Forum Post: Question to the Occupation: Does anyone invest?
Posted 9 years ago on June 16, 2014, 3:28 a.m. EST by jaktober
(286)
from Sonoma, CA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Does anyone on this forum invest? I'm curious if so, and how. What types of stocks do you buy? Do you own property? Do you save?
Do you budget?
Do you donate?
yes - all of the above. lots of older working people on this site. people who have to make their own retirement since our government busted pensions - and yes that would be both parties did it! we own homes and businesses and stocks - why would that matter?
What type of stocks do you own? I've started investing, and plan to build my dividend portfolio quite a bit while I am making money. However, to be effective investing you need to invest in companies, that from an Occupy stand-point, are "the enemy."
For instance, I invested in the largest iron mining company in the world. They pay out a good dividend, good history of return. Now, there are a lot of problems with mining. I donate to Greenpeace for instance, and they aren't fond of this company. However, who amongst us does not buy iron? It is an intrinsict material used in our civilization. So, is there a moral, or ethical, difference between be a consumer of a troubled industry vs. being an investor?
As an investor, in say, a large natural-gas company (again, a product/industry we might oppose but that we all use on a regular basis), would I really be investing in an "energy company" which then, as a shareholder, I could encourage to move into, say, Geothermal? Or some other long term "green" energy product. In the mean time, I'm also recieving a large dividend back, which I could then invest in companies that may not give the biggest return, but are providing a benificial product to society (such as medical 3d printing services)?
Or is it even more simple than that; here is the reality we live in, energy is moved around, decide how much energy you recieve, and what you use it for.
That is my answer to "why would that matter"?
Well we all have to survive somehow
[Deleted]
I do not invest in the system for which I stand against ...no stocks mutual funds or 401k here...what means of production? The ones in China? The ones in India? The one you rent out as you sit on your ass each month and collect on ? There is nothing left in America anymore but a void of repetitious monotony, stagnant ideas, and cheap useless crap built and crafted out of the lowest quality shit benefiting the largest assholes among us those squeaky loudmouth bullies with no apparent value to society other than to drive up our cost of living on the earth and to bring out the suck ...America home of the suck and land of the followers
ok, so how old are you? do you plan to retire some day or will you die young? do you own a house or car - do you buy water in bottles made by coke or pepsi - do you have a job. we are all part of the system - unless you live in the woods and hunt and forage. oh, but you have a computer and are here so.......you are certainly correct about the many things in this country that are really fucked up. there is also still much freedom here. i have always worked for myself - started businesses and saved a modest amount of money - yes ira, cd, stocks - 64 years old. what i have done would have been difficult in europe - much less free. there are aspects of our system that we should keep.
Almost 40 and I have grown up in an entirely different economy than you...Nafta was passed and expanded right before I graduated high school I was laid off 3 times in my twenties due to corporate downsizing btw they froze wages before 911 and used it as an excuse this is also when boomers began flipping housing and jacking up rents to unheard of highs...after rent there was nothing left to save or stash away for college or anything I walked to work for 5 years and didn't get a car until 27 and I'm still driving that car today... its all been a blur and a struggle that won't end happily for my generation we put off having kids, we help out our parents, we work 2 jobs...and we will get nothing unless we finally take a stand for our dignity and right to as good a life as the generations before us...we don't want much...but you never started in an economy where the cost of living to wages was this high do some research on stagflation and cost of living
no need to do any research on stagflation - i lived through it and did well during it - as did many. you are correct that it was a time when working people could make a living and save money. my daughter is 37 and faces similar problems to what you speak of. the median wage for men is lower now than 40 years ago - this is the main problem facing the country. what kicked up may answer was this statement from you -"I do not invest in the system for which I stand against ...no stocks mutual funds or 401k here..'- the implication was that you chose not to invest in the "system" not that you were not able to invest in the system. i think this is a terrible situation and needs to be fixed - it is a result of what our politicians did - both parties and it can be fixed easily if we force those in power to "do the right thing"
Dad? Is that you?....Oh jeez ...haha nothing is sacred anymore
Sacred??
Well said - now - again? - and add some HEAT. {:-])
Means of production=my farm which I have been told by folks on here would be seized and become collective property should they succeed in their revolution.
Your misinformed, fearful and self absorbed paranoia is such ignorant hogwash ! You aren't really here for The 99% are you ?!! You are just the kind of - heavily propagandised, anti-compassion, anti-reason, reactionary, 'ruling elite lickspittle' ... that the 0.01% Parasite Class and their 1% lackeys really love !!!
Please get a clue about the state of affairs in the U$A, from a couple of people you may of heard of :
http://truth-out.org/news/item/24395-wall-streets-secret-weapon-congress by Bill Moyers & ....
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/24403-health-care-lets-have-people-over-profits-once-and-for-all
STOP being so frightened ! No one wants your farm !! Other than The Banksters & The Corporations !!!
ad iudicium ...
He is at least seeking to understand us...and has an interest in what's going on so quick to attack focus more on reaching common ground we have more than you think a lot of people are frustrated no one is listening to them they have only been receiving messages from the one percent I rather think that reading our posts and understanding we are on the side of the worker not entitlement..they may experience an awakening and it may be the first time they receive the message of the 99 and lift the corporate veil
''My thoughts exactly, everyone hates socialism, but when you talk to them they all support many socialist doctrines. The word itself is vilified'', was a comment that he made to bw, so you are right elf, he is a seeker too but as he keeps giving in to his pre-programmed prejudices, so we'll keep trying to share reasons for hope and unity in The 99% struggle against our Parasitic Overlords ...
