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Forum Post: Public schools are failing horribly. What should we do?

Posted 2 years ago on Feb. 17, 2012, 6:25 p.m. EST by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

As many know public schools are failing. There are some that still do well but they are usually in wealthier areas were education is highly stressed. Many would point to a list of issues where the schools go wrong. I would like to ask some questions.

1) There are many students that simply don't give a damn, why do we waste money on educating these kids? Why not simply let them go crash and burn? Why force them to do something is they really don't want to?

2) The Catholic schools system is one of the best systems in the country, i.e. The Jesuits whose main purpose is to educate. There are plenty of Catholic Schools in bad areas of Chicago where the kids come the worst walks of life, almost all of which are on financial aid, and they seem to do well with these kids. In Chicago Catholic education is considered a "A golden ticket out". So why don't we apply some of the basic principles of Catholic education to Public education? They are clearly doing something right.

Just some ideas, Would love to hear from you. Anyone use of profanity or vulgar will not be tolerated.

243 Comments

243 Comments


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[-] 7 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

Take them one at a time but in the interest of space I'm going to oversimplify. 1) today's problem child in class is tomorrow's gang member and/or inmate. It's a serious error if society doesn't try to educate everyone. 2) The kids in Catholic schools have at least one adult at home that wants them there and makes demands on the child to learn, home support makes all the difference in the world.

[-] 5 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago
  1. You never ever give up on children. How could you say that?

  2. Catholic schools are not the answer. Public schools are the answer, but a public school system where every child has the same opportunity regardless of their address.

[-] 4 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Occupy is shaking things up. It is learning to raise hell in the most creative ways and is on target when it comes to education. We need decent public schools for each and every kid.

I'm in my sixties and a product of NYC public schools. As a simple example let's take school lunches. When I was a kid they were terrible and not nutritious. Parents were unhappy and complained. Nothing changed. My kids who are now adults suffered the same. We complained and nothing changed. I hear it still hasn't changed much. I remember a math workbook my daughter brought home from school. It was full of errors and typos! I was Parent Association VP and I raised hell. Nothing changed.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

I can totally relate. One of my kids once had an elementary school teacher who could not teach math and no textbook. Not one parent spoke up. I spoke to the teacher, got nowhere. I spoke to the principal, got nowhere. So, I went over their heads to the district math supervisor and within about one week, I kid you not, the fourth graders, who were facing major placement tests for middle school, had their textbooks. It does work to speak out. Never give up!

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Good on you. In my case I was PA Veep and I even brought the workbook to a District meeting and demanded it be pulled and corrected. It already had been given out to the kids, with no one editing it or proofreading it. The School superintendent defended the workbook.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

I always defend public education, but it surely does have problems and it is always worth fighting to make it better.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I agree. Complex systems have problems. I'm not for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[-] -2 points by B76RT (-357) 2 years ago

if she couldn't teach math , how did she get certified as a teacher?

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

Good question, but the text book was a big help. I moved out of that school district, to tell you the truth, after that year. But, I was lucky enough to be able to do that.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

The certifying people were all ex-coaches who lost their jobs coaching and they had to put them somewhere.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes, and to say that things are that way because they are that way is rediculous. They are that way because the established power ( i.e. the corporate oligarchy ) wants them that way. To blame Washington isn't even the point, because as we have labored relentlessly here to point out, Washington has become their tool.

How to fix it? That's what we're here figuring out!

[+] -4 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

Dismantle the DoE! Get rid of the teacher's unions!

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Just like the brainwashed, monosylabic, one track minds of all the neo-conned.

It would be interesting to see if you could string together sentences with more than one clause. People might take you a little more seriously, but I doubt it.

[-] -1 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

You don't like my efficient writing style?

[-] 0 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

When I was a kid we had a lunchroom...It was a place where we ate the lunches we brought from home. Now you want nutrition? Bring your own! Lunches are not part of the curriculum..neither are a lot of the things we do in our schools. The cost is out of hand and they aren't learning anything...Oh wait! They are learning how to score in golf and bowling...I forgot those important areas, I guess.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

When I was a kid in school (I'm 66 now) the school offered lunches. Some kids got them for free, some for reduced price and some paid in full. Also could bring lunch from home or go home for lunch. that was the way it was in school in the big city. The school lunches were not good and not nutritious. More than a few "free lunch kids" dumped them and preferred to be hungry.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Let's see, 2012-77=1935. This means that you would have started school on or around 1940 or 1941, yes?

