Forum Post: Resource Based Economy sub forum?
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 21, 2011, 2:25 p.m. EST by rbe
(687)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Can we possibly get a Resource Based Economy sub forum? It's an idea that a lot of posters here agree with, and would be a positive improvement of the site if we could have a sub forum to discuss this in an organized way.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/resource-based-economy-yes-or-no/
UPDATE: I just scrolled down for about a minute on the forum, and the "Resource Based Economy Yes Or No" thread has more views than any other thread aside from one posted by the site itself. There's a lot of interest in this topic. Not all are posts that are in agreement but the majority are.
You might want to link up with existing ZEITGEIST movement site(s) too.
I know Peter has spoken and created a video for the possible transition phase of the movement, which cross talks into RBE.
The Venus Project and Zeigeist Movement both have their own heavily moderated forums. I should know, my ip was banned from TZM forums after I started asking questions they didn't like or couldn't answer. Please take your cult bullshit over there.
I'm interested in those questions you posed
One of the questions I asked was concerning the whole "techocity" idea of completely automated manufacturing and a supercomputer that made all the decisions. I asked how people would cope with having no work to do seeing as robots would be doing all the labor. People need a sense of value by the work they do. I also raised a concern of the centralized supercomputer being hacked by someone who wanted control of the city and how that would be dealt with if there was no human government or authority. Another question was in regards to Jaqcue Fresco's personal finances and how he basically stole thousands of donated money from his followers in the 70s, which he used to build his home in Venus, Florida. Those people never saw that money again and were completely disenfranchised by Fresco's greed. I asked how he could preach about a "resource based economy" while charging $100 for autographed photos of himself. I brought up a few other issues I had and was abused by regular posters before being banned from the site.
There would no doubt be plenty of work to do for those interested.
While no system is incorruptible, you can probably avoid a lot of risks by designing a transparent system that is not only multi-agent and not networked to allow for "remote central and total control" but having a lot of people supervising the system from many different points.
I would not concern myself overly much with what Fresco did or did not do 40 years ago. The general idea of a RBE does not start and end with him and his designs.
You still cant think outside of the box. The concept that work is the only way to measure ones value is just an example of how conditioning works to keep the flawed system running. Instead of work, people would be more educated and innovation would thrive. Value systems of the future could evolve, whereby workers wouldn
t ' have ' to work to survive, they would work for other reasons that have nothing to do with proving Im superior then you because I have the monetary means to fill my life with material objects. If there were more educated people, the odds of someone getting away with hacking the distrubution computer would be lessened. I assume there would be a great deal of oversight built into the system to deter hackers. A future value system may not be as greed or power oriented so that there may lessen the risk of a rogue breaking the system. Maybe work as we know it could be replaced by, extensive world travel,leisure, even space exploration . As for Fresco, he has some interesting ideas and if he charges people 100 bucks for an autograph does not make his beliefs invalid. There lots of things the ZGM and VP claim I find absurd but the general idea is something that should be considered as an alternative to this clusterphuccked system.wow
personal attacks makes me not want to consider the argument
What personal attacks? And if you decide not to investigate the matter because of my own opinions then that's really your problem.
I decide to stop reading cause a person is not an idea
I don't understand what you mean.
there is more on this site than I could ever read
I didn't know that, but is there any evidence Fresco did these things?
Yup, last paragraph. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacque_Fresco#Sociocyberneering
"At the apex of the organization's membership, they began investing in 40 acres of land in Naples. The organization set out to construct an experimental community in which they would live and expand. They encountered a setback in 1978 when members feared that the Collier County zoning board would complicate implementation. The result was a partial dissolution of Sociocyberneering membership. The investment was abandoned and the land was resold. Fresco sold his home and new land was located in rural Venus."
After the problems with zoning and the "partial dissolution of membership" (he dumped the main investors), he took the money and ran. He's been scamming people ever since.
Ran? He just relocated and continued doing the same thing that he's been passionate about whole his life. And what investors. Where is your source? I don't see anybody mentioned any investors, except of cause the trolling wordpress web-sites. Anyway...It's not about Venus Project any more. The RBE can do just fine without TVP, TZM, Jacque Fresco or Peter Joseph. Trolls needs to stop trying to discredit the people. It's not a person of political party. It's an idea. This idea is the only solution that the world have. People need to understand it.
exactly.. this is an "idea", people need to grasp.. no person is perfect or immune from "bad press"
A good idea is something you can implement rather than just talk about. They told us in school 30 years ago robots would be doing all the work and it still hasn't happened. It is just a dream to keep you from acting yourself. http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
On the contrary, machines 'ARE' doing most of the work which is a major reason why new job markets must constantly be created. Otherwise too many people would be unemployed/underemployed.
This technological unemployment is only bad in a monetary system.
I'll decide how to occupy my own time thanks very much.
That's probably you posting that link in every of your post, so they wont miss something they have been interested all along. It would be understandable if you posted it ones as your opinion. But when you posting it in almost every second your post over 6 time, it's called spamming. No matter how good that thread is.
Spamming is just marketing that the powers that were do not like. http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/International/16-Oct-2011/From-Argentina-to-Wall-Street
Like spamming threads with your "family-food-gardens"?
How is it a dictatorship when there is no dictator? Fresco just gave us the idea. That's it. It's done. Now it's up to us to make it real.
His ideas are a lot better than the dictatorship of Fresco.
People are interested in simple and effective solutions they can implement to become free from economic slavery and control. http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
Hes 90 something. Cant envision him going out and buying the new Bugatti Veyron supersport.
I have read and re-read this and nowhere does it state that he (as you put it) "stole millions of donated money from his followers".
The following is an account of what happened from someone who claims to have been one of the original members back in the 70s. Knowing what I know about defamation and slander laws, I think it's safe to say that what is said by this person is true.
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/tvp-ex-1970-1980s-member-speaks/
Either that, or this is "just another Wordpress blog" set up to denounce the left and to frame RBE supporters as "cultists".
I should probably clarify that I did not mean he took millions from that original group. He's made at least a couple of million from donations through his non-profit organization and sales from his for-profit company since he began giving lectures and selling his material. I'll edit my original post for clarification.
If you actually read the blog, the person giving the account (a person going by the name of Euripide Sneed) is very supportive of Fresco. I just read in between the lines. If people choose to blindly follow someone without using critical thinking then I guess that's their own business.
I only skimmed the blog.
While I support RBE, I do not necessarily support Fresco's vision of it per-se. Especially the part about centralized computers. If the internet has taught us anything, it's that decentralization is key.
I just think he's on the right track. As for the dangers of people "blindly follow[ing]", I think that our economic situation and the amount of trust that the US has put in markets, bankers, speculators and politicians over the years is a prime example of this.
True, energy cannot be created or destroyed but it is all around us waiting to be harnessed. The ebb and flow of the tides for millions of years on Earth can produce a massive amount of energy if only it is harnessed. The sun produces a massive amount of energy, as does the wind currents on this planet. Therefore energy is many times more stable and dependable than the very finite resources we have on this planet.
As far as I'm concerned, the whole RBE thing is a very nice theory but that's it. It's not a practical solution to the world's problems. Have you ever heard of the idea of an energy based currency? I think it's a much more practical solution. Resources are limited, energy is not. Also, the value we attach to resources changes over time, The value of energy remains fairly constant with the passage of time.
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter cannot be created or destroyed. You can only convert matter into energy and back.
And yes, both are quite limited.
Thus, an "energy based currency" and a "resource based economy" are two different names for the same thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics
People in a society like TVP would determine their own value. They would "cope" by being free to do whatever they wish. One day you could travel to see the Great Wall of China, the next day after you could go scuba diving in Australia. The day after that you could pursue a degree in whatever field you wish. The technology is used to benefit all humanity and to free people to realize their full potential. Not to sell their labor and be boxed into one type of occupation that benefits a select few.
Computer systems would not be "hacked". TVP proposes socializing people in a such a way that our value system would not be like it is today. There would be no benefit to hacking any computer system because access to all information and resources is available to all people.
