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Forum Post: So much for MSNBC

Posted 6 years ago on Dec. 7, 2011, 12:41 p.m. EST by frankchurch1 (839) from Jersey City, NJ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Morning Joe had on T-Boone Pickens, the big, billionaire oil man and he was asked about tax fairness and he went on about all the money he pays in taxes and yada yada. Then he promoted the keystone tarsands pipeline, as did Scarborough. I'm sorry, the media still doesn't get it. They are in the pocket of big oil and big polluters. Occupy them!



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[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 5 years ago

Weeeeelllll, finally.

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 5 years ago

We need to Occupy media

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3900) 5 years ago

Yay - can we intercept the broadcasts? Maybe bring back the fairness doctrine?

[-] 1 points by frankchurch1 (839) from Jersey City, NJ 6 years ago


[-] 1 points by ubercaput (175) from New York City, NY 6 years ago

How to occupy the media?

[-] 2 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 6 years ago

smart occupations (like occupyforclosures/ the house) and announcing the National General Assembly. Every media outlet in the world will want to know WTF that is.

[-] 1 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 6 years ago

And if they don't, then we will make our own media.

Thanks to YouTube, Vimeo, etc. We don't NEED mainsteam media anymore. We just need a good plan to reach the people that still only use MSM as their news source.

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 6 years ago

We need wired Committees of Correspondence. It worked well for the founding fathers.


[-] 1 points by jomojo (562) 6 years ago

http://sanders.senate.gov/petition/?uid=f1c2660f-54b9-4193-86a4-ec2c39342c6c Like Tar Sand ads? If not PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION

[-] 1 points by jomojo (562) 6 years ago

Maybe Monsanto's GE corn can be used for fuel to extract it from under the overburden (forests), separate it from the sand, pipeline it, refine it and transport it. I guess fracking for Natural gas would be more natural to use. Whoever can afford the most media.....

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 6 years ago

But, they aren't relevant.

[-] 0 points by fishb8 (62) 6 years ago

The Pipe line will create 1000's of immediate jobs and many more support jobs. These are real jobs not Obama jobs. The oil will come to us or if not, will be sold to others. It will reduce the number of oil Tankers which carry a high carbon footprint and danger of spills. Green energy sounds good if you are in the carbon credit business like Al Gore and Obama, but it won't produce anywhere near our needs.

Oil companies create so much money because they are huge operations but their profit percentage rival that of a grocery store . . .4 to 9 percent. Unless YOUR electric car doesn't need to get charged I bet you will always need oil or coal in your life . . . by the way . ..what's your phone made of?

by the way . . .has the word "Occupy" formally replaced "F**K" as a curse word ???

[-] 2 points by jomojo (562) 6 years ago

How many people do I know that has every worked on a completed pipeline? NONE. This is being railroaded through and everyone of you sorry MF's helping should have to eat TAR SAND for breakfast every morning.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 6 years ago

In some states, this could mean that the number of local workers hired for the project could be fewer than 100. Based on data provided by TransCanada to the State Department, only between 506 and 1,387 workers would be hired locally. A state-by-state breakdown indicates that KXL pipeline, Enbridge’s proposed Northern Gateway, to carry Tar Sands oil across British Columbia for export to Asian markets, although this pipeline also faces serious public opposition. Clearly, Tar Sands oil and energy independence really do not belong in the same sentence.

A state-by-state breakdown indicates that KXLwill create between 93 and 257 jobs for residents in Montana; 121-333 jobs in South Dakota; 90-248 jobs in Nebraska; 6-18 jobs in Kansas; 41-113 jobs in Oklahoma; and 156-470 jobs in Texas. Information provided by TransCanada regarding the construction of Keystone Phase 1 further indicates that KXL is likely to provide only a limited number of jobs to residentsalong the pipeline’s route. Responding to an inquiry made to TransCanada by the South Dakota Public Utilities Commission, TransCanada officially reported that during the construction of Keystone Phase 1 it employed a total of 2,580 workers in South Dakota, but only 282 workers (11%) of the workers were residents of the state. This included 20 workers in supervision, 3 welders, 32 truck drivers, 27 equipment operators, 110 laborers, and 90 construction managers, surveyors or inspectors.

Building KXL US would require only a modest amount of on-site construction and inspection workers and for only a short period. Moreover, local hiring would be tiny,because it is only a small proportion (10–15 %) of a small number of total jobs. So to the extent that the KXL US project could have significant employment impacts, these jobs would have to be off-site. Thus, it is important to also consider the labor requirements associated with the materials and supplies which are inputs to the KXL US project.

