Forum Post: Student debt was a CHOICE!
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 23, 2011, 3:55 p.m. EST by Greentara
(205)
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I borrowed for grad school in a field which enabled me to pay it off in 4 years. A college/grad student should know the financial ablations of borrowing,
I know young people who chose not to go to school because of how extraordinarily expensive it is now. I started hearing this about five years ago, I argued and told them they were just unmotivated, then I heard stories from friends about how it cost six figures to get a four year degree from a mediocre school. I realized they were right.
Some people are not "mad" because they are in debt, they are "mad" because of the limited opportunities this country is offering to this generation of young people.
Colleges get these huge endowments. It's just a crime.
They do this to keep most of out of college, because learned people are dangerous for the state.
Concur! Well said.
Also it should always be the job of the person or entity giving the loan to explain fully the loan to someone who is unaware of the jargin and the structure of said document.
I am a full time student, and I have grants and loans and am fully aware of the structure. I will be pissed if jobs are short, luckily I am a computer engineer so shouldn't be too hard.
Or even better maybe better education for juniors and seniors in High School about the job market, colleges, student loans, career paths etc....set our kids up for success....
Whatever happened to that whole guidance counselor thing I always heard about? Do they still exist? I graduated in 98 and don't think I ever met one, well maybe once but that was just for switching a class or something...
lol I have never met one either, though at my college they do exist but are very much like dealing with the DMV.
Yes, you are touching on another big problem as I see it - the trade schools & community colleges which also qualify for the govt guaranteed loans subject prospective students to high pressure sales tactics during which they exaggerate the availability of jobs & the student's potential earning power while they minimize the fact that the loan has to be paid back and how affordable that will be.
Yes very much true. Also the amount of schools which are not truly colleges like Devry and others who do high pressure sales and offer degrees of little value and eat up government grants and the students funds and credit.
Community schools here are great, you can go for free and get books for free and end up with a little extra money.
It is the online schools that are terrible.
Where are these free schools? Community colleges cost money. What schools are you talking about?
jobcorps
http://www.jobcorps.gov/home.aspx
Sorry when I say free I mean the socialist programs presented by the government that allow people to go to school by giving them grants which cover classes, books and leave some left over for other expenses. The great thing is that for people like me who were... a little wild in HS this allows transfer to any University (costs more and requires loans as opposed to just the grants)
Hope this helps Mr. Bear
Don't be too smug! I know a number of IT men out of work right now. Guess what? Your field is part of the current outsourcing boon!
I am not in IT, nor smug simply lucky in my choice. I am also lucky to have natural aptitude for graphic design, animation and computer science.
I merely meant to say that the careers are so limited now that engineering (not my first choice but close) consists of the top out of college jobs.
Teachers are my hero's.
It is true that the current system of higher ed schooling is broken, but if you borrowed to go to school, you have an obligation to pay it back.
Well it sounds like people are pissed off because it's hard to get rich. As in hey I borrowed $200k to goto xzy bigtime school, now I want my $125k job with 2-10x that in bonus
Here's the problem and I can't make it any clearer. My younger brother graduated from Cornell University in 1985. Without any financial support from my parents his debt was $10,000. That was a lot of money back then but the job market provided an opportunity to pay off this debt. Also, that $10,000 debt was affordable for someone who grew up in the middle class who had the desire and drive to want to further educate himself. Unfortunately, education is now big business and even the top administrators in the SUNY system are living the dream and receiving hefty pay and benefits packages. Anyone who has the desire to learn should have the ability to afford a quality higher education. I'm not talking about what could be done. I'm talking about was already was done. It disappeared.
Exactly right, and exactly the points I've been making.
As I said below, state college I attended has doubled tuition in the past six years. It costs 50K for four years and that is just tuition & fees. Not included: dorm, meal plan, transportation expenses, books, etc.
Dorm expenses in the SUNY system are higher than tuition. I remember that my brother took some courses in a community college during his summer break and transferred them to Cornell to save money. Affordable education is not what is motivating Administrators.
You are listening to the wrong people.
I don't feel you should disregard your choices in life
Really that's not a smart move. One should course correct, it the intelligent thing to do.
Mmm no, it's not about "getting rich" it is just about being able to live a decent middle class life like their parents had growing up.
Like I said, reduced opportunities.
"Getting rich" is usually a fluke, either that or you inherit wealth, most honest "rich" people will tell you that.
Well sounds like you don't want to have to struggle to get nicer things. Either give up the attachment to material things or enjoy the struggle. Nobody, not Jesus or buddah said life was easy or fair
You're very close minded. It isn't really a matter of "nicer things", you continuously frame my comments in your own value system.
It's a matter of being able to provide for daily needs, things that are considered necessary in the society we've grown up in.
On the East Coast here, it is a matter of being able to earn enough to be independent and afford an apartment or not having enough to do that and having to live with ones parents or a bunch of roomates.