Let's have a look see at the history of the National School Lunch Program

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

Go ahead...It won't mean much if you weren't there. 1939 however. I started when I was 4 1/2. Country school. Three rooms. Kindergarten...1st, second, 3rd. Then 4th fifth and sixth in the same room. Oh yes! I forgot. There was a lunchroom!.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Oh, it means quite a bit. It demonstrates why it was started and whom benefited and the problems that were encountered before it was up and running at full capacity.

:D

[+] -4 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

So now you are bringing your life long experience of reform failure to OWS?

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Helping end segregation and helping stop the Vietnam War, and helping bring women's equality to the fore, and fighting for gay rights. My generation of activists certainly made our mistakes and certainly left a lot undone but we did some things. We also changed the entire political climate which was McCarthyist through and through - we openly opposed a war while it was being fought.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Another excellent post! You are on the money!

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

Thanks, GF. So glad you're back.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Thanks, BW. I'm glad your still here.

[-] -1 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

Why is the model of Catholic Education not the answer? The Catholic system is with out a doubt the best education system in this country. Catholic Grade schools exceed government standards even those in poor neighborhoods, High Schools also do the same, and Catholic universities are some of the best in the country, i.e. Boston College, SLU, Marquette, and I do believe Brown is Jesuit. So why would we not learn from the best? Why do Liberals always ignore the constant success of Catholic Education and Catholics in general?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

I'm not saying Catholic schools are bad at all, and I've been to both, so I know. Similar to the public schools some are excellent and some are pretty poor. Catholic schools are private schools so it is not fair to compare results. You have more privileged kids in Catholic schools. I agree, the Jesuits are excellent. I just think, overall, we need to support our public school system and try to emulate the best schools within that system. There are some pretty damn good school systems. I live in one and my children are the beneficiary. But, you know what, there is a road that you cross to leave my town and you immediately go into one of the worst school districts in my state. It shouldn't be that way. Doesn't have to be that way.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

There was a time when public schools in America were as good as, or better than, Catholic schools. The main reason that changed, I think, was that public schools were once allowed to maintain control over classrooms. Now the kids control the classrooms, to the benefit of no one, least of all the kids. School teachers must be given the power once again to maintain discipline. I've seen PS classrooms that are a zoo, and teachers not supported by the administration for fear of parent wrath. I think that is the general situation, and it plays right into the hands of those who would destroy public schools. That is why it is allowed to go on.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

There is definitely a big societal factor playing into how our schools are run. And, fear of litigation is another big problem that holds our schools back tremendously.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes it is. By discipline, I don't mean corporal punishment BTW. But teachers need to be given the tools to keep control of classrooms. From what I've seen that is a central issue. In that sense education should still be a privilage, at least to the extent that the price of participating is cooperation.

Kids that are too disturbed, or whatever, to participate should be separated and given the attention they need as well, but in a separate setting. Throwing both groups together does a disservice to both.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

I didn't think you meant corporal punishment. You are far to kind for that, GK. Today, teachers can't even say much to kids without getting in trouble, it's ridiculous. And, you make a good point about special ed. I don't know enough about it, but it should be re-evaluated.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Re-evaluated expanded and properly applied. I agree.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Agree. Discipline and proper behavior. What is wrong with that? We need to teach to the receptivity and the needs of each child.

One bad apple can spoil the barrel? Get that bad apple to some needed attention find the connect to the path of learning there. Let the other apples remain fresh, receptive, active and enthused. This also goes to the point of stopping bullying. Separate and treat, do not allow wounding of others and eventual expulsion of the troubled.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

God, doesn't this seem like plain common sense? It only goes on, as you have pointed out, because they don't want an educated public.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Exactly so, much more easily led/controlled. A Just point and shoot population ( tell them what you want and letem loose ).

