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Forum Post: Re. Taxes and Taxation : 'Let Justice Be Done Though The Heavens Fall' ...

Posted 3 years ago on Nov. 24, 2011, 12:29 p.m. EST by shadz66 (19985)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

How come people who say things like "Taxes are too high" and "Government is too large and and needs to be reduced," NEVER seem to have any questions, critique or even notion of The Massive US Military Empire and its Gargantuan Expenditures ?!

Do such expenses have an impact on domestic taxation d'you think ?!!

If the government of The U$A was truly 'democratic', then its size wouldn't be the problem but as a pissant apology of a demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy is prevalent, whereby there is merely a "Government OF The 99% BY a 1% FOR a 0.01%" then in the very least, complaining if not actually demonstrating, protesting and 'Occupying' becomes a moral imperative for all people of conscience.

A very real and fundamental point to bear in mind is that taxes on individual entrepreneurs, small businesses and just about everyone else in society (The 99%), would be lower if Imperial Wars could be ended AND IF the 1% and all the Corporations (apparently 'legally individual persons') paid their Proper and Fair Share of the Taxes !

The Banking Corporations in particular are the primary culprits in this 'cult of tax avoidance and evasion' and their opposition to The 'Tobin' / Financial Transaction Tax, is utterly unconscionable given the long term existence of the highly regressive 'Sales Taxes' and 'Value Added Tax' (currently 20% in The UK!), which everyone else has to pay !!

I'm not a violent person other than in self-defence but I'm beginning to have dreams about cutting out a senior banker's cold, dead heart with a rusty spoon ... and claiming it AS self-defence !!!

fiat justitia ruat caelum ...

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70 Comments


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[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (22090) 1 year ago

Military spending proposed at 57% for 2014:

See the pie chart, "President's Proposed Discretionary Spending (Fiscal Year 2014)"

http://nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/

I like these old threads, lol. And, hey, I don't want my money spent like that. What a waste.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

57% of 'Discretionary Spending' on the military ?!!! Quite an answer to the question :

''Where Does the Money Go ? In fiscal year 2014, the federal government will spend around $3.8 trillion. These trillions of dollars make up a considerable chunk – around 22 percent – of the US. economy, as measured by Gross Domestic Product (GDP). That means that federal government spending makes up a sizable share of all money spent in the United States each year. So, where does all that money go ?'' Thanx & at a tangent but on related and historical matters, I append the following :

"He (Obama) can maintain the threat of force, which incidentally is a crime under international law, that we should bear in mind that the core principle of the United Nations Charter bars the threat or use of force, threat or use of force. So all of this is criminal."

"My own view is that we should be concentrating on the first 9/11, the one in Chile, which was a much worse attack, by any dimension."

Thanx for the thread revival btw & solidarity @ u & yrs bw & finally, re. my OP & fyi, I discretely link to :

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (22090) 3 months ago

"How come people who say things like "Taxes are too high" and "Government is too large and and needs to be reduced," NEVER seem to have any questions, critique or even notion of The Massive US Military Empire and its Gargantuan Expenditures ?!"

Worth repeating on the anniversary of Occupy Wall Street!

[-] 5 points by ShadzSixtySix (1737) 3 months ago

On this anniversary of Occupy Wall Street, we ''implore all Americans to consider their economic status and face it head on. Take a stand and do something to fight for your rights! We don't have to live like this!'' from ...

SOLIDARITE' ; SOLIDARIDAD ; SOLIDARNOSC ; SOLIDARITY @ The 99.99% - Everywhere !!!

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 3 years ago

Here is an article that speaks to your point. I knew it was happening, but not to this degree. No wonder we're going broke !!

REVEALED: The 30 American Companies That Paid Less Than $0 In Income Tax Over The Last 3 Years

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/these-are-the-30-american-companies-that-paid-less-than-zero-income-tax-from-2008-2010-2011-11?op=1#ixzz1ejBOPiGq

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

@ 'Sparky' : Many thanx for your extremely relevant and absolutely brilliant yet rather shocking link.