''McCutcheon took us back in time, but it might just birth the next Occupy'', by Robert B. Reich : http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/06/mccutcheon-conservative-supreme-court-next-occupy &
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/23423-the-working-class-mini-revolts-of-the-twenty-first-century .
dum spiro, spero ...
You are one person, you keep saying this. For every one of you here, there are two or three that have clearly stated that my farm would be one of the first things taken over. Do I speak for 99% of the population, no i do not. I do express the concerns of thousands of small farmers and ranchers across America who wonder if this movement represents them or if it is a sham set up to gain their support while it is needed, then turn on them in the end. TEA party was crucified by the the media for the presence of a handful of Nazi's at their events, it not unprecedented that Occupy might also be judged by the presence of a few communists.
Are you seriously equating Nazis to any ''communists'' ?! Please don't keep confusing ''Bolshevism & Totalitarian Stalinism'' - and decades of 1% Propaganda .. with 'socialism' or even 'communists' !! It is ALL about DEMOCRACY rather than the reality of demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy that we have now !!!
''Left-Right Alliances Can Make Major Changes for the People'', by Ralph Nader : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ralph-nader/left-right-alliances_b_5229181.html ;
''Greed, Excess and America's Gaping Class Divide'', by Matt Taibbi : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28582.htm ;
''What the 1% Don't Want You to Know'', by Bill Moyers & Paul Krugman : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzQYA9Qjsi0 [24m30s & truly a 'must watch' video] ;
"Wealth Inequality In America" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM [6:24] ;
''Obscenities of Capitalism'', by Paul Buchheit : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35553.htm &
''Oligarchy USA'', by Karen Garcia : http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/23230-oligarchy-usa .
veritas vos liberabit ...
Yes I want democracy not economic dictatorship.
Many say workplace democracy. But how would a business get started? Unless a government backed loan to the worker owners. I'm sure your farm is safe.
You had bought or inherited farm. My grandparents had farm, came from line of immigrant farmers, whose farm still owned cousins. Farmers are not rich, the land owns them, the cows too,
These discussions to improve the economy by worker ownership,
I can only see dual track, some private, some communal owned, and only by free choice or as an option.
I would say personal ownership would be a right, it is in constitution, right to property.
I'm not sure that I am for democracy either. Were you aware that Arkansas recently voted by overwhelming majority to ban gay marriage? One could say that the constitution would not permit that, and it has been taken to court for that reason. But under a pure democracy would the same people that voted to ban gay marriage not also be able to vote to amend the constitution to prohibit it? Just my thoughts on democracy, it sorta leaves out minority rights, unless the majority is feeling compassionate.
I do see the same issues as you with work place democracy. How to raise the money to start the business. If it is through loans, then are they tied to the business or the people starting the business? If some of the original workers leave does their ownership leave with them? Or their share of the start up dept? If people invest the money to start a business are new employees treated the same as the principles in the business? I see it getting complicated, when someone has invested not only their money, but 10 or 15 years of their lives to starting an employee owned business.
My farm is a bit of a different case. For all practical purposes I bought it. The farm had been in my family for nearly 200 years, when my father died, my mother turned to drugs, and amassed a ridiculous dept against the farm. Before it was foreclosed I purchased it from my mother, with the bank president there. He actually accepted the check. The farm was in horrible shape, and I am only now managing to turn a profit. My wife and I both still have to work off farm jobs to make ends meet.
I have no problem with dual track, it is confiscation that I have a problem with.
Your farm is going to be annexed to build a WalMart or for ethanol production...and that is if climate change doesn't destroy that water table...the rest aside Monsanto will be suing you for patent infringement after they contaminate your field with their gmo seed...http://www.thefutureoffood.com we are trying to save family farms and corporate america is going to cause an economic meltdown not us we are trying to save us from their psychopathic lack of planning and quarterly ways before we all end up in their pit of chaos...ant and grasshopper...Occupy are the ants
I want to believe you, that is why I am taking the time to post here. But you are not the only one posting. If you follow the socialist/communist posts on here it seems that most people agree with them. I don't want to go from one oppressive system to another. I do not believe in forced collective ownership. Even to dealing with mega-corporations, I think that we have to be very careful to deal with them in a way that can't be turned around and used against the small business or farm owners. It is possible that you may not know who is really behind Occupy. It is an answer that we all really need to know. It goes to trust.
Nothing is perfect and there all walks of posters...the majority of what I see on here and I've been on and off if here for years... is to save family farms and demonopolize corporate takeover of food production and their partnership with gov agencies that allow them to make the rules.. we hate that ...who else is standing up for the small farmer?
Exactly, and that is the reason that I am so frustrated with this forum, and with the situation at large. I feel that I am being given a choice between free trade and corporate oligarchy on the one hand, and communism on the other.
I get it you don't want to be regulated...I see wall street regulating small business while government is giving mega corps free reign ...regulation comes down to common sense...balance ...your ability to swing your fists should end at my nose or collective noses
Prior to taking a swing at my nose or collective noses?
Suicide and the Great Recession of 2008:
"A new study has found that suicide rates increased in North America and Europe during the recent economic recession, resulting in at least 10,000 additional deaths between 2008 and 2010."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/13/suicide-recession_n_5491687.html
Right, people love being poor. They love having zero opportunity. They're just a bunch of lazy bums. That's sarcasm just in case you can't figure that out.