EIther we remain a first world country that is able to offer opportunity to all its citizens or we slide into third world status, where a few have everything and the rest have next to nothing.
In addition, education is valuable in itself regardless of what kind of income opportunities it might provide, without educational opportunities being widely available to all, we become a nation of fools, which is already happening.
I'm working a 32K/yr entry level job and living in New York with two roommates. I never expected to have my own place right out of college. One of my roommates has the same job and is paying off college debt at the same time, and I don't hear any complaints from him, either. Since when is having your own apartment a basic need?
Also, I know there's still debt, but there are so many good state/public universities. No one has to go into massive, six-figure debt to get a decent college degree, and most people I knew (myself included) worked throughout college to lift some of the cost burden. I don't think I necessarily deserve whatever my parents had (though they worked to give it to me, by making their own financial sacrifices).
I think the bottom line is that systems don't care about people. Neither capitalism nor socialism, neither a democracy nor a republic. Ultimately we're all responsible for ourselves.
I attended a state college and I commuted.
The tuition at that college has doubled in the past six years.
Four years of tuition & fees at 2011 rates will cost you 50K.
Ok, so it is not six figures, it is half that. But still.
Unless a student has parents who were able to provide them with a college fund, 50K is not really affordable without loans for most students from the working class.
Yes, I agree that we are all responsible for ourselves.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't ask our institutions to serve us better.
Systems don't "care" but we are supposed to have government of the people, by the people, for the people.
The systems exist to serve the people, we don't exist to serve the system and we shouldn't have to struggle along silently in our own little islands and accept less and less while others profit from our hard work.
I do think the higher education bubble needs to burst. It also doesn't make sense that a four year degree is required for such basic jobs, but it is.
I also think, though, that the people need to stop being willing to fork over money. They shouldn't wait for some higher power to step in and declare that tuition is too high and job requirements overly demanding.
How About the cost of textbooks? How crazy expensive are they? I wonder how much the people who write them make off them (a lot of work to do) as compared to the publisher (less work) and schools (no work).
Ha. I work for a publisher (of textbooks and academic monographs), and let me tell you, neither our authors nor we make much money. No one goes into academic publishing for the money. Executive editors make something like $80,000 annually at my company, and that's after 20+ years in the industry. My starting salary gave me a weekly income that is less than what you get in weekly unemployment benefits in New York.
We price the books as low as we can - we want to sell the damn things, after all - but it does cost something to review them, acquire them, copyedit them, typeset them, proof them, design a cover, market and publicize them, print them/adapt them for ereaders, etc., plus pay the author's royalties. We're in competition with other publishers, which can drive up the royalties/advance. Textbooks are crazy expensive - there's no denying it - but everyone I know in the industry works pretty long hours for a pittance. I think we put as much work in as our authors, easily (though it varies case by case, of course), and I've never met anyone more difficult to work with in my life than academics.
How very true, and it sucks that those who do what they enjoy sometimes get the short end of the stick. Yourself, educators, scientists!
Btw, thanks for your work and your generous answer. Best to you!
So the schools are the ones setting cost to the students? Anyone know what their profit is? Some of my books cost more than my classes...
LOL books can be absurdly expensive. Biology was like $190.00 for the book.
Schools set costs.
Honestly, I don't know. I would advise not buying them through your school, though. Amazon is generally your best bet - someday, I think they're going to control the whole industry. If your professors are assigning their own books to you, then hopefully they're using the author discount they probably get to lower the price for you. If they're not, shame on them!
I'm sorry it's so expensive - I've been there! Though I will tell you that many brilliant scholars can't write coherently to save their lives, so they do need editors. I wondered why academics weren't bypassing publishers and just sharing their work with each other for free (since they're hardly making any money anyway) until I started reading their unedited manuscripts. The total disregard for proper grammar, spelling, or even coherent overall organization from people with PhDs is appalling. But I digress...
Yes! That conversation needs to happen. Maybe OWS is helping raise awareness.
I don't think people "deserve" loan forgiveness for getting in over their heads and mass loan forgiveness is just not realistic or doable, anyway.
People do need to stop buying in to the "dream" without analyzing the costs and gaining awareness is the first step.
I personally would have never taken out so much in loans & like I said in my first post, people I'm close to have just decided not to buy in rather than get strapped to a mountain of debt.
Loan extensions and lower interest, they should allow verifiable hardship.
I am going to school for free on government grants, but since my transfer to continue my degree I am incurring debt but that is not an issue.
The issue is simply that as a people and a society and species we have the ability (and responsibility) to help, just be ok with helping stop being so angry and selfish. Life is tough, let's make it easier?
You seem entitled to me. You want to live on the East Coast with no roomates. My grandmother would have called you spoiled and she lived through the Great Depression
Cut people off from opportunity and they take to the streets.