I'd heard some of this in conversation with friends and on 'The Keiser Report' ( http://maxkeiser.com/ ) but to have the hard evidence and numbers, nevertheless takes the breath away.

Thanx again and I do hope that readers will avail themselves of your link above and http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf .

Stay well and illuminated 'sparky' and ...

fiat lux ..

[-] 2 points by Idaltu (662) 3 years ago

"I'm not a violent person other than in self-defence but I'm beginning to have dreams about cutting out a senior banker's cold, dead heart with a rusty spoon ... and claiming it AS self-defence !!!"

I'll hold the bastard down while you cut him or her up.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

LoL !!! & ...

a) I'd prefer it to be a 'he' as I'm a little old fashioned when it comes to hitting women ... and lest that get wilfully misunderstood by anti-OWSers : "I do NOT advocate it" !! & ..

b) I'm afraid that in any such eventuality, you would become an accomplice. Maybe you'd have to wear a 'Guy Fawkes ; Anonymous Mask' and name yourself after a famous Roman Rebel and Freedom Fighter, such that IF you were to be apprehended ... many, many millions could stand up and declare "I'M Spartacus"!

veritas ab absurdum ...

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

The term 'middle class' is mentioned on this thread and it always seems to be liberally bandied about in political discourse in The U$A.

IF We need to work and sell our labour and expertise in order to pay our bills and fund our lives, Then We are 'Working Class', whether We like it or Not !

'Middle Class' is an affectation specifically designed to pander to conceits and egos, so as to keep us all divided and conquered. The cold, hard truth is that IF you 'work' or need to work to pay for your lifestyle, then you are 'Working Class'.

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by looselyhuman (3117) 3 years ago

There's more to it than that. We can point to the middle class as a discreet group that was created by labor struggles and became dominant in the US in the postwar years, thanks to progressive policies. Its decline should be a rallying point.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

I feel that there is an inherent paradox in your statement "We can point to the middle class as a discreet group that was created by labor struggles ...".

Real questions in my own mind are just why are people (especially in The U$A and to some degree in The UK & elsewhere too no doubt!) resistant to the term 'working class'? Do they regard any such description as 'infra dig.' ? If so, why?

Finally to end, I again repeat "Middle Class' is an affectation specifically designed to pander to conceits and egos, so as to keep us all divided and conquered."

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by looselyhuman (3117) 3 years ago

I understand your perspective, and agree that the middle class is the working class, and that the term fell out of favor partly because working class is associated with the "terrible" thing known as class warfare.

What you're not allowing for, however, is that there being a broad middle class, one or two steps more comfortable than the working poor, is a good thing. Pretentious as it may seem to you, it translates into less suffering and struggle, and more dignity for a whole lot of people. You can call it petit-bourgeois or lumpenproletariat for all I care, but it needs to be recognized as a disceet group for the purposes of saving it. Once everyone becomes just working class or capitalist, there are no goalposts for the so-called "American Dream."

I realize this is not ideal from a marxist perspective. But, I'm not a marxist. Neither are most Americans. We like our middle class. A strong middle class is the goal, for us, of a successful society.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

I appreciate and respect your thoughtful reply.

You intuit my political perspective correctly - though I do not actually ever seek to disguise it. Indeed the older I am getting and the more I read him, the more relevant Uncle Karl's ideas seem to me ( cf http://www.marxists.org/ & http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-defence-of-the-broad-church-of-socialism-from-t/ )

I also see real moral and ethical values in Adam Smith's writings (where he often warns again 'cabals and cartels' and the dangers of the unfettered 'free hand of the market'). Indeed I regard Adam Smith as more of a Moral Philosopher than anything else.