Having visited TVP and spoken at length with Mr. Fresco and Ms. Meadows in their very interesting (yet modest) home, I can assure you they are not sitting on millions of dollars that they "stole". In their younger years they worked and raised money for TVP at the same time. They are social activists and have devoted their lives, labor and money to benefiting humanity. TVP is a non-profit organization. All funds they raised have gone to building their research facility and creating awareness of the problems that TVP hopes to solve. Earlier this year they returned from a trip presenting the ideas of TVP to very eager audiences in Europe and Asia. The money is necessary at this point in order to continue their work. After all, we are still living in a monetary system.
People would not do that kind of travel because seriously have you flown lately? TSA is wack.
TVP would not use air travel for the kind of trips I mentioned. The technology is outdated. Mag-lev trains could carry passengers as fast or faster than airplanes. Several nations are currently using mag-lev trains right now. The technology is clean, quiet and safe. Sadly, there are currently no plans for this type of train in the US. See the information on TVP website.
Most of the traveling would be done by MagLev trains in vacuum tubes.
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-04/trans-atlantic-maglev
Well I guess I'm saving my vote for the congressman that runs on the Mag-Lev Train to Australia + Supercomputer Controlled City That Makes All My Shit For Me platform.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
This is very dumb I'm sorry, I don't know how else to put it.
I disagree and so do many others. It's logical, our current system is not.
bahaha
"Well this is working better than anything ever has on the planet so it's time we move on to something else."
You misquoted me. I said "Capitalism is the greatest system we've ever had, now it's time to move to a better one. The whole timeline of human civilization has been about moving to better systems and adapting."
Our current system built the largest and most powerful economy/country the world has ever seen. How is a system with that result not "logical"?
It just needs some work is all.
Capitalism is the greatest system we've ever had, now it's time to move to a better one. The whole timeline of human civilization has been about moving to better systems and adapting. Did you watch the video I posted? It's a 15 minute video and you replied that it's dumb 2 minutes after I posted it.
The Biggest Lie Is That “Civilization” is Good for You http://www.countercurrents.org/kotke211011.htm
No cults! Only roll-up-your-sleeves RBE building Go big, but in a small way. We did it.
http://www.themultitude.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=348
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Republic-of-Olancho/149833091753264
www.republicofolancho.com
Yep attempts at saving the world is a cult, cause you say o.. Yep... No other reason or logic... But hey if your right then everyone else is wrong I bet.
The zeitgeist movement doesn't have an official global forum.
That "heavily moderated forums" was specifically for people how already understand the concept. And not for trolls who use this^ kind of language. You should have read forum rules before posting. ;)
so only for people who drink the koolaid?
nobody allowed to find ways in which the system could fail?
everyone nods their head in agreement and says yes this is a fantastic system?? that's how the euro came about.
thumbs down
The global forum was intended for communication and exchange of ideas between international chapters and not to be flooded with questions that have been asked thousand times before answers for which could be easily found.
thumbs up
Dude have you ever seen the Matrix? Do you have ANY IDEA what you're advocating here?!
I was actually very interested in TZM when I first joined the forums. I wasn't banned until about a month after when I started talking to the people there and saw how quickly others would be banned for expressing an opposing viewpoint. I started asking my own questions, specifically about Fresco's finances, and was banned immediately.
Have you ever been asked to finance anything at the TZM forums? I don't know about Fresco's finances and I don't care. The important thing is not TVP or TZM, the important is RBE. You can create your own forum or web-site to share the idea. You can go to local chapter's website, facebook, groupsite, youtube channel and comunicate directly with the members.
Actually, Fresco tried to copyright the term "resource based economy" but was sued by some other cult because they had been using the term before him. Eventually you will understand Fresco is only concerned with money and his ideas are based around that greed. The thing about his RBE system is it will not work unless a large majority of countries around the world agree to it, making it completely impossible. Why don't you spend your time on ideas that actually have the possibility of working and stop living in some fantasy world that will never materialize.
I couldn't have said it better myself. From what I've been hearing Fresco is totally unreceptive to alternate or outside ideas. He thinks he has everything figured out and no one else has valid input. He's been working on it for over forty years and it still hasn't come to fruition. It's still about a small group controlling the rest of the community. They're not government departments though, they're "committees." The committee tells you how many rows of corn to plant. The committee tells you how many widgets to build. A rose is a rose. It sounds like repackaged socialism with a technology bent. And despite their claims, we are not technologically advanced enough yet to 100% automate society. Far from it. And the entire concept goes against human nature, something they seem to have forgot to factor in.
@gnomunny, @demonspawn79 Why don't you go research your ignorant claims before screaming them all over the forum. Everyone can spread bullshit misinformation with loaded words definitions for which you don't even know! He tried to copyright to protect it from abuse "resource based economy" by trolls. Fresco never been sued by any "cult" it's just your ignorant fantasy. And The only thing what Fresco is concerned about is to see people live his lifelong dream. And it doesn't even matter what he's concerned about, the RBE is our only viable solution. "human nature" argument has been discussed thousand times, so ether trolling never looking further then you indoctrination allow you to. If Fresco failed to convey his ideas in "forty years" doesn't mean the idea doesn't worth it. That has happened for majority in art peaces and scientific discoveries. So stop posting BS and try to support you claims. And If you have better system in mind, put it forward so I can point you out at fundamental flaws in it.
just as you cannot call people trolls because you do not agree. that would be making "ignorant claims". and it's reworked socialism, no matter who spouts it.
I'm calling people trolls when they spreading intentional misinformation or spreading misinformed opinions before doing actual research with intention to disrupting constructive discussions. You see, if they would ask something, answer for which is hard to find, but no, they are not asking, they repeatedly stating the the misinformation or even making up misinformation. Read the post carefully to understand what I'm talking about. They are not refuting the idea, they trying to discredit the messengers. Now, like many time asked before... What is socialism? Every system that benefit people can be called reworked socialism. Are you here just to stick a label on every new system that is not capitalism?
How do you know I haven't done my research? You assume because I don't agree that I'm "a troll,""misinformed" or full of shit. That's the problem with you people. Totally unreceptive to others' opinions. I once AGAIN quote your hero Fresco: "Never give people the right to their own opinion." Nuff said.
If two people holding opposing opinions about objective matter, then at least one of them is misinformed. I've dome my research and your opinions are unsupported. "From what I've been hearing" - this cannot be considered as a valid information, trough you still decided to post it. "goes against human nature" - there is not human nature, there is only human behavior that depends on the environment.
Anyway, this is not about us telling you to join TVP. We are bringing the alternative system to the table. It's not up to TVP to improve and implement it, it's up to us all. We at zeitgeist movement are receptive to valid input, especially about the transition.
Is it about helping your neighbour without needing to get paid? If so then why the fancy name? If not then what the hell is it? http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
Just buy American Made stuff! Duh. If everyone made an effort to do that, we wouldn't have so much unemployment. You can start at www.AmericanProductionGroup.com Everything they sell is Purely American Made! Look them up on Facebook too if you want. They have it figured out!
Nationalism... I want what's best for everyone in the world, not just my American 'team'
America has done better than the rest world. We have freedom and stuff. I think that is "key". Everybody wants to come here! Why? Maybe America's ideas should be spread to the rest of the world? Not through violence but through speech! American Pride is frowned upon by the college crowd, but I went through all of that. As a Political Science major, I was assigned the Communist Manifesto to read in every class! I didn't even buy the pocket version that was mandated after the third time. I had it memorized. In my papers I learned to tow the socialist line for fear of a bad grade. Now, as a Marine Corps Veteran, who wrote a blank check, "my life" payable to anyone's freedom to protest, I am a small business owner. I haven't made it big but I am earning a living selling Purely American Made Products. I figured that selling only American Made Products would create jobs here. This seems like a good thing to do seeing that government control in countries like China keep their citizens in poverty. Yes, we buy most of our stuff from China but look at how they live. All of our money goes to the government, not the people of China! The freedom that most protesters are using here in America to protest is a gift given to them by Me and My Friends. Government control and redistribution is not the answer! Freedom to control your own destiny is the answer! God bless the rest of the world, I hope they wake up and choose to reject the idea that their government will take care of them. www.AmericanProductionGroup.com
America is the least free country I have ever been too.
