Forum Post: Stock up for winter
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 7, 2011, 3:41 p.m. EST by twisted
(110)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I hate to break it to you children, but they really don’t give a fuck what we think, so long as you breath, they are just going to keep piling all of their debt onto you, and are planning their next US $ 1.4 trilion bailout, so this is going to take a while, remember the german army got wiped out in Russia because they weren’t prepared for winter and the cold did what the Russians couldn’t. If we are serious and we are going to act like pussies and all green peace like for an extended period of time, lets get stocked up for winter cause it will be here soon. They think that they can ignore us and out last us and the cold will take us out.
Oh yeah . . .Tear Down the Wall
A supply and re-supply chain for the Movement on the ground is crucial.
OWS must not fail - it is the first and last hope for the World.
I believe supporters who are not at ground zero could be organising supplies such as clothing, hot drinks, warm sleeping bags and so on.
OWS is a test for the oneness of Humanity itself, aside from the central objectives.
OWS has started something truly great - lets us ensure it gains momentum.
Things working out here ?
I think they will soon probably end up playing
the national security card about how this is really
unpatriotic
America is becoming THIRD WORLD! What the hell hapened? It is too damned expensive there, all you do is work to keep up with mounting expenses and you are FUCKING LUCKY IF YOU HAVE WEEKENDS OFF! Also health insurance here is a FUCKING SCAM! In the other normal industrialized countries everyone is required to have health insurance and if some one can't afford it, the government pays for this. Plus there are no copays or fucking deductibles. Insurance pays for everything! We got ripped off and the government let the insurance companies rape us!
your just jealous cause you think you have something to lose and we don't if you really want to talk nonsense about whats what, please explain how the fed has suddenly got 2.8 trillion dollars that magically appeared on its balance sheet and why the US is on the wrong end of US $ 644 trillion derivatives on a US $14 trillion economy . . .with US$ 115 trillion in unfunded liabilities and why is it that the banks are going to need US 1.4 trillion in QE3
@worldFreedom
hey if everybody eligible for food stamps sent in just one
that would be 45 million . . . don't worry . . .its all comming together
real nice
Believe me, everybody just needs to rummage around a bit in the attic, you will find what you need, and what is needed will be made available if you are still here when the time comes
The point you may unintentionally bring up is resource scarcity in the face of a looming economic collapse.
While ona personal level I consider myself a-ok, the real pont still stands to reason- the communities evolvolving in protest need a logistical hub foor donations
http://nycga.cc/2011/10/04/needsoftheoccupiers/
I'll be donating on pay days.
cheers
I didn't see long underwear on the list and think it should be.
You would be surprised . . .how quick this could be over
you may think this is new
this wave stared a long time back and has much more momentum than you think
but if you get to needing long underwear, look for the box with a mad hatter on it
Hehe... No, I don't need any myself. What I meant was it would be a good idea to include them on the list of needs that a distant supporter such as myself could send. As the saying goes "Winter is coming."
Oh yeah . . .bon fires and pagen dances . . .should be fun . . .
pagan orgies
ummmmm . . . . .hot revloutionary chicks
What about putting donation monies towards outdoor patio heaters to heat the park?
Blankets, sleeping bags, gloves, warming items, etc.
Ah . . .the City is going to try to clear the park next week
you will find that those that need to stock up and can stock up and get that stock to you
will
The hell they are
Grrrrrrrrrrr . . .Tear down the Wall
Oh yeah . .and they ain't just going to give up on the free gravy train because a politically correct bunch a kids think they are corrupt
Hey they own the media . .they are going to make us look like a bunch of loons
so . .if we are serious . . well . .then its serious
Point taken . .point I was trying to make is that its going to take a while, I don't want lose because I wasn't prepared.
This isn't going to be easy, these guys have got used to getting billions of dollars of our money for free . .they own politicians, police, city officials
If we can get through all that, might as well keep a warm coat just in case :P
Tear Down The Wall
The German 6th Army was captured because Herman Goering LIED and said he could keep the Eastern front supplied. OF COURSE they knew Winter would come but they were PROMISED WINTER SUPPLIES which NEVER SHOWED.
