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Forum Post: Seditious Conspiracy & Treason Have Been Instituted

Posted 9 months ago on Oct. 12, 2013, 9:05 a.m. EST by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I am no legal scholar. Yet it is clear, a Seditious Conspiracy has been undertaken with the result of Treason, and this most heinous act has been perpetrated under color of authority.

To begin - Cornell University indicates current law regarding Seditious Conspiracy is as follows:

18 USC § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

Cornell University also indicates current law regarding Treason is as follows:

18 USC § 2381 - Treason

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

As to the history of Sedition: an examination of the various acts passed by Congress:

  1. Sedition Act - approved by Congress July 14, 1798 aims at a conspiracy of ideas incorporated into speech with the intent to oppose the federal government, to scandalize or to cause it to fall into disrepute. This act was allowed to expire in 1801.
  2. Sedition Act of 1918, as Representative Percy Quin (D-MS) made clear was also about speech. It was, in essence, a prohibition against lies that hindered U.S. intervention in France at the close of World War One. Wiki indicates that major news media favored this measure - and that despite their own dependence on the principle of Free Speech. It was repealed December 13, 1920.

    • Prosecution under this act, appealed to the Supreme Court, gave rise to the term in a dissenting opinion, coined by Oliver Holmes, which may be paraphrased as: free trade in the market place of ideas which holds that if debate is transparent and reason unfettered, then lies cannot stand and therefore there is no need of any government restriction.
  3. Other legislative efforts have been undertaken, to include acts by Congress in 1940, and 2007. Current law, as I understand it, is as stated under 18 USC § 2384.


It must be acknowledged at the outset that the Principle of Free Speech, as it is enshrined in the United States Constitution, is vital to any properly functioning democracy and must be upheld. Toward that end, let us review the first of our civil liberties:

The First Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

That is our First Amendment. Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech. From this we may infer that while we are indeed free to threaten the assassination of our elected officials, we are also free to accept responsibility for such acts, whether we will or no. Against this there is no debate that I am aware of, and I know of no argument that might be put forth contrary to the established practice. And so we may say without reservation, that those who exercise free speech in a manner that is a clear threat to the functioning of our government, or the exercise of the will of the people, may face consequence.

The current shutdown of the federal government by a minority faction in one house of Congress would, we have repeatedly been assured, end, today, were the matter of financing the federal budget brought to a vote. The speaker of the house, Rep. John Boehner, (r) Ohio, has refused. From Bloomberg to CBS the reports are the same. Congress has the votes to pass the budget but the matter will not be brought to a vote.

The Speaker's abdication of responsibility is not without consequence. Adverse impacts on public health in the matter of disease tracking by the CDC; troop morale, U.S. intelligence, are just three of the consequences that may be shown. It is clear that no credible argument may be put forth positing these effects as beneficial. And yet, in this current climate, it would not be surprising to find just such an argument put forth.

In the forum post This Is What Class Warfare Looks Like it is shown that this present government shutdown is the result of long term planning, and that it has been inspired by wealthy interests who have employed think tanks and other means to engage in debate that is not transparent, to lie with conviction and so persuade the public on the basis of fabrication and deceit.

This current shutdown is but the last in a series of incidents, any one of which can be said to meet the definition of Sedition, and they include:


to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,

With the force of LIES and the threat of violence from the hands of madmen, the authority of the United States Government has been opposed, the execution of our laws has been hindered and delayed, the consequences have been grave and stand as a threat to our pubic health and national security.

And this does not take into account the threat, which has been uttered, of default on the national debt - which itself, as remarkable as it must seem, may even be shown to be profitable, while further and significantly degrading our national security.

Clearly the sum of such facts does stand as comfort in the eyes of our enemies, and provides material aid in the form of degraded troop moral, degraded intelligence gathering capability, shuttered defense contractors, and so on.

The current government shutdown is no more than a manufactured crisis designed to benefit a select few at the expense of the entire nation, and as such meets the criteria of both Sedition and Treason -

under the latter it stands as an offense punishable by hanging.

If the federal government is so consumed by paralysis as a result of this long term conspiracy that it cannot respond to crime of this nature that does stand as a clear and present danger to the nation, then the public has little choice but to take matters into their own hands. The Public must seek extreme notoriety, in the hunt for those responsible.



Read the Rules
[-] 4 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

Men from Kenneth Starr to John Boehner must be investigated for both Sedition and for Treason. Grover Norquist and the Koch brothers must not find themselves exempt.

If time permits I may lay out the sketch illustrating the need for an examination of several of these and other individuals, including current members of the Supreme Court, who it must be remembered have among other things upheld the insane premise that corporations have tongues or that in fact, money can speak - thus bringing about the usurpation of Congressional Authority under the Constitution to over see election with their decision most strangely named: Citizens United.

All of this has inspired such a bizarre set of results that it becomes immediately imperative to wave away the steam and the stench of this utter nonsense as the bullshit which it most plainly is, and proceed immediately to try these individuals, and others, for embarking this nation on the path to ruin.