Piketty has it right: "Occupy was right: capitalism has failed the world"
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/apr/13/occupy-right-capitalism-failed-world-french-economist-thomas-piketty
And communism is the answer? Lying and deceiving people into joining your fold then waving a communist flag over their heads. Threatening to drug conservatives and brain wash them into your way of thinking? Those are all from posts on this site. Yes, unregulated capitalism has failed, so has communism, so come up with some new ism to shove down peoples throats. Because I have something for your communist manifesto, please start your revolution soon.
Just can't stand it, can you? Sharing. Didn't learn that in kindergarten did you?
Working my ass off so some lazy bastard can have a free ride. I'm doing that now. I can only imagine what I'd be doing if you people take over. Fortunately there is zero chance of that happening.
The only ones getting a free ride in this country are the greedy stockholders who don't know what it means to "work" for a living, and their buddy CEO's and overpaid management.
Every single American is working their asses off to support those assholes.
Yep - and they have very feeble BS to spew in defense of their practices:
https://occupywallst.org/forum/what-if-putting-a-reign-on-pandering-to-money/#comment-1035715
"Report: Walmart Workers Cost Taxpayers $6.2 Billion In Public Assistance"
http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/
And, from the article "In October, two studies released to coincide showed that American fast food industry outsourced a combined $7 billion in annual labor costs to taxpayers. McDonald's MCD +0.08% alone accounted for $1.2 billion of that outlay.
Yum Brands came in at a distant number two, with its Pizza Hut, Taco Bell and KFC subsidiaries costing $648 million in benefits programs for workers each year."
{ EDIT } Yay for the outstanding increase in minimum wage ( public support of workers required ) jobs since the economic meltdown - wooHOO - something like 75% of all jobs created ( um replacements for prior lost jobs which many more of which were high paying ) have been minimum wage ( public support of workers required ) - WOOHOO what an economic turnaround from the devastating recession.
With this kind of growth - soon - everyone will be on Public Assistance - wooooooHOOOOOOOOO - no more social awkwardness or stigmata about requiring aid - YeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaw
Wait a mo - if no one can afford to live by their own means - um - how will public aid be supported - ??? - OH - yeah - finally get around to taxing the wealthy - HUH - long way round to get there - Oh well it's all good - Right?
wooooooHOOOOOOOOO & YeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaw we're cooking with gas NOW!!!
EDIT -> Incredibly most of these low wage - um sorry - "minimum wage" jobs have been created in the junk food - um so sorry again - "fast food" industry. So weird that the new work force would need public assistance to afford to eat at where they work - or will they - anyone see an expansion of the dollar menu coming?
Very long way round. Insane way round. How about people wake up and start demanding fair pay. How about a living wage for all people and put an end to entitlement programs for the wealthy.
Well now - hoooooold on thar little missy - ain't that thar kinda seditious like type of talk? Wharrrrs Home Land Security - HEY DHS this lil lady is talking sense.............?!?....scuse....treasonously..
You know, many times when I talk to friends and family about how we need to demand a living wage, or even just a meager increase to the minimum wage, I actually get rolled eyes! The brainwashing job was very thorough.
It is a very sad thing to see - brainwashing so thorough - that those who would benefit from others doing better for themselves - would react negatively to the mention of it.
Changing the ethos of this nation will not be easy but it is the most worthy of causes.
I have had a somewhat better experience - I used to be the only one to bring up such issues at a get together - and now I find that others are bringing up issues as well.
You fail to see that their are three divisions with in America. There are the idle rich, the drones who live off the system, the middle who produce, but have their production stripped from them, and the under class, some of whom truly want to advance, others who are very happy to manipulate the system and get a free ride. I see them doing it, so don't try and deny it. They live better than I do, in government housing and food stamps, and disabled social security for the 7 or 8 kids they have. I knew a young woman once, who didn't drink until she got pregnant, I ask her about it, she said that by drinking she hoped for a birth defect so she could get a government check off the baby. I reported her, and was told that they had no way of proving it, so their was nothing they could do.
You reported her. LOL. What a great guy!
I think you'd find that most people here would be happy with an economic system where everyone has enough, not necessarily where everyone is equal. Who really cares how wealthy anyone is so long as everyone can live a decent life without being a debt slave or a charity case? The problem today is that all of the wealth is hoarded at the top while the masses suffer.
And, in the 21st century work is over-rated. The economy could very likely support us all working part time. The protestant work ethic is a thing of the past. Shocking innit? Time to wake up to the technological change, social change and economic change that has happened in the last few decades to create a system that works for all people.
''Rich People ; Pay Rich People ; To Tell Middle Class People ; To Blame Poor People !!!''
PLEASE Stop Continuously Falling For This Shit !!! Perhaps you only really wanted to believe that 'pregnancy drinker' so you could report her !! Your right, privilege and karma but now, do move on !
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/24372-doing-for-the-poor-and-doing-to-the-poor by Dean Baker
''Some Outrageous Facts about US Inequality", by Paul Buchheit : http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/07/02-0 & ...
''Heist - Who Stole The American Dream'' : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltNaDDQZ07k
"How Unchecked Capitalism Has Brought the World to the Brink of Apocalypse -- and What We Must Do Now'', by Robert Jensen : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35503.htm &
"The Economy Unites Us : What’s wrong with the economy and how we can fix it", by Margaret Flowers and Kevin Zeese : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34549.htm .
e tenebris, lux ?
You are crazy or blind if you do not realize that the system is being abused on both ends. I see that you chose to ignore the fact that I first mentioned the rich as drones living off society. I see both ends, you can only see one.
Do you really ''see both ends'' ?! Are you really and honestly equating ''both ends'' ?!! Are the indigent and desperate equally to blame with eg. the likes of John Corzine, Bernie Madoff and other Corporate Bankster Parasites, both as normal individual human persons & the 'legally people' - Corporations ?!!!
