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Forum Post: Should Education Go Completely Horizontal Like OWS?

Posted 1 year ago on Nov. 20, 2012, 12:43 p.m. EST by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Since it's creation in 1979, education has plummeted in the USA under the Department of Education. Im not saying that the Federal Government should help to fund things, but how many straws should be attached to that funding?

I personally know more teachers than not that feel that its a near impossible situation to teach these days, so many rules and tests and nonsense. Throw in the issues with the unions and the states, and we have a royal disaster.

So what would be a better environment for your kid to learn? A teacher who is heavily regulated, paid like shit, and forced to go by the book? Or a teacher who is simply able to get a core content package and then decide how to teach. Able to go off the beaten path. Not forced to preach memorize and recite, over and over and over and over?

Education is the key. It has always been the key. So what the fuck happened here in America?

http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/focus/what_pg2.html#whatis

43 Comments

43 Comments


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[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28238) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Greed and controlling the masses. A prolonged attack on society by TPTB.

In answer to - So what the fuck happened here in America?

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

G Carlin- "You know what they want? Obedient workers. Someone just smart enough to work the machine and not quite bright enough to realize they belong to a system that has been fucking them over for 30 fuckin years."

Too bad hes not still around

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

PA Charter School Failure : A little bit of good to know information for those that don't want to hear it: Cyber charters, with no school buildings and fewer teachers, educate students at a substantially less cost than brick-and-mortar charter schools. Cyber charters in Pennsylvania cost an average of $10,145 per student, about $3,600 above the national average of $6,500. However, the funding formula is the same for both brick-and-mortar and cyber charter schools. Thus the cyber schools have a much larger net income, a large amount of which goes to advertising as students come and go.

Charter schools further receive a “double dip” for pension reimbursement, at an additional cost to taxpayers of an estimated $49 million in 2012-13. The legislation passed by the Senate this fall made Right-To-Know Laws applicable to charter school managers and vendors. The legislation also required an independent annual audit for charter schools as well as rejecting the concept of taking the power to authorize charter schools from local school districts.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

No I havent, but I will print it out and read it. Have a two and a half hour trip for Thanksgiving...ugh...

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Yuck. I really am sorry. I only like to do that.........when I wanna.

Let me see if I can find a better version.

http://datacenter.spps.org/uploads/SOTW_A_Nation_at_Risk_1983.pdf

[-] 0 points by Shayneh (-482) 1 year ago

What happened to the education system here in America is the teachers have been handcuffed because of society. How many law suits were filed back in the 50's, 60's and 70's when a teacher decided to disciplin a student - none that I know of.

How many lawsuits have been filed within the last 20 years against teachers, administrators, cities and counties because a parent wasn't happy with how their child was treated - probably thousands.

So, as you can see - society is the main cause of the problem - society wants schools to babysit their child instead of teach them.

[-] -1 points by 1sealyon (434) 1 year ago

Do you believe that we would be better off if the Gov got out of the education business?

[-] 0 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

absolutely

[-] -1 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

You have it correct...education is the key. As always, whenever the government gets involved, the result is never good. Too much bureaucracy and no efficiency.

I think the answer is to get the government out of education. Get rid of the department of education. Those bureaucrats make a lot of money that could be better spent. Take all the education money and give it to the parents of kids in school to use only for paying to the schools they choose to send their kids to. Let them choose where they want to send their kids. The schools will then have to compete for students and will need to offer a better education and environment to get parents to want to send their students there. Those schools that are competing will pay their teachers better to get the best teachers to make their schools competitive. The money paid to the schools by the parents would then be used to upgrade structures, equipment and teachers pay and benefits. It would also open up the teaching field to competition among good teachers for the better schools. By getting the government out of schools and putting the choice in the parents hand, you will see the educational standards of children rise in an environment geared not to pass a test for gov't funding but to graduate intelligent, creative, inspired children that lead other parents to send their kids to those schools that achieve higher results.

This was tried in Washington D.C. a few years ago with great success (graduation rates had dramatically increased as well as children excelling at academic milestones) but was stopped when the government felt they were losing their grip on those funds and took school choice away.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577585582150808386.html

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

privatize it - like blackwater & the prisons

[-] -1 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

You have it correct...education is the key. As always, whenever the government gets involved, the result is never good. Too much bureaucracy and no efficiency.

