Forum Post: Question - Why are so many of the middle class Americans ...
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 17, 2011, 3:35 p.m. EST by Warlynx
(64)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Question - Why are so many of the middle class Americans defending the ultra rich, the big corporations and financial institutions who really do not care for them?
- As employees they are getting next to nothing compared to the EXEC's of the corporations and companies
- As consumers they are paying through their ears for products and services which could be cheaper and lasted longer
- And as clients they are paying stupid amounts on tax and banking charges
So why care about the filthy rich who only use you as a stepping stone and who are paying less tax than you?
Have to ask, maybe it's because I am South African and in South Africa that I don't understand, but please enlighten me.
I must also say, even though I support the movement and what they are trying to accomplish I can not condone the violence, if you want to hit Government and Wall Street hard, do it the clever way, where it hurts in the right places, stop production, manufacturing, services, take away your money which you are giving to them for them to spend, and they will start listening.
I work for the 1% in a law firm. I make approximately one tenth of what my boss makes, HOWEVER, I do not own the company, he and the other partners do; I did not put my money in to start the company, they did; we (the employees) are part of a profit sharing plan. If the firm does well, we do as well, if not, then our profit sharing for that year is smaller. I CHOSE not to go to college and become a lawyer and seeing the amount of hours that my boss has to work in order to make his 1%, for me, not worth it. I was able to work flex hours so that I could always pick my kids up from school, be their class mom, I work 9-4, home by 4:10 p.m., dinner every night with my family, do you think the 1% that are partners at my firm get to do that, no, they don't. So people make choices in their lives. I don't hate my bosses, they have allowed me to work and live the way I want to, in return, I have worked very hard for them and will continue to do so. My husband and I have a home, investments, able to help our children through college and beyond and we have a wonderful life. I'm not a 1% and will never be, but we are in the top 5-7% in terms of our income. We weren't 25 years ago when we married, but through work, we are. not everyone who are in the 99% hate the 1%, only those who don't see the big picture.
The law firm that you work for is not considered the 1% according to the OWS definition. There are many companies such as the one you work for who are good honest folks to work for. They are not the targets of the protests.
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Melbel61 - You are not the focus of Occupy Wall Street's protest, nor is your company/law firm, from my understanding of the movement and your company; hard working people (presumably like yourself) should be able to have the kind of lifestyle you have. I believe in workers being treated with dignity and allowed to have a secure lifestyle and if they choose to become wealthy then that is the American dream but if they choose to have a simpler life without all the material excesses then they should still have a basic degree of security and not live in fear and virtual enslavement (virtual debtor prisons) where the captives are subjected to the whim of the captors through back door dealings in Congress. This concept is not hard nor complex however the notion has been so eroded by the chipping away at our constitutional rights that today’s generation does not know what it means to be able to be secure and part of the American Dream. – the guy in the thoid row.
Beautifully stated!
@melbel
I like your way of thinking, but what I like more is the fact that your boss and his partners gave you guys a profit sharing plan!
This means two things to me
Even though I am self leaning towards anarchism I know that the world is by far not ready for it, I believe that human being don't need to be policed or governed into a way which they don't need. But, as I say, as a global collective we are not ready for it yet, still way to many people caught up in the "Own Me" mindset, but that will gradually change.
For now incentives like the profit sharing plan will work just fine :)
Thanks for sharing!
<3 your response, I am with you on every point.
The fact that your bosses only make 10x your salary is amazing, and as a supporter and part of of the 99% , I have no problem with that sort of income gap. The problem is when those at the top of corporations are making 200x what the people at the bottom are making. Nobody is arguing that those at the top shouldn't make more than those at the bottom and in the middle - we're just arguing that they shouldn't make obscene salaries at the expense of the 99%.
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Those who jeer at our efforts for economic equity will eventually become part of the movement. The reason is simple: the entire global economy is not sustainable. The raping of the world economy by the parasites of Wall Street will catch up to everyone; including the 1 %. Its not rocket science. When a parasite kills off the host the parasite also dies off. The goal of this movement is to find non-violent methods for preventing total world wide economic collapse. The first objective towards this goal was ‘occupation’ which was very useful in waking people up to the fact that governments world wide were purchased by the parasites to foster their unbridled greed for money and power.
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Fantastic reality being avoided......
Exactly!
I used to believe in all that hard work stuff too. I used to work 14 hour days with a full-time and part time job, but I got sick of never seeing my daughter, not having any time for myself, and just relaxing. Now I just trade momentum for my account, my uncle, and a few others. I sit in front of a computer, watch the monitor a few hours in the morning and the afternoon and make more money in about 15 hours or less a week than I used to do in 14 hours per day. I made 7% on my triple DOW long overnight for me and my friends on Wednesday! Hard work is truly for suckers! True, my dad worked long hours to give a middle-class life for us, but I hardly ever saw him, and that sucked, and when had that heart attack at 54, that really sucked. But hard work now-a-days? Seriously? I'm done at 4PM EVERYDAY. Some weeks, I'm good by Monday morning!
I really can't help but laugh at this Hard Work pity party crap
Shop at your local Goodwill store, here's why:
Constructive and positive thinking there! I like
Well, from what I understand of people is that they learn from their own experiences. If someone has never had to struggle, never failed, never knew what it was like to be down and out, they don't truly understand it (or care about it). Or if they did struggle, maybe they never had to struggle like those who have had very difficult lives. So those in the middle class likely have been ok in life, and so they don't really sympathize with those who have had a much harder time. As long as they are getting their needs met, they may not care too much about the upper class and perhaps even things like the fall of social security etc, since they personally will be fine.
Then there is just the atmosphere of the country, of philosophy, of the rights of corporations and people to make as much as they can. People like this philosophy, and maybe think that the rich deserve their top dollar.
I personally think that life is unfair and that we should have a system that works for everyone. It isn't fair that people are born into this life and everything is already segregated and owned, and if you have a poor starting point and bad luck you can end up being on the outs throughout your life. It is easy to say for people to get a job, get a career etc, but it can be hard for some people to do this. If they grew up poor, or they have a mental handicap, it is hard for them to get into the workplace. I personally have had a hard life myself, come from a very poor family, but I am working and have a degree and everything. I sympathize though because I know what it is like, and I know how hard it is, and I know that some people maybe were in worse positions than I was. But for those who are in the middle class, maybe even want to one day be in the upper class, they want that dream alive of making loads of cash, and they don't understand the struggle of others who are not so lucky.
Wow! Thank you, Persephonie! You said it all. Many of those who have never struggled have no concept of what a life of struggle is like. Thank you for sharing your story.
Personally, I grew up in an upper middle class home...although my father came to this country as a very poor immigrant in the 1940's. He worked extremely hard to provide a good education and upbringing for his children. He taught me to work for everything...and work hard. Unfortunately, a series of bad investments and family tragedies left my father (now in his 80's) with little to show. I suffered my own set of tragedies and after working very hard for more than 20 years I became permanently disabled. I have been homeless with 2 kids in tow. Last week, I gave my 16 y/o daughter a loaf of bread for her birthday. I don't ask for sympathy from anyone...but I do ask for some understanding of the plight of those who have it or have had it rough. Obviously, I've been on both sides of the tracks....and I have a very difficult time relating to friends from my past (so I don't). There is a lack of understanding. There is a lack of humanity there. Those who have never had to struggle, have no concept...and no concern. It's a shame.
Again, thank you for your post!
I am trying to understand your plight so I don't want you to view this post as inflammatory, but how are you making these postings when you couldn't afford anything other than a loaf of bread for your daughters birthday? This kind of disparity can lead to a dismissal of the sincerity of your statement.
Touche. Eleven years ago (before my world turned upside down) I would have questioned my own authenticity after reading such a post. I HAVE BEEN homeless...past tense. Now I live in an apartment. I have enough money to pay rent, utilities, SOME necessary medical supplies, SOME food, and that's about it. I have $9 to feed us until Dec. 2nd. I could only spend $1 for my daughter's birthday. She wanted food. And if you truly want to understand my plight, think long and hard about what that does to a person's head after a decade. I can't physically go anywhere with my kids. I can't give them anything except love and whatever knowledge I have. My kids ask for food as a gift...FOOD! I'll simply leave it at that. Oh, and if you're wondering how I can post this...my neighbor allows me access to her internet.
What entitlement programs are you using to help get by? If you are getting aid can you break it down monthly for us to see? I'm interested to know. I have never had to live that way.
food stamps? medicare?
Truly a sad scenario that you are sketching, and it is very valid. Thanks Persephonie, and good on 'ya for getting that degree through all your challenges.
Keep well and thanks for the input
The middle class, the upper middle class, the middle ground rich and the rich, have more in common with one another, than any of these classes have with the ultra rich, yet it is certainly interesting to see support of the ultra rich; particularly at a time in the US, when the ultra rich do not have the slightest concern for any of them. Look at what the police are willing to do and these are no where near ultra rich. Strange, how the crabs pull one another back into the pot S! MJ
Your last sentence helps explain it. They do all feel as though they are in the same pot and whatever happens to the ultra rich will happen to them too and if it does, no matter how well they've planned for life, it could ruin them. You all are mostly responsible for making them feel that way.