Although there is no indication that you engage with any of the links I append, nevertheless I'll continue :
http://www.popularresistance.org/ ;
http://www.storyofstuff.org/movies-all/story-of-broke/ ;
''Walmart's Top-to-Bottom Taxpayer Subsidies'', by Frank Clemente and Sarah Anderson : http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/24203-walmarts-top-to-bottom-taxpayer-subsidies ;
''From Endless Growth To A New Form Of Democracy'' : http://crisisofcivilization.com/from-endless-growth-to-a-new-model-of-democracy-nafeez-mosadeqq-ahmed-at-tedxhornstull/ & ...
"America's Duopoly of Money in Politics and Manipulation of Public Opinion", by Charles Ferguson (Dir. 'Inside Job') : http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/america-duopoly-money-politics .
I can ''see both sides'' ! I see that they are NOT the same !! So, I'm NOT confused about who to blame !!!
ad iudicium ...
[ EDIT x 3 + close ] Very few of the middle class actually produce any sort of product - they hire the lower class to produce if that is their business - then they offer/provide that product to the marketplace - but very few produce ( actually take part in the work of production ).
EDIT -> BTW - those of the middle class who actually take part in the actual work of production? That would be The lions share of them in the Lower Middle Class - and if they are successful? - most of those will transition into the middle middle class and out of doing the actual production work. By FAR the people who produce are lower class working for the middle class and the Rich.
2) -> BTW - from what you have said - I would take it that you are yourself = lower middle class and your farm does not provide enough for you to live on it's income alone ( stated you work jobs off of the farm to make ends meet ). Being barely ( apparently ) lower middle class and having to work more jobs than just on your farm to make ends meet - I will hazard a guess that you take advantage of all available government programs for your farm. What would happen to your farm if you didn't take advantage of government programs? Would you lose it? You do realize that those programs are socialist in nature? So - you don't believe in socialism - but - do ( willingly ) profit by it?
3) -> So without socialist government programs available to farmers. Would you be property-less? If the programs are keeping you on the farm - would you be part of the working poor ( lower class ) without them?
CLOSE -> Edit's 1 2 & 3 are to point out to you that socialist programs "are" needed by many - just to get by - yourself included to keep your present lifestyle. This should not be necessary - for the working individual to get by. But is necessary for a growing number due to the inequality that is rampant in our current society. So hop off your high horse and stop blaming the poor for being poor - Blame the Source of poverty = Greed - greed at the very pinnacle of society. Social Security should only be needed by the elderly retired and the disabled who in this system were not allowed to provide for their future.
Actually no, I would not lose my farm. I own my farm outright, at least as much as you can in America. I don't owe the bank on it, just yearly property tax. The only government programs that I participate in are extension service consulting on pesticide licensing, and soil testing. I get no subsidies of any kind. I do sell at farmers market, but at least the one I sell at is put on by a private group of which I am a member. So no government programs to speak of. I need the license because the government requires it, and charge me for the class and the license. Soil testing is free, and I suppose is a socialist program. I could live without it, but it is convenient to know what fertilizer to use without having to guess.
So - you receive absolutely no money from the government - none? But do take advantage of free services - btw free is not free as someone is paying for it. How rare are you? An actual INDEPENDENT farmer. Huh - a dying breed.
No drought money? No fallow field Money? No plant certain crops money? Nothing? wow - that is so rare.
It took 10 years start turning a profit. No loans, no grants, and until this year no free services. I still use a Bayer crop Sciences rep rather calling the extension service for insect or weed problems. Our local extension service is more geared toward livestock than produce. I figure that I am paying for the Bayer guys advice when I buy the product is is representing.
Look into your Bayer products = killing the environment.
So no tax credits - no nothing - huh - so very very rare. You don't farm in a drought affected area? Or do you carry your own crop failure insurance?
Absolutely no state or federal aid/program? No special loan programs no nothing.
Wow - you should go on an educational speaking tour = Doing it yourself and being profitable without state or federal aid/programs.
Although Wickerman and I don't seem to agree on much, I do feel that independent farmers in particular are worth subsidizing. Not to make them rich but to make damn sure they turn a decent profit for their contribution to society. Independent farmers in particular. Nothing for the corporate juggernauts until after they take some losses. After all, they have put many smaller operations out of business
One problem is that we are willing to pay $15.99 for an electronically reproduced and transmitted digital likeness of a diva with a big ass and a bigger ego but we are only willing to pay $20-$50 for an entire bushel of apples. The profit margin on the digital download is out of this fxxxxxx world and the profit margin on the life sustaining product is downright minuscule by comparison.
When it's all said and done, the stuck-up diva gets even more filthy disgusting rich with each and every electronically reproduced likeness while the independent farmers of America, those who don't go under, bust their sorry asses for five or maybe in some rare cases, six figures annually.
Every time I give these issues any real thought, my blood boils. It's a damn good thing for the rich that we remain a stupid society of consumer junkie morons. Because if the masses were to wake up one day and realize just how much pain, misery, and injustice has been endured over the years in the name of greed, that is, the very concept of extreme personal wealth and the resulting concentration, the rich would literally have to run for their very lives.
By the way, I'd be willing to bet that Beyonce of all people has benefited from some sort of government subsidy or huge tax break. Not to mention the well publicized and very cozy relationship with the Obamas. Ch'Ching!
I'll look it up.