I think the answer is to get the government out of education. Get rid of the department of education. Those bureaucrats make a lot of money that could be better spent. Take all the education money and give it to the parents of kids in school to use only for paying to the schools they choose to send their kids to. Let them choose where they want to send their kids. The schools will then have to compete for students and will need to offer a better education and environment to get parents to want to send their students there. Those schools that are competing will pay their teachers better to get the best teachers to make their schools competitive. The money paid to the schools by the parents would then be used to upgrade structures, equipment and teachers pay and benefits. It would also open up the teaching field to competition among good teachers for the better schools.

By getting the government out of schools and putting the choice in the parents hand, you will see the educational standards of children rise in an environment geared not to pass a test for gov't funding but to graduate intelligent, creative, inspired children that lead other parents to send their kids to those schools that achieve higher results.

This was tried in Washington D.C. a few years ago with great success (graduation rates had dramatically increased as well as children excelling at academic milestones) but was stopped when the government felt they were losing their grip on those funds and took school choice away.

[-] -2 points by 1sealyon (434) 1 year ago

The sad thing is that the rich have the ability to choose the best schools for their their children (the Obama children attend Friends Sidwell at $33k per year) while the poor are stuck in places that you would not leave your dog.

[-] -1 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

That's the point...if the parents are given the education funds in the form of vouchers to use to send their kids to whatever school they prefer, kids from poor or middle class families have the same shot to go to whatever school the parent decides is best for them. This opens up competition and also gets the gov't out of the classroom where their only experience is bureaucracy and inefficiency.

This worked in Washington DC when it was tried a few years ago. It was a success until the gov't shut it down. Gov't was threatened by the success. Gov't doesn't want to lose any power.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

End the testing. Children are not cans of beans, The faux privatization of schools in the form of charters is a documented failure.

[-] -2 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

We're not talking about charter schools here. We are talking about vouchers to parents so they can make a choice of where to send their kids. It was done as a trial in DC but then ended because the gov't doesn't want to lose its power over education money and the program was a success.

There is a lot of success in the DC school voucher program. Not only was there success in the outcomes of the students but the cost was actually less per student than the gov't was spending per student on public education. I've attached link to one article but there are many. Google it yourself.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577585582150808386.html

By putting choice in parents hand, more money goes to education than to gov't bureaucracy and inefficiency.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I disagree. Choice is how it is sold to the public.

Starting under Reagan, hence the link to the report above, there was a deliberate movement to privatize education. There has always been the option of sending your child to a private school.

Now, states do not have to comply with NCLB-------and I am not in agreement with NCLB----but they do. They just do not want to be held accountable. That is like giving you a blank check. Here take the cash and we trust you.

This is why there is an attack on the public education system and the teachers. Further, the creators of the text books are also those that create the tests which is where your money goes. Testing that is designed for failure which then further opens the door for more "choice" to steal from the public coffers. That "choice" is not held to the same standards as the public education system.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Choice, vouchers, privatization is all just attempts by the enemies of the 99%. Don't believe those lies! They do not even address the problem.

It's an old song I've been listening to since I'm a child. It is an effort to stop paying for the education of poor/minority kids.

Education failure has occurred in the last 40 years as school desegregation took hold, parents with money moved their kids to better schools, and those poor students had their school districts underfunded and ignored.

The truth is education is great in America, if you are white with money. All the numbers that show education failure is a result of neglect of poor districts.

Privatizing, choice, vouchers do not address these problems. In fact they exasperate the problem. They allow a few more to leave bad schools which in turn will be underfunded further and hurt the remaining students.

None of these schemes account for the poorest students who are the only ones really in need. None of these schemes provide enough money for a good school, nor guarantee a good school to use the inadequate monies.

As always these schemes appear to simply be an effort to help a few of those *the best) in struggling schools, leaving behind the kids struggling most, and an attempt to bust teachers unions.

It's just an anti 99% scheme. Most people are smart enough to reject these unfair schemes whose roots are in the racism that has destroyed education for millions of Americas poor.