Do you have any evidence to back your conclusion up? Can you demonstrate a causal relationship? Note, correlational studies cannot establish causation, so I am curious as to how you can generalize and make such blanket statements like:
"Your last sentence helps explain it. They do all feel as though they are in the same pot and whatever happens to the ultra rich will happen to them too and if it does, no matter how well they've planned for life, it could ruin them. You all are mostly responsible for making them feel that way."
Really? Evidence?
I am upper middle and that's exactly how I feel. All my associates do as well and we are on equal financial footing.
Your logical error is in generalizing to all upper middle class Americans, what is common, within your social circle. You and your associates share upper middle class attributes, but that does not mean that you are representative of the upper middle class, generally so. Guess what I am? I live in Scarsdale NY. If you don't know the neighborhood, it is one of the most affluent suburbs in the USA. I am a professionally educated man, currently seeking a small business to purchase, due to my lack of professional employment opportunities. Neither I, nor many of my upper middle class friends share your view, as expressed above. In point of fact, some of my neighbors, differ with my views and differ with your view, as expressed above. We should not depend on such generalizations, as you made about the upper middle class, though these generalizations may prove useful, within the context of our limited social circles.
I don't think people are supporting the rich. I just don't care one way or the other about them - they aren't part of my life. It seems that if you oppose OWS tactics, people think you support the ultra wealthy.
Well, I simply mean that the rich, like the vast majority of Americans tend to depend on their occupational incomes, for their standard of living. The wealth of the rich, like the middle class, tends to take the form of home equity, disproportionately so. The rich, unlike the ultra rich, are not in a position to maintain their standard of living, whether or not they get their occupational income and they are not the big tough, take America or leave her types. A medical doctor, in the USA, lives at a certain standard of living, he or she, could not reasonably expect in Europe, Asia or Eurasia or the remainder of North America, South America, etc. The American rich have more in common with the middle class, than John Galt. Good to chat with you! S! MJ
@MJMorrow - Yeah, I haven't seen many of the super and ultra rich taking the time off their hectic schedules in between going for cocktails, shooting a movie or boring us to death with their reality shows to stop and bother with the movement.
Self absorbed a-holes but hey, that is just my opinion ... there is nothing out there except "Dragons" right? No thought as to how their clothes get cleaned or who prepares the meals etc.
Amen. Maybe we can bring down the one fertile male ultra rich guy and then all the female ultra rich will be unable to reproduce and they will die out; that is, if they are like dragons, in more than one way, circa Reign of Fire! [giggle] Good to chat with you! S! MJ
Why not picket Hollywoood then? You are right that there are disgusting, self-absorbed wealthy people out there that think those who serve them deserve to do so. But this movement attacks small business owners who may have real relationships with their employees and who offer as much in benefits that they can. That is why many people cannot support this movement. It attacks many of us who have worked extremely hard against the odds for what we have and who have done our very best to treat others fairly.
Good point I would say.
Has the OWS ever indicated that they will head for Hollywood? Disrupting things down there will hurt their pockets because you are talking about huge amounts of tax they won't be getting
Lazy, stupid people (the very same people who call protesters lazy and stupid) believe what they see on TV.
What they see on TV is determined by the corporations that own and control the media and use it for their own benefit. 2/3 of all US media (television, print, radio) is controlled by 6 corporations. One of them - GE - is also a defense contractor and a financial corporation.
These people are unable and unwilling to think for themselves. They routinely vote against their own best interest because corporate talking heads on TV tell them to.
These people are so brainwashed that any fact, information, experience or point of view that is contrary to or that challenges their belief system is a threat to their existence.
Lazy, stupid people also believe everything that they read from people on blogs like this.
I say, if you want to know the truth about the movement, then get off your ass and get down to a local protest.
There's another way to look at it, which I posted in my top level reply. They can and must be won over.
The majority invariably starts by supporting government positions and actions that they inevitably turn against. The TARP bailout, Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, etc.
What will win them over is when they experience first hand the loss of their jobs, insurance, homes, communities, human rights, etc. The coming collapse of the global economy has the potential to create suffering on a scale the planet has not seen in recorded history.
Personally, I hope it does not come to that, and I hope such suffering is not necessary for people to realize the truth.
Go Bokke! It is all about fear, my friend. If they speak out, they think they won't get a job, or will get fired if they have one. This protest movement needs to focus on the top executives - the corrupt ones. They are easily identified. If they paid themself over 20 million in bonuses, you can be sure they are corrupt.
Yeah, greed and it's ill begotten child corruption, the global world killer indeed.
Fully concur with your plan there. Might have to consolidate the movement into one big movement too, the OWS protesters must decide, do the want to be socialistic anarchists or do they want to fix the problem now.
There are a lot of socialistic anarchists as you say. Many people have their own agenda. Personally, I think we need to focus, put a blowtorch, on these bonuses. If we rattle this cage enough, something will fall out, for sure. I cannot see that tell a few thousand people that they might have to survive on $300,000 for a year instead of $100,000,000 will cause many waves. The big guys are just "trying it on" as far as I can see. The should be informed that times have changed.
@OccupyLink
You know what is scary, I swear, I lived in a bubble for the last 4 years. I was so fixated on corruption and problems at home that I didn't notice all the other countries who are sitting with the same dammed problem. What opened my eyes was the uprisings in the Middle East, and then the OWS movement, and it has really set my mind in motion regarding the corrupt in high places.
Example, South Africa's parastatal electricity provider has pushed up power 25% last year, 30% this year, and plan on another 25-30% next year, mean while taking out loans with the World Bank to develop cleaner ways of supplying energy and to build new power stations.
Paying their EXEC's huge bonuses at the end of the year (we are talking millions) while the "worker bees" get a measly 7% while some EXECs got an increase of 109% ... I would like to borrow that blowtorch of yours when you are done with it ;)
I just think that people get sidetracked with all sorts of personal crusades or even just living in a bubble, as you mentioned. I tend to blame systems rather than people. As you know, people can quickly adjust. After all, they had to in South Africa when Mandella took over. I just cannot understand why the Banks are giving away their profits (if they have any) with these bonuses. How can they build up the business. I would sort them out first. At the AGM, ask they Chairman why Mr. X needs $100,000,000 for one year to survive on. Ask whether we really need Mr. X or whether we can get in Ms. Y to work for $300,000 instead.
@OccupyLink - I support the sacking of Mr X if Ms Y can do exactly the same work, without having to employ advisers to help her do it. That is the logical approach
@Warlynx: South Africa is probably trying to reduce greenhouse gas emission. South Africa was right in there with China, Brazil, India, and the U.S. in Copenhagen in 2009 to reach the 2.0 Celsius global warming accord. It probably saw the very dire potential of hundreds of millions of Indians and Chinese (and lots of other countries, too) migrating due to extensive droughts (monsoons bypassing the Himalayas altogether due to warming). South Africa had been oil-embargoed for a long time due to its apartheid so it became very coal-dependent. Shifting away from coal, the CHEAPEST fossil fuel available, means South Africans will probably see some of the largest price increases in electricity rates. Before using a blowtorch, please find out why the rate increases are so high. I often found that my immediate reactions to stressors tended to go overboard. Yes, the EXEC's huge bonuses are an issue but you can try to influence the board of directors after discovering how the company really makes the money. A hit to the bottomline (profit) hurts and will be noticed.
Because you will always have the filthy rich and most of the middle class is happy. I am happy. I have my guitar and my dogs, I am happy.
Truly is the "little" things in life that makes one happy :) Glad you found that spot.
I make 50,000 a year. I chose my free time over money. Worked in the burgeoning PC world in the 80s, hated being in an office all day, but if I had stuck around I'd have made plenty of money. Became a teacher. I feel content with my income/chosen field and am happy with my life. I made my choices in life. Have met many 1 percenters during a 3 year stint in NYC working temp work in WS area and I didn't care one way or the other about them - they were what they were. Their choice.
I don't defend them. I just don't care about them. Should they pay more taxes? Yes. Should we get corporation monies out of campaigns? yes. Union money, which is equal to or greater out of campaigns? yes.
Banking charges don't bother me too much. I use my debit card for everything. Pay all my bills online through my bank and set up auto pay for many payments so I don't get late charges. Deposit checks with my app by taking a picture of it. It has made my life easier.
Are Americans really suffering? No. They haven't a clue what real suffering is.
Union money isn't equal to or greater than corporate money? Where did you hear that?
unions give as much if not more to political campaigns. shouldnt we get that money out of politics too? but unions are all involved in this movement. not that that is wrong, but their political involvement needs to be addressed too.
That's not what I heard. Worker contributions pale in comparison to big business contributions. But, yes, we should get all big sums of money of money out of politics and limit per person contributions to lower levels so as to equalize the playing field. It should be one person one voice, not one rich person one voice and everyone else no voice.
Come to my neighborhood. We don't have mortars going off, but...
I teach inner city high school and live in a neighborhood with gunfire - have had a man killed outside my back gate. I know what poor in America looks like. I also know what it looks like in third world countries, having been to many. I know there is inequality here, but I also know my kids have a way out...
Because they are inundated with a 24/7 Main Stream Media Corporate Brainwashing.
Because they are taught to hate critical thought.
Because they spend more of their lives at their workplace than any other people in the Western World.
Many people are deluded they will be one of the privileged some day and side with those they want to be, that is why a school yard bully typically has a gang following them and no one sticks up publicly for the ridiculed.
Very true. All too many Americans have a far off dream of success and want to make sure those imaginary dollars are protected for the day they (never) enter their bank accounts.