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I also believe that public schools were allowed to decline after integration; one good example of the price we all pay for racism in an eclectic democracy.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

True. We forget our past ( again ) the American Indians are for all intents and purposes the original settlers. The rest of us are immigrants who came here to escape repression brutality and poverty, injustice etc. etc. same as our new immigrants ( legal or otherwise ), we all ended up here for the same thing an opportunity. As each new ethnic group arrived they were also treated with abuse by those that got here 1st. Lets end that cycle.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Good point.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thank you. ( not too preachy ? )

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

No, I don't think so.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I had to ask. One time not too long ago I had one commenter say that I sounded like an East Coast Evangelical.

Well I figured they were trying to say I was preachy. Not sure though because I was born in the South West and grew up in the North Central often referred to as part of the mid-west.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Also if the only good schools are private schools ( expensive to attend ), then the general population can be dumb'ed down while private population can move forward with their control initiative.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

That's right.

[-] -2 points by B76RT (-357) 2 years ago

they ignore it because the success of catholic schools embarasses the public schools and the teachers union. too much of a generalization to say that kids in catholic schools are from privileged backgrounds . many parents work extra jobs and do without a lot so that their kids can go to a catholic school.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

Glad someone sees the problem correctly. Some people really care. Isn't it odd that most of our legislators send their kids to private schools? Doesn't that tell anyone anything?

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Yes, it tells us that they have stepped into a political position and, in doing so, have put their families at risk. Further, it is better for the children to associate with other children that are in the same position so that security factor is maintained. Secondly, it allows much more privacy and, therefore, anything the kids do that could be used against them is kept private. Third, they can make those lifelong connections.

We only have many centuries to see this same pattern. . It does not reflect on the public education system.

[+] -4 points by NightShade (163) 2 years ago

you speak like a fucking union rep for teachers which are the main problem the school system is failing.

Education isn't what makes a person, it's the environment in which their society exist within.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Oh, another member of Slytherin. Why not find somewhere else to practice The Dark Arts?

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

That is too funny.

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[-] 3 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"Union rep" and "teacher" are now insults. Think about that. How the language we speak has been turned upside down.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

It is TRULY ORWELLIAN! These people want us to think teachers are cold-blooded criminals.

[-] 2 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

It's part of the attack on education. And unions. And workers rights.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Damn right it is!

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I missed this. You are right on. :D

[-] 2 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

thanks

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

No. I'm not a union rep nor am I a teacher. Throw your insults elsewhere. The whole school system is not failing. It is the schools in disadvantaged areas that are failing.

[-] 1 points by timirninja (263) 2 years ago

why not implement artistic programs in those disadvantaged areas as you said, and for those stupid kids who won't learn anything?

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

Art is a very important way to reach some kids. I agree. A lot more focus needs to be placed on the disadvantaged kids. Those are the areas where the schools are failing us and they also don't reach kids at a young enough age.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

Please do not dwell on reasons for failures. Dwell instead on reasons for successes.Raising the quality of teaching is simple....

Find a school that has a high success rate..say, in math. Go to that school, copy their methods; get the same texts; get their daily lesson plans; get their testing facilities. Copy their very schedules. If you can, send your teachers to them for instruction on how they implement their courses. Do the same for EVERY area of education.

For goodness sake! Let's do something that actually works for a change!

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Jesus, if you were a teacher I know at least one problem with the public schools . . . linear thinking.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

I agree about being positive. Many of our schools do work, but I think getting them all to work is easier said than done. There is a shortage of good teachers in the areas where the schools are bad, therefore, training has to start from the ground up.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

You missed my point....My solution is to FIND THE SCHOOL THAT IS AT THE TOP OF THE LIST OF SUCCESSFUL SCHOOLS. Then copy their programs.

If you want to be a good electrician, find a good one and learn... If you want to be a good barber, find a good one and learn...If you want to be good at anything, find someone who is....then copy their successes! What's not to understand about this???

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

What do you think is going to happen? All the teachers from the bad schools are going to show up at the good schools to learn. Come on. It would be a lot more complicated than that.

[-] 0 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

It isn't complicated at all. Not if you have good leadership at the top instead of failing coaches who have been given supervising jobs because they can't be fired due to a fear of tenure by school boards. FIND WHAT WORKS AND COPY IT! WHAT'S SO COMPLICATED??? DOES THIS SOUND JUST TOO EASY?? STOP EXCUSING BAD PERFORMANCE!