Update: Gee what a shock:
http://www.businessinsider.com/beyonce-knowles-gets-425000-taxpayer-bailout-on-her-house-in-texas-2010-4
More detail:
http://m.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2010/04/beyonc%C3%A9s-beach-house-brouhaha
Good one, no we don't agree on much, but you nailed it on that one.
I don't have a problem with subsidizing the small farmer. I was only having this conversation as wicker seems to look down his nose at those who are in less fortunate than he finds his circumstances to be and his whole general putting down of public aid to those who need it ( the dreaded socialism ).
I know. I've noticed it also.
I understand that you may not know that much about agriculture. So i am not going to go into too much detail here. My hat is off to anyone who can make 'Organic' work for them. We tried it for a number of years, and the cost and labor requirements were such that we could not maintain it and work jobs off farm as well. I use an integrated management system http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/factsheets/ipm.htm. Using inorganic pesticides as a last resort, and then using Bayer products which are designed to target a very narrow range of insects. One product that we had to use last year targeted a few species of plant mites, it was reputed to be harmless to other insects. The results were that the mites died, and the lady bugs living on my plants continued on their way. I don't expect you to understand this, or to even approve. I know that for some people it's all or nothing. For me, the system that I use is both effective, and environmentally friendly enough that I can sleep at night. No I do not register my crops with the government. That is required prior to crop failure in order to make a claim for relief. I do not carry crop insurance either. Not because I shouldn't but because I can't afford it yet. Stress sucks, but honestly with crop insurance the benefits are arguably not worth the expense. I know people who do use insurance, and have made claims. They were not reimbursed for the crops price at harvest, only for the initial investment. In other words the insurance paid them enough to replant, it did not replace lost income.
If I don't make a crop this year I will lose around $5000 dollars of money already invested, and around $30000 potential profit. My crop is not registered with any government agency so I can not collect on it. I do not, at this time carry crop insurance, I still can't afford it. I believe that what I am feeling right now might be called stress, I do irrigate, so drought is not that big of a concern. I use drip so it is minimal water waste.
Its not too difficult to grow vegatables/fruits and make $35k in a year. The poster never said he/she was rich, simply that it took 10 years to turn a profit.
$750 a week, $3.50 basket for tomatoes, peppers and onions. Have to sell 10 of each a day to make that. Not too hard if partnered up with a couple people, perhaps offer it as a crop share. High traffic location, etc etc.
Could be a hobby that became a job due to banking cartel recession.
Or just another occupier who decided to give it a try.
You are making suppositions. Why enter this conversation? It apparently has nothing to do with you. Start your conversation with wicker the farmer if you want facts about his situation - rather than throw out speculations of your own.
Just tossing some "food for thought" out there to the general public..
I grow produce, as far as I know there is no subsidy for produce. I could have gotten a loan, but chose not to. You are pretty close to right, we pocketed non of the money that we made for those 10 years, we put it all back into the farm. As far as tax credits, if your farm made 10,000 dollars, and you spent 9000 to make it why would you need a tax credit? Yes, expenses are deductible. We are set this year to make around $30,000 in profit. I will need about $10000 to put in next years crop, and another $4000 for equipment improvements. So I will pocket $15000 for the year. Next year will be the year that we can stop working off farm, provided that we don't have a crop failure. We will be able to triple what we are doing this year, which should make a living. Very far from being rich, but I can say what very few people can I did it on my own. I don't really have partners, I exploit child labor. OK, I grew up doing it, it isn't going to hurt my kids either.
I know corporate america and rich landlords love our tax money and reliance ...like subsidized cell plan and apartments...it all goes straight back in their pockets a sort of forced consumerism...manufactured consumerism and they still get to downsize to boot while retaining their sales even as the real unemployment rate is at around 20 percent they are the ones driving this system...and making law and tax codes sure isn't us as you said we lack power
What happened to the theory for a rising tide to lift all the boats, not just the top
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/09/10/some-95-of-2009-2012-income-gains-went-to-wealthiest-1/
Those at the top have been putting holes in everyone Else's boat - and looting em as they go down.
I'll have to find another way to oppose the 1 %. I can't and won't support communists. Looks like I'll be fighting the communists as well. They are like a bunch of vultures, waiting for things to get bad enough that people buy into their lies.
Wick-I can't even understand your constant references to communists.You seem to be terrified of something that is nonexistant.When it comes to American Farmers,I know a little.I am in favor of Anarcho-Syndicalism.Communists of any stripe are our second most hated enemies-and for good reason.Your situation would be dramatically improved if your top 3 threats were cut down a few pegs or eliminated.1)amoral,corrupt,profiteering corporations and their monopolies and illegal,bullying combinations 2)other farmers who have huge operations in your area who would do just about anything to grab your land 3)a corrupt state which imposes outrageous land and energy taxes upon you and does not care what you think about anything...Nobody involved in #OWS wants to grab your land,your guns or anything else you have got.Rather,just about all Americans would like to see the American Farmers treated with the respect they deserve and their status restored to a level which is consistent with their dignity.
My fears, are taken directly from posts on this forum. It seems clear now that those promoting the ideas of communism, and the libertarian socialist movement are a minority. They do not seem so since they post far more than anyone else. I agree with your 3 points, that would help most of us. I raise produce, which is not supported by a subsidy, and isn't ate up with middle men like some farm products are, mostly due to its perishable nature. The produce industry is infested with government regulations however. Some of those regs are good and actually protect the consumer, others are more geared toward limiting competition. The inspection cost for a farm growing 1 acre of produce is the same as that for a farm growing 100 acres. Is an inspection important for food safety? Yes, it is. Should the cost be uniform across the board for any size operation? Absolutely not. A large operation can absorb the cost without blinking an eye, for a small operation it can and usually does mean the difference between making a profit and not making one.