Because Americans, God bless their naivety, still believe in the American dream. So some poor bastard in Pudunksville that has nothing, and never will have anything, has been brainwashed into thinking that tomorrow he too will be a multi-millionaire. So, on that basis, it is fine that the 1% have more than they have ever had (except just before the Great Depression) because he thinks he will be one of them. His innocence would be sort of endearing if it wasn't so pathetic.
Put perfectly.
Does it occur to you that many many people do not measure their success by how much money and stuff they have? Our lives don't revolve around money. We are content with what we have - even if it isn't that much. It is still more than most on the planet.
It's a typical centrist reaction to a new movement. They said exactly the same things verbatim about the civil rights movement, the anti-war movement, and the Nuclear Freeze movement, to name only the ones I know about. I think that these are people taken up completely in their own lives--raising children, caring for parents, and so on. Instability frightens them. They have enough on their plate right now.
They also have as much of a deep-seated sense of justice and injustice as anyone here. Persistence and strict non-violence will win them over in the end.
Try to be patient with them. Many are the very people whose plight is the subject of the protests. They are a bit like our own children were while they were growing up: they need you more than anything, so they give you no end of backtalk and trouble and question everything you say.
@bugbuster - That makes sense, also I like this - "Persistence and strict non-violence will win them over in the end."
Violence from OWS side will just give Government a reason to clamp down hard on the movement and to turn into a militaristic state with diminishing freedoms.
I am already worried out the plans to "censor" the Internet State side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
It's the disease of affluence.
Many in America associate 99% of their value to material wealth and in turn place money ahead of family, social, and personal values.
And through this value distortion they are forced to justify their beliefs (and way of life) by associating themselves with ultra-wealthy callous businesses/banks and other proponents of the monetary system. They defend the status quo because they lack a sense of self purpose, direction, and accomplishment without the current financial systems.
And this is also why so many demand a clearly defined purpose, direction, and goal in this movement. They need all important matters done for them which in turn is why so many receive their information primarily from main stream sources. Courageous self-sustaining principle oriented people are a rare breed in America.
True, they support them because they have fear about lost job.
The short, simple answer: Most middle class Americans are complacent...and those who do want change, don't want to be inconvenienced.
It's because most Americans stop caring about the rights of others once they find out theirs are secured.
That hits home, and hard, plus it seems to be a global thing, not only limited to America.
People all over the world need to drastically change their way of thinking, this is why I have hopes for movements like OWS, but from what I have gathered it's lost legitimacy and momentum ... sad indeed
Maybe it's because once a person becomes rich, the leaches come out of the woodwork and want to bleed them dry.
so sad.... i havent heard the news from wall street for a long time, but what happens here reminds me a lot of the protest in israel. i really dont understand why do people look for the things they disagree on, instead of looking for things they do agree on. i cannot understand, how does someone that is unemployed conciders himself a middle class that is not a part of the protest. why do people stand aside and look instead of taking action, become a part and change what they think is wrong about the protest. i think its all excuses of why to sit at home without admitting that they were already broken by the government and have no power to fight.
gather yourself! stand out for what you believe in! you are the only protest that has a worldwide power to change and move other countries.
stay strong
I would say because I really only agree with part of one of your points. I pay too much in taxes. The changes to the tax structure that would impact the 1% would likely impact me as well, so I'm against it. I pay bank fees when I use banks. I dint ever find them excessive or I go to another bank. I have a mortgage and I pay it early every month. Only those who have a mortgage they can't afford complain about unfairness. Live within your means and that won't happen. I pay less for items by shopping at corporate owned businesses. Not more. It's the small town places that have to charge more and their products aren't necessarily better. When I find one that is, I buy it instead. I earn what I make off of my own production. It's a little less than what some other corps pay for that same work, but the mission here is more to my liking. I get paid based on how hard I work. We should all be paid that way. I have yet to feel stepped on by anyone. Probably because I take responsibility for my own situation and choices, good or bad. Something else we should all do instead of blaming others for our own misfortune.
Thanks NotYour99, very rational answer
You're quite welcome.
We are not. We disagree with your approach. The middle class either wants to stay middle class or WORK HARDER to get into the upper tier as we have seen so many. Yes, it is possible to do that if you try ACTUALLY WORKING.
Try working 17 hours a day to get to that goal.
@otherwise: your attitude is admirable but the OLD model of success that you advocate is broken and obsolete. I really wish that you were correct but having seen how so many different things unfolded (such as the 2007 credit crisis and 2008 great recession) over the years in the U.S., I feel the need to speak up. Too many people in the U.S. were working HARD and not paying attention to the shenanigans that the colluding "elites" perpetrate on our society. You can climb up the ladder of success one rung and they have lowered the ladder two rungs. Have you noticed that? We bailed out the bankers with almost 0-percent interest so they will not strangle our economy. In return, they did not help jump-start main street and instead hoard those billions and billions of dollars in treasuries collecting interests from the taxpayers. They called it shoring up the reserves to protect them from potential bank runs. Is it not a social contract broken by the bankers? What job are you working at? I see that automation will take over much of the service sector as well. It already took over the manufacturing sector. There will be even more competition for the shrinking jobs market. A radical rethinking of our economic system is in order if our society is to retain its domestic tranquility. So far I really see only two ways: reducing each person's workload or distributing equity to everyone so that they can enjoy their leisure freed from work and not having to worry. Of course, we need to give them something worthwhile to occupy themselves with. Some of them may think of better ways. It takes free time to think and thinking can show us how to change the world into a better place for all. We need to overcome our parochial tunnel vision because ultimately extending our boundary of love makes sacrifices more bearable. Most of us do not gripe about our sacrifices for our children, right? We are all mother earth's children although there may be too many of us at the present time. Great supply decreases the price so upholding values that we hold dear means we need to reduce our population, preferably through benign means of our own choosing and not what nature chooses for us inevitably.
How is it obsolete? I got my FIRST fulltime job in late 2007. I have worked my way up to being a very young up and coming professional as did many of my colleagues.
I think you are mixing your own misfortune of picking wrong choices that did not suit your strengths or your own strengths did not suit your ideals.
Well child of mother earth. Time to find a new planet and explore the universe.
Obsolete as you will understand when you find out who gets the lion's share of the fruits of your labor. The financial types will trade you for their larger bonuses. They will play financial games to boost short-term gains but make detrimental mistakes that devastate your corporation in the long run. I was elected board director at age 19 and headed my corporation at age 23. I know how things work because I was there in the boardroom. I do not regret my choice of work because I knew that I made major differences in the world. However, I did need to keep myself abreast of what was happening in the world (it is not easy to stay on top of the business beast if one is not alert riding it) so I felt pity for the folks who had bought into an obsolete and unworkable economic model. I hope that you learn enough in time to spare yourself some pain later. This planet suits me just fine and for the foreseeable future it will be home for all of us. I can explore the universe sitting from my chair with Google Earth. Yes, the mind is quite an incredible thing if one knows how to nourish it. Sorry - rereading your post, I realize that you perhaps have no idea how hard it is to get off of the Earth. What is the launch cost for a pound of equipment sent into low-earth orbit? Why can't the U.S. go to the International Space Station using its own rockets or spaceships? Why did the U.S. scuttle its manned space projects? I once day-dreamed about that (finding a new habitable planet was very enticing for me as a child and I do not think that I was exceptional in that dream), too, but knowing about COSTS made me see the light. There IS no escape from this good Earth anytime soon. The solutions to our problems must be terrestrial.
So what? You being at a board director means nothing. What type of business was it? How were you elected? Were you a trust fund baby? Just naming positions doesn't impress me.
I could have created my own business at the age of 12. I have been working a job since I was 13.
You've got it quite close. Yes, connections made a difference but in the end one has to stand on ones' own two feet. It helps that one learns to serve others, too, because money came from customers and happy customers tend to make one well off. Even money has its limits, too, perhaps you will learn that once you've got gobs of it. No pile of money lasts forever. When you lie on your deathbed, do you show people around you your bank account and tell them how successful you have been at life because you piled up so much MONEY? I know the legacy I want for the people around me. Do you?
I like your inquisitiveness. Those who can ask questions are much closer to the answers than those who cannot. Working with a major shareholder, excelling at doing the not-so-fun work, and helping to build up a new venture helped me to be elected. People love dogs for very good reasons, especially faithful dogs that will bark and perhaps bite. For you, if 401k be available to you and you know how to ride the economic beast, it can really become a real "gold mine" in your later years. I lament that too many in our economy were not taught the skills in schools to do that. I hated economics in my younger years because it was required of me but I appreciate the intention now, although at the time it really did not make any sense at all.
Well it is safe to say that my "legacy" with my friends and family is all cemented not through money. Through actions. Loved by some, hated by others respected by all.
Yes I have a well manged 401K. I have no need for financial advice. I am very well versed in all that. Economics is childs-play in school. Finance was fun in school.
Anywho don't agree with what OWS is doing at all. They should have changed things by lobbying and telling their congress person what they want in a cohesive message. It's kind of retarded to just sit in a park screaming and whining. Get an ORG and LOBBY.
Good for you - taking advantage of the 401k opportunity and knowing what your "legacy" would be (perhaps you will make one fewer person who will gripe about Medicare, Social Security, and Medicaid cuts that will inevitably come).