[-] -1 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

If the education money if given to the parent to spend on his kid's education than he will send his kid to the best school in town. Money is no longer the issue and the kid benefits with a better education. The school benefits by growing and hiring more teachers. The schools also compete for the students keeping the costs competitive.

You say that white people send their kids to the better schools. What I'm saying is...give the education funds to the parents to send their own kid to those better schools. Let the schools compete for the money by having better facilities and teachers to attract more students. Now it's all kids have a shot at going to the better schools.

Do you get it now?

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

No scheme I have seen provides enough money to all students, nor guarantees that "good" schools are available and that those "good" schools MUST take them.

Sorry. In fact what you suggest would cost a great deal more than current education and provides no protection to the poorest students struggling most.

[-] -2 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

Not true...when it was tried in Washington DC, it was successful and even more, it cost less per student in the private schools than the gov't was paying in the public schools. The bureaucracy in the gov't is where all the school money goes. Get rid of that and give the money to the parents to only be used for school tuition.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I disagree. I am familiar with that DC failure but I don't remember it proving ANY of what you contend.

I have seen lotsa evidence that private schools have obscene exec pay that public schools do not. I've also seen evidence that indicates they have are no better than decent public schools.

I am against introducing the profit motive to educating our students. We got enough problems without introducing the greedy, selfish, elements of capitalism into it.

Sorry. Do you wanna provide some proof? I'm willing to look at it.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (28238) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

From the wallstreet journal? Really? Wonder what their interest could be in for profit schools/corpoRATions. Huh?

[-] 0 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

Evaluation
Public school vouchers have so far been proven very effective. In many studies, the results have shown incredible savings and some studies have indicated that students participating in a voucher program are performing better than students in their district who are not. For example, in a federal study of the D.C. voucher program found that voucher students have pulled significantly ahead of their public school peers in reading and are performing at least as well as public school students in math. The study also reports that the average tuition at the voucher schools is $6,620 which is 1/4 of D.C. spends per pupil on education ($26,555)

http://policyoptions.pbworks.com/w/page/48110344/Public%20School%20Vouchers

Yahoo Daily News 2012-10-23: The highly successful D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program (OSP) enrolled 1,584 children from low-income families for the 2012-2013 school year.

School Voucher Programs and the Effects of a Little Healthy Competition. Do voucher programs force public schools into a zero-sum game by redirecting public funds and promising students to private schools? Or do school-choice options spur healthy competition by pressuring public schools to improve? Using data from Florida's Tax Credit Scholarship Program, David Figlio of Northwestern University argues that public schools improve their performance when faced with the prospect of losing students to nearby private schools through voucher programs, and that greater competition results in greater gains in public school students' test scores. In other words, the competitive effects of school choice could create a system where everybody wins.

http://www.global-womens-network.org/wiki/School_Voucher_Programs_and_the_Effects_of_a_Little_Healthy_Competition

EDUCATION SECRETARY Arne Duncan has decided not to admit any new students to the D.C. voucher program, which allows low-income children to attend private schools. The abrupt decision — made a week after 200 families had been told that their children were being awarded scholarships for the coming fall — comes despite a new study showing some initial good results for students in the program and before the Senate has had a chance to hold promised hearings. For all the talk about putting children first, it’s clear that the special interests that have long opposed vouchers are getting their way…

That, after all, is what this program is about: giving poor families the choice that others, with higher salaries and more resources, take for granted. It’s a choice President Obama made when he enrolled his two children in the elite Sidwell Friends School. It’s a choice Mr. Duncan had when, after looking at the D.C. schools, he ended up buying a house in Arlington, where good schools are assumed. And it’s a choice taken away this week from LaTasha Bennett, a single mother who had planned to start her daughter in the same private school that her son attends and where he is excelling. Her desperation is heartbreaking as she talks about her daughter not getting the same opportunities her son has and of the hardship of having to shuttle between two schools.