I do not agree with a bunch of bureaucrats,working w/o expertise or correct information making all of these decisions about regulations and taxation for people and treating them as though they were children.On top of that,we are all required to pay tax even though We The People are represented in absolutely NO way.The Ship Of State sails onward with total disregard,steered by corrupt,decadent people who have not one single clue as to what life is actually about.It can't go on forever-or even for very much longer IMHO.
If you are self employed, your tax rate is 33%. But we could go on all day about the crap Washington has done and is doing.
It seems to me we are in the middle of the most diabolic clusterfuck in the universe.We are the total prisoners of captured regulatory agencies,a corrupt judiciary,paralyzed and incompetent legislative bodies,captured and manipulative media,war profiteers,drug dealers,militantly entrenched burocracies,oligarchs who own the politicians outright and who drink champagne that costs 3k per bottle while eating ice cream covered with gold leaf...the situation does remind me of the patient who is struggling to live with a major illness.Then the patient gets "complications,'but is still able to stay alive.Then the patient gets complications of the complications and dies soon after.Gotta go do farm chores.Do not give up hope.If and when the American people can focus,and get organised,a better situation will come into being,because deep down,Americans hate injustice.
how much is the inspection?
$1500.00-$2000.00 depending on mileage, provided that everything meets approval and no reinspects.
The amount of work the inspector does and the paper work afterwards probably amount to about $200.00.
Good thing the government doesn't have a profit motive lol.
Do people believe in isms anymore,maybe superstitions folk, maybe alcoholism,
It's not that I condone fascism or any 'ism' for that matter. Ism's, in my opinion, are not good. A person should not believe in an 'ism,' he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon: 'I don't believe in Beatles. I just believe in me.' A good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off of people.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ferris_Bueller's_Day_Off http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ism
do you have any idea where your tax dollars go? 50% goes to the military not to "some lazy bastard" - can you tell me what % goes to those you don't seem to like. while your at it how about how much goes to companies shipping jobs overseas - and the big oil and big pharma and then big ag. could you break it down for me - if you do you will see that you are working so that rich men can get richer - those are the lazy bastards you are supporting.
Ask corporate america that question they are the ones partnering with them and making their goods in China...they seem to love Communism and slave labor and child labor as well as top heavy systems that screw the masses oh and for those who hate bureaucracy they sure do love to model themselves on it...just try getting through their chains of command when you have a customer complaint or problem.
http://deathbychina.com
Yes, I can guess their answer. We have that now. It is your answer that I am interested in. You offer an alternative?
Even the playing field...nationalize the fed ...stop borrowing from China refuse trade with countries who have no worker rights ...trade tarif (heavy import tax)...worlwide standard of worker rights and factory conditions as well as environmental standards...worldwide minimum wage no child or slave labor...or we don't trade with them ...and that's just to start they must respect human rights or we don't play with them.
Not bad!
Right On.
I've brought most of that up on here before, and get down voted for it. I'm out of lunch, so I'll have to finish this later as well as a couple of other posts.
As I try to understand how anyone can live within times so thoroughly proven to be rife with business and government corruption, have time enough to create an account and type multiple entries, have so much information given from different points of view right here within their easy grasp, and still manage to draw such an ignorant conclusion, one question comes to mind. The answer to which may explain such profound ignorance on your part.
By any chance are you a conservative?
I guess I just haven't done enough acid to see from your perspective. And all of your information comes from the great communist dictators of the world, just regurgitated here as 'new' ideas'. I backed Occupy when it was about reform, and getting money out of politics. I don't back a bunch of drug using communist scum.
That is exactly the kind of profound half-wit ignorance that I refer to. Communism is a system of economics in which all business is owned and run by the government, on supposed behalf of the people as a whole. That means no private industry big or small. No Apple Computer. No Microsoft. No Hollywood Movies. No CNN. No Starbucks. No Joe's Hardware. No Lou's Pizza. No Mom and Pop's Flower Shop. It would all fold in order to make way for government run EVERYTHING. If you would find the courage to put your partisan blinders aside for one moment, you would see that very few of us have ever suggested anything resembling Communism. Certainly nowhere near enough to represent the group. If you would stop and think freely for one moment instead of having your paranoid thoughts fed to you by the likes of Hannity, Limbaugh, Beck, Levin, Ingraham, Palin, Coulter, Dean, Bruce, and the rest of those die-hard conservative fear mongering puppet masters, you would also see that nothing short of an act of God would ever bring about Communism in the US. In other words, you may as well spend all of your time campaigning against witchcraft or extra-terrestrial rule. Because, it's NOT going to happen. By suggesting that anything resembling Communism may come to define America under Democratic rule or under ANY circumstances, you die-hard conservative paranoid wackos make blithering idiot fools of yourselves.
and I'll meet you for a drug test any day. That means ALL drugs from Alcohol to Zanex. I take NOTHING. No pills, powders, or shots of any kind. I seriously doubt you can say the same. So by comparison, you are the drug user.
Next.