Exactly what happened in the 1930s and exactly what you see happening now.
You can judge and cast character aspersions as much as you want, but human nature is what it is.
Oppressed people will rebel. Yes, people here aren't "oppressed" or as poor as others around the world are (yet) but fact remains, we have a certain standard of living here and more & more people are not able to meet that standard.
And they are beginning to rebel.
Elitist! How dare you expect a standard of living! (SARCASM)
I agree completely. It seems if people struggle they seem to become very bitter which leads them to belittle those who are struggling, it makes no sense but it is the case. Look at the poor south.
Most not oppressed IMO, some are entitled, others listened to irresponsible parents who told them that if they went to college jobs would be waiting AND some were gullible enough to believe that
I'm sure that Buddah or Jesus would agree with the current financial system, too.
Yeah right!
Jesus did help the poor! Read a book.
There is no need with our brilliance as a people to create a system of struggle and strife simple to enjoy said struggle.
Let us all enjoy humanity succeeding and children ALL being brought up happily and comfortably, should they enjoy your struggle?
Aha! So you agree our system is not fair.
How do we expect to get people educated to do the lower paying jobs that require a degree, if the degree costs more than that job will ever pay? I'm talking teachers, social workers, etc. These are important jobs but do not pay enough compared to the price to get them. Do we just eliminate all of these important workers, or allow them to continue to struggle? And by struggle I mean barely making their rent/mortgage payments. Many are unable to even afford "material things." Or a better life.
Again who said that just making rent/mortgage is bad? Public school teachers get paid about $3mm over their lifetime (get paid for life don't forget)
You really think it's okay for someone who cares for, nurtures, and educates our nation's children to struggle financially, while the people who cut your hair, paint your nails, or (especially) runs a giant corporation that controls our country by throwing money at our politicians, make enough to live a life of luxury?
I don't think the people who cut my hair or do my nails are making exorbitant amounts of money...who do you know who is? Maybe I'm in the wrong industry :)
Also, I think there are some serious problems with our educational system, but they aren't teachers' salaries... http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/08/31/090831fa_fact_brill
Well I am against bribing our politicians and rich should pay taxes (the top 1% already pay 40% or so....I'm talking tax cheats) but nobody (not even you) can make choices for a person
Ending the corruption of government is a choice too!
Picking on unemployed college grads is a choice too. But not a good one.
The first is a good choice. The second sounds thin skinned
I chose to believe in "go to school, get good grades, then you'll get a good job, and you'll be able to retire at age 65." It is becoming clearer that we ourselves must become the solution we are looking for. After awhile, when something promised is refused to be given, then it's time to CREATE what you want for yourself. Create what you want for yourself (job, opportunity, education, etc.).
True. And nobody promised that life, we aspired for that and somehow the goal became the minimum acceptable
I don't have any student debt,. what are you on about?
Neither do I. But posters say because banks got loans forgiven, students should. As if two wrongs make a right
Banks did not get "loans forgiven" they where given vast sums of free cash,. that was borrowed by the gov. from the same bankers,. the debt AND the interest is now on the books as part of the national debt! Not only did the banks get the free money (to inject liquidity?) they also get to collect interest on the gov. loan, compounded for likely the rest of our natural lives,. .
also; "Ablation is removal of material from the surface of an object by vaporization, chipping, or other erosive processes." Not sure you are using the word you thought in your OP.
Most banks have already paid back what they received in TARP with INTEREST. And the source of money was not borrowed from the same bankers. It came from bond investors. However much you want to paint wall street bankers to be evil, greedy monsters, they differ from you in one important case. They paid the lender back all the money they borrowed. You and others in this forum borrowed money and never want to paid the government back so us tax payers are on the hook. Who is the villain?
yeah right,. voodoo accounting aside, the bailouts, (plural. there was more than just TARP), .have driven up the national debt. It is the offloading of bad loans and broken financial instruments onto the people,. a transfer of the losses to the public, while they the banksters take all the profits and keep them privately,. .
The villains clearly are the corporate bankers, and the regulators and politicians that feed their corruption through bribery.
search; "Money as Debt" and watch the video you find,. to get a better understanding of how the banking system is a pyramid scam at the most basic levels,. the system itself is designed to move wealth form the many to the few., this will not stop with our revolutionary reforms,. or a complete redesign of the monetary system. peace.
Just so you know, when a bank makes money, it's not only the executives who make money, okay? Many of these banks employee many workers who get paid a salary to work there. They don't get paid like the executives but they have a job. Also, many of these banks are public companies and the more successful they are, the more wealth they distribute to shareholders. If you are a government worker, you benefit from the fact that pension funds invests in these companies. Do you really think the average person bought CDO and other mortgage backed securities? No, these are sophisticated products sold primarily to the 1%. They were the ones who were financially affected by the loss of value in these securities. Yes, they probably still live comfortably but it still does not change the fact that they were directly affected by the loss in value in those securities. The other 99% were affected by the failure of the 99% to meet their financial obligations to pay their mortgages. As far as I know, ppl don't put a gun to ppl's head to sign a mortgage loan.
