this system and want to start from scratch.
so lets take away the governments power not give them more money
You are missing everything. This is more about corruption, greed, and the destruction of not only our environment and resources, but our pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness. It's not exactly about "getting rich people to pay more," as much as it's about getting our government disentangled from the Corporation-Citizens that have become a ruling class. Through the last few decades, it's become glaringly obvious that we cannot endure this economic system as it is for much longer. We cannot endure a government that is supposed to rest on principle when it is hand-in-hand with entities that have NO SUCH OBLIGATION. Is that a little clearer now?
i understand and agree with that but it seems that alot of people on here think the solution is taxing the rich corporation ceos who are paying off the gov
That's not a solution I've heard put forward. I have heard that a possible solution is restructuring the system to ensure Corporations can no longer game the system and pickpocket the human citizens of America. I think you may be confused because part of the general OWS message states that 1% control a lot through exploitation of the environment and the rest of us... the 99%. However, it's clear that just taxing the rich wouldn't fix the problems inherent in our economic system, which has become our de facto political system with Pepsi on the left and Coke (or at least the Koch Brothers) on the right. That would merely be a redistribution of wealth from Corporate CEO's to politicians, something that happens regularly thanks to Super-PAC'S and 501(c)4's who, unlike Super Pac's, do not have to disclose anything about the unlimited funds they are allowed to receive. (Thanks Stephen Colbert for bringing that sad but unsurprising fact to light)
but if the govt didnt have power it wouldn't matter if corporations gave them all of their money the govt couldn't do anything
No one is saying that our government has no power. What we are saying is that the governments power, which is derived from 100% of us, has been hijacked by Corporation-Citizens through secret money and back room dealing. We are saying that our government only seems to exercise it's power to protect private financial interests of its Corporate-Citizens, often to the exclusion of its HUMAN citizens. Don't be fooled, the government indeed has much power. But it is power that has been wrapped in Corporate clothes... replete with a political party that protects its interest
i see your point and agree with you but i think both govt and corps are benefiting from the relationship and i'm much more fearful of my govt then corporations we need to stop our government
Heh, you should beware both! At least our government puts up a facade like we have a voice or a choice in their dirty dealings. Corporations, on the other hand, just flip the bird at 99% of us, knowing that they own enough of the resources that we will have no choice but to continue funding their Mafia-like behavior. Let the Government try to pull what AETNA pulls on a regular basis (trying to dis-enroll insurance customers who become ill or denying children with medical conditions insurance).
yes lets give the healthcare power to government so they can decide if we didnt buy products from corporations they would lose their money but if we give govt more money and leave it with its power they will do what is in their best interests
Beware of tangents, hoot. They're everywhere. That's a completely different discussion. I was merely comparing the outrageous PUBLIC activities of CORPORATION-CITIZENS to the PRIVATE outrageous activities of our GOVERNMENT. As our Economic Democracy now stands, neither the Corporation-Citizens or the Government should have any say in Healthcare, as they are both too busy stealing from EVERYONE to effectively run an iPad app, let alone a complex structure like the modern healthcare behemoth
hahaha sorry i misread your post i agree with you on that
No worries. These are impassioned times and, if our political figures and corporate "role-models" are any indication, mistakes and misreads will happen... often. ;) Be well
You're missing a ton. Please, lurk around, read posts, and for the love of mike keep away from the corp-backed news outlets like msnbc and fox.
check BBC, check RT, check things from the UK that have no vested interest in wall st, so that you get the whole truth.
i'm pointing out one contradiction in this movement..ows seems to be asking for the rich to pay more taxes http://occupywallst.org/forum/my-dad-the-1/ read the comments on that... i think its a little hypocritical to ask the people paying off the govt to pay taxes that go directly to the govt
It's not just about taxes. It's about how unfair it is that someone has to work three jobs to get by. It's about how the top 1% gets a lower tax rate than those who earn less. It's about the loopholes that they use to effectively pay only 14-15% on what they earn. It's about corporations cutting hours and cutting jobs in order to keep their own cushy bonuses. It's about INEQUALITY.
And I don't like the fact that shills like yourself are posting here with the intent of keeping America unequal, broken, and serving the rich.
they have a whole other tax to pay called capital gains do you pay a capital gains tax?
quit backtracking posts.
do you pay a capital gains tax? uyes they pay a lower rate in capital gains than you do in income taxes but if they also pay income taxes as well as capgains then dont they pay more than you?
do you pay a capital gains tax? uyes they pay a lower rate in capital gains than you do in income taxes but if they also pay income taxes as well as capgains then dont they pay more than you?
Problem is, sometimes they don't, moving funds around so that their income is only held to the lower capital gains tax, and not the higher normal income tax rate.
Congrats, you found a common loophole we're wanting closed.
can you provide evidence that they dont pay income taxes?
Can you provide evidence that they pay capital gains? :3 Better yet, relevancy?
in our justice system were are innocent until proven guilty again prove to me that they don't pay their income taxes or capital gains?
Justice system dosn't dictate internet arguments, buckweat. Capital gains was your argument, not mine. It's not my job to prove your point, it's your job to prove your own. And if you can't prove your own point....what are you doing trying to debate?
anyone with money in the stock market pays capital gains tax i have never seen any evidence to support the idea that the 1% don't pay their taxes infact they pay 39% of all federal taxes if you can give me evidence to proves that they dont pay their taxes then i will take back everything i have said until then i will continue to believe that the rich pay their taxes
12 Corporations Pay Effective Tax Rate of Negative 1.5% on $171 Billion in Profits; Reap $62.4 Billion in Tax Subsidies
http://www.ctj.org/pdf/12corps060111.pdf
You're welcome.
then we should be after those 12 companies not the 1%
This is getting funny as hell, I wish I could say you're trolling but sadly, I know people who use this kind of logic and selective justification.