[-] 3 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 months ago

I don't like the idea of punishing people for being human, but the treason and crime against humanity that's going on absolutely has to stop. I signed the petition, but I still believe we need force to be reckoned with, such as a planned strategy of mass strike. Something that can change the system enough to function fluently, with actual progress.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17440) 9 months ago

These people are clearly attempting to overthrow the government and they should be treated as such.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

My argument is that it does not matter if that is their intent or not, no more than it may matter if they have deliberately engaged in treason or not. The end result has been aid and comfort to the enemy, that this result has been quite obvious, and that no branch of the federal government has been immune to their influence. Not the executive, not the legislative, not the judicial.

Conservatives have indeed implemented a long train of abuse for which they must now answer. I will argue that we cannot hope to preserve either this union, or our freedom, any other way.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17440) 9 months ago

I would say that they do know and it is their intent.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

I do seem to recall individuals of influence insisting some time ago that surely the decision makers on both sides of the aisle were patriots - and if it can be shown that such calls were made on the basis of fear over the appearance that the reality may be otherwise, then perhaps what you say may even be proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17440) 9 months ago

Let's define force.

Is there a clear number of where we say...........democide?

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

you've made that term up and now I cannot recall what it means. It sounds like the murder of a national government.

What is interesting is that the force that has been used in an attempt to dismember the federal government has been the force of law.

  • Economic crisis and political revolution have combined to deflect the currents of legal thought into new channels. Modern dictatorships, proceeding uniformly on teh assumption that "the regime is precarious which has not begun by transforming the law and by investing it with its principles," have sought to consolidate their positions behind a facade of distinctive legislation nad juridical theory. Legal transformation not only insures the revolution, but actually makes it. In any event, this is one of the reasons why National Socialists in Germany have denied the revolutionary character of the German "revolution" of 1918-1919. There can be no complaint on this score in Italy, where the Fascist Revolution of 1922 has completely established its position within the frame-work and substance of public and private law. Juristic conceptions have guided the transition.

  • . . . In the second stage, he comes to the conclusion that behind the interplay of political forces were economic forces, capital and labor, struggling for mastery and that fascism represents the victory of capital. At that point, Fascism is regarded as the rational formula invented by capital to justify its repression of labor. Beyond this stage few are willing or able to pass. . . .

I had seen the claim that fascism depends on the rule of law as it takes over a governmental system. It could have come from Naomi Wolf, I can't remember. In searching I ran across the above, and that seems to perfectly describe exactly where we are right now.

And the reason why fascism depends on the rule or the force of law is because of the dependence on stability that capital does exhibit. Without law the instruments of wealth are not secure and therefore there is no confidence in them, and without these instruments it is impossible to harness labor, even when that labor is enslaved.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17440) 9 months ago

I did not make that term up.

Yes, that is fascism. But, is it enough to acquire justice here:

18 USC § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

Either way, stack the charges http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

The wiki is a little confusing. I'm not clear if this is Rummel's definition or not:

  • The objectives of such a plan of democide include the disintegration of the political and social institutions of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups; the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity; and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.[7]

What repelicans have undertaken meets this definition.

As for the charge of Sedition, the appropriate portion of the law is as follows:

  • to destroy by force the Government of the United States . . . to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,

Every time Grover Norquist insists his intent is to shrink the government to a size appropriate for drowning he utters a threat against the United States Government - by virtue of the fact of the Norquist Pledge, and that signatories have found themselves constrained by fear, we can say with absolute certainty that this threat to the United States Government is both real and credible. It is one with grave consequences that reach far beyond the consequences we have witnessed from the current shutdown.

to oppose by force the authority thereof - Other commentators have pointed out that the tea party faction within Congress constantly demands legislation reiterate the authorization upon which any specific piece of legislation depends - most often spelled out in that portion of the U.S. Constitution where the prerogatives and obligations of Congress are specified. This has the effect of casting doubt in the public mind regarding the authority of Congress - as in fact, the Supreme Court Decision demonstrates. The First Article lays out the authority of Congress, and Article III section 2 specifies the authority of the Supreme Court, and my reading is that the Citizens United decision is unConstitutional. If that is correct, as I think that it is, then it stands beside the tea party behavior and represents a pattern, a conspiracy to use the Force of Law itself to discredit the authority of the United States Government.

by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, and the refusal to fund the government is simply the latest effort to delay the ACA, the repelican party has engaged in a lengthy process of using propaganda as well as the legislative and the judicial system to delay and to hinder this law, despite the laws passage and the fact that it has been upheld by the Supreme Court.

I'm positive these are not the only considerations and that these may themselves be constructed in such a way as to leave no doubt. Sedition has taken place. It may, in many instances, reach to the level of treason.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17440) 9 months ago

Raphael Lemkin. Mo' betta' definition. http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.CHAP2.HTM

I'll be back later. I have a bunch o' crap to do. Everybody is sick or coming down with something so, I probably won't be back on until later tonight.


[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 5 months ago

Let us review . . .