I Wish : for a thousand commercial flowers to bloom ; for bad, unethical and immoral commercial practices to be 'Disadvantaged' (as opposed to being The Preferred Business Model!) in 'The Market Place' ; for 'Externalities' to be 'Internalised' ; for True 'Mark To Market' Accounting Practices ; for Entrepreneurship to be valued, respected and encouraged ; for Modern High-Finance Capitalism to be shown for what it is ... "A Busted Flush" ; for an end to Imperial Wars & Resource Grabs ; for The Grip Of The Debt-Trading, Usurious Money Lenders to be removed from All Our Necks ... and .. To Make True, Direct, Participatory Democracy {as opposed to the current demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy} compatible with Ethical Capitalism resulting in A Strong Democratic Nation (U$A, UK et al) where Laws are Democratically Made [as opposed to being Bought by 'Corporate Personhood' via The Infernal Lobbyists !!] and for Justice to be dispassionately pursued without 'fear or favour'. I believe these things to be desirable and well within the 'collective wit' of us all.

Finally, as a leftist UKer (& do try NOT to prefix any unwarranted consonants!), I've got to take a dig at USers and their 'The American Dream' ... so called no doubt .. 'Because You've Got To Be Asleep To Believe It' ! ;-)

Stay well and 'hang tight' 'looselyhuman' and somewhat belated best wishes to you and yours for Thanksgiving, which - the way I read it, is as much a thanx unto The Generous and Accommodating Native Americans as it is unto G*d !

fiat lux ; fiat pax ; fiat justitia ruat coelum ...

[-] 2 points by looselyhuman (3117) 3 years ago

Thanks. I have followed your thread on the "church' and enjoyed it. As a keynesian liberal I welcome socialist thinking, and find it a necessary (and lately, missing) balance to the ravages of freemarket capitalism.

Your thinking on Adam Smith, by the way, is shared by others whom I respect, such as Noam Chomsky.

Re: The American Dream, it isn't a myth because there was a time when it was at least something of a reality - but it's certainly a rare bird these days. :) Carlin quote appreciated nonetheless!

best wishes to you and yours for Thanksgiving, which - the way I read it, is as much a thanx unto The Generous and Accommodating Native Americans as it is unto G*d

Thank you, and very true.

fiat lux ; fiat pax ; fiat justitia ruat coelum ...

I always enjoy translating your latin. ruat was the only piece here that gave me trouble, but now I find (besides seeing it in english in the post title) that this phrase is important in English law, and is actually included in the seal of at least one US court. Though the heavens fall... I agree.

fiat pax florent justitia

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

@ 'lslylhuman' : Thank-you for gracious reply.I think that you are in possession of much more than a just 'looselyhuman' heart, as I can detect its warm, empathetic glow from across the ocean !

Below please find some links which you (and others) may like :

a) http://usuncut.org/ ,

b) http://www.opensecrets.org/ ,

c) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ ,

d) http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/category/economics/ &

e) http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf .

Peace and Prosperity to you and yours & Protection over your home and hearth.

per ardua ad astra ;-)

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

So how do you define work in your example??

Is there anyone between the ages of 25 and 65 (+-) that you identify as not having to work.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

a) Work = Any activity for which one receives remuneration,

b) The 1% and Progeny ... and the physically and mentally incapable.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

The 1% is not excluded from the work force in your definition. If work equals any activity for which one receives remuneration, and the 1% receive remuneration, logic would deduce that they therefore WORK and are also part of the working class as you describe it.

Think about this as the definition of WORK:

"Work is solving problems." Pay or remuneration does not directly enter into the definition of work.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

As indicated by my initial 'Forum Post', I regard the real problem to be emanating from The Parasitic "1% OF The 1%" ie. The 0.01%. ... as most of the 1% also need their salaries and wages to sustain themselves then they too may be considered ultimately 'working class' (by my definition), though one suspects that they would be mortified at the very thought !

Furthermore, your wish to defend The 1% and your antipathy to OWS and its causes is evidenced by your replies to 'Verum' above, so I do regard your points here to be specious and tendentious at best.