In what world do you live? "Do you really think the average person bought CDO and other mortgage backed securities?" YES their pension funds did! and they are still losing money., much of the losses where simply taken over by the government (bailouts and other shady deals),. and now we the taxpayers get to pay back the lost bets the bankers made. over many years and with compounded interest paied back to the same bankers who caused this,. . search; "Money as Debt" and watch the video! obviously you did not.
Privatised profits, socialised losses. The reason people are rightfully angry. The table is tilted the game is rigged.
Yes, and who were the beneficiaries of wall street success in all those years when the economy was robust and everything was going well? I supposed they weren't complaining then as they do now. Hypocrites. BTW, watch the Money as Debt again. The reason why banks leverage their assets is to provide liquidity. Yes, look up liquidity and get a better understanding of it before you critisize banks for providing a vehicle to make this entire economy work. Imagine how the world would work if we had to buy and sell things using a precious metal like gold. Liquidity provided by banks is what made this whole economy work. Liquidity by means of a loan is what made your parents able to buy a home when you grew up. Liquidity is what allowed the manufacturing companies to produce the clothes you wear, the food you eat. Liquidity is what allows you not to have to walk miles to go from one place to another. Obviously, you learned absolutely nothing watching that Money as Debt video. It's amazing that even to this day, you don't blame folks who defaulted on their loans for the problems they caused today. If I were the CEO of a bank and were criticized for leveraging deposits in my bank, I would just stop loaning money to anyone. No home loans, no auto loans, no loans to businesses. I just hold the money folks deposited in my bank. But hey, why would I stay in business if I can't make a profit? Heck, I'll just return the money back to the customer and close down the business and fire all my employees. I'll ask all my other banker friends to do the same. Is this the world you are envisioning?
yes! please follow that course of action!!!! only you are not a banker,. if you where, you would (perhaps) understand the meaning of the word you just abused,. liquidity is not loans not baked by assets, (cash). Liquidity is any asset that can be bought and sold easily without affecting the asset's price. it need not be money at all,. gold and silver would work fine,. as would bitcoins or some other crypto-currency. The corrupt bankers ability to loan 20 times the money they actually have,. is not a good thing,. (well only to them!) Think about it, if you could lend me money you don't actually have,. would you not be in the 1%? if you profited from loaning this money,. compounded the interest and added fees for every little thing,. then you would be just like the corrupted sick bankers we have today,.
I suggest to people to put their money in regenerating you local environment., slowmoney.org
Hmmm...could be auto fill on ablation.....so not sure as can't find the post. And ITA banks got off easy with the "financial collapse" excuse (Paulson was at Treasury and didn't want to face his friends if all the bank equity was eliminated butni bet he felt the markets would fix themselves if the govt gave them time...another fallacy) BTW Paulson sold his stock TAX FREE.....hmmmmmm
ablations?
College lending is more screwed up than home lending was 10 years ago. We tell young people "you're screwed if you don't go to college... but you're screwed if you borrow for college." WTF kind of choice is that for an 18 yo kid?
It's never about the kids. Kids have historically been used to push the agendas of other cohorts.
Once again, we have sold out our most vulnerable and precious commodity in the name of greed; our children.
And we claim to be a family-friendly country.
Yeah, choose between no college and no real job future, and college with half a lifetime of debt. Great choices.
Seems you are narrow minded. Go to college and hustle for a job. Or don't go and hustle to earn a living. Either way hard work. You sound entitled to me and thus are afraid or have never had to "work"
I agree, its a hustle. Hustle in a higher income bracket with college, hustle in a lower income bracket with none. I sound entitled? Please tell that to everybody that I hustle with everyday to try and support a family.
Same hers but my parents said life is not fair do deal with it
In the midst of struggling to make it day to day, I am contributing as much time as I can to removing parasites who make it that much harder for me and the rest of the country to do that. So yes, I am dealing with it and choosing not to hide my head in the sand.
Amen and I feel it will work out well for you. Sadly too few people have your attitude
Went to a college that boasted lowest tuition in the country. 2 student loans in 4 years + a $345.00 per month GI Bill. Got the loan paid off okay as I got a decent middle class job. We all know, even if we don't admit it, some folks have a hard time after college. My friend washed dishes until he could get a job in his field. This was in 1990. Why not END FOREIGN AID and give the universities grants to cover low income folks and also for maintenance & improvement of their educational system? Why support folks in Pakistan when you can help out a fellow American?
Good for you and TOTALLY agree the govt spending priorities are wrong!