TransCanada claims that “*The $7 billion (KXL) pipeline project is expected to directly create more than 20,000 high-wage manufacturing jobs and construction jobs in 2011-2012 across the US, stimulating significant additional economic activity." This claim is misleading and erroneous on a number of levels. First, as discussed above, the budget for KXL US that relates to incremental US employment is $3 to $4 billion and not the $7 billion claimed by the proponents. Second,TransCanada and other KXL proponents are giving the impression that KXL will create a high number of manufacturing jobs. This is simply not true. The main manufacturing activity related to pipeline construction is the manufacture of the steel pipe. The 36-inch steel pipe is the largest single materials input for KXL. This is literally the pipe in the pipeline. In general, pipeline construction is not a manufacturing-intensive activity even if the steel itself is also being manufactured onshore.This section will present strong evidence that:

(a) almost half (and perhaps more) of the primary material input for KXL—steel pipe—will not even be produced in the United States;

(b) based on the experience of Phases 1 and 2, the final processing work for KXL will probably be performed in the US with most of the steel and pipe sourced from oustide of the US (notably India and South Korea).

In making a case for the thousands of manufacturing jobs offered by KXL, TransCanada provides the assurances that “approximately 75% of the pipe for the US portion of the proposed Project would be purchased from North American pipe manufacturing facilities and that regardless of the country of origin, it would purchase pipe only from qualified pipe suppliers and trading houses.” However, there is strong evidence to suggest that almost half of the primary material input for KXL—steel pipe—will not even be produced in the United States.

KXL will require over 800,000 tons of carbon steel pipe.23 TransCanada has contracted with an Indian multi-national company, the Mumbai-based Welspun Corp Limited, and a Russian company, Evraz, to manufacture steel pipe for KXL.. In fact, a significant portion of the $1.7 billion already invested in KXL by TransCanada has likely been used towards the manufacture and import of the pipe. Clearly, this is an investment that is for the most part generating economic activity and job creation outside of the US. TransCanada’s claims that US manufacturing would reap considerable benefits from the project need to be viewed in the light of these data.

Of this writing, TransCanada has not received the Presidential Permit that is required to construct the KXL pipeline, but has already signed contracts for almost 50% of the steel pipe for the project.25 The Russian company, Evraz, will manufacture about 40% of KXL pipe in its Camrose and Regina mills in Canada. This information is based on Evraz’s own contract announcements and their contracts with Bredero Shaw, the company coating the KXL pipes.

The Indian company, Welspun, is likely to be manufacturing the rest of the pipe for the KXL project. To date, Welspun has manufactured and imported almost 10% of the pipe for KXL. Shipping and customs records show that TransCanada imported over 70,000 tons of carbon steel pipe from Welspun through the Port of New Orleans since April 2011. The pipe TransCanada has imported from Welspun since April 2011 meets the specifications for KXL (36 inch diameter) and has been imported after the completion of Keystone Phase 2, which also used 36 inch pipe. It therefore seems likely that the rest of the pipe needed for KXL will probably be manufactured in Welspun’s Indian plants and then shipped to the U.S for final processing (double jointing and coating)or manufactured in Welspun’s Arkansas plant, which imports raw coiled steel and other production inputs (notably from India and South Korea.)28 These arrangements allow TransCanada to state that “approximately 75% of the pipe for the US portion of the proposed project would be purchased from North American pipe manufacturing facilities.” This claim is misleading on two levels. Firstly, it is possible to purchase from a North American facility, but this does not necessarily mean that the steel was produced in those facilities. Secondly, the jobs created in Canada-while important to the Canadian economy—should not then be pitched “American jobs” to the media and the American public.

TransCanada’s decision to contract steel pipe for KXL from outside of the US is consistent with past practice. TransCanada imported almost all of the steel pipe needed for the US portion of Keystone Phase 1 (Hardesty, Alberta to Patoka, Illinois) from Welspun’s plants in India.31 In fact, when Welspun was sued by Kinder Morgan for producing substandard steel that led to pipeline leaks and spills: the Indian company that supplied the steel,ArcelorMittal, was also sued. The rest of the pipe for Phase 1 was manufactured by Evraz in its Canadian mills and by Berg Steel Corporation, which has pipe mills both within and outside of North America. TransCanada has and continues to import pipe components(such as valves) from various multi-national corporations like Orion Spa,Valvitalia and subsidiaries of Welspun.

Regarding issues of the quality of the steel used for KXL (see section on oil spills,below), in 2011 TransCanada agreed to 57 new pipe safety specifications demanded by the US Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA). The company was responding to the leaks and spills that had occurred following the construction of TransCanada’s Phase 1 and Phase 2 pipelines. It is unclear how TransCanada plans to meet these new specifications for KXL US. Nor is it clear if and how the State Department is monitoring where TransCanada is producing the pipe for KXL US or whether the pipe meets PHMSA’s specifications. Import records show that TransCanada had already imported close to 10% of the pipe for KXL in early 2011. It is likely that much of the steel pipe for KXL has already been manufactured; the pipe has to be produced substantially before major construction activity begins in order to allow time for double jointing, pipe coating and transport to the construction location.