You mean that the people higher up in the command chain lied to the average person that they would be taken care of even though there was no money or material?
oh wait..they don't have a job..lol
I shop only at markets and stores where the owners contribute to the good of the local environment. I stopped buying new corporate goods over two years ago and have taken to buying the majority of my purchases at local thrift stores that contribute to the good of the community. I boycott the big corporate owned thrift stores like Goodwill where the local CEO's still bring home millions of dollars in salary and instead shop the local thrift stores run by schools and organizations that use the money received to further the advancement of the rights of the people over corporate profits.
We know they don't care what we think. That's the given that inspired us to do more than just think. The difference between silent thought and united noise has proven to be a valuable tool in the past. Coupled with police responses, people moving money to smaller institutions, and whatever else we can come up with, this is far from merely a thought experiment.
Stock up but don't buy anything made or sold by a corporation. Wait....
I'm actually fine buying something from a corporation that I can use to aide in taking them down. As I've said before, I think it would be rather unwise to cripple ourselves prematurely by boycotting nearly everything. We can take 'em down with their own products. I'd feel perfectly content with that.
Sounds like a lack of conviction to me...
It would be a mistake to favor abstract ideology over practical goals.
I'm sure it's satisfying to stand on the outside and nitpick. When you're ready to join, feel free to offer constructive thoughts on the best way to achieve our goals.
People only focus on "practical goals" when they have resigned themselves to the world they live in. And, as Thoreau explains in Walden, any act of resignation is an act of desperation.
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation."
It's unsatisfying to be on the outside. I could preach you ideas of true revolution, and you would not listen. Revolutions of the exterior are fleeting and pointless. The only revolution that matters is the internal, ETERNAL one. However, we live in such a secular society, that any invocation of "God" or "The Spiritual Life" probably means nothing to you.
I mean conviction because that's an immovable leg you can stand on. Someone can push with the might of a titan, and if you had enough conviction you wouldn't budge. Practical goals, however, is the cynical sign of a man without imagination.
Who can say what prospect life offers another?
Thoreau. Hell yeah.
You don't value practical goals. I see.
You're right about at least one thing: you're preaching, and I'm not listening to you.
The valuation of blind ideology has caused the world almost as much trouble as the Federal Reserve banking system. But I digress.
It would probably surprise you that I support your protest. However, I see already the limitations of it.
I don't value "practical goals" because I value my mind better than that. Because I'm not attached to the mundane like you.
You probably think I'm preaching some kind of Bible stuff to you. No no, not quite. But I am speaking a language stronger than yours. That's why you turn a deaf ear to me. It shakes you.
I tend to be dismissive of anyone who values ideology over practicality in such an absolute way, but I also try never to turn a "deaf ear", even though I might not be "listening", ie. heeding your advice.
Supporting our protest while also saying the only true revolution is the internal one, would be incongruous. Ideology has its place, but it doesn't replace the practical. This protest is about a practical problem requiring a practical solution. If you'd rather think meditating in the woods with no corporate-produced goods within 500ft. of you would comprise a better protest, I support your right to give it a try.
Why is it incongruous? I said I support your movement but am aware of the limitations.
Speaking of ideology: Thoreau was sent to jail because of it. He didn't pay his taxes because he didn't agree with American foreign policy. If everyone had ideology--or, rather, CONVICTION--like he did, then we wouldn't even have problems with corporations.
I say this to you and you take this with however much salt you like: a great many protesters wouldn't be protesting if there weren't other protesters. However, the man with convictions protests despite others.
True, if everyone had conviction, we wouldn't have this problem. We do have this problem, though, because many lack it. Do you have a method in mind of endowing all people with conviction, as a solution?
Refusal to pay taxes is a practical method of protest, but call it what you like. It's a semantic argument. If you have an idea in mind to use "conviction", as you call it, to solve the problem, try making it heard. I'd suggest injecting a bit of humility into your arguments though to make them more palatable to the majority. Not everyone will be able to stomach your high-horsed, "I see your limitations," preachings.
If lack of conviction is the problem that got us here, how does camping out in a public park and marching around a city address that? You don't get laser eye surgery when your appendix is about to burst, do you?