It's amazing how the Zeitgeist cult people always respond "you just don't understand" when anybody asks a serious question. "You're just not smart enough, if you were then you would understand." It happened a few times on this page.
For a few days I kept asking the same question over and over: why wouldn't a "resource-based economy" be hijacked by the technologists who run the machines? It seems obvious enough that if the resources were allocated by machines, then the power structure would be controlled by the people who control the machines.
The answers came in two categories: 1) technobabble nonsense that doesn't cut it when you're talking to a computer scientists, and 2) variants of, "You just don't understand enough, please refer to our indoctrination resources..."
Eventually I sort of gave up on it. Conclusions:
1) A resource-based economy would put the power in the hands of the technologists who run the machines that ration the "resources".
2) This thing is a cult. The people involved act like people who are in a cult. The whole thing has a lot of parallels to Scientology.
I agree that there is a cult like vibe around a lot of it. But, I guess that nearly all new movements initially have one. Christianity, islam, libertarianism, objectivism, first American patriotic movement, etc. Seems to go along with all new movements in their early stages.
I don't think that technologists would run the system, I think everyone would be educated on how it runs and then it would pretty much be self sufficient, meaning on auto pilot. I've seen some people on here mention a sort of rotation in any human labor that is still needed initially.
The idea that 100% of the citizens of this utopian society would be experts in how the computers work is obviously unrealistic. And if only a small percentage of people understand how the machines work, then that small percentage of people will be the ones in charge. Why is this such a difficult concept?
It all comes back to this one simple concept: a "resource-based economy" is really a "computer-controlled economy", which places all of the power in the hands of the people who control the computers. This is not a difficult concept to comprehend.
Well, since you put it that way.
What government structure do you propose?
Most societies throughout history have been dependent on benevolent, educated authoritarians to follow through on the opinions of the public, or on an educated public making the right decisions. The alternative is to rely on uninformed opinions being enforced through laws and other forms of coercion.
Do you honestly believe precautions wouldn't be created by participants looking to move past the current corrupt system?
How much of our society is already on the 'cloud', what group(s) successfully hack these areas and for what reason? How often are supermarkets, energy companies, medical facilities, or transportation hubs hacked and to what extent?
Those are good questions to ask.
First off, it is not a utopian society. There never will be a utopia. 100% of the population would not have to understand how every component of the system works, they would just need to be "generalists", so to speak. I think what you're failing to understand is people won't control the computers! The computers will control the computers. Yes, some people would have more knowledge about how the systems run, but they would have no desire to corrupt the system if there is nothing for them to gain.
The computer will control the computers? Humans control computers. Proposing entrusting our entire society to computers intelligent enough to replace humans is a horrifying proposal.
The idea is to eliminate the possibility of malfeasance by conceding all power to machines, assuming that the machines will be impartial. But what if the machines aren't impartial? Then everybody who places their trust in the machines will lose.
A lot of computers control each other under limited human supervision already. They already control large aspects of our lives. Stop lights being one significant example. Machines don't have opinions nor emotions.
Stop lights are controlled by systems that are controlled by people. If smooth flow down the street were the central currency of society, then the people who control those machines would be in charge. The powerful people would pull strings to always get green lights. If you hand over all power to the computers, then you're actually handing all power to the man behind the curtain.
Actually ambulances and firetrucks can already get green lights.
Are these the powerful people behind the curtain you refer to? Quit the paranoia. If you want to ensure safety, help design the system with the necessary precautions.
I will be thrilled to help design the system with the necessary precautions that are all in my favor. How are you going to stop me?
Unless you also program in weapons, attack robots, and other means of suppressing the population your schemes won't go very far. The public will take notice and rise up against your corruption as they will always do.
Plus, you would be working within a group addressing specific tasks. You'd be coding for a specific task. Test cities and communities would apply your code before implementing it globally. 'Bugs' need to be addressed.
The easter eggs that I would embed into the code that makes up the fabric of society would be undetectable. They would only be active when I wanted them to be active.
Probably where I would aim at working would be the team that works on the QA code. Because if I can corrupt the systems that detect problems then I'll be able to insert any functionality that I want.
I've heard some suggestions from Zeitgeist people for why people like me wouldn't be able to take over society, but none of them made any sense. Some say that there would be no motivation for me to covertly control things. That obviously doesn't make any sense. If the machines control all of society then whoever controls the machines controls all of society, and that's a big motivator. Other people provide technobabble responses that don't explain how the system would be impervious to a small group of technologists taking it over.
How do you prevent an oligarchy of technologists? Until you can answer that fundamental question, none of this makes any sense.
You already mentioned the main prevention mechanism.
Give people what they want through the system. Most people when they feel fulfilled in their activities/ way of life, don't look for ways to hurt others or gain power at the expense of others. What you truly fear are the addicts that love power.
So I see your point 'if' there were power-hungry addicts looking to take over the system. But again, these addicts would need to have an understanding of how other aspects of society function.
You are likely familiar with the idea of abstraction. Many have specialized education in the current environment. If everyone had general knowledge then many more people would be able to understand your code (which would be transparent). If everyone remains highly specialized then you would need a firm grasp of other aspects of society to take advantage of it.
Someone today may attempt to gain control over stop lights, transportation hubs, supermarkets, energy companies but unless they have the specific knowledge necessary to alter them in their favor, they won't have access to much more than the public website.
Plus the society itself won't be centralized so there is only one source of food, water, shelter, etc. The point of a RBE is to create abundance. Putting all our eggs in one basket (e.g. one mega-server for the world) wouldn't be too smart. Backup systems/methods can easily be designed into the system.
Stop lights are currently fixed by humans when they break, yes, but they are automated. There will be no man behind the curtain.
Somebody has to design the stop light controller. Do you trust that guy? What if the function of the machine is a lot more important? You're going to need medical machines that decide who lives and who dies. People are going to be very motivated to hack machines with that kind of power over people. The "revolution" in the resource-based economy will be a revolution of humans who take over the machines. And then those humans will be in charge of all of society. An oligarchy of technocrats.
The vision that you're trying to sell is of a benevolent guardian. That's how I can tell that you're simply replacing "God" with "technology" in your religion. You have faith in technology to be good to you. But technology is an extension of human intent. Technology is only as good or as evil as the humans who control it.
Stop light controllers are pretty standardized. Most of them already run by timers and/or censors, so no, no one has to design the stop light controller. Medical machines could eventually be programmed to try everything it "knows" to save the life of the human. That technology would eventually be available. Who would be motivated to hack machines in a system where there is no monetary incentive? The bitterness level of people in this type of system should decrease tremendously. Even if there are incentives, the overall system would still be better than what we have now.
I don't have a religion, I'm agnostic. I have faith in technology to be non judgmental and more accurate than what we have today.
Technology will never be the answer for impartially governing society, because technology is an extension of the will of partial humans. This faith that the Zeitgeist people have in a benevolent, impartial computer/God to govern society is just not realistic. People govern computers. If computers govern society then that doesn't mean that people won't govern society. What it means is that a small oligarchy of people who run the computers would run society. Why would anything else happen? What force maintains the impartiality of the computers? There is no such force. Computers are not inherently good. Replacing "God" with computers in your religion simply replaces "God" with the man behind the curtain. To place your faith in the idea that there won't be a man behind the curtain is crazy. You might not be able to see him, but he will be there. He'll be even more dangerous since you won't be able to see him.
No MAN is master of another MAN
All men are equal
Displacing MAN from land is slavery
MAN on the land is where true peace and freedom for all begins http://loveforlife.com.au/content/08/02/06/forum-ringing-cedars-official-forum-anastasia-foundation-english-source-life-forum-
I don't think you're seeing the big picture. You're imagining our current level of technology and thinking about our current market system. Let's just agree to disagree.
We need help to write free and open source software for a Resource Based Economy. Everyone can help join today! www.RBETech.org
[Removed]
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Political_Spectrums
Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.
The Netherlands and Belgium are just as crowded as Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them.
Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to “assimilate,” i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites.