Right on! America does have good, intelligent young men and women who staring a $40,000.00 debt in face after graduation, and in this economy, are afraid to chance it. We just handed Libya 11 million dollars. For what - more guns? We pay Pakistan, who stabbed us in the back, millions. Let's put that money in to educational structure and get some of our bright HS grads in to college.
Absolutely. And the biggest chunk we spend is keeping people alive for the last year of their life. Most other societies don't have that same attachment. Frees up a lot of $
Most other INDUSTRIALIZED nations do, yes.
Well, I' 67 this month - do hope you can give me a few more years to enjoy my retirement. :) But I agree - I don't want to lay around in a hospital dying of one thing or another. I want go out sitting under the big Oak tree with a glass of whyskey in 1 hand and a ceegar in the other. Be a lot less fuss and bother if folks planned it out. Hospitals keep you alive long enough to bleed every $ out of you, healthcare & medicare.
Circumstances are different now: costs are SUPER inflated, jobs are scarce, and the loan terms (interest, cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, collectors' rights) are draconian.
Student loan amnesty is an absolutely must because of the above.
Irresponsible! Just because circumstances change for the worst, you don't pay?? How about when jobs are available and paying well you owe 2x to pay for the loans which were not paid back before? Sounds fair to me
Are you talking about the banks when the derivatives---though fully insured---were priced worthless so then Tim Geithner paid 100 percent to the banks on the dollar for them AND paid the insurers 100 percent on the dollar?
Bank loans and student loans different. Banks should have not been bailed out IMO. We had deposit insurance (which we didn't have in 1930) so most people could use their ATM's
Deposit insurance paid by depositors. You people---and I mean "you people" in a non-derogatory way---are always attacking fellow Americans when they seek relief but are silent when the 1% get preferential tax treatment, avoid paying taxes on billions in profits (see, e.g., GE), and so on and so forth.
If you would use that energy to seek Justice and Equity for regular people, then we would have a better country.
I blame you. Not trying to be offensive or single you out. But it is people like you who "enable" the 1% by attacking the 99% and seeking ways to "reform" our cherished institution for the benefit of the 1%.
As my post states, it is not the 1% that is the problem, it is a sizable portion of the 99% that enables the 1%.
We can undermine the 1% by refusing to vote for the candidate in each election who has gotten the most WS/1% money.
A few election losses, and the importance of voters would increase to politicians, compared to the big money donors.
Vote "away from Wall Street".
Tea party has influenced elections but no policy change.
I think that is a ruse. It is why we need a list of demands and see the existing elite structure implement it.
One of the central issues for me is reducing (ideally, eliminating) the stranglehold of money on politics. Since I think that most of the demands I've seen on that force us onto the playing field that the 1% has designed, I'd like to see a different approach.
Punish cozying up to greed by using the ballot box and that would produce useful leverage to use on this and other issues.
The problem is that money always seems to find its way into politics.
Try out informed direct democracy?
Check it- http://govtogether.com/
Good points about GE (so my answer is change the tax code) and the point that the 1% have duped enough of the 99 to make them feel like thet can be a 1% is a stretch
Our kids have done everything they have been told to do by parents and society and when these things turn out to be lies, you blame them.
Sounds like the inability to accept responsibility
Sounds like exactly the same thing from wall street.
So true....traders at banks were heads I get paid a lot, tails the tax payer picks up the losses
I didn't go to college because it was to expensive. I joined the Navy... served six years and got out. Now I'm earning in the top 5% and while I feel for folks who are in trouble; I find it offensive that there are so many who think they have a right to my rewards with out any consideration of the sacrifices that I've made.
"Ablations' as in amputations???
The thing with student debt is that private loans will charge whatever they feel the market rate is, regardless of how much money you make. My husband's monthly payments right out of college EXCEEDED his monthly income (he works in non-profit). Citi wouldn't grant a deferment and he's slowly catching up. Your account can be up-to-date, in late payment (with 4 phone calls a day to remind you), or in default. There needs to be more options to pay back the private loans in a way that still leaves the borrower with enough money to eat. Then worry about long term goals: eliminate interest or fix it at a low rate (.5%) on all loans, lower cost of college
Well don't borrow so much then work for low wages (assuming the non profit doesn't pay much). Maybe state school?
I agree, much of this countries decline is due to all the factors being stated to include people making the choice to spend instead of pay. That goes from one holiday to the next, from one bill to another. I say people boycott retailers this holiday season and give from scratch. Learn to use your hands, knit, sew, bake, recycle you money buy used books etc. Goodnight everyone! God bless you! Keep fighting the good fight Keep it righteous! Keep it peaceful, Don’t keep it secret! Oh yes,… love the drummers! Embrace not disgrace!
I graduated over 20 years ago. my college. Since then my college is over 12 times more expensive than when i went and they closed down half of their departments. They closed an entire engineering department. The one area that would actually help people get good jobs. Whats the choice, either follow your dream and go into debt, or give up on your dream because you are in the wrong financial bracket. You can't become a doctor on good intentions and good credit. Do people think that is just a coincidence that the majority of dr.'s in america are white males?