Yes, I can say the same. It is a rare day that take an aspirin. No I am not a conservative half-wit. I don't watch fox news, because I don't have cable. My statements are not based on any one else's conclusions. My statements are based on observation of this forum. I have and will continue to publicize those statements on any and all forums and blogs that I can. It is very important to me to make certain that people like myself who find that we are not represented by Tea party, of libertarian party, or the GOP to realize also that we are not represented by Occupy. Someday, maybe a true peoples movement will start up, one that hasn't been co-opted by the communist party. We ask for a few basic reforms that would level the playing field. Nothing that hasn't been done before, what you offer us is communism. It is stated very clearly here. And yes, until you disarm America you will never have your communist utopia here. I am not the one who said that Occupy's goal was socialism, preferably communism, that was one of your own. Of your list, the only ones I have even heard of are Limbaugh (didn't he have drug problem a while back) and Palin who ran for VP. I gave you folks a chance, I listened. The only thing I heard were the same old tired lines that I heard as a child in the 60's. Dreams, fantasies, and a world of pure imagination. Promises of a beautiful future if I'd only just believe. The problem is my brain still works, and no matter how hard you spin it 2+2 still does not equal 5. I offered an olive branch, your reaction has made for you an enemy, rather than the friend you might have had. So keep dreaming, meanwhile the rich will keep getting richer and the poor poorer, and the middle will be saddled with the both of them. You guys could have done something, but you got distracted and side tracked. Maybe it was intentional who knows.
You can't say the same if you take any aspirin at all. Rarely or otherwise. For I take none under any circumstances. Not a single pill, powder, or shot of any kind since 1988.
There are many individuals here with a broad range of ideas. Many of which, we don't agree on. In fact, that, according to some of our critics has limited the effect of our efforts. Still, you still swear that what we offer is Communism. You go on to add that we can't have Communism until we 'disarm' America. Again, this is pure ignorance and radical paranoia on your part. Without even checking, I can easily guarantee that I can quote multiple users here other than myself who have gone on record with ideas other than Communism and a 'disarmed' America. I can also guarantee that the majority of those relative few here who do suggest Communism misuse the word just like you have several times now. Your failure to accept any of this even now, is pure blithering idiocy and cowardice.
By the way, Socialism is a system of economics in which all property is owned by the community as a whole. That fundamental element makes home ownership illegal. I do not recall a single user here calling for that fundamental element of Socialism. If any have, then it certainly has not been the majority.
In order to properly label a group, you must prove that your label applies accurately to the vast majority within said group. Otherwise, the label is false.
Again, pure ignorance on your part.
If you haven't heard of Hannity, Beck, Levin, Ingraham, Coulter, Dean, or Bruce, then you're living in your mother's basement playing video games all day. Two of the above are known of by the majority of Americans. One or more of the others are known of by the majority who follow politics.
Regarding those 'same old tired lines' that you claim to have heard in the '60's, how do you feel about a heavy concentration of wealth? What about the concept of a partial redistribution? Please answer from both a moral and logical point of view. Do so with this in mind:
I'm setting you up. Step carefully, for you are about to trip.
One last thing for now: You strongly imply that you are not just another utterly predictable conservative. I'll give you a chance to prove it.
Name one current issue on which you agree more with Democrats and less with Republicans. There are easily a half dozen or more major issues to chose from and another half a dozen less significant. If you can't, then name one recent event or development within the last 20 years on which Democrats in general were proven right and Republicans in general, proven wrong.
If you can, then I'll give you credit for breaking a string or two.
I live on a farm, and work an off farm job as well. The time I waste on this forum is time I could be better doing something productive. So no I haven't heard of your people. In order to properly label a group, do you think that the majority of Russians or Chinese wanted a dictatorship during their revolution? No but that is what they got. Democrat issues. the supreme court ruling I can't remember the name of. Harry Ried is leading an effort to pass a law reversing it. It concerns corporate contributions. Gay marriage, and abortion are two more.
Alright, your support of those three issues you mentioned near the end, including the Supreme Court ruling which recognizes corporations as people in some regards are proof enough that you are not a die-hard conservative. Certainly not on every issue. I take it back.
That is only a few. I have avoided giving a lot of details about my political beliefs. Because I am trying for common ground. There are enough communists here that I am very concerned that they might be the leaders among the group. It has happened before, every communist dictatorship in the world started as a peoples movement. Please, list some relevant issues, or some irrelevant ones. I will give my position on them. We will strongly disagree on some, we will agree on others, and there are some that I have not decided for sure where I stand. I don't read or listen to political commentators, so my views are my own.
I don't give Socialism or Communism a second thought except to calm irrational fears that they have any chance to take hold in America. Not that I'm offended by either concept. I'm not. I just don't support either and I don't worry about them taking hold in America. They never will. I will never be forced by law to give up my modest business unless it's done to benefit a larger and more profitable business. I will never be forced by law to give up my modest home unless it's done to make way for some sort of development intended to raise profits for some business entity. In other words, I have much more to fear from the horribly corrupt system that we have now and the greed that it fuels then I will ever have to fear from Socialism or Communism. Not that I want to live under them either. I don't. I want modest Capitalism with a reasonable distribution of wealth and a down to Earth populous working hard to keep it that way. Neither of which I will ever have.
I'm for a relatively free market system with strong regulation and a progressive tax scale that prevents monopolies and a heavy concentration of wealth. I'm for uniform corporate tax rates in every state with temporary relief for entities which struggle to profit. Virtually no subsidies for any corporation except for temporary tax relief for those with legitimate need. This in order to reduce the shock to the system from and to help prevent bankruptcies and failures. It won't happen.
I'm for securing the Southern border but also for allowing anyone to immigrate legally with any children they may have within one year of application provided they learn basic English and abide by all American laws. If they get caught working under the table or if they get convicted of a felony within 5 years, they get deported and have all assets acquired in America confiscated, in part to help pay for the expense of deportation. Some of this may happen someday.
I'm for birth control but against abortion under most circumstances. This won't happen. Abortion will always be a widespread method of birth control.