Finally, though I quite like your definition of "Work is solving problems", the reality is of course that that 'rose tinted spectacle view' is only a small part of the story. A satirical definition of work may be "Work is only 'work' IF you would rather be doing something else" ... which has some value I feel.

fiat lux ...

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

So are you telling the world that you don't like your job, that you would rather be doing something else?? Perhaps everyone would like that same freedom, then who mashes your potatoes and makes your gravy??

Just because I have questions, DOES NOT, mean that I am defending anyone, that is simply your biased interpretations from the perspective of being OWS. I can only imagine that you have no perspective other than that.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

More questions eh ? FYI, I'm self-employed and live on my wits. Further as I've said immediately above, your own biases are quite evident from the replies you've given to 'Verum' above and in particular in the reply to which poster 'RogerT' draws such warranted attention.

When you say : "I am (NOT) defending anyone, that is simply your biased interpretations from the perspective of being OWS", I'm flattered that you would think so. I'm posting from The UK and have no formal or official association with OWS, however they do have my admiration, respect and support whereas your own self-evident antipathy to OWS (here and on other threads!) means ... " I can only imagine that you have no perspective other than that."!!

Rather than relying on your (somewhat suspect) imagination, how about scrolling to the top of this thread and clicking poster SparkyJP's excellent link ? You never know 'ronji' but you just MAY learn something ! Also do try : http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf .

nunc, fiat pax ...

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Sorry, I don't do http:'s

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

You "don't do http:'s" ?!! Really ?! Why's THAT then ?

Is it possibly because you are averse to being faced with Hard Facts which may discombobulate you and question your world-view ?

Well if you're going to make like a cross between one of Colonel Sanders' Favourite Birds ... and an Ostrich, then I suppose that our exchange has reached its natural conclusion. However on the slim chance that you do grow a pair and manage to extract your head from the sand, then I can only sincerely encourage you to closely peruse and reflect upon the very important contents of : http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf because ...

veritas vos liberabit !

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

"digeese billagonna" assuming that you are one.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

I haven't got the foggiest clue what that might mean, though if your head is in the proverbial sand then it is a logical extension that your metaphorical voice is muffled and unintelligible.

On the hope and chance that you succeed in extricating yourself from your predicament, please give this animated short film a go : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0 .

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

It simply means that I might be a little smarter than you think.

I haven't got the foggiest what "veritas vos liberabit" means but I would guess it has something to do with a pregancy test and bad news.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

If you'd had the nous to cut and paste it into your browser / search engine of choice, you'd have seen that it translates as ... "The Truth Shall Set You Free" ;-)

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Try the same with "digeese billagonna" and see where it gets you.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

I did of course do just that and though it appears vaguely Italian... it still came up with bollocks - unsurprisingly ! Further, I've got a sneaking suspicion that you're quite happy for me to waste my time on more bollocks !!

Thus, I'm afraid that our exchange has turned into a 'cul de sac', so I leave you with a web-site dedicated to A Truly Great Italian Hero of The Global 99% : http://www.internationalgramscisociety.org/ .

ciao for niao ...

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 3 years ago

absolutely. i think Obama has done a great job of fixing that. the supper committee failed and as a results, the pentagon is going to take a HUGE cut.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

"Absolutely" Nothing ! Unless of course, you were being super-sarcastic !!

It is a case of 'Obummer!' for The U$A and indeed The World, that Obomber with his insipid Oblah-blah has been, is and will continue to be Nothing other than a lilly-livered Bankster's Pet who is wholly owned by 'The Deeply Evil, Banking Federation'!

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 3 years ago

you could at least TRY to formulate a position in your jibber-jabber. i have agreed with some of your stuff but i can't even understand this one.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

You may wish to take a breath, re-read and reflect again ...

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 3 years ago

that isn't an articulated position. you cannot craft a solution from that. spinning wheels. like, his for sale lunch with goldman, or his relationship with soros.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

My "articulated position" was the original opening post, my 'reaction' was to your post beginning with "absolutely. i think Obama has done a great job of fixing that." which IF you were being serious, I see as misguided - to say the very least! pax et lux ...