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 3 months ago

and so the solution seems simple enough. IF we lynch about ten thousand of the seditious bastards - you know, the smart ones, the bright boys - those thinkers and their money men - and then keep a close eye on the rest of them, we should be fine.

After all, they created the technology - we should be able to keep a very close eye on them indeed.

[-] 0 points by nazihunter (315) 5 months ago

This is yet another case of wanting it both ways. You see, we cite the intelligence of our forefathers while also citing their hypocrisy. Therefore, any politicians who cite our forefathers must be presented with the quandaries you present above and held to task. Why do we always give hypocrisy a pass. It's a good word. Use it. Use it often.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 5 months ago

it seems like they could be a more direct connection to violence

such as forced eviction to take property

[-] 0 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 9 months ago

Fantastic Thread !!! ZD & GF

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

Repelicans launched us into War on Two fronts, and they did so without ever having paid for it. Now they insist the federal government is spending too much money, yet they refuse to consider corporate welfare in any way shape or form, and instead insist that those sources of revenue which are separate and distinct from the general fund, namely social security and medicare, be cut, as a solution to government spending.

Raising revenue is not, in their view, an option.

Corporate Welfare remains inviolate.

Base closures recommended by the Pentagon are refused as defense spending soars.

The economic crisis was engineered out of resentment for federal oversight over the process of home loans, and whether it was intended that this process of fraud be as successful and as destructive as it ultimately became remains a matter of question. There is little doubt that Goldman Sux understood very well exactly what was happening as they marketed their derivatives and default swaps.

Whether this crisis, created by men, was fully understood, when and by whom, remains a mystery. Yet we see plainly the evidence of deliberate, repelican intent to sabotage both the government and the economy.

This latest government shutdown with its threat of default stands as only the most recent proof.

Those responsible for funding this campaign of propaganda and those candidates that depend on it must be held accountable. They must be arrested. They must be charged. When they are convicted they must be sentenced to that maximum penalty under the law.

In the case of men like Kenneth Star, they must hang for their crimes against this nation.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

In absolute and utter serious, we must.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

unmentioned in this piece is the very strange nature of current events which shows one group attempting to violate the first amendment in the name of Christianity, affiliated by party with others using their free speech to engage in Sedition while exercising their right to assemble and here.

[-] -1 points by shooz (17947) 9 months ago

We are not alone in our belief that these behaviors are seditious in nature.


There is now a petition calling for prosecution. It's from moveon, so I suppose I'll be maligned for posting it, but here it is.


[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

I signed some other one. That is the second one I've seen. Now I've signed two.

the fukers Must be spanked.

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 months ago

Wait, so if I signed one, and the other has more signatures, I might as well have spent the afternoon playing with legos? Multiple petitions for the same thing? Do they eventually cross-check and combine them, or is this totally counterproductive? Or is that the point, spreading us as thin as possible, a subtle sabotage.

That's what power of the people is all about, our combined effort, unity. I've said it a million times now, we need one single organization that the mass can focus on and pay attention to, and we need to combine and focus our effort like a laser. This is why they are focusing on stripping our rights and communication, to prevent people from uniting against their blatant taking over of our government.

This is what Kennedy speaks about in his SSS speech, and warns us of. This enemy, which uses infiltration and coveting. That while the news should be careful of what it reports in the interest of national security, it must always remain free, to protect us from becoming blinded, such as they are attempting to do to us right freakin now, such as net neutrality.

[-] 0 points by shooz (17947) 9 months ago

If you still have the link to the other one, I'll sign that one too.

The last place we need seditious behavior, is in what painfully passes as a Congress.

They should be thrown in jail for what they've done.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

I can't remember. It was before I put up this thread.

The solution seems obvious - information is a commodity. False advertising used to be illegal. Falsely advertising a policy initiative, or a candidate, or misrepresenting the facts, in a deliberate manner, packaging lies for broad consumption, merits capital punishment.

Especially when it touches on public policy or servants.

And Wasting 24 billion tax payer dollars merits some form of sanction beyond what may be imposed at the ballot box. Then there is the matter of our national defense capability and how that was impacted.

And then there are those who were pushing for this from the sidelines, for years. They, too, must be punished.


[-] -1 points by gladiator55 (14) 9 months ago

There ain't no conspiracy theory brother. It's the capitalist system that's flawed. It's the political system that's flawed. You need to embrace anarchy my dear friend.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

you either fail to appreciate, or else simply refuse to acknowledge, the very clear opportunity that does exist at this precise moment in U.S. history.

If you fukers would just get in line, we could apply shock doctrine ourselves.

YOu are like a drag anchor just when the winds got favorable.

You make no sense.

[-] 0 points by gladiator55 (14) 9 months ago

Woah tiger! You have a big roar, but do you bite or just roar from the comfort of your LazyBoy. Roar only tigers aren't real useful. Go out there and bite some ass! You gotta protest boy!

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13630) from South Burlington, VT 9 months ago

I just did. Why don't you be useful. Go tell your friends. I don't really care who they are or even which side they are on. Tell them all.

I'm sure they will be useful, no matter who they are.