That's their problem. The fact is, if you try to appeal to the majority and play to the lowest common denominator, you won't get anywhere. You'll just become a fraction of what you actually are. The only way to fulfill your true potential is to live it honestly, constantly, and despite anyone else.
I do have a solution to endowing conviction. It involves reforming the school system to teach philosophy and "morals." I'd teach Plato, the Bible (but not Christianity), the Bhagavad Gita, the Iliad, Walden, Emerson's essays, Shakespeare, etc. I'd encourage everyone to reach for their greatest potential and never be satisfied who they are.
Thoreau's method wasn't "practical" because he had no goal attached to it. He didn't join a movement of people who weren't paying taxes. He simply didn't pay taxes because he felt he shouldn't. In fact, Thoreau wasn't very endeared towards "practical" movements.
http://ablogandabrain.blogspot.com/2011/10/open-response-to-occupy-wall-st-and.html
You should enjoy this.
Do you pay taxes?
Sounds like a beautiful dream (except the bible part, which I personally don't believe in and don't feel has a place in the schooling system). You want to change the system, but so far it's stayed the same.
You're operating in a fantasy world. The reality is harsh and grim, in a sense, and people who want change have been struggling with it forever. You want to stay true to your beliefs, but it is on rare occasion that real change happens just because one person remains true to their beliefs.
You say the movement has limitations due to a lack of conviction. How do you propose changing that?
The methodology of your thinking is ultimately self-defeating. You want the school system to change. Will your personal convictions alone make that happen? Will more people need to change their thinking in order for it to happen? Will they do that just because you have conviction?
How long have you envisioned this change? Have you seen any change yet? Are you planning to hold onto your convictions alone, until the day you die, though it does nothing for the world?
Without making a practical attempt to change the minds of a significant number of others who might then have a chance at implementing change, why would any change occur?
People are reading Thoreau's work a hundred and fifty years later.
Is anyone going to even remember anything practical you did 50 years from now? How about 5?
The conviction allows you to operate as you see fit, regardless of the surroundings. I won't need to fix the school system, because I won't be sending my kids to school. If everyone thought in like manner, there wouldn't be a bogus school system to fix because there wouldn't be any kids going to school. Look at how much knowledge is free, on the internet or in libraries, what's the point of going and getting brainwashed and told to conform anyway? School isn't about the knowledge, it's about the control.
Are you familiar with the law of non-contradiction? If schools are supposed to be educating people, and they're turning out a bunch of morons, then either
1) They are actually educating people, we just can't measure it.
OR
2) The goal is not to educate people
I'm digressing here, because I can see how the discussion will turn, but that's just an example. On principle, I will refuse to participate in organized education. On principle, I will do better because I know that I can. If everyone actually did what they said (like stopping supporting big business, stopping voting for either of the two big political parties) then these things would HAVE to change or go away because they would be pressured.
But partying in a public park is a lot more fun than living on principle.
It's all well and good to say "if everyone did [something] we wouldn't be in this mess", but unfortunately something practical generally needs to be done in the way of influencing others.
In a way I think this staunch belief in internalizing the conflict is really just a way to avoid grunt work and/or the possibility of failure. No one can say you failed because you don't admit to working towards a goal, and you don't need to get your hands dirty because you're not doing anything practical -- all from the lofty position of convincing yourself that this is somehow superior to the sweat the rest of the people are contributing.
You'd rather hope to become a legend than be a mere one contributing some tiny unglamorous part to a group. I don't blame you. I have those same feelings often. Try rolling up your sleeves for just a short while though, and I think you'll find it more rewarding than you could've imagined.
How is living your beliefs not practical? Look up the definition of practical. I don't get it.
It's not necessarily internalizing the conflict. The revolution begins on the inside. Then you can act with power toward outward situations.
As an example, since I've come to my own political beliefs, outside of the cookie-cutter smokescreen "left" and "right", I've entered into countless discussions in the last year, of a political nature, and been able to convince many folks around me to quit supporting the two parties. If people vote their conscious, then maybe we can get to a point where that becomes the social norm, instead of marketing and "electability".