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 3 years ago

the super failed. automatic cuts are imminent. they can't get anything done, we are convinced right? so it's everyone's fault when the cuts happen.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/11/21/clock-ticks-down-to-super-committee-failure/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2011/11/21/super-committee-deadline-automatic-cuts-triggers_n_1104994.html

[-] 2 points by Edgewaters (912) 3 years ago

Oh you watch. That isn't what's going to happen. The cuts to civil services will happen for sure, as intended. But expect Obama to step in with a veto when it comes to military cuts "in the interests of national security". I'll eat my shorts if he doesn't.

Game is rigged. You watch and see.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 3 years ago

You are right!! It's very similar to Obama campaigning on raising taxes on earners over $250k, then he and the dems renewed the bush tax cuts for another 2 yrs!

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 3 years ago

you better break out some ketchup :)

[-] 2 points by Edgewaters (912) 3 years ago

We'll see, won't we?

[-] 1 points by VERUM (108) 3 years ago

I'm appalled at the far right's continued argument that Government should not be involved with Business. However, they continue to support Corporate Lobbyist... so I guess they think that it is perfectly OK for Business to be involved in Government!

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 3 years ago

they are all guilty of it.

[-] 1 points by VERUM (108) 3 years ago

I agree Richard... it is not a matter of who is actually guilty... It's been a matter of who has the most money to make the system work in their favor.

I'll give you hint... it ain't the middle class!

[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

HINT - the middle class may be right in there with all the rest.

Not too sure you are fully correct. Are teachers not in the middle class?? they got a pretty big voice in government. How about all those old folks, you think they represent the retired 1% voicing their wishes through AARP?

Come on - check out the HINT before you give it to the world.

[-] 2 points by VERUM (108) 3 years ago

With all due respect ronjj... I think you are targeting Organized Labor... they only represent about 12% of the citizens in this country.

How could a measly 12% of middle income workers in America afford to influence Government like the Corporations that are responsible for over 14 trillion dollars in GNP?

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

How could a measly OWS organization afford to influence Government like your are proposing. Fair question. Now YOU figure out the answer to your question.

Evidently you don't see it as an impossibility.

[-] 3 points by VERUM (108) 3 years ago

Actually... I don't see it as an impossibility, but a probability!

Why should I answer my own questions? That protocol is reserved for Fox News!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Stop watching Fox News and think for yourself.

You should always be prepared to answer your own questions. If you are not - you are open to whatever answer someone gives you. It is called not "having a clue" and I think you are far above that.

[-] 2 points by VERUM (108) 3 years ago

I'm not sure if we are on the same planet... I don't watch Faux News... and I don't form opinions based on media presentations.

I'm going to ask you a really simple question.. there will be no need for riddles, or twisting of words... here it goes...yes or no...

Are you in support of the OWS Movement?

(I'm going to give you my answer to the same question... YES!)

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Thank you for your bluntness. But I can only reply, are you really ready for a yes-no answer to that question? Force me to answer today and my answer will be NO and this will be your and OWS loss not mine.

Allow me time to decide and the answer may very well be YES if you will tell me exactly what I am voting on and what that might look like in the future.

Your question if the equivalent of me stating that I am running for President. Are you for me or not. When in effect I have not really defined who I am, what I stand for, and what I intend to do if elected.

If you force everyone to make a "yes", "no" decision today, you lock in only those that say "YES" Do you really think that you and OWS are ready for that yet. And if you are, get rid of your grandiose exaggerations and get to the basics of what you are about and who your are.

  1. Is OWS just a big campout??
  2. Is and will it remain leaderless??
  3. Is violence your first or last resort??
  4. Is your only intent to prove a point to WalMart??
  5. There are far too many unanswered questions for most Americans to provide a YES-NO answer at this time. Would you agree?? Yes or No?

I do not give my "blind" support to any one or anything. If I cannot understand it, if I cannot see it in action, if I cannot accept the sincerity of the movement, I wait.