All in all, the claims made by KXL proponents that the project will generate thousands of manufacturing jobs are unsubstantiated and misleading. If a significant proportion of the pipe is fabricated outside the US, this further decreases positive US employment impacts. Even the steel pipe fabricated within the US is made from imported steel, which further decreases positive US employment impacts. Furthermore, the evidence also suggests that only final processing work is likely to be done in the US, and that other pipe components are also being imported. This further reduces any potential US manufacturing jobs impacts.

Finally, there is evidence to suggest that TransCanada could be offshoring safety concerns,as well as jobs. The fact that the steel and steel pipe are being imported from outside theUS has a safety impact in an area that has already been prone to catastrophic accidents. As indicated above, the KXL project will be subject to more stringent safety specifications.


No, it won't.

[-] 0 points by fishb8 (62) 6 years ago

OH sorry . . . .In that case . . . we'll just wait a hundred years for alternative energy sources to become viable for all our needs . . .

nice cut and paste job . . .by the way

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 6 years ago

You haven't heard? It is not intended for the US, it will be leaving the United States. In fact, the price is going to rise in the Midwest.

How do you not know this?

[-] -1 points by fishb8 (62) 6 years ago

If they don't build in US . . . YES Oil will be sold elsewhere . . . and not specifically to anyone we like . . .

And . . . .. .?

But this is what OWS wants . . .for the US to fail and be dictated too . . . until we can get our OWN Dictator . . .probably Michael Moore

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 6 years ago

That oil is not for US domestic consumption. :/ Period. The oil from this pipeline is NOT earmarked for US domestic consumption.

WE DO NOT get that oil, it is being shipped overseas.

How do you not know this?

[-] 0 points by fishb8 (62) 6 years ago

How do YOU know this. . . .cutting and pasting . . .and Keith Oblerman at Gore's Current TV channel and MSNBC isn't proof or even valid implication.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 6 years ago

I know because I researched it unlike you. Read the report. That isn't all of it. And when you are finished, let me know and I will show you some more.

I don't watch MSNBC and I don't need Keith O. to do my interpretation of news. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 6 years ago

I do believe you'll find the hearings before Congress on CSpan. They become quite interesting when the Canuck Oil Barons feet are held to the fire to have them agree in writing what they spewed out both sides of the necks.

Anyone who doubts your assertion at that point is foolish, even if they do not know who owns the refinery's at the terminal end of the pipe as planned. Same for the one in Illinois which already has a functioning pipeline to it.

They also go into the catastrophic failures of similar pipelines.

Watch them, you'll enjoy it.

The money trail flat out stinks. Canada needs to build their own damned refinery and sell from their own ports. That however, makes far too much sense than putting a complex pipeline right on the edge of the Pacific Ring of Fire, perfectly placed and poised for unimaginable disasters.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 6 years ago

Their profit percentage is not like a grocery store. They take their profits at the refinery level to minimize competition from independent service stations.

They are vertically integrated companies owning: Production->Refining->Service station. If they take the profits at the refining level, it makes no difference to corporate owned stations, but independent service stations who buy from refineries are left with razor thin margins.

Plus it makes for better PR because they say "oh poor me, there is no profit in selling gas... never mind that I make a killing at the refinery I also own."

Anyway, is 1000 jobs which won't last really worth the environmental fallout? How about figuring out how to use less fossil fuel?

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) 6 years ago

i am all for better, cleaner energy but we still live in the real world homie. i still drive a gasoline powered car and you probably do too. when you find a solution to that, maybe then you can villainize others for not towing the line.

[-] 1 points by frankchurch1 (839) from Jersey City, NJ 6 years ago

Homie, I've never had a car and I'm 48.

As James Howard Kunstler has written, we will have to faze out all cars some day soon, even electric ones. That's how bad the coming environmental catastrophe will be. We need to end the suburbs and end sprawl or we are all dead. The Hummer and the electric car have got to go.


[-] -1 points by jabajabajoooooo (1) 6 years ago

you idiots need to support the keystone pipeline, it will do more for the working class than this movement has by a factor of about a million!!!!

[-] -1 points by KingVegetax (51) 6 years ago

Hell yes build it. You envirofucktards don't get it. You can't just kill big oil off cold turkey. You would absolutely trash our economy. We need a comprehensive 30 year plan to get off oil as a fuel source. However it's gonna require nuclear power. Wind turbines and solar will not generate enough power. To match our current energy use , you would need to build 62 million 5 megawatt windturbines. You know how much land that is????

Upgrade the grid , start constructing more nuclear plants, new battery and capacitor tech will be needed as well