You sound much smarter than the average Joe and Jane. Perhaps you can lead the others in helping them get what they want. Teach and show them the way. As I gathered, a cohesive message is NOT what OWS was striving for because a simple list would have allowed the authorities to respond by saying, "We have gone through your list. These are our responses. Now go home!" That would have been detrimental to the young movement's growth. Furthermore, if there were cohesion into an OWS leadership group, the authorities could have easily decapitated the movement by targeting the group.
It was not totally retarded to sit in a park screaming and whining because it had attracted attention which was what OWS needed to change the course of our national discourse. I agree though that camping through the brutal New York winter in a park does not make much sense (it invites frostbites and sufferings). Taking a break till warmer weather may be better. I think OWS people may not have had tried lobbying Congress and their perception is that gobs of money is required. The perception is not totally true because the politicians need votes to retain power so they can be very responsive at critical moments when THEIR jobs are at stake, regardless of how much campaign money they got from the "elites". After all, the campaign money was gathered for influencing the average Joe and Jane's votes which are subject to independent non-elite educational influence. It is critical though that someone smart (perhaps you) spends time identifying the critical moments and exerts influence. To take money out of politics, the average Joe and Jane must be vaccinated against the influence of the campaign money.
haha you're funny I concede to your point no sarcasm intended
Scott Brown (R-MA) voted for ending the U.S. Senate discussion to have a vote on whether to confirm Richard Cordray as the head of the Consumers Financial Protection Bureau. Isn't his vote "surprising" with almost all Republican senators blocking the confirmation vote? Take a look at Massachusetts politics with Elizabeth Warren running for Scott Brown's old Ted Kennedy senate seat. Massachusetts' average Joes and Janes have probably exerted influence that did NOT require gobs of money although Elizabeth Warren's senate bid helped at a critical moment for Scott Brown's vote.
who "enjoys" working 17 hours a day? sounds like slavery and that you are a shallow person who WANTS more and more. for what? at what price? where are you taking all of this wealth to in the end? I hope that you are at least doing a job that has some meaning and something that you enjoy.
I Enjoy working 17 hours a day. I love my job. What price? You seem as if I don't have a choice NOT to do it. Although I don't work 17 hours a day everyday( maybe like 6 weeks worth of days a week)
No, I want to work like this. I enjoy my work. I work with great people who I learn a lot from. I got my education to do this. I make sacrifices of my SOCIAL life to work harder so I can move up.
Yeah, you would question it because you have never had a real job in your life that you enjoyed. Go find a job you want to be the best at. That's what I did.
@otherwisee - Would you want more than what you can use in a lifetime? If so, why?
I just don't think about myself. I think about my children and my children's children. I think about the excess money that I CAN give to others and the extra time I can use with the money to VOLUNTEER to help others. I will also make enough money to help our any of my families if needed. Your question is totally SELFISH.
I bet you ask yourself that question all the time. You only want to work enough that will sustain YOURSELF.
I enjoy what I do, where most people would not enjoy my job. Sucks for people who don't. Also the time I do not enjoy my job I take a vacation at home or elsewhere to cool down. Maybe you all should learn to work hard and think not just about yourself, but others. It sound like none of you carried anyone on your backs because you loved them. I for one have no problem with that and will never make it sound obligatory.
@otherwisee - It was not an attack on you, it was just a question. Relax.
Just to sketch you a background picture
I have been working since I left school, I helped started a Telecoms company, and I am currently busy getting two new companies off the ground, small little things, more of a hobby. I am also busy studying, but things are going slowly, and I might be finished with my masters in 7 years the way it's going now because I take a lot of time off to read, and write.
The question was not selfish, it was just to try and figure out what type of person you are.
Clearly you said you don't mind sharing with your family and you also said you can give that money to those who need it etc, so you are not some sort of villain in my eyes.
But in the future, don't launch personal attacks on people you know little about.
You and the original OWS movement have more in common than you think.
No, we have nothing in common. My goal is to be part of the top 10% in this country. I don't care how many countless hours I work, I will not whine or throw tantrums in public.
I will work harder, get smarter and figure out a way to be better than everyone else.
We have nothing in common. I live off of other people being lazy. I will do the work they don't want to do and more.
So the part about where you want to work harder so you can help other people was not the truth?
Your reply makes no sense. I will help other hard workers who are at their low point.
Just like right now, I helped an intern who was a hard worker get a full time job. Just got a thank you letter thanks.
Actually when I was an intern trying to find a job I helped someone else get a job before I even got mine.
@otherwisee
I'm quoting you - "I think about the excess money that I CAN give to others and the extra time I can use with the money to VOLUNTEER to help others. I will also make enough money to help our any of my families if needed."
As I said, you have a lot in common with these people, you help people in need, they are also helping people in need, those who don't even realise they are in need
Good then they can do what I do without throwing tantrums out on the street in front pretending to represent us 99%.
They do not. 90% of wall street workers are MIDDLE CLASS. The fact you delayed them going to work shows you are not in touch with the demographics of wall street people.
The 10% Include your Warren Buffets. Why do you guys get him and all teh other billionaires to agree to a rise on capital gains ,income and dividend taxes for people who makes 5 million or more a year because anyone making less than that can break their bank.
Ok, this is going nowhere ... and not to be rude, but if you haven't picked up by now that I am NOT part of the OWS movement with obvious statements in my original post then I don't know ... is there a point in taking this discussion any further?
Nope. I just don't feel like I need to be questioned about my life. Whether or not you are with the movement.
Yes, there is a widening gap. The Big guys like Warren Buffet need to stop hoarding.
They do not care to share their money. They want to be forced to give their money away.
Paying less tax then me? What are you smoking?
Yeah, that's right. @ 65,000, my tax bracket is 25%. I pay a higher percentage than the super wealthy who pay abut 15%.
The super-wealthy pay, on average, about 50%. Where do you get these lovely statistics? I mean...BESIDES "where the sun don't shine".
Occupy Capitol hill is correct. The super wealthy billionaires pay close to 50%. The other millionaires plus upper middle class pay 35-40% of the taxes of this country.
By the way. This is not about who pays the highest percent of the total taxes collected. I am talking about the percentage of each individuals income. Of course the billionaire will contribute more money than me. He/She makes more money! 25% percent of $65,000 VS 25% of $65,000,000,000. It better damn well equal out to them paying half of the total taxes! And if they paid their FAIR share, it would probably be much higher.
Politifact says: Its true! "The "mega-rich" pay about 15 percent in taxes". What statistics tell you otherwise?
The pay a different type of tax...not an income tax.
If they are American Citizens they should not be treated differently. Fairly tax all capital gains.
You can get taxed at 15% if you invested your money the way warren buffet did.
Actually you'd get taxed at 5% if you invested rather than 15% that Warren Buffet gets. So if you did what he did you'd get taxed 10% LESS!
A lot of you should really speak to your tax accountants for these types of plannings!
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/aug/18/warren-buffett/warren-buffett-says-super-rich-pay-lower-taxes-oth/
Okay first off he's in a special situation with taxes. He pays capital gains tax/qualified dividend, because he does something else. I'm not exactly sure, but I am sure its' one or the other.
He makes himself a shareholder of a pay co and the pay co pays him a Qualified dividend. That dividend gets taxed at 15%. Usually only super wealthy can do this. ie: billionaires. Most of wall st are not billionaires.
And the "millionaires" warren buffet has under him get paid big money, but they pay more taxes because they are not taking dividends and are taking Regular checks in. So they get taxed 35%or more taxes nor the 15% Warren buffet pays.
In fact most corporate people make under 100k a year.
I don't have a problem with anyone who is paying their fair share. I have no problem with millionaires who pay their taxes. 35% is the highest bracket. So anyone making over $379,000 pays this and I commend them for doing so. It is the super rich who buy our politicians and get away with not paying their fair share that I have a problem with. And I can't understand why both democrats and republicans (American voters) refuse to address this issue.
okay well you're barking up the wrong tree. They are not corporations. Corporations pay their fair share of taxes.
It is the shareholder billionaires that DO NOT. Please look up forbes magazine and protest them instead.
Wall street has so many different types of people. Most are Middle class to upper middle class. The super rich are at the top and while yes they are the faces of our companies. They are not the companies themselves.
Ok then. The corporations will fall in line once regulations get put back in place. (those would be the regulations that the shareholder billionaires paid our politicians to remove) and they need to be held accountable. We need to get them OUT of our political system.
There are more regulations now for Wall street. They are enacting quite a few. So why are you protesting again?
Well there aren't that many billionaires out there. Look up Forbes magazine and plat yourself in front of their houses.
Okay there is a big difference between how you get paid as well as most WALL STREETERS get paid versus the super billionaires, which warrent buffet forgets to mention. Warren buffet has a pay company that pays him a dividend as he is a shareholder of that pay company. This 15% treatment IS ONLY for INDIVIDUALS NOT I repeat NOT for CORPORATIONS. Warren buffet's employees get taxed as you normally do 35+% if they are millionaires because they get paid with a paycheck.
You are comparing apples to oranges.
I don't have a problem with anyone who is paying their fair share. I have no problem with millionaires who pay their taxes. 35% is the highest bracket. So anyone making over $379,000 pays this and I commend them for doing so. It is the super rich who buy our politicians and get away with not paying their fair share that I have a problem with. And I can't understand why both democrats and republicans (American voters) refuse to address this issue.