I have read, I have listened, I have been referred to hundreds of http: sites and I still do not have a definitive answer to even the most basic of questions. The answers I am seeing range from discussion, to voting, to meetings, to outright murder. Until you sew things up a little and trim off the fringes, it is not even possible to answer a simple question such as 'WHO are you and OWS???'

[-] 3 points by RogerT (36) 3 years ago

It will be no loss to OWS if ronjj doesn't support it. His questions show he has not been paying attention to what's going on in the world and are quite frankly rather juvenile. The polls show that about 70% of Americans are in favor of the movement and that shows a level of maturity far above wondering if OWS is a campout.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

You are once again, preaching to the choir and not preaching the truth a that. Check the polls again for the favorable rating.

[-] 2 points by VERUM (108) 3 years ago

I'm not "forcing" you to say anything... just asking for an honest answer!

Why complicate something so simple? You are obviously here for a reason... I mean... this an OWS site!

Cool down.. we have ALL had our cornflakes pooped in at one time or the other... no need to go off the deep end!

My suggestion to you would be to read the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence!

From there...summarize your interpretation of those documents as related to American History, and post them here for all to read!

Happy Thanksgiving!

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

I don't see how you equate "simple" with a question that cannot be answered yes or no by me at this time,

Really, I am pretty cooled down, my cornflakes are fine, I have HAD a very Happy Thanksgiving and I have a copy of the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution right here.

And I have already posted my summarization several times herein and provided by interpretation also through various posts and reply to posts.

I am not here to promote myself, I am here to find out what OWS is really all about, if it can defend its' position someway other than by confronting the Police, how it intends to do so, and what results it expects. If I cannot find answers to these questions, YES, I will oppose this movement based on what information I can glean from someplace like Fox News.

I have come into YOUR home. You treat me like dirt, insult my intelligence, or call me names don't expect me to come back saying YES to all of your questions.

If I come into YOUR home, treat you like dirt, kick me out.

[-] 2 points by VERUM (108) 3 years ago

First... this is not my home... nor is yours! This Nation... that the forefathers designed was meant to be a Democratic Society.

The meaning of democratic is simple... majority rules. My opinion, or your opinion for that matter is completely irrelevant!

Do what think is right... be against the OWS vocally here in this forum! I'm not here to convert you or sell you!

It's a free Country!

P.S. I would never kick you out of my home unless you mess with my constitution!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Now I am in trouble.

By HOME, I meant that, in conformance with you statement to the effect that this is an OWS owned and operated site, I am therefore a guest.......

You treat me like a guest in your HOME and we can have an exchange, YOU (meaning OWS) treat me like dirt, etc don't expect me to look favorable on anything about the occupants of the home.

In a true democracy as you may note, every opinion (mine and yours) is very relevant and we would have the right to so express that opinion. The closer the majority rule is to consensus rule, after everyone has expressed their opinion, the more successful the majority rule tends to be.

Before we vote, please understand that I have not expressed an opinion about whether the OWS is totally or partially either right or wrong.

My discussions have only been with individuals, some of whom support the OWS, some who don't, and some who are undecided.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

You might want to reserve your party until you know for sure. No use expending all the confetti right now - but if you just want an excuse for a party - go for it.

Not saying that I don't support a reduction, but if you expend all your energy celebrating this assumed victory don't be surprised to wake up from your stupor and find out that it did not happen the way you thought it would when you passed out.

And I bet you laughed at President Bush when he proclaimed "Mission Accomplished" You just did the very same thing. Thing about it George W.

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 3 years ago

oh, no. they aren't getting my vote that easy. my apologies if it looked that way.

[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 3 years ago

Sorry, you DID look that way. I understand. Thanks

[-] 0 points by michael4ows (224) from Mountain View, CA 3 years ago

NEVER seem to question military expenditures

Some people who say things like "taxes are too high" absolutely do question military spending... an obvious example is RonPaul.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

... and Dennis Kucinich too perhaps ?!