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

I disagree that it would be easy. And, no need to yell at me. And, I never excused bad performance.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

You mean like those that incorporate MI ?

A few schools that have incorporated MI are located here .

I find it quite odd that you have a Masters in Education and know little about pedagogy and prefer a copy and paste version of education.

[-] 1 points by timirninja (263) 2 years ago

that what im trying to say: separate them after exams and combine those bad individuals in autistic groups =)

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

Not sure what you are saying.

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

No we cannot put a bunch of bad students together. They must be challenged.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

Apparently almost all districts are disadvantaged! I AM a teacher. Believe me, education has been on the road to failure for forty years or more. Soon schools will be as obsolete as the horse and buggy. The internet will eventually solve our educational problems.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

You really think that? Do you mean kids should learn online without the human artistic touch of a teacher?

[-] 0 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

For the most part that "Human Artistic Touch" has PROVEN to be a failure. Kids learn when they have to...people learn when they have to... Most learning in today's schools comes IN SPITE of that artistic touch we seem to be so proud of.. Maybe if we took away that touch we may have learning again. Let's see---bowling---cross country skiing--track---football--golf and dozens more so called "extra curricular" studies get in the way of real learning. Get back to basics and we'll have some kick-ass schools.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Such a conservative view. Yes, let's take away art and gym, and drama, and foreign languages, and JUST TEACH THESE STUPID KIDS THE BASICS! Those things ARE the basics, my friend, if we ever want to improve our society. If you don't like them than you have no business being a teacher.

[-] 0 points by NightShade (163) 2 years ago

Budcm has got the right answer and to improve on this once children have learn the basics they should go through corporate training and have business careers pay for there trade. This way once they have finished the course they are guaranteed job placement.

Stop teaching them crap they won't ever use in the real world and start teaching them how to handle a check book and State civil Laws. Maybe the next generation won't be taken advantage of.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Turn them into corporate drones, than NightShade will take care of them! Sound good to you?

And that name, NightShade, I mean what can you say - Troll. Budcum to, I assume.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

corporate drones

Do they fly?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I meant drones in the sense of bees, however they, and not just the drones and the bees, might be flying around someday in some sort of mini-drones, in which case we will all be monitored by drones in drones. I would have defied any negative utopian writer fifty-years-ago to top that!

In fact I think our world today is getting weirder than anybody could have predicted. This nano-technology just scares the hell out of me.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hey GK. It's always something isn't it? Glad I was a boyscout - it was an early introduction to - Always Be Prepared.

Nano tech awesome possibility's as well as scary.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

people learn when they are interested and engaged

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

I'm with you there. I'd like to see sports diminished greatly and academics elevated. I don't agree about teachers, though. I think one of the big problems that came with "No Child Left Behind" is that it stressed teaching to the test and removed the teacher's ability to teach artistically. Let good teachers do their thing.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Actually, I find the opposite is true. Could you bring me the proof regarding "Human Artistic Touch" has PROVEN to be a failure. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

Out of context..and not even MY context. If the educational system depends of this "artistic touch", and the educational system is failing according to all statistics, where else can one place the blame for that failure?

If you don't believe our educational system is failing, then we have no common basis for argument.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I'm following your line of argument. I would still like statistics that prove that the Human Artistic Touch has proven to be a failure.

Have you seen this ?

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

Every school will not succeed...every school will not fail. We must find a solution to the demonstrable failure of the system. To deny it is failing is sticking our head in the sand. Look at what is succeeding and follow that pattern. Many rural schools do well. Why? Probably because they ARE small. Consolidation hasn't helped a bit.

