Forum Post: Socialism? Maxism? Seriously?
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 4, 2011, 5:18 p.m. EST by somedude
(0)
from Hoboken, NJ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
For those who think some other form of government is somehow beyond the grip of greed and corruption, you might consider reading more about the system you favor or think is the answer.
You might not like what you learn.
Good work some dude, there are some f-ing retards out there with no idea
its funny how the right and the left both thing that when you do something against corporate America to support fair democracy, fair capitalism, fair elections and that they automatically think it's socialist, communist etc. we're trying to come away from the politics and parties for the greater good.
we had the best form of govt in the 1800s, no system is immune to corruption but the barriers our govt placed on govt power enabled us time and time again to kill the FED. to put it bluntly,ALL governments become corrupt the government that has the least control over your life is the best choice because it is more easily tamed
this is not about political systems this is about the economical system because wall street rules the man who came from crypton to save the USA. Change the economical system because if you are rich or poor everyone has to live in fear. The rich live in high security houses which are like prisons to not get ripped off. If we have a more balanced society everyone benefits for instance look at sweden, norway, danmark
free money with negative interest rates are the solution http://occupywallst.org/forum/introduce-a-new-economic-system/#comment-15738.
agreed. we need democracy not socialism, not communism, not capitalism.. democracy.
...Capitalism/socialism are economic systems. Democracy is a governmental system. You cannot have a governmental system without an economic system.
actually the USA operates just fine as corporate oligarchy make beleiving capitalism- its only got a governmental system not an actual economic system... i am all for a free market system- when do we start?
"Capitalism/socialism are economic systems. Democracy is a governmental system."
who says it gotta be that way? What about economic democracy? What about bringing the ideas of political democracy to the economic realm?
It could be....evolutionary...OMG!
Democracy's most capable partner in terms of economic systems is capitalism, as capitalism in its purest form preserves the freedoms and liberties of its population.
If the concepts of democracy were applied in a literal sense to the economy, there would be representatives of specific areas in complete control of all industry affecting their area who would be ruled by a more senior set of representatives in control of national industry. No citizen would have control of their economic choices. The result would be even more elitist than America today: a group of representatives would be given ultimate power. Yes, you might believe that you can easily end the reign of a tyrant representative if one should show up, but can you do that so easily today? How can you tell that they are tyrants when they are masked by the convincing visage of excellent propaganda?
This model you are proposing is not 'evolutionary' (revolutionary I would assume you meant), it is oppression at its finest.
Danny, you might be right, things tend to get weird. But I did mean "evolutionary" in the sense of the "expansion" of rights. To be "revolutionary" to me, means an abrupt stop and re-start. "Evolutionary" to me means an organic expansion of rights as consciousness is raised as to what is fair and right and good.
I just think that just as we once told the king "We have political, representational rights as human beings" that we can also say that we have rights as economic beings. I guess those are like demands, and how they are implemented in a system is the question.
How do we ensure our "rights" as economic beings, as opposed to purely political beings? And how does the organization of society need to change to allow that?
There is an economic equivalent to democracy. It's called capitalism.
In what way can economics be democratic?
I'm not sure, but I think that there are some things to think about. I mean, at one time, the political organization of society was defined by a single dude - a king - and we all bowed down and lived that way. If we needed something, we went to the king and maybe he granted it,maybe not.
Now today, we have this assembly thing for political organization, BUT when it comes to economics - the organization of work, money, healthcare - those issues -- it seems to me that we're still takin' orders from a small number of people. Don't we all have the same kind of stake in our economic life as we do in our political life?
I'm not sure how it works itself out - maybe smarter guys than me can figure it - but I just can't accept "oh, this is political and this is economic" because some white guys in England in the 1700s said so. I mean politics and economics are OBVIOUSLY intertwined - that's why we're here - so why CAN'T we have a voice in how resources are allocated, for example? Why can't a town have a say in whether a factory moves to Vietnam? Why CAN'T we have a say in what the "minimum wage"is?
You know???
I'm just sayin'
We do have a say. In our economy, people are free to make decisions on what transactions to enter into - from both the buyer's and seller's side. Whenever someone purchases something, they are essentially voting for that product and, thus, that firm that produces the product.
For example, a town has a say whether a Walmart stays in their community. If the community does not value Walmart's value proposition, they are free to shop (vote) elsewhere. Shopping elsewhere will eventually cause Walmart to fail in that community. The same example works with regards to where products are made.
Check the link after the edit mark on this page for a working list of goals http://occupywallst.org/forum/first-official-release-from-occupy-wall-street/
and this Warning from the original Tea Party before it got hijacked http://occupywallst.org/forum/an-open-letter-and-warning-from-a-former-tea-party/
and this list of usefull PDF files http://occupywallst.org/forum/demonstration-materials/
Please link me to the post where somebody made the claim that there is a perfect form of government, or even one without greed and corruption. I some doubt you can.
Does Capitalism handle greed and corruption well?
It's not capitalism when government force is used to give some an advantage over others. Technically, that is fascism. The U.S. today is a fascist system advertised with socialist slogans. Corruption is guaranteed under any system that gives unwarranted power of coercion to any group.
Capitalism is what free, honest people do to survive in the absence of cheating or coercion. They create wealth and trade with each other voluntarily, and only if both benefit. So, if you're a dressmaker and your neighbor is a shoemaker, how far ahead is your neighbor going to get in trading with you if she is greedy? If she charges too much, you don't have to pay (as long as nobody is stopping someone else from offering an alternative). Capitalism is not about greed. It takes integrity to get people to trust you with their money, and even more for them to trust you enough to work with you as an employee. The only way greedy people get ahead is when elements of fascism of socialism creep in. Take away the government gun, and they fail. Badly.
Agreed entirely.
Dagny! I've missed you for years! My love for you will never die.
Thanks for chiming in.