I'm for gay marriage. I see no reason why they should be forced to settle for anything less. I have no problem with their use of the word. This will probably happen in every state eventually.
I'm for gun ownership and concealed carry but also for strong regulation with mandatory back round checks and drug screens on every transfer. No guns allowed for convicted felons and no guns in the household of anyone on any drug known to have mind altering side-effects. I'm also for mandatory registration with reasonable limits on personal arsenals (functional) and sales bans on assault weapons and high capacity magazines. Grandfather clause. Nobody is to go to bed a law abiding citizen and wake up a criminal. Most of the regulation above will never happen.
I'm for regulating the living shit out of our horribly bloated and corrupt health care industry. I want AT LEAST 1/2 of that pharmaceutical CRAP off the market forever. I want the drug ads off TV and the pro-industry brainwash plots regulated in terms of scope and frequency. I want every network to be called out for their more recent and terribly calculated strategy of hand picking the relative few episodes of older TV shows specifically for their health care oriented story lines, which at the time were FAR less frequent and written with no ulterior motives. I want them fined for handpicking those relative few episodes in order to make it seem as if those story lines were always so incredibly common. They weren't. Not until 10 or 12 years ago. I want ZERO motive for any doctor to prescribe a test or drug except to diagnose or treat their patient. I want a government option and I want that industry cut down by whatever means necessary to a maximum of 10% of GDP. None of this will never happen.
I want a strong but friendly and humble America. I want military intervention to take place ONLY when it is necessary and ONLY to preserve National security or to help those in desperate need around the world. I also want our military to work with that of Mexico in order to exterminate all of the major drug cartels operating south of the American border. I want taxes raised as necessary in order to fund any military efforts, I want the troops paid damn well and I want private industry called to the table only as necessary. Not the other way around. Most of this will never happen.
I'm for using our own fossil fuels but ONLY in order to reduce our imports by an equal measure. In fact, I want mandatory improvements on fuel economy, mandatory reductions on carbon emissions, progressive costs for fossil fuels based on use, and strongly enforced limits on discretionary consumption of fossil fuels. I want our consumption as a nation DOWN. In other words, I want the people forced by law to make reasonable compromises between their desire to burn energy like there is no tomorrow and our moral obligation to combat Global Warming. After all, it's primarily our fault. Most of this will never happen.
That's enough for now.
Paragraph one, no problems there. I do think that there is more of a threat of an attempted communist take over than you though I too do not see it succeeding.
Paragraph 2, agreed, with some add ons of my own. A distinction in the tax code for corporations vs unincorporated businesses. Different rules, if you will. To big to fail corporations should be broken up like the trusts were once upon a time. I am not a fan of free markets, and suspect that you aren't either. I know you said you were, but you also called for tariffs and regulations, which make the system something other than a free market. I agree with you there, although we are using different words to describe the same thing.
I can agree there as well, it seems reasonable. I would prefer to halt all immigration period until the unemployment rate reaches a certain level. Something like 2 or 3%. If we can't employee our own, we don't have room for extras. Other countries do this so it isn't unheard of.
Abortion, I have made a blanket statement concerning it. I think that late term abortions should be revisited with modern science, maybe draw a line and say anything past this level of development counts as a person and has rights.
Gay marriage, already stated that one.
Gun control, I can agree with most of what you say, assault weapons, maybe a separate class requiring a psych eval and training course. BUT, no more gun control under this government, I do not trust them to pass the most common since sounding law with the dirtiest hidden trick in it. Give me a government that I can trust and I would look at it differently.
Health care, it needs fixing. I don't really have much to add to the debate. I can't disagree with you there, because I don't know how to fix it. What your suggesting, would probably be a good start.
I like your views on the military as well. I do know that there are situations that we can't be informed of (the public), that might require military intervention. I don't want to see the US hesitate to use military force because it fears how we might react. I also would like to be able to trust the government to do that. (an example would have been an embassy under attack and we are not told why the military went in , just that it was pressing)
You are for using fossil fuels? I think we should get away from them as quickly as possible. I think that electric works for metro traffic well enough. But for rural conditions IC engines just haven't been replaced yet. As an alternative, I would suggest that instead of the government paying some farmers to not farm, that those farmers be encouraged to produce corn for ethanol. Did you know that the bombers used in Europe during WW 2 ran on Alcohol produced from American corn?
An economy we can live with, Charles Walters in his book 'Unforgiven' talks about peoples capitalism. He describes a system that disperses the means of production through out the population. Privately owned small businesses and farms rather than mega corporations. You should find a cop and read it, as far as I know it isn't available on line.
You are definitely the free thinker seeking common ground that you said you were the other day. Certainly not a die-hard conservative. I misjudged you though I still feel that you are harsh at times.
I am for gradually reducing our use of fossil fuels. In part, by making simple sacrifices. But I see the double digit reductions taking years and years even with noble efforts. There are a lot of engines and power plants out there. It took decades and decades to industrialize America on fossil fuels and it would take decades to convert the bulk of that use to alternative sources. That is, if we had the guts as a nation. We don't.
There is common ground to be had. It's unfortunate that our screwed up leaders and their sold-out partisan pundits can't find enough to make any real progress. They should be ashamed of themselves. It's not rocket science.
Think what a QE program could do for unemployment and the fast growth of clean energy implementation.
I like this vid - except for the guy advocating for the continued use/extraction of fossil fuel:
Hydrogen; Nature's Fuel - YouTube
I will check it out. Thanks.
I still like alcohol as an expedient alternative that would help agriculture, create job, burns cleaner than fossil fuels, and can be used in many cars and other machines currently in use with little or no modifications. And it's renewable.