What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?
How long would it take anyone to realize I’m not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?
And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn’t object to this?
But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.
They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white.
Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.
Sorry to keep posting this:
You have to explain how you're going to solve the problem of economic calculation with RBE's. This is a legitimate argument.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Transcendent_Economy_Exploring_other_mod.html?id=LEacVLUyH4AC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem
And just because I agree that it's a problem doesn't mean I'm a fan of Von Mises.
Economic calculations? Do you mean distributing resources?
I support this.
Yes, if one was to tally the votes a majority are in favor of a RBE society.
www.AmericanProductionGroup.com Problem solved. Don't listen to your professor! You can "Like" us on Facebook too! God Bless and Semper Fidelis!
I just scrolled down for about a minute on the forum, and the "Resource Based Economy Yes Or No" thread has more views than any other thread aside from one posted by the site itself. There's a lot of interest in this topic. Not all are posts that are in agreement but the majority of them are.
The Inherent Design Flaws In The "Resource Based Economy" Model http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHIgA6A0sv8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuQIShEVNRE
o, my main gripe is 50 fatal errors which make "RBE" and "TZM" one more problem i have to solve.
a cult following is counter productive to actual collaboration. a collaboration following would have written 101 textbooks by now. You seriously are missing the point. Its a dangerous cult, its fascist and totalitarian, and its good ideas are just the carrots to lead us into hell.
being a cult means 10 people who blibber on say everything and everyone else just listens and their voices are not really heard and their ideas are not adopted. its a hierarchal system, a cult. what part of this do you not understand?
NO, we do not need a ny kind of cult consciousness to move forward. arguing that we do is frankly disturbing.
if i had 10 thousand people to tell what to do i would have had this revolution over by now.
tzm is a problem i have to solve. its a log jam in my way. its a giant distraction and noise preventing people from doing any of the real work.
its a stupid, evil fascist ignorant cult. period.
to make a positive difference requires for the cult to do things like stop being a cult, stop being fascist, stop promoting robogods, stop the top down hierarchy, begin real collaboration- start open source direct democracy research.. etc.
NO, NO NO NO. we do not need a cult. Its not okay, its not useful, its not good that it is a cult.
All new ideas that gain traction have a cult like vibe to it. ALWAYS! OWS has a cult like vibe to it. I think your problem with an RBE is a personal one. Maybe someone offended you.
thats irrelevant. i am not talking about "cult- like." i am talking about an abusive, evil, fascist, totalitarin, top down hierarchy which lies about its ideology , make believes its attached to science, and which dupes and controls its assorted sheeple.
my problem is NOT personal, it is systemic. If you push any further on this i am going to come back and KILL this idea with a flood of factual analysis.
If you want to promote a cult, go some place else.
if you want to discuss evolutionary ideas which that cult has, then pick one and bring it to the table.
otherwise, i will nuke this and any other further RBE conversation.
Somebody's pissed you off in the past because you're one angry confused person. You won't acknowledge logic. Take a breather, slowly read everything over, and then think rationally, not emotionally.
there is nothing logical about a fascist cult. i am not confused, i know what i am talking about in detail.
I have thought it over VERY carefully, after thousands of hours working to try to help the cult.
you are ad homming me- again- always what the cult does the moment somebody points out whats true about the cult.
How is it fascist? So you tried to help a cult that you are now so adamantly opposed to? Seems like you're a disgruntled ex-member. You're ad homineming a resource based economy!
BTW, I'm not a member of TZM.
how is it fascist ? in how it is actually organized, in its ideology, in its actual top down hierarchy, in its double standard ad hom brown shirt pack psychology communications modality. I was never a member. I did try to help them. Instead of taking my help they were abusive. This is the pattern with them with everyone. they are always abusive.
Its not an ad hom, its a simple fact. Their ideology is fascist, their forum is fascist, their cult is fascist, their talk shows and meetings- all of it- is fascist.
if you aren't a member then WTF?
Bill mollison had much better ideas. why not promote permaculture and arcologies instead of god bots, atheist trolling, and pipe dreaming connected to sophomoric research?
Call it ad hom, but I think you're bitter because someone in that movement didn't agree with your ideas. Your posts reek of bitterness and hostility towards a movement whose ideas you apparently agree with! You said, "Instead of taking my help they were abusive." That's pretty much all anyone needs to know right there. How is it a top down hierarchy? I didn't think it was. Maybe I'm wrong, explain it to me. If by your logic a top down hierarchy equals fascism, then damn near everything is fascist.
I'm just a guy, who has a degree in economics, that saw the videos and thought that the idea was interesting and plausible. To me, it seems like the only logical step forward. All I want is to get the word out, and hopefully see a conversation started. It's an idea that a lot of people on here like. Seems like a good idea to start sub forums for potential solutions to be better organized.
obviously is ad hom. obviously you can't deal with the truth, so you can only try to make this about me.
it is right for me to point out that it is in fact a fascist and totalitiarian cult. after being abused by them time and time again it is natural to have ambivalent feelings towards them. That is however irrelevant.
its a top down hierarchy because it is a control system in which the false prophets transmit and emit and everyone else listens. ideas from other people aside from the prophets are not integrated into the holistic system and non prophets are in essence ignored.
You can say you don't THINK it was or is all you like- thats just proving ignorance and blindness.
great, you saw some videos. so you have in essence NO real interaction with the cult, NO depth understanding, have spent maybe 20 hours getting to know them compared to my thousands of hours.
it is not only not plausible and not logical it is a giant insane log jam. Just because they have some good ideas does not mean that the bad ones aren't there underneath. it only takes one stupid evil idea to make a paradigm stupid and evil, even it otherwise has 1000 true core axioms.
get the word out about those core ideas all you like, the fact is it isa cult, and you are drawing attention to a cult, and OWS is not going to support a cult.
again, a sub forum for permaculture arcologies and micro economics and alternative systems is a fine idea. a sub forum for a cult is epic fail.
everything about this discussion is epic fail. Your ad homs are epic fail, your time spent actually getting to know them is epic fail, your argument is epic fail, and the cult is epic fail.
Let's just agree to disagree then.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Political_Spectrums
no, lets get this resolved for everyone the right way. What we need to do is understand that there is a time and a place for everything. co-opting this movement is not going to happen. Exploration of the issues does need to happen and the cult has some important things it should share with the movement.
This forum or any given occupy or any given GA is not the place for that. A wiki on the other hand IS the place for that.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Political_Spectrums
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=CMbY87bB-qsCFUPt7Qod9HE8mQ
http://maplight.org/us-congress/guide/data/money?9gtype=search&9gkw=list%20of%20campaign%20donations&9gad=6213192521.1&9gag=1786513361&gclid=CP61oYbB-qsCFQFZ7AodcTF0jw
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/non-violence-evolution-by-paradigm-shift/
Who said anything about co opting??? I said we should have a sub forum so that the forum would be more organized. Not just for my idea, but for others as well. A LOT of people agree with the idea. Jeez Louise! Why am I still debating you about this?
that thread has gotten quite large and could use some organization
all economies are based on resources, capitol (tools) and labor
Yes, the Zeitgeist cult replaces the word "property" with the word "resource", and they replace "God" with "technology".
I like Zeitgeist videos
Hamlet said
"What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—"
What a Piece of Work is Man-Walking in Space (Reprise)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChTBKjtfd2w
Yes. "Resource based economy" is just a title for a new ideology on how to manage those resources more effectively.
could the title be more specific ?
That's the name they chose I guess. If it was any longer, people wouldn't even look into it. haha!
it is always unwise to change the name of something that is already being followed
one will loss followers
Human need economy?
RBE already has lots of followers. Just like you can argue against the name, others could argue for it.
not an argument
just want clarification
seriously, permaculture deserves a sub forum, RBE does not.
RBE is a cult idea and is detached from reality. its anti science, anti truth, a giant irrational pipe dream.
Alternative economic systems would be a better sub forum.
if you tzmers start up with such a sub forum it will be blocked and trolled for the good reason that most adults understand that tzm is a cult.
some fine ideas there. now bring those ideas back into adult reality by actually dropping the RBE label. Just to start- what we have NOW is a resource based economy.