Anywho, toodles, enjoy the echo chamber.
the 12 corporations are not all of the 1% they are only a small part of it
There will always be inequality because people have different levels of intelligence. Outcomes in life are more directly tied to this fact than to some unproven conspiracy theory. Read The Bell Curve and if you are honest with yourself you will have to admit what you observe about people matches the research detailed in the book.
they pay a cap gains tax as well as income you and me only pay income...i'm not saying they are good people who dont deserve to be punished but having them pay more taxes to the govt gives them a bigger say in the govt
Pay more taxes? You do realize most corporations not only paid no taxes, but some, like GE, got a refund of $3.2 BILLION?
So, they only only pay less, but they take money out of the pocket of the country.
yea government shouldn't be bailing anyone out i'm not disagreeing with that but if corporations pay more taxes they will have more power taxation gives you representation
Taxation does not give you representation, population does. Read up on the census, it may help.
And corporations are not people so what representation would they need?
yes but they are treated like people and pay off the government to get what they want right?
Which is one of the things wrong with this world.
yup, you're missing a lot
i understand that were asking for more than that but its seems as though big issue is having the top 1% pay more
and putting the thieves in jail!
Yes, we should re-instate the marginal tax to keep the few from amassing all of the wealth and power to buy our government. And we should get money out of politics.
but money is involved in politics via taxes
Yes, not paying taxes. Here is a chart that shows what happens when you have 30 years of tax cuts for the wealth -- the ever disappearing marginal tax rate.
http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4#the-gap-between-the-top-1-and-everyone-else-hasnt-been-this-bad-since-the-roaring-twenties-1
you want the wealthy to give more taxes(money) to the government so they have less power over the government?
Yes, the government taking taxes actually shows that they do not have power over the government. The more power they have, the less taxes they pay.
No... that is definitely not a part of what I would be demanding. That's ridiculous. Have you even read most of the posts here?
yes they're asking the 1% to pay more
I have not seen one post that was all about taxing the 1%. Links please?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/suggested-goals/ i'll find some more
read the comments on this post http://occupywallst.org/forum/my-dad-the-1/ alot of people are asking for him to pay more
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/us/politics/obama-tax-plan-would-ask-more-of-millionaires.html?pagewanted=all
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-goal-fairness-for-all/
asking for buffet rule?
do you want more links?
you are all misinformed and conceded...the 1% already pay the majority of the taxes collected by the government. the rich have earned their money and many already give much of it away. Taking money from the rich will not fix the current disparity. Maybe if everyone protesting was at work instead of on wall street you would have more money!we are going towards a european socialism system and then our country will truely fail.
I challenge you to find a way to create fair-waged jobs for everyone that is at these protests. I guarantee if you do, no one else will be left to protest. That is the problem. There are not enough jobs available. Corporations are sitting on their money and are not hiring. When you only have 10 winter coats for 100 people, 90 will freeze.
the point of our system is not equal outcomes, its equal opportunity. Its a competition for jobs. not everyone is guaranteed a job, but everyone has the chance to get a job. i know people who have applied to dozens of places until they finally found a job. Its not easy, but its not impossible. Sometimes you just have to lower your standards, live within your means, and push through a rough patch to get to a better situation. Its not going to be given to you on a silver platter you got to work for it.
Dozens of places? I am guessing you haven't applied for a job in quite some time. It's a different market out there than it was 5, 10, 20 years ago.
Try applying to over 1,000 places. And going down to offices in person and getting thrown out by security for not being authorized to be in the building. And meeting with recruiters. And handing out flyers on the street in 3 different cities telling people you will give them 10% of your first years' salary for a referral. And putting ads on craigslist saying the same. And considering putting your face on a billboard to get a job but not being able to afford it. All the while, having an advanced degree in civil engineering and tons of debt to pay off. And lose your house and health insurance. And have this go on every single day for over a year. If you've got any better ideas to find a decent paying wage, I am all ears. And so is the rest of the 99%. But right now the jobs aren't there. They don't exist. Corporations are sitting on their money and not hiring anyone. While making record profits.
People are human. They try harder than you think they do when backed into a corner. When it happens to someone else you tell them to stop being lazy. When it happens to you, and you give it everything you have, and still aren't getting any results, you realize that the system is broken. And it needs to be fixed. People who are saddled with school debt can't afford to survive off $12/hour at Starbucks.
You can sit on your high horse all you want. But if your children had nothing to eat, you would do whatever it takes to get them fed. And if a government became as corrupt as ours currently is, those are the people you would be protesting against.
all fair points. i have heard that the protesters are getting paid around $22/hour? and i am not saying our government isnt corrupt, wall street just isnt who we should be protesting.
Who told you protesters get paid $22/hour? That's propaganda man. No one I have met has gotten a dime out of this. We're all out there risking being pepper sprayed, beaten and arrested because we refuse to accept the corruption that is going on. If someone wealthy enough who truly supported this cause was willing to pay all the protesters in all 150+ cities $22/hour, we would have enough jobs to end poverty and there would be no protests.
And the politicians are just puppets. They don't have the power. Big business is what controls them. That's who funds their election campaigns, and that's who the laws are made to benefit. That is why people are protesting against them.