There are only a finite number of Alpha positions in any school, large or small. The smaller schools give a better chance to a larger percentage of the students vying for them. Kids are not lost in a crowd. Personally, I feel that any high school (9 thru 12) shouldn't have more than 200 students to care for.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

http://dukespace.lib.duke.edu/dspace/handle/10161/3588

It depends on where you live and what your state is doing. You are going to find significant problems in rural areas as well.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

Nearly 60 percent of its students are behind grade level in math

what grade line

I could declare 8th graders must understand calculus by 8th grade

and than claim proof that schools are failing because that is not the case

.

as to online schools, I think humans learn best when engaged with other humans

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Every state has standards. Go to your state's Department of Education website to find out what they are. You will need to start there.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I believe every institution trying to teach actually accomplishes some teaching

the people should be supporting their efforts and not claiming these schools as failures and discounting them

the assumption that schools are failures sets the fulcrum by which the balance of the issues of pro and con arguments is set.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

And I believe that there is an intentional and deliberate attempt to destroy the public education system and that there are institutions that are hell bent on stealing from the public coffers. I firmly believe that this intention is demonstrated in standardized testing which has been designed for deliberate failure. The studies that have been done show that charter schools (and now virtual classrooms) are failing or at best doing the same as public schools.

[-] 0 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

You have NO idea what goes into the formation of standardized testing. Get your head out of the sand, (Or your ass, wherever). You ARE the problem. There is NO excuse for bad schools except bad leadership, from the top down. People like you ignore the obvious problems in favor of what you consider an excuse for bad resulst. Here's a site for you.....

Go to lulu.com

Place the name Robert Morrison in the search engine...Go down the list of his numerous books until you reach the one that is "Ramblin'--A Philosophy of One." GET IT AND LEARN.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Shall we talk about Pearson ? Textbook writer and test creator and lobbying? No?

How about if we focus on essay grading ? No?

How about Murdoch's entry into the education system ? No?

I know, I know..........lets play a game of knowing in advance that the problem is poverty and that we have schools that desperately need the cash but defend and justify 45 Million Dollars a year spent (in Illinois) on standardized testing.

Gee, kind of looks like you need to pull your head out of your ass.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I get Robert Solomon.

I would have expected better accuracy from you.

[-] 0 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

I taught for 26 years...I made my own standardized tests. Every student in my classes took the same test as others over the years. They were all graded on the same scale. Stop making excuses for failures. Dwell instead on which schools succeed and copy them to a "T".

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I doubt that you taught at all. But, I will go along with your little character for a sec.

You stopped teaching in the 1980s, did you not? You ARE the same character that tried to tell me that libraries were not closing, amiright? Why don't you bring yourself up to date with the education system and start looking at the problems that are inherent in standardized testing and inclusion and then get back to me with some type of argument that demonstrates that you have some comprehension of the issues?

[-] 0 points by PeaceNow (84) 2 years ago

There's a beautiful woman 'Charlotte Iserbyt', that I'd like you to meet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFqfiDiJIPI

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

I don't have time to watch the whole video but I've seen pieces of it and I've read about her. I think maybe there was some movement to do the things she talks about to the extent that they talked about them, but they never really succeeded. Let's face it, the worst thing about a public education system is that it promotes the nation-state. I can tell you, though, the teachers in my school district go out of their way to give kids well-rounded points of view and controversial points of view and I just don't see this. Didn't see it in my own education either. Our biggest problem with the dumbing down of America is our societal norms and values.

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[-] -1 points by NightShade (163) 2 years ago

Dear beautifulworld disadvantaged area's are not inner cities, the 2010 census already prove this, so stop asking for hand outs, you've had enough for the past 3 decades and look where that has gotten us. government controlled education is not the answer, it may have been in Nazi Germany 1941.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

The only people getting handouts in this country have been the wealthy.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Fix Public Schools . . .damn! We once HAD very good public schools. Then they were attacked by the evil overlords. Now they suck. What's so hard to understand?

[-] 2 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Once we had teachers and administrators in our schools who made the effort to EARN the respect of not only the students, but that of the parents of those students. Respect isn't an automatic gift, it is something one should strive to earn and once earned valued because it is easily lost.

Once we had teachers who actually KNEW the students name without a clipboard list, knew at least the basics about the family and made an effort to understand why Mondays were relief days and Fridays terror days.

Once even the kids from homes where the parents were 'too busy' to pay attention, had the opportunity to excel and given the incentive to do so.

I'm not blaming the teachers and administration, even though it appears I am...I'm looking at school closures which add students to already crowded classrooms, I'm looking at funding which does not allow for updated books or even enough old ones. I'm looking at school boards that are more worried over 'pocket change' than the quality of education and space available.