You and I found something to agree about! Zeitgeist is definitely a cult.
we can't disagree about everything...;)
I agree that there is a cult like vibe around a lot of it. But, I guess that nearly all new movements initially have one. Christianity, islam, libertarianism, objectivism, first American patriotic movement, etc. Seems to go along with all new movements in their early stages.
RBE isn't detached from reality. One of the most popular threads on this board is this one: http://occupywallst.org/forum/resource-based-economy-yes-or-no/
It only makes sense to take the most popular ideas and to create sub forums for them. It keeps things organized and we can have a convo about popular, potential solutions. Not just RBE should have one, but other popular ideas as well.
yes, it is completely detached from reality. i have visited that thread. there are as many anti rbe and tzm folks as cultists, for the good reason that it is detached from reality and that it is a cult.
RBE is a stupid, wreckless, anti capitalist fascsit totalitarian pipe dream as currently defined. we don;t need robo gawds, and we don't need "all of the worlds resources to belong to all of the worlds people" which is systemically impossible.
there is nothing in any of that which has anything to do with facts, or with science, or with truth, or with any kind of solutions, or with any kind of actual problem solving process. "RBE" is thus a fascist totalitarian technocratic form of government, and MOST people understand that is not the direction we want to go in.
If you want to ask for sub forums, ask for sub forums relevant to the issues.
an RBE forum will only show you very quickly that as soon as the adminatroll moderatin methods of tzm are no longer in place and they can't censor the conversation- any sane person objects to RBE. your sub forum would be drowned out and silenced as soon as it starts by people protesting against the cult.
instead, ask for a sub forum to explore alternative systems, and others can get behind that. you can bring up RBE and we can even try to rescue the good from th garbage out of that system. what is NOT going to fly is getting OWS to endorse, or promote, RBE.
I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't agree with a resource based economy! haha! That's okay, a lot of people don't! But a lot of people do! If there was a broad based sub forum for "alternative solutions" it would quickly get filled with a hundred different ideas and become unorganized as well. One of the stereotypes of OWS is that it is unorganized and if you go to their official website and click on the forum section, what do you see? One of the most unorganized forums I've ever been to. It's obvious by the thread that I posted that there is a lot of interest in discussing a resource based economy. Some for, some against, pros and cons, etc. There are a lot people that visit this website that would like the idea, but the threads about it, no matter how popular, keep falling a mile a minute, so they don't see them. The same goes for other popular ideas as well.
depends on how you define that. I do agree with the general gist of it. i don't agree with fascism, totalitarianism, robogods, or the socialistic and communistic and anti capitalist trappings. i don't agree with the cult. I will be happy as many people will to support a meaningful evolutionary discussion about new economic and political systems and to look at RBE as one relevant discussion. however. there are as mnay people actively fighting against the cult as members of it for the good reasons that it is sinister and evil and stupid and detached from reality.
i have been saying we need sub forums for like.. 4 weeks or 5 now... they were promised and never came.
again. be smart. if you get an rbe sub forum it will be crashed by those who understand the danger of the cult. if you get a civilization by design or future by design forum, then that can progress in a civil manner.
there is a difference. ows is not here to promote a cult. it is here to promote meaningful discussion of alternatives.
I don't see it as a cult. If you see it as such, you wouldn't have to even look at the sub forum. A lot of people like the idea, and it is a potential solution, even if you don't like it. What would be the difference between a future by design forum and a resource based economy forum? Different names for the same idea.
We already have a resource based economy. See the housing market. Perhaps you should call it something that makes it clear what you are trying to do. http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
Who cares what it's called as long as the principles are there!
"Who cares what it's called as long as the principles are there!"
Don't know what the principles are since the terminology makes no sense.
the difference is more people would show up to say rbe is a cult than would show to support it on the one hand- or all of those people could show up and contrinute positive ideas on the other.
MOST people will hard block "RBE" for good reasons. They are fine with exploring the options... its a clear and obvious difference i shouldn't have to spell out for you.
There are as many anti RBE participants as there are cult members. I know 30 people on FB alone who fight pretty much 2 or 5 hours every day against RBE.. andfor good reasons.
freeconomy for example resonate with me and is a simple concept. http://justfortheloveofit.org/ When something is difficult to understand it is because someone is trying to hide something.
Like I said before, all new movements are a bit cultish in the beginning. If you don't want anything to do with it, then don't participate in the discussions. No problem with arguing against it if you want. I didn't count how many positive comments were in that thread, but I think the majority were positive. If there were sub forums, it would clean up a lot of the repetitive clutter on the main page.
i like the idea of sub forums. you asked a very very meaningful question and you don't seem to realize how exacting it was. most people who object to the cult are still in favor of the general principle.
Again, if there is an rbe forum i will be forced to knock it down. hard.
i am not the only one. OWS should not be in the position of supporting cults.
its not about being at some beginning. its about 50 fatal errors they won't fix.
I'm just telling you fair warning. i will rip RBE down unto my last breathe- and there are easily hundreds of people who will join me.
for the good reason that it is a dangerous and fascist cult.
So your main gripe is the name?? There's always been cult vibes around new ideas. Why be against the cult if you like the ideas? Isn't that counter productive? It's the ideas that draw a cult following, which will bring about change. That's the main reason Obama won in 08, he had a cult following. George Washington had it in his time. All revolutionary ideas need that type of following to be successful. Islam has it and they are winning. Christianity had it at one point of time and still do but it's way smaller. Keynesian economics has/had it and so does Ron Paul.
no, my main gripe is 50 fatal errors which make "RBE" and "TZM" one more problem i have to solve.
a cult following is counter productive to actual collaboration. a collaboration following would have written 101 textbooks by now. You seriously are missing the point. Its a dangerous cult, its fascist and totalitarian, and its good ideas are just the carrots to lead us into hell.
being a cult means 10 people who blibber on say everything and everyone else just listens and their voices are not really heard and their ideas are not adopted. its a hierarchal system, a cult. what part of this do you not understand?
NO, we do not need a ny kind of cult consciousness to move forward. arguing that we do is frankly disturbing.
if i had 10 thousand people to tell what to do i would have had this revolution over by now.
tzm is a problem i have to solve. its a log jam in my way. its a giant distraction and noise preventing people from doing any of the real work.
its a stupid, evil fascist ignorant cult. period.
to make a positive difference requires for the cult to do things like stop being a cult, stop being fascist, stop promoting robogods, stop the top down hierarchy, begin real collaboration- start open source direct democracy research.. etc.
NO, NO NO NO. we do not need a cult. Its not okay, its not useful, its not good that it is a cult.
I don't understand. what do you mean by a sub forum?
A separate forum under the main one, that way certain issues can be organized better. I don't think that "resource based economy" should be the only one, other popular ideas should have them as well.
We are making a go of it in Olancho. Stay tuned.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Republic-of-Olancho/149833091753264
www.republicofolancho.com
I hope not.
Build your own website to discuss it and push the agenda through discussions and information and debate.
You don't need some special place for you to geek out with one another.
No.
a) Scarcity is inherent to locality and transportation issues. There is not an efficient way for everyone to share resources. Electricity is plentiful in the NW, because we have hydroelectric as well as wind/etc. That electricity CAN be distributed elsewhere, but the farther you get from the source, the more energy you lose into the atmosphere. Unless you expect everyone to move to the same few resource rich spots on the planet, locality is an issue to this model. b) The infrastructure to support this type of economy on a global scale would be massive, and would not encourage technological process. c) What sort of transportation system would be needed to withstand this economic model, and how would it be feasible without carbon based fuels? (see next.) d) What is the mechanism through which resources would be distributed? How is that controlled? e) Resources needed in Alaska would be different than resources needed in Africa, would be different from the resources that could be produced in Brazil. If you live in Vegas, you're pretty much SOL. You can't institute an economy of "sameness" on a planet of diversity. f) There is no, "ideal technology" that we can develop one single iteration of to provide for our needs. Progress comes from refining previous manufacturing processes and products, based on input from consumers and failures in the process. Without the past, we wouldn't know what "more ecologically efficient" means in terms of technology. "Progress" as such is inspired by competition.