Warren Buffett - Go read up on what he said about the taxation of the ultra rich in America
The top 1% pays 70% of total income tax revenues in this country.
I am sure they can pay more, means a couple of less Gucci bags per year, but being the super stars they are I am sure they won't mind.
By the way, how much of that 70% of their go towards funding the American War machine? You don't think that there are other things that need some more cash in America?
Why should they pay more? They worked hard and earned their right to the fruits of their labors. Who are you to suddenly deserve their money? On what grounds? Because you feel robbed? Maybe if you had worked as hard as they did, studied which markets were profitable, and employed yourself in those markets, maybe you'd feel different about people trying to stick their hands into YOUR paycheck.
It's all so appealing to you because you're the one doing the real stealing. The 1% who are already taxed on half their income would beg to differ.
I quote Buffet here
"As an example, Buffett said he paid an effective tax rate of 17.4 percent, while people who worked in his office made much less but paid higher effective tax rates of between 33 percent and 41 percent, averaging 36 percent."
@OccupyCapitolHill - There is just no point in hoarding, why would you need more than you can use in a life-time? Instead of hoarding why don't they: A) Create new business opportunities and thus create more job? B) Distribute their profitable income between their employees in the form a bonus incentive scheme which will up performance of the company as a whole and deliver services and products of superior quality?
Is there any logical reason why one would want to hoard and have as much as possible while driving past the man on street who does not have any of it?
The Buffett quote is ridiculous. 1st, just because he says he paid 17.4% tax rate doesn't mean he did. He could be fibbing, he could be exaggerating, who knows. And in any event, even if he was paying that little, that's JUST Warren Buffett. That doesn't mean EVERY wealthy person in this country gets a break.
And why don't they? Because when economic recessions happen, you need a safety net to be able to get your business out of the dumps. There are unplanned expenses that may need to be paid. How many TRILLIONS of dollars in tax money did the stimulus package cost? Now imagine if the mega-corporations had to bail themselves out. Don't you think it would be WISE to have a good enough net of capital to catch yourself in to stop the damage? And besides, it's their profits. They've earned it. You have no right to take it because they "have enough".
You're trying to tap into this communist feeling of guilt that one has more money than someone else, and it doesn't draw any sympathy from capitalists like myself. The guy on the street who does not have any of it should seek to work for the guy who does have money so that he can climb the corporate ladder and become the NEXT guy who makes a load of cash.
Wealth is not a right, it is a privilege, but once that privilege is earned, it should be earned. Not arbitrated to somebody else because some other power decides you have enough.
No, no it's not communist. It's what being human is all about, nobody said you TAKE from the rich and GIVE to the poor.
But you do share in the profit. No need to hoard profit, only reason you do that is you are greedy.
If you can look at a guy across the road who is down and out and suffering without any empathy (regardless of how he got there) then you might just as well be the founding father of "Apartheid".
Pretty sad that someone will trade in the only thing that puts him apart from the rest of the animals on this planet, namely his humanity, for extras.
It's not hoarding though, its what I said before, an economic safety net that should exist to protect yourself from your company going under.
Super rich rarely need a safety net, and if they need one, I am pretty sure they can get buy, survive and start up again if they share their multi-million dollar profit's, which are currently only being used to fund lavish lifestyles ... not living a normal life
Again, their lavish lifestyles are their reward for venturing into the unknown of entrepreneurship and succeeding.
Again, most of them are leading lavish lifestyles because they most likely stepped on the "little guy" (people like) who works for them and never shared in the profit.
Point being, their companies can't be what they are without the input of their workforce, that is why I say instead of the CEO dragging home for example 1,000,000 at the end of the here in profit, why does he not share 200,000,000 of that with him employees who helped him to achieve his lavish lifestyle?
The answer is simple, greed and the loss of his or her humanity.
But I am not here to try and convince you, you are your own person, if want to be the guy trampled on, so be it, if you want to aspire to be the rich tycoon living the lavish lifestyle at the cost of his humanity, so be it and good luck with your future plans.
I really think there is a complicated divide. Seemingly, the American economy in its current form doesn’t have much of a back bone (i.e. manufacturing for instance being shipped overseas). Globalization has been misunderstood and misrepresented by the ultra rich for sometime—but the reality [also] for a long time (especially from the 1940s onward to sometime in the late 1990s was that—if someone was smart about and hard working enough, there were jobs to go around; and people were doing ok). That is not the case any more in America…And more recently, what you’re seeing is highly educated people (graduate degrees plus; and especially new college grads) now unable to find jobs or pay down student debt (sold to everyone under the guise that—don’t worry take on debt, you will find good jobs to pay it down”). But, overall, understand that many people are still doing ok…that is what I think the original poster is confounded by (above)…However, more and more what you’ll see are the lawyers and engineers, etc. and other professionals out of work or taking horribly low paying jobs while executives (in the “club” or at the table) take million dollar bonuses while bailed out corporations like AIG fail and middle of the road Americans' homes are re-possessed, etc…However, although there are still a large part of the educated elite who still actually have plenty of opportunities [i.e. jobs] to get by with; but don’t be fooled— THOSE opportunities are shrinking every single day. The "sham myth" of the service economy can’t support the nation when the vast majority's economic means or net worth have been bleed dry to negative -0 (e.g., the middle class won’t be even be able to afford to shop at Wal-Mart soon)…that is when the system will most likely completely implode (there are current signs its going to happen in Europe sooner at the moment)…So, again, OWS is headed in the right direction (the great debate has begun!); and this movement is a big start; and, sadly the main stream media neither understands nor appears to not want to understand what the vast majority of the world’s populace is protesting about…(doesn’t matter though—this media is NOW in our hands; the main streamers are dead)…when more and more of the average or even elite professionals can’t find work, you see this movement continue to grow and explode…
Yeah, these type of demonstrations are popping out all over hey? I for one can say I am glad about it. Just needs more direction in some form.
I'm not saying the movement should be anarchistic, even though I tend to lean towards that side of the fence, because the current global mindset I believe can't handle anarchism responsibly.
But overall, I support the various movements who seem to have the same "goal" if you can put it that way :)
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1.) The execs are in positions of responsibility and have shown themselves capable of handling it. They deserve more - yes, a LOT more.
2.) Only if we can break the stranglehold of unions. Or haven't you heard how much the average UAW worker makes in wages and benefits?
3.) I agree, but so are the execs, so we're all in that boat together.
4.) They don't pay less tax. In fact, I just posted this morning how the top 1% makes 21% of the income and pays about 40% of the tax. Sounds much more than fair to me; in fact if anything I think we should organize marches of thanks to them instead of marches of protest.
@ImDoingFine
I don't want to go out on a limb here, but I am willing to bet a couple of R's that execs got where they are by "stepping" on the average middle class, and low income group who work for them. If your execs are the same as the ones we have here in South Africa (should be, we follow the same economic system) then it is fact. I doubt that anyone is shouting "Take their property and redistribute it amongst the poor" but what I can say is that big corporations should instead of declaring for example 1,000,000 profit a year bring it down to lets say 600,000 a year and share the profit through incentive based performance bonus plans with the equally important employees of the company on which the success and profit was build.
If makes sense that they will be paying 40% of the tax, since their income is so high, scary to think that 1% can contribute that much money. But the point one of the earlier posters made, and which Warren Buffett also made is that he pays 17% income tax while people working for him pays up to 35%, not sure why he gets the huge tax breaks though.
Someone said he could be lying, but why would he lie, and why would Obama build a policy because of what Buffett said had it not been the truth.
But thanks for the input, all of the info makes it easier for me to get my mind around the whole movement, though I am agreeing with some of on the forum that I believe it has been hijacked by, well, a couple of bad apples.
I have known quite a fair number of CEO's and they were all decent, honest folks who got where they are by being exceptionally sharp, intelligent, and talented at what they do. No doubt there are some (many, even) who used dirty tactics, but you have to admit, they're still in positions of great responsibility. And from my experience, I'd say the nasties are in the minority.
Regarding the super-rich paying only 17% tax, etc., the fact remains that less than a third of that tax goes to anything they benefit from. The rest goes to pay for other peoples' retirements and medical costs. So regardless of what percentage they pay, it remains that most of what they're paying is pure benevolence on their part (albeit legislatively-enforced benevolence) since they do not and never will benefit from the programs they're financing.
By the way, a publicly-traded corporation's profits go to their shareholders, many or most of whom are ordinary citizens who are trying to build a retirement fund, and who do pay taxes on their share of the corporation's profits.
Its really quite simple, stupid. The OWS is a load of bull shit coming from lazy greedy losers.
We, the middle class Americans who love this country, don't want anything to do with this movement which has proven to be directionless, leaderless, Marxist, violent, disturbing and disgusting. These protesters are not a cross section of 99% of the American population, and they do not speak for me or anyone that I know! That's why the middle class is not visibly involved on a large scale.
@DudleyE
Heya Dudley, thanks for the answer, yours also make sense taken all of the above mentioned into consideration.
But, do you think the average middle class American would come out in support of the movement if they get some structure, drop the Marxist / Anarchistic tendencies, be non-violent, and not so disgusting (not sure how they are disgusting?)