I'm looking at schools which expend funds on extra curricula and sports programs rather than on academics. Realizing that for some students those very programs are tickets to a (hopefully) better future.

No child left behind did not raise the standard, it did not maintain the standard, it lowered it too far below the bar.

What should we do? Keep our schools open, volunteer to help with noneducational events and class exercises (ones a degree is not necessary). Let's try giving a 'damn' once again.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I agree with everything that you have said. That is a wonderful post.

There are schools where parental participation is down to needing a body present so that the school doesn't need to have someone clean up the lunchroom. There are schools that do what they can to avoid testing for disabilities because they do not want to spend the resources for children with disabilities. Many times parents do not understand how to get this done.

There are a lot of schools that may have problems with a child but refuse to contact the parent. In addition, they may not bother to notify the parent if the kid has been suspended at the time of suspension. It is sent in the mail. Well, the parent cannot do anything about problems if they are not made aware.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Well, it seems to me you're looking in the right places for the problem. Government cannot solve all our problems, but when students don't have textbooks, and teachers have to pay out-of-pocket for basic supplies, then it becomes apparent that government can be part of the problem. Yes, funding for schools in a real issue.

In the good old days, the Repubs, are so fond of referring to, only one parent needed to work to support a family. Now both parents have two jobs, and they still can't make ends meet. What do these two problems, for example, have in common . . .?

The assault on American workers and democracy.

[-] 2 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"the evil overlords" Watch your mouth! ;)

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

LOL! I'll try!

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

There are two areas where the voters cannot blame on anyone but themselves... their police force and educational system. School boards and local officials are elected directly by those effected... let's not blame our own failures on some bogey man in Washington,

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Are you saying "no child left behind" wasn't cooked up in Washington? That's just the latest in a freight train of anti-public school legislation coming from Washington.

[-] 0 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

Of course it was bad legislation. You STILL elect school boards. Elect someone who will do what is necessary at the local level and ignore the rest. What? Have they legislated balls out of the picture too?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I agree about school board elections. I think that definately is something we need to become more involved with!

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yep. schools once taught how to "think freely", they used to teach "how to learn", the used to teach creativity.

This was in the hay-days of the cold war. When innovative/creative thinking was being promoted to defend this country.

Now the corrupt want to dumb down society. It is easier to control an ignorant population.

Education of the population was one of the great efforts that we used to promote for exportation to the world. So that world societies could think and reason for themselves and so address needed social change in their country's.

[-] 2 points by fairforall (279) 2 years ago

Teachers and parents are those with the most influence on a student. If the schools aren't doing what is needed, then do it at home.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yeah that works out real well with both parents working a full time job and perhaps a part time job or two as well.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

if job income was better, both parents would not have to be worker

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yep. Or reduced hours workers. Better able to function as a family.

[-] 0 points by fairforall (279) 2 years ago

You seem resolved to the idea that parents don't have time to provide the guidance needed for their children. So, according to you, we can't depend on the parents. What about the teachers - should we have expectations of them since the parents don't have time to participate?

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yes we should, teachers and the teaching institutions and the educational support structure. This is the society we have right here today. Largely dependent on others good will and performance. As for most, their time is not their own.

[-] 1 points by fairforall (279) 2 years ago

Therein lies part of the problem - this idea that we dependent on others. "their time is not their own". sure it is, if you decide to give it away, that is your prerogative and responsibility to understand what it means - ie, I won't have time to devote to my children.

What do you think of the suggestion to model public school on the Catholic school model presented earlier in this thread?

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

If you are a wage slave you have no choice. Keep your job while you try to keep a roof over your family's heads or take on the teaching yourself while you look for a good cardboard box to inhabit.

Catholic school?

Catholic school is a private school structure you pay a lot to attend.

[-] 1 points by fairforall (279) 2 years ago

I disagree. Almost every family I know are 2 worker families and the majority of them do a very good to exceptional job of spending time ensuring their children are getting the education they need. I include my own family in that circle. You put priorities on what is important to you.

So you think Catholic school is better because "you pay a lot to attend"?

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Apparently then you and those family's are not wage slaves and happen to have good paying wages and decent hours.

Assigning priorities? You are talking luxury to a major portion of the population. I'll take a wild guess and figure that you take a vacation every year?