"transportation" - Electric powered high speed trains and driverless electric trucks. "transportation losses" - It only makes sense to transport. It doesn't make too much sense to transport electricity when it can be generated locally, solar, wind, wave, geothermal... "economy of "sameness" - It's based on supply and demand. It would only be sameness if everybody would order/design the same thing. "How is that controlled" - By automation. Progress is stagnated by competition. Cooperation is always better.
If something about Resource Based Economy is not logical, than it's most likely no what you thing it is. So please try to look deeper.
I agree we need some way to vote on these issues. We can continue to debate forever. We need petitions or another means to reach consensus. The voices are present.
sounds a tad collectivist to me.....but that's nothing new on these forums, of course. the guy who came up with this was a philosopher of science...and philosophers tend to be terrible economists. it's an incredibly dumb idea all around. i mean, it entails getting rid of the "profit motive"...and replacing it with the "purpose motive"....yeah...i smoke a lot of crack, too. but not enough to believe in this system...
"i smoke a lot of crack" - maybe that's actually the problem?
If you noticed in the thread I posted a link to above, there's an economist that agrees that a resource based economy is a sound idea. I have a degree in economics as well, even though I don't work as an economist, and I think it's doable.
I'm sure you could get several economists to agree, but thousands of economists to disagree. I've taken Intro to Economics (actually, I only just took my midterm), and I can pretty easily tell that this system is nonsensical. Don't worry, I know quite about more about economics than just supply and demand.... I mean, a resource economy claims that if we produce technology without profit (yeah right) then there would be enough materials to make people want to not be greedy and corrupt. That alone sounds like a bunch of crap...it basically sounds like communism but he's fixing the lack of incentive bit, which he really isn't...
you are so wrong, but i dont blame you because yo are not informed, watch zeitgeist's documentary and the venus project, and please open your eyes.
P.S. Is not comunism or any other "ism" because there wouldn't be any goverments, a Resourced based-economy is a system that not have any precedent.
P.S. 2 Here is your answer http://www.unitinghumans.com/2011/10/how-does-venus-project-compare-with.html
make the theory a practice. show us how it works at the very smallest level. show us how it is now successfull somewhere. there has to be a web site showing how a small group is making this work. this is not a new. show us an example, please.
The Venus Project:
part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwcd01i-S1o part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnad4AtGDAc&feature=related part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3IFXazsM8&feature=related part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhrQIlh1xuo&feature=related
Zeitgeist Movies:
Zeitgeist: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8883910961351786332
Zeitgeist Addendum: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912
Zeitgeist Moving Forward: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aLGFZDiwRs
all i did was read the wikipedia page...it sounds pretty dumb to me. you can't actually think that people will be motivated by "purpose" instead of "profit." which is why i might liken it to communism. you expect some magical incentive to appear apart from the profit. communism gets rid of the profit motive because everyone earns the same, yet somehow it doesn't work? oh yeah..because people want money. a resource based economy is just a bunch of utopian nonsense. the guy who created the idea thinks that people will magically become ungreedy....right..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc - RSA about motivation.
I assume that confirmation bias led you to assume that this video has anything to do with a resource based economy? The video asserts that higher incentives lead to worse performance and asserts that the purpose motive is important. What it nowhere nearly begins to assert is that the profit motive is not integral to the functioning of society. It says that both profit and purpose is important; however, we tend to underestimate the importance of purpose. So, this video is not positive proof for the functioning of a resource based economy, in any sense.
If you pay attention to what they say you will notice "Monetary incentive works only on boring repetitive work", but leads to POORER performance for the intellectual work. And no, they have nothing to do with RBE, it's just a summarization of a research and should be excepted as such. No bias there.
"higher incentives lead to worse performance" But this isn't relevant to anything. The profit motive has to do with individuals wanting money to do work, not with how money affects their ability to do work.
It is relevant, Monetary incentive leads to lowering of their capability to do the work which is counterproductive. Also keep in mind that almost all the inventions have been invented out of genuine curiosity or a desire to improve. and not for the monetary reword itself. Also notice how all the artists, inventors and musicians are treated in our society. They kept as a wage slaves and that only if they are lucky enough to afford diploma and find a job, most of whom are working side jobs just to afford a leaving. You can't ignore fundamental flaw in the monetary system that cannot properly assign value to the invaluable work that they do. That's why this stupid copyright system is invented that's also being abused by corporations instead of the inventors, and slowing down the progress. Admit it. The system in obsolete and needs to be replaced. And RBE is the best alternative on the table.
Once again, can't seem to respond, so I'm responding here again. Let me flesh this out a little. Patents and such were introduced by the government, not the market itself, in order to prevent ideas from being stolen through the creation of monopolies. One might speculate that in a free market, one might have to divert funds to making sure that people know that your product (your idea) is the original and perhaps different than the replicators', What exactly does this have to do with the monetary system? You brought up the copyright system initially because you claimed that artists, inventors, and musicians were "invaluable" and that the system did not reflect this; which the system does, in fact, reflect their value.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBAexya6za0 The patent system is double-edged sword, it sort of incentivise the inventors, while slowing the progress down without which the progress would be almost non-existent. In RBE no one would care anymore about profiting from inventions and we would have a lot more innovations then we see now. We need sateless, classless society with no central authority and no one in power where no one can game the system, that's when our Intrinsic incentive system will work in full power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivation#Intrinsic_motivation_and_the_16_basic_desires_theory This artificial individualistic system is slowing us down. Millions of people are suffering because of it. We need to let it go. Not for the benefit of only you or me or the ones that suffer, but for the benefit of all of us.
PS it ok, you can continue answering the same way, I guess it's limitation of the forum, that posts go only certain number of posts deep.
For whatever reason, there isn't a reply button on your last comment, but I am replying to it. "Yeah maybe after your death." Okay...which means that certain types of art and music are valueless...just like a piece of grass in my backyard, for example. Nobody wants it, so it's worth nothing. First off, Nikola probably didn't have the business sense to sell his theories. Secondly, how exactly would the common person, without any scientific knowledge, benefit from these theories? They wouldn't. But here comes Mr. General Electric who knows quite well how these theories can be used for purposes that people care about--which would make them profitable. I would never willingly pay to know Nikola's theory, unless I'm in a physics class or something. However, most people actually would willingly pay for the service General Electric provides...hence they are profitable. I'm still confused about the copyright bit. The copyright system was imposed by the government, and has nothing to do with the monetary system.
The copyright and potent systems were introduced to compensate for the fundamental flaw that we are discussing.
Counter-productivity has nothing to do with the profit motive though. To reiterate: "I want money" does not equal "Money makes me work poorly." Even if inventions are created largely through the purpose motive, clearly society has shown that the profit motive is what propagates, distributes, and motivates these products further...which is why most every invention has been brought to the market. Musicians and artists aren't kept as wage slaves. Price reflects importance to society (marginal product). Clearly, no one finds them as important as you claim. It's not a flaw in the monetary system. By no means do I think that the work struggling artists and musicians do is "invaluable." If they did something the masses liked, well then there's your value. But clearly, the masses don't care that much about a lot of types of music or art. I agree that copyrights are a hindrance to progression, but I'm not sure why that's relevant.
"If they did something the masses liked" - Yeah maybe after your death. Tell me how "Alternating Current" and "Electromagnetism" is important to society and is it affected Nikola Tesla's "wealthy" life? If to mesure his contribution, he should be in top 1% of the wealthiest people together with Einstein, Picasso and many others. But no, it's General Electrics. If it's not inherent flaw, then I don't know what you are talking about. "profit motive is what propagates, distributes, and motivates these products further" - I agree, that motive was important before the automation became wide spread. Now robots don't need that motive. If you are not sure why that's relevant, than put yourself in their shoes. You can't be inventing all your life, but you still need to leave. The copyright system was invented as a failed attempt to compensate for the flaw.
you are a bored person, go and watch zeitgeist's and the venus project documentary and get some useful info, you will change your way, believe me.