Sadly, they such a movement will cause disruptions, but that would be because of downing tools and refusing to work, which might lead to you not having water for a day or 3 etc, if they follow a non-violent path
That ship has sailed, this movement has lost it's luster so to speak. And the more this group does to disrupt my life personally, the more pissed of I and the general public will become at your childish antics. That's what they are, minus the violence of course. You would have to do a serious about face and start behaving like responsible, law abiding adults for an extended period of time to change the now negative public opinion of this movement.
Oh, and if anyone feels the need to refuse to work I would gladly take their job as I find myself out of one at the moment. Striking workers should receive their walking papers if they want to walk the picket protest for socialism on my dime.
Lost your job? Too bad. Maybe one day the light bulb will go on and you will join the movement. Then again, maybe not.
Not a chance. I lost my construction job due to a lack of work because of the economic conditions brought about by socialism meddling in the formerly free market. I don't agree that the solution to this is to install total socialism in our society, sacrificing my rights in the process. If you usefuls think that by going for communist totalitarianism with the unions at the helm is going to create jobs, you're either high, stupid, or just plain nuts.
Socialism meddling in the free market? LOL
Socialism was TARP, bailing out the banks that crashed the global economy after the mortgage crisis they created to bail themselves out of the housing bubble they created.
In a free market the banks would have failed. But the government (run by the banks) got YOUR taxes to bail them out. That's socialism.
Actually, I would argue that the stimulus package reinforced capitalism because the money that the government lent to the banks was used by the banks and made profit for them, not the state. The banks got to keep those profits. The bailouts actually reinforced capitalism and stabilized it. Had the government kept the profits that those banks made then it would be socialism.
Wrong 88, the government chose which banks to bailout with their loans, that doesn't reinforce capitalism or the free market. That's crony capitalism, aka socialism, where the government decides what businesses should offer customers and which businesses succeed and fail.
The government took taxpayer money and gave it to the banks. Classic example of redistribution of wealth from the working many to the already rich.
That's capitalism? You've just proven my point that capitalism is which is really socialism for the wealthy.
No argument there, nucleus, except that the banks weren't alone in creating the bubble. It was the governments idea, and they pushed the banks to be a part of it. The banks went along because they stood to make a shitload of cash.
The bailouts need to stop, for sure, and should have never happened to begin with. But it wasn't the banks who controlled the money in the bailouts, it was the government seeking to gain more power over the financial sector. Whoever pays the piper calls the tune, and lately the money has been flowing from the government and the Federal Reserve. If you want to protest banks, that's the only one worth the effort because they're the ones who, with the government, are controlling everything.
This is the one issue that I'd support OWS on, and the one issue that the Tea Party and OWS should be on the same page with.
You've got it backwards. The government works for the financial sector. The government is OWNED by the financial sector.
Nope, the financial sector is owned by the Federal Reserve, which is a private corporation but was created by the government. It is within government power to pull their charter so government has the power of legislation and regulation here. And we have the power over the government (in theory at least). It's the Federal Reserve that we should be focusing on, and their relationship with government.
The government won't pull the Fed Charter because the government is owned by the banks. That is why the Fed was established in the first place!
About 25% of the Federal Reserve is constituted by foreign banks.
http://www.ny.frb.org/aboutthefed/fedpoint/fed26.html
It is a pity that the ship has left the harbour and that there are people like you you feel disgruntled at the OWS protesters.
I believe they are really doing this for the right reasons, and if they get it right to change Government's view on things that you will also benefit from it.
And another thing, why is your limey ass a part of this conversation anyway? This is an American issue, is it not? Wall Street is not located in London!
Hehehe, I am not in London
South Africa
I'm following all of the major global protests against greed and corruption, because I am honestly worried that governments around the globe are abusing their labour force.
For the right reasons? Lynx, the road to Hell is paved with the best of intentions. I'm sure that there are some good people around who really believe in this thing, but when you're wrong, you're wrong.
You sound like reasonable person. Why don't you step back and take a good hard look at OWS, it's leadership (yes, there are leaders), and their true motives. Be objective. I'm sure you know the difference between right and wrong. If you really want to fix our great country, there are much better groups for you to join.
It's too late for that. OWS is forever tarnished now. There will soon come a time where many of the OWS protesters will be too ashamed to admit they were ever part of it. Just like may Obama voters are beginning to do.
Who do you think many of these people are? They're the Obama voters who aren't ashamed of it, because they are shameless! Acorn (or whatever they're called these days), SEIU, AFL-CIO, Nat'l Lawyers Guild, and all the 60's leftover communist stalwarts have their prints all over this thing just like they're on Obama.
You are correct for the most part, but I think some of these people just want to be a part of something.....anything. I just hope some of them wise up and get away from this OWS disaster.
Ok, let's see if I can calmly lay this out.
@gforz - Thanks for explaining to to me calmly, my brain shuts down when people start yelling and using excessive exclamation marks :)
Have you ever hard the joke about the Brain and the A-hole? I'll paste it quickly.
"When the body was first created, all the parts wanted to be Boss. The brain said, "I should be Boss because I control all of the body's responses and functions."
The feet said, "We should be Boss since we carry the brain about and get him to where he wants to go."
The hands said, "We should be the Boss because we do all the work and earn all the money."
Finally, the asshole spoke up. All the parts laughed at the idea of the asshole being the Boss. So, the asshole went on strike, blocked itself up and refused to work.
Within a short time, the eyes became crossed, the hands clenched, the feet twitched, the heart and lungs began to panic, and the brain fevered. Eventually, they all decided that the asshole should be the Boss, so the motion was passed. All the other parts did all the work while the Boss just sat and passed out the shit!"
It is a joke, but it has hidden truths, the guy in the ditches, digging up the new sewage network is just as important for the community as the CEO leading a stockholder meeting. The symbiosis is there, and there is no denying it, only problem I have with the current system is the huge gap between the lower class workers and top management.
I fully agree with you that the run of the mill employee can't get exactly the same as the brains behind the operation, but I also can't believe that is necessary for the individual at the top to hoard more that he can use or spend in a lifetime. If the gap is smaller I promise you that there will be more equity and then you can truly start working towards a community based philosophy which will affect everyone positively, like Ubuntu.
If you want you can read the social commentary I wrote @ http://warlynx.wordpress.com/2011/08/22/the-spirit-of-ubuntu-and-its-relevance-in-todays-society/
Great analogy!
More justification that we should keep our mouths shut and be happy with what we got. How dare we protest.
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Because they watch the news and believe they are being educated. They can't tell the difference between propaganda and real historical economics. They think people like Glenn Beck and Peter Schiff are historians.
Because 80% of Americans have 401 K's and stock investments, idiot... and they don't want to lose their MONEY. The fact is your 99% movement is actually a 1% movement. The rest of the people are either too scared, too brainwashed, too affluent, too comfortable, too stupid, too lazy, too fat, too well-employed, too scared of being fired from their wage slave 'jobs', too ignorant... or ALL OF THE ABOVE PUT TOGETHER. Which is why your movement will only grow to the relative degree that the 1% rob and oppress the 99% suckers. Which will either result in civil war, riots, class warfare or total chaos.
And there you've hit something. The 99 movement isn't 99 at all. The majority of the real 99 all have reasons NOT to feel the way you do, and from their position they are fully justified.
No they are not justified: as I explained you you and you agreed: they are too fucking STUPID to realize that THEY WILL BE NEXT and their home will be taken from them ALSO, and they will lose their privileges and high paying jobs ALSO: until ALL of the American middle class have been put out on the streets and the billionaires can feel GOOD at how the capitalist system works ONLY FOR THEM. The American masses are the most stupid bunch of lazy spoiled arrogant smug selfish pricks in the world: especially the American middle class. They refuse to help anyone: they even refuse to help themselves! If it turns out that by helping themselves they might be helping SOMEBODY ELSE??? Horrors! Can't to THAT to their religion of selfish GREED. That is why the American Middle Class will go DOWN and DOWN until there ARE no middle class Americans anymore... they are just as fucking STUPID as you are.
No, I didn't "agree" with you. I said "you've hit on something". That something was your second sentence where you said the 99% movement is actually a 1% movement. And wow, Prozac much. Evidently not. Just because you are foaming at the mouth with your assertions doesn't make them true. You obviously aren't in the position I am in. I'm not going anywhere but up and I'm not the 1%. I'm doing it by working hard. I went from a business I owned and made about $100k a year to walking away from it and into a Corp job doing the same thing for $200k a year. Now I'm promoted and making $350k+ a year but NONE of it is salary. It's all production. I make 100% of my wages based off how hard I work. We should all be paid that way.
You are one of the 1% Interesting how our guilt sends you here to confess your crimes in public: eh? Screaming out your guilt at the top of your lungs on the OW movement forum
Yes. I'm guilty of what? Working hard? Oh and I'm not one of the 1%. I don't have the assets. Check your own movements facts before you try o call someone out.