Sure, anyone taking on debt should understand it and realize they have an obligation to pay it back. But that's rather besides the point. Inflation of education costs has been absolutely insane over the last 30 years, far outstripping the baseline inflation rate. I don't understand why this is the case since for the most part publishers and those in academia are not driving a Lexus and eating caviar for lunch everyday. And at this point the costs are having real negative social and competitive impacts in our society.
I was a good student in the late eighties, got into a good private college (Macalester) and my parents had absolutely no money. My grades got my tuition reduced around 30% free and clear, the rest was all loans that I spent a long hard time paying. Overall it was definitely worth it. Today, however, I know for a fact my range of choices in the same circumstances would be MUCH more limited, and I don't feel that's fair to younger people today.
Well the government backed student loans (just like Fannie Mae for housing) coincidence?
Well maybe you didn´t see the full picture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQT2K75auuU&feature=share
Thanks
Just like GREED is CHOICE!
I guess you're not OK with kids seeking equity and fairness, but are OK with greed?
Glad you're doing well. Be careful how you tread on your ascent, as you will see the same faces on the way back down...
Facing a failing economy, corporations moving their manufacturing overseas graduates having to wash dishes just to survive and a majority who feel no compassion what may an under priveledged student do. The question remains: To Go or Not to Go. Many of our hospitals today contract with Registered Nurses to pay off students loans. What could be wrong with other corporations doing this? Ooooops you say - too greedy perhaps?
Well isn't wanting others to pay for your education also greedy?
We would pay them back, in full, if we had jobs. Trust me.
I know that I would.
Well it seems many posters want "the job they deserve" rather than being humble and take any job. Some jobs are just work, others jobs are careers
That's great. Wonderful.
Most posts I've seen from college graduates have been "How do I pay off my loan if I can't get a job".
AND, wouldn't it be nice if college was free to those who maintained high grades? People who get degrees generally make more money. They end up paying more taxes.
AND, how much was your student loan? When did you graduate? What were your circumstances?
Yes, people should be able to afford a good education. Let us start there.. emphasis on 'good' education. Then lets spend a moment on career choices and direction. To quote RHPS, take a jump to the left.. How many people in the past seven years opted to go to school because they could not find employment? How many of those people were herded from one dry pasture to another? Meaning, unable to find employment, go to school, have career plan mapped out by guidance counselor that directs one in a dead end career course that generates funding for school instead of qualifying a student towards gainful employment. That was one long winding road. I personally know several people that owe over thirty thousand in school loans for a degree that got them ready to work at … coughs if they are lucky, flipping burgers. They went from pasturing with the cows to frying them up for the person at the counter that pulled up in a Lincoln that does what for a living, street pharmaceuticals! Right! Example: Someone I know initially had it in mind that she would become a psychologist. That’s great except that she has a history of domestic violence of which she did inform her counselor who told her, “Not a problem.” Right! About six months into her new career plan she had to shift to art major. Someone finally set her straight on the whole domestic violence issue, imagine that. If it happened to her how many others? Six months of absolutely nothing, short term effective for the college cause she filled a seat but in the long run a major contributing factor for the financial fallout. So there are many factors involved on an individual level.
No matter how you look at it or how eloquently you say it, money is always poison and poison is always death. Most people are over extended financially not just because they are not getting paid enough. But also because they have made a conscious choice to mismanage their income and credit. Second example: A friend of mine inherited her land and home outright, she got married and began to take out loans using her property as collateral. Long story short and we all know the end, her husband had an affair they got divorced she lost her property and hofuckinghum decided to go back to school.
No more examples, no more words, just a whole lotta love for everyone everywhere standing up and being a part of the roar that is waking up the world! Keep fighting the good fight! Keep it righteous! Keep it peaceful! Keep it loud! Don’t keep it secret! Gods blessings to one & all! Remember! The world is watching & God knows who you are!
My son went to RPI and got $120k in debt. However, he chose a field that paid well enough so it won't be a problem. If you went into 6 figure debt to get a degree in horticulture or women's studies, you perhaps should have done some research into those job prospects.
Some people have a calling to serve society in a capacity that is undervalued. I have seen jobs that require a masters or PhD with starting salaries in the high 20's. Notably, these are government jobs, and corporate care jobs, like social worker, psychologist. Isn't it sad that caring for people is less valued than designing a pair of sneakers? Not everyone is motivated by a big paycheck.
Student debt is a choice but college tuition is not. Maybe we could meet halfway instead of putting every doctor 100k in debt before he/she has entered the real world.
almost the entire student loan market is loans 100% backed by the government and not possible to discharge even in bankruptcy. the bank can lend out money recklessly and not care because of the guarantee - essentially it's like a bank that lends out money stupidly every day, and gets bailed out every day. if you don't understand that this is a problem, and has upped the cost of school dramatically, then you need to get a clue.