How can you complain about an injustice in the world when your actions, directly or indirectly, support that injustice? The idea is laid out here http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil1.html
I don't give a rip about becoming a legend. I'm becoming myself. If you think that that's not work, you haven't tried. Almost every force on the planet is trying to control us and make us into somebody who they can control.
Much like gadflydigital, I support the sentiments of Occupy Whatever. I spent two days at Occupy Seattle, even participating in a GA. I found it less rewarding than you could've imagined. I, too, understand the limitations. How is this any different than our governments Occupy Afghanistan? No clear goals. No clear complaints. Just an indefinite gripe. How would this be any different than if I was unhappy with life, and started Occupy Couch, and sat downstairs and grumbled about what I hated every day? You gotta figure out what you want, and then go get it. I'd like to imagine that this could succeed in some measurable way. It's only hacking at the branches of evil when we could be striking at the root.
"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." -Sun Tzu
We are indeed in the terribly weak position of having decided to come together as a first step, to decide that we all simply agree that there is a problem, and make that reality heard while we discuss and try to solidify our goals.
First gather, then discuss? Does that sound so unreasonable?
If you have a suggestion for "striking at the root", we're all ears. You can be another nay-sayer, scoffer, judger. Or you can do something constructive, and put a suggestion on the table.
I did. http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-demand-everyone-should-be-able-to-get-on-board/
That's my "practical" demand, as you would say.
A real solution, striking at the root, would be to end the Fed. It would be a short term disaster, I imagine, but lead to long term health. Much like illness for the body.
There's nothing wrong with getting together and discussing the issue. Who knows, maybe the group can get something out of it? Maybe they can.. I'd like to imagine they can. But all the squandered resources makes me sad. It's been incredible, the support for OWS and various other groups. Imagine if all these people cared enough all the time for, pick anything, starving people in our own communities?, and attacked that with vigor.
If you'd like to read my full thoughts and feelings, written after attending Seattle GA, you can read here http://ablogandabrain.blogspot.com/2011/10/open-response-to-occupy-wall-st-and.html
I'm not convinced that would end the fed, but we're in agreement that that's a good demand.
The moment anyone shows resolve, they open themselves up to the opportunity for others to point out other causes that might be deemed worthier. That's truly sickening pessimism. I choose to say "good for you" to people who decide to fight for something good, rather than finding reasons to take jabs at them for it.
If you believe the fight to end starvation deserves more attention, why make your political demand suggestion here?
Besides, talk about striking the root -- ending the fed would help starvation. The corporate government has been taking out leaders of resource-heavy countries who refuse to become indebted to US interests at the expense of their own people. End it, and the raping of third-world countries can stop.
Ending lobbying and ending the Fed are two different things.
I'm all for fighting for something good. But I'm for doing it in a manner to get that good thing. I'm sure you've heard "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". We need good RESULTS! And the first step to getting those is to identify the problem (so you can propose a worthwhile solution). Without that, all this is is talk.
I'm making suggestions on here because this has become an open forum where a lot of people are looking for ideas. If I don't take the opportunity to put my ideas out there, if they aren't talked about, later I would be partly to blame for the good ideas not being out there. If I put them out there and nobody cares? Eh, I gave it a shot. What more can I do? In a leaderless, principleless, abstract organization, I'm just trying to put a little common sense out there. I'm not a part of any organization, and I'm not going to join one that doesn't have a purpose beyond complaining, but maybe I can lend a little help via the discussion.
Ending the Fed would go a LONG way toward getting a LOT of things most people are for. On the other hand, it would bring with it some more personal responsibility, and few people are really for that.
The lowest common denominator is a real problem with this movement. Without a guiding principle, it's going to be near impossible to head in any direction. I'd like to think otherwise, but look at anything that has ever been accomplished. There has been some principle behind it. And not something abstract like "fairness" or "anti-corruption".
"The lowest common denominator is a real problem with this movement. Without a guiding principle, it's going to be near impossible to head in any direction."
You're arguing for practicality, and I agree.
haha, that's the original point with Thoreau, what the guy was mentioning earlier! You've got to handle what you can control FIRST, and what you can control is yourself! And act to the strongest degree on that!