Youdon't work at a fucking thing. You produce NOTHING. You contribute ZERO to your society: you are a bottom feeder a lover of MONEY and the ENEMY OF THE OW MOVEMENT: you have been classed, tagged and LABELED: now you can leave because they KNOW WHO AND WHAT YOU ARE; a capitalist PIG. OINK OINK OINK
You have no idea who I am or what I do for a living. I am a dentist. One that sees only the underprivileged children of our nation. Day in and day out I see the patients no one else wants to see. I do it well and I do it quickly and it's smiles all around. You are an ignorant fool and a detriment to OWS.
you're a fucking RACKETEER: living off the POVERTY of poor people: you;re a class SNOB: you're a capitalist PIG OINK OINK OINK: in it for the SCAM the SWINDLE. Pigs like you are the worst of the breed: pretending you're doing something when you're only making MONEY off poor people and swindling the people you pay you. You should be paid 10dollars a fucking hour: once you JOIN the ranks of other decent people THEN you will lose your money snobbery FAST. I was right: you don't contribute ANYTHING but tooth decay to your society. You want to fix teeth for FREE: then I'll give you credit for a contribution. When poor people can't afford to go to dentists because they've priced themselves out of the market for tooth decay and only allow rich RICH people to come to them: they're no fucking different from the RACKETEERS called car dealers who sell Rolls Royces to the rich ONLY and fuck the poor. Your whole profession is a fucking RACKET just like the rackets that are run in Wall Street. All upper class professions are RACKETS just like the oil RACKET where oil billionaires get the marines to do their dirty work for them.
You are obviously an anti-troll. An OWS troll. I won't berate you here like you need to be. But I do have to call you a dumb ass at least once. Dumb ass. These people don't pay me a penny. One of your entitlement programs does. You are seriously deranged.
EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY
you fucking stink filled hypocrite: the 'ENTITLEMENT" program! without all that MONEY rolling into your bank account you wouldn't raise one fucking finger to help ANYONE who is poorer than you are. I TOLD yo u you're a RACKETEER. and I was right. Your ENTITLEMENT program is the RACKET. It's the 'special deal' you have so you can make lots of MONEY treating poor people. It's the SWINDLE. Why don't you just give all that entitlement money tp education programs so children will not eat any products that have sugar in them? That way you can do yourself out of lots of MONEY MONEY MONEY. Without ignorant fat spoiled children guzzling soft drinks filled with refined corn syrup and getting DIABETES: you wouldn't have a fucking JOB. You want to 'contribute' something: get rid of the sugar lobby in Washington and get rid of all products that have processed sugar in them. You are a screaming guilty rich capitalist PIG OINK OINK OINK
Lol.
as usual: you have NO DEFENSE AGAINST THE TRUTH: you can't argue or protest or rationalize yourself out of what I accuse you of because what I said of you is TRUE: you just committed PERJURY: you ratted on yourself by SHUTTING UP AND RUNNING AWAY AND HIDING from the TRUTH
Riiiight. No, I refuse to have a war of the minds with an apparently unarmed individual. All you are in this for is an equally foul response and you're not going to get it here.
Wrong: you are an foul little piece of filth aren't you... ALL you need to do to prove me wrong is be honest. Speaking the truth is not war. Only to liars who hide what they are and cowards who run away from the truth is truth perceived to be a war. You've been exposed. You lost the game, asshole: now get lost.
People have been saying that in America for two hundred years, and our middle class now is better off than its ever been in terms of standard of living and discretionary income. Things are going up, not down, notwithstanding a bit of a downtick in the overall picture right now.
Correction: You've just proved to everyone who reads your post how uneducated and ignorant and brainwashed you are. The American middle class has been losing its earning power ever since the 1950's. After WW2: the average American middlle class family could support itself by only ONE bread winner working to support his family with the mother staying home. They were able to buy a house, a car, raise a family on only ONE paycheck. Now it takes TWO paychecks to do this, and most American middle class couples can't afford to buy a house for years. The fact is if you ever study the demographics of earning power and prices: you will see that your middle class has been systematically nickle-and-dimed to death by rising prices, lowering quality and inflation, losing industry, losing jobs, shrinking and shrinking. Soon you will all disappear.
Goodbye.
Sorry, but you're the one who's uneducated and ignorant. I offer my own case as an example:
My wife and I are a single-income family, making roughly an average income for our part of the Midwest (less than average household income since we only have one income total).
We have a house (paid for), two cell phones (one being a smartphone with data plan), two laptops, broadband Internet, a good vehicle, and we travel at least once per year. We eat well at home and dine out at least several times per month.
All this on no mortgage, no credit card debt, no payday loans, no debt of any kind. And, as I said, a single, average wage, unsupplemented by financial assistance of any kind.
It can be done, and very nicely, if you have discipline and know how to spend less than you make.
your personal example is total BULLSHIT
The American middle class has been losing its earning power ever since the 1950's
I can live on pennies a day if I choose to do so: that has NOTHING to do with the historical FACTS of prices. A car used to cost under 2,000 dollars: not they cost up to 40,000 A cup of coffee used to cost 3 cents now a latte costs FIVE DOLLARS
A hamburger used to cost less than 25 cents: now they cost over THREE DOLLARS
Meanwhile... the WAGES of the middle class have NOT RISEN ALONG WITH THE RISING PRICES
Did you go to school at all? Or are you another fucking PAID liar who refuses to admit the mathematical FACTS?
You are the lowest selfish scum of the earth you and all other LOVERS OF MONEY Your kind need to be wiped OUT.
My personal example is the truth. I can't prove it and don't need to; you can do the math for yourself if you care to.
Regarding your examples, a car cost $2000 and a hamburger cost 25 cents at a time when a man made $45 per week. That makes for a yearly income of about $2300. For the same geographic area now, an average wage is about $45,000 per year and cars cost about $35,000 new. Back then, the car was 87% of a year's income. These days it's about 78%. That makes us better off these days than the times you're talking about (at least in relation to automobiles).
Like I said, you do the math.
Your anecdotal evidence is just that: an amusing anecdote
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You just proved to everyone who wants to read your post how fucking stupid you are. Goodbye.
See my post above. An average, single-income family in the 50's did not have the buying power that my wife and I have on our average single income.
You just PROVED I am right. IN the 1950's a middle class family did not need TWO people to work: they only needed ONE
Your earning power of ONE person today compared to the earning power of ONE person in the 1950's is LOWER
Trying to compare TWO people working today, to ONE person working in the 1950's proves you are a fucking IMBECILE IDIOT who cannot do math.
Did you even read my post? Ours is a single-income family, making an average, single wage and living better than our grandparents who made an average, single wage in the 1950's.
I think you need some practice in reading comprehension, because all this was clearly in my previous reply.
or none of the above. History is a messy business. It never goes the way we think it will, and after it happens, nobody agrees on exactly what happened. I used to have definite opinions about Vietnam until I read a book by somebody (Stanley Karnow) who was there from start to finish. It was a great read, and when I finished, I concluded that everything I had ever heard about Vietnam--pro, con, all of it--was as true as it was false.
you're a brainless jackass incapable of making a decision or coming to any conclusion or understanding information or digesting information or putting facts together. That isn't surprising at all. There are 6.8 BILLION people exactly like you who can't come to any conclusions either. And you are welcome to your own fucking stupidity.
Hey. The people with the 401 Ks and stock investments are the big losers. Number one, their investment are getting raided by the Bank Executives taking commissions and bonuses out of their profits. Number two, they are giving themselves millions of shares, so that the actual value of the stock in 401 Ks are being diluted all the time.
http://classicalcapital.com/Who_Robs_America_s_Young.html
Whoop dee fucking dooo: now go on national American television and tell 350 million Americans what you just told me. I already know that. They don't.
Idiot? Your movement?
Maybe you should get your facts together friend before you start distorting them.
Not my Movement, I am in South Africa and South African, I am asking a question ... do not assume that I would know everything, that is why I asked the question, so don't call me an idiot, because you are actually drawing attention to your idiotic comprehension and answer.
80% of Americans have 401K's and stock investments? If that is so, why do you have a financial crisis ... I thought it was because of everyone have huge debt.
401 k's are the only option for many employees. The only way they can receive any type of company match for their retirement fund is if they agree to invest in a company sponsored 401 k that provides very little flexibility.
Things have gotten better in the past few years but the average layman not versed in finance or investing is pretty much tied to these vehicles unless they want to forgo the company match portion and invest their money outside through private advisers.
Debt has a lot to do with it but the combination of speculation, derivatives, lack of innovation, rising inflation and low wages resulting in low demand are just as culpable.
Many Americans have 401k's and IRAs available to them but they are voluntary programs so the wise (hopefully the Federal Reserve's reigniting inflation will not make them foolish instead) ones saved and invested. I believe the average amount in 401k's are about $50000. Houses here cost more than $200000 on average and 401k's have tax penalties and taxes if they are withdrawn early so one may get perhaps $30000-$40000. That is not good enough to pay the mortgage on the houses. Besides many people bought their houses much more than $200000 before the housing crash. Many have huge debts but only a few really go broke. Here is the real reason why there was the financial crisis: the greedy bankers packaged, diced, used as collateral to borrow, leveraged greatly, sold the debt instruments around the world as Structured Investment Vehicles with the names of the "reputable" banks but without the SIVs showing up on their financial reports. When some of the debts went bad, the banks looked at each other and could feel the excrement stuck to their pants as bought and sold by everyone all around and THEY PANICKED. It is now next to impossible to unbundle the debts so we had jumped off the cliff with our hands tied and we are still falling and falling.
Hectic Grapes, sounds like nothing short of a total shut down and restart will help over there
Yes, I got these a few times already whenever I started writing something highly sensitive. Perhaps my computer is being "monitored" for national security reasons.
Hehehe, glad to see there is still humour left in that corner of the world :) I like rational approaches to these obstacles in our way. No point in throwing the baby out along with the tub water.
I've seen some of the other guys posts on how one can fix things, what are your thoughts, specifically pertaining to America of course?