The Venus Project:
part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwcd01i-S1o part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnad4AtGDAc&feature=related part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3IFXazsM8&feature=related part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhrQIlh1xuo&feature=related
Zeitgeist Movies:
Zeitgeist: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8883910961351786332
Zeitgeist Addendum: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912
Zeitgeist Moving Forward: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aLGFZDiwRs
Something here has been put together but maybe someone has something better?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-call-for-humanity-sign-the-petition/
Cool!
Instead of letting all posts gently slide into oblivion as it is now, yes, excellent idea! And we need some means to VOTE on important issues on this site.
I agree.
So whit this RBE why would anyone want to build/ design any of these machines and when they fail as everything does over time why would anyone want to invest their time to solve the problem/ be prepared for said problem.
The system will eventually be fully automated. No human labor (or very minimal human labor) needed.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=119270711515570&id=151800655¬if_t=share_reply
Ryan Conrad-Davis FACT, if the Monetary system is not removed, then the entire International
Occupy movement will ultimately FAIL, We are standing at the crossroad of
history,if we fail to implement a Global Resource Based Economy, then we
will have doomed our survival as a species, we cannot continue destroying
our world, it is suicide. http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/people-
s-mandate-for-a-global-resource-based-economy.html
People's Mandate for a Global Resource Based Economy
www.gopetition.com IT IS MY WILL that all the governments of the world take immediate and
ongoing action to ensure that; 1. dispense with the monetary system;... Like · · Unfollow Post · Share · 33 minutes ago ·
it a democracy, or too many people are going to have to hard block the cult.
democracy? or are you saying a democracy would be much better?
knows RBE is a cult meme, and won't touch it. If you want to promote that
idea seriously to the rest of the population, you are going to have to frame it
in terms that are not connected to the cult. Direct democracy is the new
system we need. RBE as defined by the cult is a fascist totalitarian technocracy. 5 minutes ago · Like Ryan Conrad-Davis interesting 4 minutes ago · Like Write a comment...
er
renewable source economy ?
Economy of Symbiosis ?
micro economics centered economics for systems theory. sure. whatever. the point is "RBE" is a toxic meme.
Symbiotic Economy
I know just said that
always looking for ways to shorten statements
I like "human need economy" but I'm selfish
sounds good, until you bother to understand that PJs reading of the term fails to grasp that its generally a negative connotation. WE already, again, HAVE a parasite economy.
I understand pj re purposed and reclaimed the word and put forth the positive side. maybe you need to look up symbiosis and grasp what it means to the science community instead of let a cult ply you with its jargon.
symbiosis Biology. a. the living together of two dissimilar organisms, as in mutualism, commensalism, amensalism, or parasitism. b. (formerly) mutualism (def. 1).
we are all parasites to the plants
Freddy Fungi took a lichen to Alice Algae
"The fungus is the dominant partner, as it provides the shape and form of the composite organism, but it is incapable of making its own food. So it has evolved to live with another organism that can. Most scientists describe the fungi as cultivating algae and/or the bacteria cells within its structure in order to make food. Lichenologist Tervor Goward once remarked that, "Lichens are fungi that have discovered agriculture." Algae and some types of bacteria can photosynthesize and make food which the lichen then uses. "
http://www.tarol.com/lichen.html
interdependence and interdependent systems are different from symbiosis in that they aren't necessarily parasitic.
You guys are reading the literal definition and thinking it sounds good. Failing to realize that science almost always is referring to some kind of parasite when it uses the term.
If a lot of people think the term "rbe" is polluted, but that the principles are sound, then maybe it needs a name change. I don't care what it's called.
NICE. Needs/ Instincts Centered Economics.
;)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/163532010364963/
I don't care what it's called. But if there's 1000s of articles and videos out there under the title RBE, a name change would confuse a lot of people. Arguing about a name is counterproductive.
i'm not arguing about just a name. i am arguing about you trying to get us into a cult. we are not going to go there. i am TRYING to be nice to you about this but my patience is wearing thin. drop the RBE and back away slowly or i get out the big guns. kapeesh? 75 percent of those "articles" include ideas which are plain dead wrong. starting from scratch over again is a far better idea- because we can start with science instead of ideology, and be scientists instead of anti capitalist atheist trolls.
You're illogical! Like I've said over and over again, all new ideas that gain traction have a cult like vibe around them. So what? That's a positive thing. Do you need more examples? Socrates, Jesus, Adam Smith, Karl Marx, Ghandi, Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, Obama, America all had/have cult like followings. All successful movements do.
you have said that over and over. first its not true. second just a cult vibe is not the issue. third, its not a positive thing. fourth. congratulations, i am outsourcing this argument to the group. You had it easy with me. now i'm bored and i have called the calvary.
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/the-science-that-is-missing-and-completely-wrong-in-the-venus-project/#comment-2776
Haha! So? Be immature. People are conversing about potential solutions to big problems, and you want to argue trivial points. You know what? The anti-resource based economy people are a cult. How do you like that? You're a part of a cult. So you had to call your cult to go against my cult?? Same logic!
there isn't a meaningfu lsolution inside of robofascism.
there is nothing trivial about this.
your right, the anti cult is also a cult. not really any news there.
yeah, it is the same logic. sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
So if the anti-cult is a cult, then nearly every group would be a cult. Therefore, can't avoid it.
can avoid it, could have avoided it, and still missing the point. its a problem if the cult is a clear and present danger to society. TZM is. Its sucking all potential energy for positive change into a black hole of fascism.
Its not just cultish. its an evil fascist cult.
the anti tzm cult at least is ethical and moral and factually RIGHT.
You don't have a point. You're a disgruntled former cult member! How is it a clear and present danger to society? It's just a conversation. I'm not a member of TZM btw.
I wholly support RBE but you need to put the horse (financing) in front of the cart (a great RBE City Design of 65,000), so perhaps, in order to get that financing, you would consider our group's proposal of an alternative online direct democracy of government and business at http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategically_weighted_policies_organizational_operating_structures_tactical_investment_procedures-448eo , hit the facebook “like” button if agreed, and then join our group's 20 members committed to that plan at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
Why? Because an RBE City of 65,000 CAN be built, but it can only be built in phases that are much more technically (or mathematically) specific in terms of its financing than that which they have currently described at TheVenusProject.com, agreed?
The utopian society that you envision is viable if 65,000 people invest, but it isn't viable if only 20 people invest? Is that because you always need to keep bringing in new investors to cover the returns from the early investors? What about the investors who got nothing from investing in sociocyberneering? They're in the same position as the people who invested in "Dianetics", before L Ron Hubbard reinvented it as "Scientology", after losing the rights to the name "Dianetics".
A Home Town Bank of 65,000 Members is not a ponzi scheme (as you imply) because it's wouldn't get its application approved by federal regulators, so please, try reading and thinking critically through the proposal before you make this kind of cult-accusing reply. It's socioeconomic math, not whatever cult of emotions you're coming from, so look at the math LOGICALLY, or please don't bother to reply.
Not a ponzi scheme because it's not federally regulated! Brilliant logic!
For example, there is an immediately effective and efficient solution to the problem of global warming, and the “greedy” 1% system which is creating it, as follows: If the 99%, as Home Town Banks of 65,000 Members, divide themselves into 16,384 Vehicle Investment Groups of 4 Members, with each group of 4 Members purchasing a hybrid-diesel-hummer-limo Cab which they then put into their Town Cab Fleet of 16,384 Lino Cabs, then this would reduce their Individual Transportation Costs by 75% (Cost of 1 Cab / 4 Members = 75% less cost per member), and yet they would have a Luxury Limo Cab available to them, out of 16,000 cabs in their Town, five minutes after calling for one, but not necessarily the specific luxury cab in which they own 25%. And most importantly, let's not forget the lessening of Mother Nature's burden from having 75% fewer cars with no traffic jams, and thus 75% less CO2. Furthermore, the list of simple productivity improvements like this one -- which the 99% want but the 1% don't want -- are endless, beginning with our 48 Tactical Investment Procedures at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems But as their FIRST of Forty-Eight Tactical Investment Procedures, the 99% must control the banks as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein as Business Owner-Voters, before they can control their Town (and National) design in this manner which is much less costly (in terms of the worker hours needed to maintain it by 75% too) and yet have 75% greater luxury (such as a limo cab) at the same time. Consequently, to decentralize Banking & Business Ownership into a Online Direct Democracy by Occupation & Generation is to lower cost 75% is to lower price 75% is to lower work 75% is to increase luxury by 75% is to decrease Mother Nature's burden by 75%. So you see, once you get ALL the people thinking technically (or mathematically) like this, without arguing for argument's sake, in a way they can understand today, THEN you can move them to even high levels of optimally effective and efficient Town (& National) designs where the word "greed" and the phrase "lack of moral fiber" doesn't even exist, such as a resource-based economy, but which the people are not yet technically (or mathematically) prepared to understand or implement at this time, but that can change as we improve their technical (or mathematical) capabilities in ways they do understand first, such as the example above, agreed?