It’s clear, though, from how the destruction of the program is being orchestrated, that issues such as parents’ needs, student performance and program effectiveness don’t matter next to the political demands of teachers’ unions. Congressional Democrats who receive ample campaign contributions from the National Education Association and the American Federation of Teachers laid the trap with budget language that placed the program on the block. And now comes Mr. Duncan with the sword.

http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2009/04/11/destruction-of-the-dc-voucher-system/

Full article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/10/AR2009041003073.html

Support and success: The program has received support from a number of prominent D.C. politicians, including former mayor Anthony A. Williams, former D.C. Council member Kevin P. Chavous and former D.C. Board of Education president Peggy Cooper Cafritz.[1] It was opposed by Mayor Vincent C. Gray. [9] A 2010 evaluation of the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program stated that "there is no conclusive evidence that the OSP affected student achievement." The program targeted K-5, but by 2009 about 500 of the 2,300 participants were old enough to have graduated from high school; these graduation rates were higher than the control group. Researchers surveyed parents to obtain graduation data; of the 63 percent who responded, the student graduation rate was 82 percent versus 70 percent for the control group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._Opportunity_Scholarship_Program

In an op-ed published in the Wall Street Journal on January 11, 2011, Rhee endorsed vouchers when she supported "giving poor families access to publicly funded scholarships to attend private schools," adding that "All children deserve the chance to get a great education; no family should be forced to send kids to a school they know is failing."[44] In a February 2011 speech before Georgia's legislature, she indicated she had supported the DC voucher program as a supplement to the charter school alternative. She said that if a parent did not win the lottery to get their child into a charter school, then "who I am to deny them a $7,500 voucher to send their child to a great Catholic school."[45]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Rhee

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I can't speak for the people on this site" but I can tell you that I've been against these right wing voucher schemes because they have not been proven to work.

They always ski, the best studentys (even in DC) and they always unfairly compare to those students left behind. (Whose parents by the way ARE NOT happy with the result of the voucher plan, because their kids were left behind.

And NO voucher/charter/private school is much better than a good public school.

Better to fix the publix school system.

And no the NAACP does not want people to not think for themselves, that is just offensive.

We disagree. I support fixing bad schools for all students, you appear to support a plan that wouldonly help a few struggling students.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

All these programs do not guarantee that parents will be given enough money to send their kids to a private school. None guarantee there will be enough private schools for all poor kids in bad schools (in fact there will NOT be enough private school spots). None of theseprograms include a guarantee that a given private school will take every student who wants to attend.

ALL of these programs skim the best students, them measure against the worst remaining students. False comparison. NONE of these voucher programs have proven they are measurably better than a good public school.

Best easiest approach is to improve the existing school system. This scheme would make things worse for the current victims of out biased education.

Sorry. We disagree. Ad these respected people (from your article) disagree.

President Barack Obama: "Private school vouchers are not an effectiveway to improve student achievement. The Administration opposes targeting resources to help a small number of individuals attend private schools rather than creating access to great public schools for every child."

Former public school teacher and reform activist Jonathan Kozol: I believe that vouchers are the single worst, most dangerous idea to have entered education discourse in my adult life. 7

Kweisi Mfume, president and CEO of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP): "Voucher proposals take many forms, and some are designed to deliberately disguise the basic realities that will result over time. The best students will be skimmed off -- those whom private schools find desirable for their own reasons. Since families will have to make up additional costs, those in the upper-and middle-income brackets will be helped the most -- as long as their kids don't have personal, behavioral, or educational challenges that cause the private school to pass them by."

Toledo, Ohio Board of Education President Bob Vasquez : "That bill regarding school vouchers is a step in dismantling public education." --Regarding an Ohio bill that would expand the program to include a family income of up to $95,000

[-] 0 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

Since there don't seem to be many good public schools anymore, the point is to give our kids a chance at a good education. You're so negative. Obama stopped funding the program against the cries of the parents in DC that liked the program because he wants the gov't to control everything and apparently so do you. He also got a lot of campaign contributions from the NEA and the NFT. His kids can go to Sidwell but don't let the poor family down the street from him get a good education.

So, yeah, let's let our kids waste their time and our tax dollars on failed schools and keep paying the bureaucracy all the education money to live like fatcats. The gov't runs nothing well, efficient or productive. Let's complain about the gov't on this site but not do anything to fix it.

By allowing parents to send their kids to the school of their choice, public schools have an interest in bringing those schools up to par with private schools. This improves the existing school system. Competition always brings costs down and standards up. But obviously you are against competition. The gov't knows best.