Of course it's a problem. The govt should not be backing the loans. With that would come tight lending standards. But no matter what if you borrow you should pay it back
society did away with that idea long ago, which is why the US has amongst the best bankruptcy systems in the world.
Imagine an economic system where banks don't exist because they aren't needed, where good jobs are always plentiful, where everyone has healthcare, where our indigent are cared for, where the natural environment is protected, where good education is available to all, where the people truly steward their own lives . Can such an economic system exist? YES! read "thekingofnewjersey" available on Nook for inspiration. Any profit from this Nook Book is donated to the OWS movement. Send any comments to thekingofnewjersey.steve@gmail.com
Imagine an economic system where banks don't exist because they aren't needed, where good jobs are always plentiful, where everyone has healthcare, where our indigent are cared for, where the natural environment is protected, where good education is available to all, where the people truly steward their own lives . Can such an economic system exist? YES! read "thekingofnewjersey" available on Nook for inspiration. Any profit from this Nook Book is donated to the OWS movement. Send any comments to thekingofnewjersey.steve@gmail.com
I can imagine that. However the world is not like that. Accept reality!
they were told that if they spent 4 years of there life in college- and borrowed for it. upon graduation there would be a job waiting for them.
Irresponsible of the people who told them that. Gullible in believing that. You stil sound entitled to me
These students were not 'Gullible'. It is not irresponsible to borrow $50K for a college degree. That is what is costs, if not double that. I am in my 40's. I am not a person that feels 'entitled'.
The private student loan lenders are corrupt. I have private loans -which I showed to an accountant. He said there are $3,000 worth of phantom fees on my account- not to mention $10K of interest.
I feel so sorry for the younger people coming out of college these days. They are suffering from underemployment due to the current market conditions. Their debt is rising due to the interest- this is because of the economy. They are not looking for handouts.
They should at least be able to release private loans.
There is no reason why only the very rich can go to college.
The Ivies now waive tuition for those with HHI under 60k or so depending on the school and reduced tuition up to around $160k.
Wow, that's cheap. Rolls eyes.
College should be either cheap or free.
It's cheap as it's free for poor people and state school is cheap. So what's you issue? You want Ivy education for free despite the fact that your parents make too much money to qualify for the reduced/free rate?
I'm not talking about the ivies. USC in California charges some ungodly sum a year.
Because USC is private! (not only are you entitled but uninformed) CAL schools are about $5k/year
20 grand for 4 years is a bunch of money. Few people can afford that.
They need to get rid of California's idiotic tax laws where you can't even raise taxes without 2/3 of legislature.
Not for me, it was the only way in.
How can you say that when every high school promotes going to college as the thing to do and that you are less of a person if you don't go. This is the problem with the education system we have in place now. Also most colleges get large subsidies from the government through grants. Which this has raised the cost of college to the levels that we see along with inflation.
There's truth in what you say but it is not even a matter of being less of a person, it is a matter of college credits now being required for a variety of jobs that were once considerd "blue collar" or "pink collar".
Police officers, corrections officers, secretaries, receptionists, you may find college credit requirements for these types of jobs, or you'll be competing with others who have credits/degrees/certificates and not having them will limit your ability to find work.
Well sounds like you need others to reaffirm you own self worth. If you had confidence in yourself you would not listen to such people. Agree the system was flooded with basically government subsidezed money. But look at the increased ratio of administrators to professors (same with k-12) and look salaries of college presidents/fundraisers
So you like paying for knowledge? How much would they have to start charging before you decide it's just not worth it?
Well that choice each of us has to make. Depends on many factors. The people who are upset about borrowing for school sound very greedy to me.
I just think knowledge should be a basic human right. There should be no barriers between a person that wants to learn and the knowledge they seek, financial or otherwise.
I got a simple idea for this; The better your grades, the lower the costs.
This way, people who are just there to fuck off have to pay and people that are there to learn can do so without worry.
Please explain your point a little more - how do they sound greedy?
I agree. There shouldn't be any barriers between a person that wants to learn, financial or otherwise.
Knowledge is free. You don't have to pay to join your public library. You can buy used books online for peanuts. Anybody who really wants to learn can.
True. I think the sticking point here is you can't interview for a job with a library card for credentials. So really what they charge for is the piece of paper confirming that you have in fact learned something?
Well agree on knowledge but plenty of knowledge out there for free. Next agree on tuition, but what about bribing the professors so save $? Or saying it's a gift? Next greedy to me is wanting something but not wanting to pay for it or making someone else pay for it
If you bribe a professor, you might burn in hell. Just saying
Ha! Or reincarnated as a worm
Maybe professors could be paid enough that bribing them would be more expensive than the money saved by a higher grade? Maybe the professor would loose their job if they accept gifts from students, parents or anyone else for that matter.