We the people (I drink tea but not a Tea Party member yet - Boston harbor is too big a tea pot and will land me in the wrong place all day) in the U.S. need to lower the barriers of entry to various businesses and encourage young business formations, perhaps through total tax exemptions for the first three years. Top tax brackets should be increased - those to whom much was given, much is to be called for (to overcome the static friction). This will help calm down the bond market and hopefully lower interest rates on our national debt (about 14 trillion dollars). We need to cut expenditures as much as we can - no sacred cows allowed (cut those targeted tax expenditures written into laws through lobbyists) but efficiency improvements should be pursued without sacrificing our basic values. We will educate our youngs, take care of our olds, further our well-beings, and blaze a new trail for the world. Free trade was productive but there were always parties who sacrificed the interests of others for their narrow private gains so our government must stand guard as a tough referee. The tone set for businesses should be: we will help you as much as we can; we EXPECT you to do as well as you and we could together; we will make you crave time-travel to the past to reset wrongs if you did wrongs. Since corporations are by and large amoral, we the people will provide corporations with the conscience and the mind to do the righteous things. We will do it as your customers, shareholders, board directors, regulators, and employees. We will shelter whistle-blowers and publicize their stories after properly establishing your guilt. Your interest must be aligned more with the U.S. interest.
@Grapes - Now that is what I call constructive thinking! You don't maybe have a way to copy yourself and send me the copy?
With such a rational approach you can move mountains :) Thanks for sharing your alternative, it gives me hope!
You what? You didn't think: you've swallowed your South African propaganda media lies and you have not even begun to study the nature of modern capitalism and how the stock market works, and how stocks can go UP! UP! while the entire American Nation is going down DOWN. Once you study how the stock market works and how the American economy works and how global capitalism works, and how your own economy is tied to all the most rotten corrupt financial entities of the capitalist world and how you nation 's govt is totally corrupt and how your system was born out of the worst stinking capitalist greed and inhumanity, and how the entire capitalist system is concentration all wealth and power into the fewest hands possible... you will NO more questionsk.
What's that you say? You don't WANT to do all the necessary hard work of educating yourself about the world you live in? Then don't. Then just turn on the telly and believe whatever they tell you and shut up and go back to being a vegetable.
South African propaganda on OWS issues? Hahahaha! Please, as I said, get your facts in order before you start distorting them.
South African media are hardly covering the OWS movement, they don't really care about it, they care about weeding out the corrupt officials back home, so I am here out of my own to find out more about the challenges that OWS face, to see where it falters, and where it hits a high, these are all valuable lessons for our own version of OWS which I believe is already on the horizon.
Why re-invent the wheel? I can learn out of other people's endeavours.
On a totally unrelated topic, you seem like a very high strung individual and I think you should maybe see if you can get something to calm your nerves.
You're illiterate: learn to read. I said you South Africans mass media lies and gives you misinformation and disinformation. You are much to stupid to know what propaganda is and you are much to stupid to understand you're already been brainwashed and programmed You don't know the history of your own country. Learn to read first. Then grow up and get an education. idiots like you need to go back to school.
Er ... should I take this seriously? Someone who can hardly put together coherent sentences and resorts to mud slinging and name calling?
You should maybe learn to debate and/or discuss things in a civil way, maybe then people will take your opinions to heart, but as you are now you are effectively rendering all your "arguments" moot.
And, just as a closing note, I've lived through two regimes' worth of propaganda, I know the between mud and shit. This and the fact that I read news publications from all over the world on a daily basis and I piece together a common truth from all the one sided drivel they put out. This gives me a pretty good understanding of what is happening out in the world today, can you say the same?
Yes:L even better than you: FAR better than you. If you are serious about becoming an activist in South America then whatever you do do NOT copy the American occupy Wall Street movement. It is only as vehicle for social destabilization and the 1% will only use it to ram through more police state measure and beef up their armed forced and police and brutality. It will only lead to chaos, riots, mobs, class warfare, bloodshed and civil war... which iwas the eaxct same path your nation followed some years ago and what good has it done you? NOTHING. IN fact its made things even worse.
The only intelligent answer for activists all over the world is to fight global capitalism INTELLIGENTLY. This means you must organize yourself at the grass-roots level and opt out of the entire capitalist system 100% and become self-sufficient communities that have no leaders and do not use money. THIS way: you give the reactionary top ruling elite NO REASON to attack you or see you as a threat to their power and wealth: Plus you will be FREE of all the corruption you are living in now.
Self-sufficiency is the ONLY answer to the globalist profiteers. Not using money makes you invulnerable to all the world's coming financial disasters and chaos.
ALSO....... if IF... more people do as I am doing: creating a small self-sufficient community without leaders and not using money... then the ENGINE that drive global capitalism can be stopped in its tracks, and that is the CONSUMER: the 99% of people who but things in order to make the 1% richer. What you need to understand is that before you can change the world for the the better: you must change YOURSELF for the better FIRST. Once you discipline yourself and are not addicted to drinking and eating toxic drugs like coffee, tea, soft drinks, and eating processed foods and spices: you will become a healthy human being who is not addicted to SELF-GRATIFICATION: you will no longer watch TV or use the Internet for any distractive purposes whatsoever. THEN... once you as a group clean yourselves of the shit you've been sold: you can create a community that doesn't buy and doesn't WANT what they are trying to SELL TO YOU.
Understand this: the greatest evil on earth isn't the corporations or the banks. It's the 6.8 BILLION insane apes who FEED the monster with their addictions and greed and selfishness. Pointing at the top of civilization and blaming it for your owes is stupid. If you don't like it: get OUT of it period. The basic problem is CENTRALIZATION. The answer to the problem is DE-centralization. Small communities that are self-sufficient is the only answer.
@Turak
Great, thanks for the reply, for the first time you made sense. Not South America, but Africa, but that's ok, I understand what you are getting at.
I agree with you on not giving the 1% and the State the opportunity to beef up it's armed forces and to clamp down the liberties of "normal" people. Things can, and will most definitely spiral out of control after such steps were taken.
I like your idea about the self sufficient communities, but the problem I foresee in that is where do you get the land? Not all land are equally workable, nor will they yield the same amount of crops, or sustain the same amount of life-stock. Plus your neighbour who likes your piece of land must just try and grab it in a hostile raid, the human greed factor always come into play, since the reality is that we won't be able to produce or cultivate everything we need in certain places.
You are right about the consumer part though, and we are the fuel that gives power to this Capitalistic egocentric world view which most humans have. That is a big problem.
As I said, I like your idea, but back to basics will not really work for us, there is already to many of us on the planet, and it will inevitably lead back to this road of self annihilation which we are one.
Instead of a bunch of small communities functioning independently I am opting for a single large community, but which operates around the maxims of Ubuntu. In this way I see us getting past the greed and the corruption which plagues us, and working towards a common goal, Survival of the Species, because we are hurtling towards big catastrophe on the road we are now. We need to get over the pity "inter community" squabbles about our finite resources and start working on a way around it.
Imagine for one second that the all the countries had no need to wage war against each other, imagine then what the money, which was funding the war machine, could be used for and all the good it can do, like researching and developing new technology which would lets us terraform deserts here on earth and make them suitable for human habitation, and going ever further, working towards colonies in space.
Guess what I am trying to say, and what everything boils down to for me is the following - Money is not the root of all evil, it is the greed for money that is.
"Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed.--Mahatma Gandhi"
Wrong. You are an armchair idealist with no practical understanding of people and how civilization works. All human society runs on small group cooperating with each other. If fact the larger the number the dumber the group. That is why mobs are the dumbest form of human activity. Humans are not designed to socialize or interact as a mass of billions. We are not sardines or bacteria. As the dominant killer species on earth, we were originally designed to exterminate other obsolete top predators until we became too successful. Humans were designed to roam the entire earth in search of challenges to their courage and ingenuity: not multiply like a virusi packing themselves into cities ignoring everything around them and each others existence. You're a hopeless lost cause. You'll never get off your ass and when you do it will be because you were forced and what you do will be the STUPIDEST possible thing possible.
I quote you - "not multiply like a virusi packing themselves into cities ignoring everything around them and each others existence."
But this is exactly what you want to do then? What is a city if not a community?
Any case, I need to head to work, I like your ideas and I believe you are on the right route, but a tad too militaristic
Wrong: I want the human species to de-centralize itself as much as possible and leave the cities EMPTY and raze all cities to the ground. The easiest way to do this is create small self-sufficient communities that don't use money.
By self-sufficient communities; I mean communities made up of: 12, 24, or 36 individuals. Not more, not less. Not 11 or 9 or 23 or 42 people. The first magic number of mathematical harmony was so powerful it began the Christian movement of voluntary poverty. Since then, the only group pof people who have been allowed to function as a community of 12 peole has been in the LEGEND and FICTION and FANTASY of King Arthur and his 12 knights of the round table.
Football teams are penalized fro having 12 men on the field at any given time. There is a very deep hidden reason why for over 10,000 years... only one group of TWELVE people ever successfully assembled together and lived as a community. Only one. And that community was broken and fell apart because it was a group of 13 people: not 12. It was broken and fell apart because it had a leader.
Now... 2,000 years later: a few super-enlightened people in Liberty Square have figured out that the only way to have a successful grass roots community is by having NO leaders. This level of enlightenment does NOT include you.