For most of the working class that priority is fixed on keeping a roof any roof over their head. Vacation is a sick day.

I did not say that the Catholic school system was better. The Catholic School system, is what it is, one of the things it is, is private/expensive.

[-] 1 points by fairforall (279) 2 years ago

No, I don't vacay every year. I would say most of the families I am referring to are VERY middle class and still find time for their children while keeping their house in order.

I asked you what you thought of the suggestion to model the Catholic school model. And?

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Ran out of thread so : 1 points by fairforall (186) 1 minute ago

it is. what do you think of the model in terms of its ability to educate students? ↥like ↧dislike permalink

I think the parents there have a vested interest to see their kids brought to graduation.

I don't think the education those kids receive is special in anyway.

I grew-up with a bunch of Catholic kids. About the only thing I can say about their experience was they thought that they received a lot of discipline and behavior correction.

Then if their parents didn't pay to continue their education in Catholic Private school after grade 9 they went into public school and basically ran wild with their 1st experience of freedom ( lax discipline, free flexible student directed structure ).

[-] 1 points by fairforall (279) 2 years ago

Agreed. A significant prob with public school is the "progressive" liberalism that has taken away from basic education including the discipline and behaviour correction you mention.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

And I said : The Catholic School system, is what it is, one of the things it is, is private/expensive.

[-] 1 points by fairforall (279) 2 years ago

it is. what do you think of the model in terms of its ability to educate students?

[-] 1 points by fairforall (279) 2 years ago

I don't believe anyone has said raising children does not come without responsibilities. And those responsibilities do not come without sacrifice.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

That is still no help. When a major portion of the population is having a hard time just getting enough sleep to be and remain productive and so employed and living under a roof. Until families can be families again and not wage slaves the problem must be dealt with in the educational system.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

You said it!

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hey GK. Good to see you back in action.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Good to know there are people like you to take up the slack:)

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Well I try, fortunately we have many others who do good work.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yes, fortunately we have finally really developed a good team here! Many new people here with their hearts and minds in the right place!

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

This I hope will be a faster growing trend as we move forward.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

As do I.

[+] -5 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

We finally agree on something. Disband the DOE!

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I never said I thought that would be a good idea. Why is it some people think that to fix every problem you need to get rid of the agency created to fix the problem?

Some people just refuse to see that government agencies don't fuction, that used to function, because they have been under a concerted attack. That's been the whole right wing plan - destroy the regulatory agencies, then scream "Get rid of regulations because they don't work!"

Everybodies on to that sneaky little slight of hand, so go preach it to the morons at the Heritage Foundation - everybody else is on to it.

[-] 2 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

It always seems to be a percentage of American's answer, to disband, eliminate Government Agencies...when the answer is much simpler than that...get out of the way and let the agencies do what they were created to do.

Politics still is the game even when it doesn't wear the name.

[-] -2 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

Is public education better or worse since the DOE was established?

BTW, the word is "Everybody's" not "Everybodies".

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Man, you really are a case study in logical falacies. It's quite interesting, in a sort of scientific way.

[-] -2 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

Well is it better or worse?

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Look, I'm not going to respond to any more of you're comments. It really feels unchivalrous to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. It really does.

[-] -2 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

Sorry to hurt your feelings, I thought I was talking to an adult. 'Night 'night.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

It's better. Take a look at these Offices. Scroll down to the Office For Civil Rights and click on it. I like to call the OCR the kick ass and take names office.

Note the following: The mission of the Office for Civil Rights is to ensure equal access to education and to promote educational excellence throughout the nation through vigorous enforcement of civil rights. We serve student populations facing discrimination and the advocates and institutions promoting systemic solutions to civil rights problems. An important responsibility is resolving complaints of discrimination. Agency-initiated cases, typically called compliance reviews, permit OCR to target resources on compliance problems that appear particularly acute. OCR also provides technical assistance to help institutions achieve voluntary compliance with the civil rights laws that OCR enforces. An important part of OCR's technical assistance is partnerships designed to develop creative approaches to preventing and addressing discrimination.

Now, click on Reading Room and then on Recent Resolutions. Now scroll down and have a look at what is under Complaint Resolutions

that's why

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Why do you want to disband the United States Department of Energy?