I get what your saying but I think if the costs were acceptable nobody (or at least less ) would be complaining. The cost is way to high.
Well right now the cost for a university is 100k/year so even at 50k tuition it only covers half. So where does the money come from to pay professors more?
I don't think I'm smart enough or know enough to answer that.
100k is fuggin high, 50k is high. I guess my question would be, where does that money go? How many students at a university? lets say just for example theres 5000 x 100k each . . . is that really 500 million a year? Can anybody check the math?
Harvard budget $3.7b/year (it's published) for a 1,500 freshman class (budget for entire university)
Holy shit! I did not know that.
$3.7b annual budget for one school. . . You just blew my mind. Multiply that by the number of schools in the country and we have got to be in the Trillions.
This is not a problem?
Unbelievable! But includes medical research ect it's a vast business! But lets say 100 schools over $1b so $100b and all the other schools another $100b only $200b outbof $14,000b economy
So the 'Choice' your advocating is pay up or go to the library?
Or state school. Some of the best are state schools... The California system great, NY functional and adequate, IL great others I'm less familiar with
troll
Open minded aren't you? Or is OWS full of closed minded stubborn individuals such as you appear to be
LOL, I've been troll watching here for days, my comment was made after seeing the overall level of post by this poster and others whose names are well recognized, not off seeing one post. There are some reasonable right wing voiced here and those folks don't get called troll even if they are vigorously argued with.
But your comment below mentioning the relative tolerance vs.intolerance of your most conservative friends surpassing what you see here made me chuckle. I don't know many conservatives whose open mindedness is put to the test, they make sure not to mingle much with those who might challenge them, and we don't go to troll their forums to the point of making them useless for discussion among the people who are the target demographic, But please how much money do you want to put on a bet that pits the far right's tolerance for vigorously argued left wing ideas in their bastions vs. the tolerance displayed here, just curious, trying to see if you are lying to yourself or to all of us when you say that.
LOL, if 50 polite (not the case of most of the trolls here, but this comparison is so ridiculous that we could easily live with that handicap and still prove your comparison a lie) .....so again if 50 polite but very persistent leftists of varying stripes were to try to do what the right-wing trolls do here day in and out for even ONE day at an active tea party site (are there even still any?) or a site like thefreerepublic, it wouldn't take more than a few hours for them, their mothers, their friends, and all their offspring for 5 generations to be painted with every disparaging description imaginable, very likely repeatedly threatened with gun violence or told they should be violently dealt with and similarly have venom and disgust vomited on them in a veritable puke storm of hate. There would be a few conservatives in the mob behaving well, but they'd have to leave with a quickness since they'd start getting the same if they tried to intervene.
And that's me giving a generous estimation, since in reality, only a few insults and threats would have a chance to flow, any dissenting left wing voices speaking in that number on their turf would not be able to keep accounts nearly that long.
Well if you put 1 OWS in a room of bankstirs, the probably would tell them to get a grip on the way the world works. But feels to me that one bankstir in a room of OWS would be physically attacked
yup !
1) Even before the economic crisis, the average starting salary for someone with a degree was $33K. If you took out a $100K loan to get such a degree, you made a really stupid financial decision.
2) The reason student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy is because the lender can’t repossess your education. With a house or a car loan, the lender has the ability to mitigate losses if you default, specifically, they can take possession of the underlying asset. If discharge were allowed, you would see the student loan market disappear, because no lender is going to give an 18-21 year old with no assets and no job an unsecured loan.
3) Government backing of loans was implemented to provide additional protection for the lenders and ensure loans were available to students. Like most government programs, this resulted in unintended consequences such as tuition rates skyrocketing in response to vast amounts of money being available.
4) Though government backing of student loans was an ill-conceived plan, in implementing this plan the government was treating you like an adult. They ensured that loans were available to you. Your responsibility was to understand the terms of the loan and evaluate the costs and benefits of taking a loan (see number 1). If you are unable to make these types of adult decisions, then I suggest you also petition the government to raise the voting age.
5) Student loans are generally not taken out all at once to cover the entire duration of one’s course of study. So you had many opportunities along the way to re-evaluate your plan. As the economy worsened and the jobs market was drying up, you could have stopped taking out loans and forged a different path. If you chose not to do this, then you made a bad financial decision.
6) Amnesty does not make the debt disappear. It simply shifts the burden to your fellow citizens who seem to have enough financial distress of their own without the added burden of paying for your education.
Best post I've read on this site to date. You need to make this into it's own forum topic "Why Student Debt should NOT be discharged".
Great summary! Thank you -GR
Wow, I FUCKING KNOW, I've been saying this.the whole time, but people are saying things like "Its not my fault for my complicit ignorance,they did this intentionally."