“The fate of the country does not depend on how you vote at the polls–the worst man is as strong as the best at that game; it does not depend on what kind of paper you drop into the ballot-box once a year, but on what kind of man you drop from your chamber into the street every morning.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Slavery in Massachusetts, 1854
"gadflydigital" was arguing against practicality, not merely against external action taking a front seat.
Influencing the lowest common denominator with rallying points isn't an example of putting self-conviction first. You keep switching between the two options to suit the particulars.
You're talking in terms of ideals now. It would be great if everyone could live 100% according to the highest personal standards imaginable while still accomplishing things, but in the absence of that as a foreseeable goal, I'd settle for appealing to the lowest common denominator as you also suggest.
Do I? I see it all as doing the maximum of what I am capable of.
I went to Occupy Seattle for two days, like I mentioned. Once I realized that this was going nowhere in a hurry (possibly nowhere at all) I also realized that my efforts are better spent elsewhere. Everyone is looking to see what Occupy Wall St is going to do. Maybe if I can drop some good knowledge here, the peeps would run with it, and then maybe it could turn into something.
In your last paragraph, you're right on until "but in the absence of that". This is the crux of the argument. As soon as we rationalize, as soon as we make excuses for everyone to fall short of their best efforts, then we allow it to happen. I recognize that gray area in the middle is inevitable. Perfection is not attainable. But why give everyone the way out with a rationalization? I am convinced that most people (myself even, sometimes) attempt to do the least amount that is expected of them. If we want more, then we have to start expecting more out of people.
The problem is not only lazy or ignorant people, but everyone around them who knows better and doesn't challenge them to reach their own potential.
If you know better and you say nothing, you are an accomplice to ignorance.
It's also a matter of practical necessity though. If the only coat I can afford is made by a corporation whose practices I despise, I would have to leave the protest to suit my ideals when it gets too cold.
I'm not sure if this is exactly an example of the personal conviction you're promoting, but it is what began this argument thread with gadflydigital.
Well, then you'd have to determine which is causing the biggest positive. Your being at the protest, or going without the corporate coat. And, as mentioned before, if everyone was more convinced about going without the corporate coat, then maybe the corporate coatmakers who are running the world with all their money would have to think twice. Unless you think corporate coatmakers are much more scared of a bunch of people camping in public parks. But that's the decision each protestor has to come to.
I've come to the decision that at this point, the noise is more important than the boycott. There have been many campaigns to boycott corporations who have done this or that, and they've similarly gone nowhere.
I think most would agree that the main reason this movement solidified is because people recognized that passive armchair activism wasn't working, possibly because it wasn't loud enough get the number of supporters it needed, but all the same, something else needed to be tried.
It would be great if it were practically possible to do both, but things can also work out in our favor if we foregoe the ideal of making sure our protests are done with the absolute purity of zero products procured from "the enemy".
gadflydigital and I both hope that there can be some positive results.
But if only the hacking of branches happens, more branches will grow to take their place.
Wishing everyone well!
anyone who took out loans and was some how fooled into taking out more then they could afford is an idiot if you don't know how much you make and how much you can pay and still have enough to live then you are an idiot anyone with any brain could figure that out and I don't think they fooled anyone I think a bunch of deadbeats took out loans with no intention of paying it back and I think this protest is a bunch of union creeps who are mad because goverments are cutting jobs but those same unions will not do what it takes to save those jobs they just throw younger employees under the bus and refuse to pay for anything and also a bunch of deadbeats who live off taxpayers through welfare,foodstamps,student loans that they use for thing that were never intended like living on and buying other junk having nothing to do with college,and then the deadbeats who have lived off goverment forever and have brainwashed their children into thinking the taxpayers have to should take care of them while they sit at home on their asses spitting out kids and doing nothing but sucking the life out of the middle class I think welfare for everyone should end today and maybe those deadbeats would take the jobs that are out there and there are plenty do like the pay whaaa tough get to jobs then you lazy bums I have thru my entire life so suck it up stop complaining and get to work you lazy good for nothing leeches
This site is a JOKE!!!!!
The more money taken in donations for the cause is making the banks make more money! So keep the donations coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!