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

Please see the article : "The War Against the Poor : Occupy Wall Street and the Politics of Financial Morality" ; http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29649.htm ...

Also, re. the The 2008 Financial Crisis, see the film 'Inside Job' : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28189.htm . "It's a powerhouse of a documentary that will leave you both thunderstruck and boiling with rage."

spero meliora ...

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 3 years ago

n 1985, in "The Law That Never Was," William J. Benson and Martin J. Beckman argued that the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified. Congress and the Supreme Court have since repeatedly rejected this argument as false; additionally they found that Benson's sale of his research based argument, in the form of a "Reliance Defense Package," constituted fraud.

Be that as it may, there is little doubt that an apportioned tax without consent violates the very premise of a freedom acquired through revolution. Because taxes, as argued by our forefathers, constitute "slavery," which Lincoln defined with these words: "You work, and I'll eat."

Contrary to popular belief, the Rev was not fought over the issue of taxes per se but rather over the issue of taxes in light of corruption: James the First, just as one brief example, had a mistress that was receiving a stipend of 60,000 pounds a month. Incredible, right? And that's just one example of a long list of many.

If you are a person of average means, today, it is very easy to compute the yearly percentage of income that is levied as tax. We simply take total income, subtract savings, and begin deducting all expenses... mortgage payments, utility bills, car payments... Fed taxes, State taxes, property and local taxes... etc. What we are left with eventually is the disposable income that we have actually spent, and from that we can determine sales tax.

In New York, the total tax for a person of average means falls into the 35 - 45 % bracket and it continually rises. And for this, we receive very little from government, if anything at all. The tax levy, today, is construed as almost entirely of corruption in the form of special interests, very few of which would pass the test of consensus as aligning with the sentiment of a majority populace.

"Raise the taxes" is the cry this Democrat administration. And it was the cry of our last administration.

And it's not the bankers but the taxman. What we need in this country is a tax revolution, because taxation without our express consent is Un-American.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

@ betua$ : You sound as though you disagree with the whole idea and notion of tax and taxation.

Most of The 99% would probably settle for 'fair' taxation' as opposed to (for example) Exorbitant Income & Sales Taxes ; Lack of any Financial Transaction Tax & ... Firm, Just and Exemplary Action against behaviour as highlighted in http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf !

Further, you might want to research Pre-Revolutionary 'Colonial Scrip' and Abraham Lincoln's Civil War 'Greenback'. Control of Money Issuance and a Public or Private 'Central Bank' have been a constant theme in American history and most citizens would know this if it wasn't for The Systematic Miseducation of Americans !!

Finally, when you say "it's not the bankers but the taxman.", in a Properly Functional Democratic Society 'the taxman' works for The Government Of The 99% whereas The Corporate Banksters (& the rest of the 0.01%) are at The Apex of The Problem & Predicament We are all in ... et "adversus solem ne loquitor" !!!

& http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyu5sFzWLk8&feature=related ;-)

pax et lux ...

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 3 years ago

I don't agree that the bankers are at the apex... the top 20% of this country pay 90% of the taxes; when their investment income drops off so does tax revenue.

The fact that government is enabled can't be blamed on the lender, only on the corruption of politicians.

Taxation without consent is larceny; a tax of 100% would be abject slavery.

[-] -2 points by devilsadvocate (67) 3 years ago

Your a fuckin idiot who has no basis for what you are saying.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

Hmmm. Thanx for your reasoned analysis. Is your momma your sister and has she still got a 'purdy' mouth ?!

[-] 0 points by devilsadvocate (67) 3 years ago

Your post doesn't require a 'reasoned analysis' but I bet plenty think you got a 'purdy' mouth

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

& "I bet plenty think" that 'thinking' itself doesn't really is NOT your strongest suit, is it ?!

[-] 0 points by devilsadvocate (67) 3 years ago

Oh come on shad...you gave away your intelligence with the post. It's ok, your momma still loves you