Like I said, look at the math LOGICALLY, or please don't bother to reply.
Wouldn't it be easier to just set up a permaculture garden and not worry about the automatic bottom wiping machine? http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
What I like about permaculture designs is that are complex systems that produce a high density of food and materials with minimal input in a minimal amount of space, thus allowing a person (or family) to be mostly, but not completely, self-sufficient (but still allowing for some imports into their household, such as grain). RBE City Designs, at least as far as TheVenusProject designs that I've seen so far, don't currently reflect the greater self-sufficiency, effectiveness, and efficiency of permaculture designs, but they should. However, designing an RBE City of 65,000, with all it's 48 different Business Investment Groups, especially the Materials & Energy Services Group (which inlcudes farming, forestry, fishing, and mining in a complex permaculture design) is a highly mathematical, but very interesting, task, so I'll cut the current RBE design folks a lot of slack on that one (for the moment).
Their main problem isn't so design, for are many knowledge people in design across all 48 Business Investment Groups of any given RBE City, but financing that city by the 99% of a given town taking control as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein as Business Owner-Voters, in order to allocate the financing away from today's 1% designs to designs, such as a permaculture design, that the 99% would find much more appealing in terms of the work, and thus price, required to maintain them, being about 75% lower.
As for automatic bottom wiping machine, please clarify?
It is what the Venus Project is all about. Having everything done for you. Sit back and wait while the NWO brings you a world where everything is provided for you and you don't need to lift a finger. Don't worry everything is being taken care of nothing to see here. move along now.
After another 100 years of technological innovation, especially in the area of nanotechnology, yes, RBE can can do that, but first, over the next 100 years we'd need to re-allocate a significant amount of today's human capital from the mindless & boring non-scientific things people do today to re-focus on making make those technological innovations needed to actually implement RBE. And this is just as much a financial reallocation as it is a human reallocation.
For example, there is an immediately effective and efficient solution to the problem of global warming, and the “greedy” 1% system which is creating it, as follows:
If the 99%, as Home Town Banks of 65,000 Members, divide themselves into 16,384 Vehicle Investment Groups of 4 Members, with each group of 4 Members purchasing a hybrid-diesel-hummer-limo Cab which they then put into their Town Cab Fleet of 16,384 Lino Cabs, then this would reduce their Individual Transportation Costs by 75% (Cost of 1 Cab / 4 Members = 75% less cost per member), and yet they would have a Luxury Limo Cab available to them, out of 16,000 cabs in their Town, five minutes after calling for one, but not necessarily the specific luxury cab in which they own 25%. And most importantly, let's not forget the lessening of Mother Nature's burden from having 75% fewer cars with no traffic jams, and thus 75% less CO2.
Furthermore, the list of simple productivity improvements like this one -- which the 99% want but the 1% don't want -- are endless, beginning with our 48 Tactical Investment Procedures at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems. But as their FIRST of Forty-Eight Tactical Investment Procedures, the 99% must control the banks as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein as Business Owner-Voters, before they can control their Town (and National) design in this manner which is much less costly (in terms of the worker hours needed to maintain it by 75% too) and yet have 75% greater luxury (such as a limo cab) at the same time. Consequently, to decentralize Banking & Business Ownership into a Online Direct Democracy by Occupation & Generation is to lower cost 75% is to lower price 75% is to lower work 75% is to increase luxury by 75% is to decrease Mother Nature's burden by 75%.
So you see, once you get ALL the people thinking technically (or mathematically) like this, without arguing for argument's sake, in a way they can understand today, THEN you can move them to even high levels of optimally effective and efficient Town (& National) designs where the word "greed" and the phrase "lack of moral fiber" doesn't even exist, such as a resource-based economy, but which the people are not yet technically (or mathematically) prepared to understand or implement at this time, but that can change as we improve their technical (or mathematical) capabilities in ways they do understand first, such as the example above, agreed?
i agree, we need to spread information about Resource based-economy, check this web: http://www.unitinghumans.com/
Speaking on behalf of myself and 19 other Members in our group at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/ we are all for financing an RBE City of 65,000 using our group's plan at: http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategically_weighted_policies_organizational_operating_structures_tactical_investment_procedures-448eo
The problem with financing and building an RBE City of 65,000 is getting the financing to do it, which is certainly achievable, but we have to create our own bank to do it, so please consider our plan carefully, and if you agree that our plan will result in financing an RBE City of 65,000, then please join our group.
I would love to live and help to build and RBE city, through I afraid one city: 1) will not have enough resources to sustain itself without outside trade. 2) It would have to be centralized. 3) We would have to follow county's nonsense laws for buildings constructions, patents, etc. 4) Would be easy target for the CIA. I think it would be much better to start with 13 communities within current cities around a country with 5000 people in each. And start growing from within.
1) will not have enough resources to sustain itself without outside trade.
Agreed, as cited in our group's plan, you'll need to have 50% Global Investment Groups in Commodities, Technology, Manufacturing, Insurance (mainly Healthcare), & Banking within your 13 Home Town Banks in order "to sustain themselves with outside trade".
2) It would have to be centralized.
Please elaborate, for our group's idea of centralization is Online Committees across all 48 Business Investment Groups under each Home Town Bank. These Online Committees democratically agree-upon Policies, Organizations & Procedures at the Business, Town, County, State, National, and International Level. As such, this is a small-business-bottom-up approach, not a big-business-top-down approach, similar to the internet's non-centralized organization itself, agreed?
3) We would have to follow county's nonsense laws for buildings constructions, patents, etc
Agreed, for this is a function of the first group which must be immediately formed under any new Policy, Organization & Procedure, such as RBE, which our group plan calls the Legal & Intelligence Services Group.
4) Would be easy target for the CIA.
Federal Regulators such as CIA are neutralists; that is, along as you obey Laws & Regulations, then you won't have any problem with them. Federal Regulators, such as the CIA, must be institutionally neutral, and thus will never give public approval of any "new" Policy, Organization, & Procedure except it relates their own agency. However, put yourself in the shoes of any Neutralist Federal Administrator looking at our group's plan, wouldn't you love to break-up the mega-banks, and related mega-businesses, that constantly make you, as a regulator, look bad (so often) in the eyes of the public as result of these constant financial crises' and business scandals? So yes, they'd love to support our plan, including RBE, which breaks-up all mega-banks and mega-businesses which have caused them to look so bad, In fact, Regulators have written many ineffective anti-trust laws over the years to do so whereas our plan, including a phased RBE approach, isn't a law, but a movement, and will therefore be an order of magnitude greater in effect than their failed anti-trust laws.
I think it would be much better to start with 13 communities within current cities around a country with 5000 people in each. And start growing from within.
Agreed, but 5,000 members per community (or town) isn't enough of a financial base. Most community banks have at least 30,000 depositors in order to be viable as a financial institution capable of financing an RBE city, and it would have to be a phased, first taking control of existing Businesses & Governments as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein as Business Owner-Voters, in order to allocate part of their Home Town Bank's financing to building an RBE City, agreed?
Consequently, I hope you'll join our group at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems so that we can further empower ourselves as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein as Business Owner-Voters, for there are always long-term alternatives to short-term problems, if we know where to find each other, agreed?