None of the quotes you put in your post are proven in the DC program. There were no students skimmed off. The parents loved the program. In fact, the cost was less than the cost of the public school. No children were turned away. The graduation rates improved. The NAACP doesn't want to lose it's following by educating people to think for themselves. The Ohio Board of Education doesn't want to lose his fat paycheck.

The people that got to use the voucher program in DC are it's biggest supporters and these were people living in poverty that could not otherwise send their children to a good school.

It's hard to argue with people on this site that don't think logically and constantly want to take freedom away or at least limit it.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Your article was unviewable because it is behind a pay wall. The headline was about NY, not DC. You got anythong on the DC failure that can actually be read.?

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Even the good schools suck compared to what they should be.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Schools are fine in non poor districts! All numbers are dragged down by the poor districts who suffer for many reasons but no reason that will be addressed by these anti union, anti big govt, anti 99% privatization schemes!

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Bullshit. Its the same memorize and repeat bullshit all over. There isnt critical thinking in this country. My friends that went to school in Pittsford and Penfield will tell that straight up. All crap. And those are two great schools in upstate NY, which is way ahead of the curve compared to the rest of the country.

Granted, school is kind of what you make it, but the entire system is bullshit and controlled from the top down instead of horizontal.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

We don't have critical thinking due to the testing.

This has actually found success once implemented. It is getting it implemented that is the problem. http://www.infed.org/thinkers/gardner.htm

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Very true. Figuring it out is easy, organizing and getting it implemented are the hard parts.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Just say no to the testing. Parents nationwide are pulling their kids out on testing days. Back public education and do a smack down on charter, voucher, programs. Now, you have to watch the real estate scams which tax payers pay for the leasing of the "choices".

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

There is some truth in the lack of teaching critical thinking. But the real problem is in the neglect of the poorest districts.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

What happens when all the kids swarm to the best performing school over the summer, and the school is completely swamped? And who is transporting these kids all over the fuckin place.

Even our best schools suck. Letting them chose which pile of shit to shovel down doesnt mean its not shit anymore.

The "illusion" of choice when the choices fuckin suck. Seems like that relates to something else....hmm....

[-] -1 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

That school will probably build more classrooms and hire more teachers. As for transportation, if a parent wants his kid to go to a school across town, he will get him there.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

So basically most will still be stuck at the same school, because parents simply cannot be driving their kids across town for school before work (thats why we have busses now). Not the majority of em anyways

And they are going to build all that and hire all that over a summer? Constantly fluctuating numbers is a logistical nightmare.

Perhaps some kind of a contract should be in place, like a four year commitment, so that everyone isnt bouncing all around all over the fuckin place? That being said, thats just going to cause even more problems.

If the system didnt fuckin suck so hard, this wouldnt even be an issue

[-] -1 points by SingleVoice (158) 1 year ago

You sure are a pessimist. I'm sure that there would be other parents sending their kids to the same school from the same neighborhood that they could car pool. And if the school really wanted the kids to go to it, they would probably provide transportation for them.

These schools wouldn't be expanding until an influx of students started using their facility. What do you think happens now. Private and public schools enlarge when capacity is expanded.

You don't need a contract. If the school lets the parent down, the parent takes his kid and money to another school.

It 's because the system sucks that we need to do this. Don't you get it? It forces competition.

[-] -1 points by 1sealyon (434) 1 year ago

There has been virtually no improvement in test scores in nearly 40 years, we are 31 st worldwide in math, and 23 rd in science. We suck, face it. Gov is a huge failure at education (and pretty much everything else) and should be fired immediately.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/jun/14/world-laps-us-in-math-science/

http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/us-students-still-lag-beh_n_1695516.html

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

What is needed is to apply the structure of Open Source collaboration to the education system. The Open Source community has proven time and again that intellectual freedom can create amazing results. The structure itself demands just enough coherence to bring results to fruition. The education system and the entire government has yet to take advantage of the things learned from the very internet they gave birth to. Social networking, open collaboration, efficient and intuitive design. There are far to many ways to explain it and things to be gained from it to post in a comment but that is the general idea.