What are you, like the discounted Craig's list troll? Try: the ED.

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[-] -2 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

Actually, disband both. Both are failures. DoE... google it.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Not relevant to a conversation on public schools. DOE is the acronym for the Department of Energy. ED or the ED is the acronym for the Department of Education.

[-] 3 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I see nothing inherently superior with Catholic schools. I mean, they don't outperform public schools in terms of math or science, and while they do a better job of getting students to graduation, the only real visible difference is cultural. Catholic schools sort of self-select (albeit inadvertently), and so it only goes to prove the old maxim, when parents give a shit, students are more likely to give a shit. So I would contend that the problem is cultural (versus a systematic problem with our educational system). I mean, most of our metrics are comparable with other advanced nations. Class size, education level of teachers, money spent per pupil, etc. Somehow we have to make learning "cool" (although I'm not sure how we accomplish this). If kids "want to learn" ... the resources are abundantly available. I will say one additional thing we could do is improve the physical facilities in poorer school districts.

[-] 1 points by RedSkyMorning (220) 2 years ago

Catholic schools can't accomodate Special Ed, meaning very smart, students, so I wouldn't expect their test scores to much higher than average, since they lose these students. The US spends way more per pupil than other advanced nations for about the same results. But the real problem is the DISPARITY in education. Funding for schools comes from property taxes most often, so poor districts have bad schools. The funding is one of the main problems. These districts must hire newer and less educated teachers because they can only pay the state minimum. They also have higher principal and superintendant turn-over. Anyone who is good looks for greener pastures.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Agreed. On average, we spend more than other countries, and our results are questionable. But I don't necessarily blame our educational system. We can say our schooling model may be somewhat outdated, but learning just isn't fashionable in America. I think it may be because we feed people too much feel good bullshit, and people have the impression that they're smarter than they really are.

[-] 3 points by TheTrollSlayer (347) from Kingsport, TN 2 years ago

First get the vote for me i'm for education but don't have a clue whats going on politicians out of the picture and any socially air headed moron that wants to use the schools to further their social status who also don't have a clue what the problems are with teaching out of the picture. It's the teachers that do the job and amongst them are the best and brightest and thats who we should listen to how to improve the schools.

[-] 2 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

home school! If every one home schooled, they would be forced to do something.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

public schools are not failing

what scale is being applied to imply failing?

it is the job of the school to teach

i can't think of a single school that doesn't teach

[-] 1 points by infonomics (393) 2 years ago

Americans may not be failing but they are certainly not at the top:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trends_in_International_Mathematics_and_Science_Study

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

The true purpose of the education system is to educate people so they become better voters, but then again that was the idea back in the 17th century.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I was required to take both a civics class and an economic class in high school

[-] 0 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

And now here you are on an OWS site as an expert! LOL

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

I didn't ask.... I'm taking AP economics class, AP literature, Honor Latin 4, Pre-Calc, Honors Physics, Symphonic Band, and Theology Quest next year. Why does this matter?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I learned about the function of the governments and economics

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

I'm currently taking AP Gov....

[-] -1 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

If you can't see that today's public school grads are dumber than dirt, then you are probably one of them.

[-] 2 points by Faithntruth (997) 2 years ago

Why should children give a shit about a system that appears to be failing? They watch their parent s struggle to make ends meet, or maybe they dont ven see the parent who works two jobs. They see everything. Including the people who seem to get rich playing sports or making music....looks easy when you watch these very talented people, without understanding how hard they work to get where they are, and how many dont make it....

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Catholic schools pick and choose who attends. Public schools do not.

Public schools are not failing horribly. There are those that are dropout mills. The issues in the public education problem are the same as they were before and that is poverty. End the standardized testing and inclusion.

There are those students that have a lot on their plates. A lot. It is very difficult for them to thrive in certain neighborhoods. There are those students that are going to be successful under any amount of life drama.

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

Yes Catholic Schools have to pick and chose because they have a set limit of enrollment, but the catholic schools I go to takes kids from the inner city who have been taken from their families because the situation is really bad. These kids get the best education for basically free. What I want to know is why these kids do so well in these private schools but put them in a public school and they are the bottom of their class?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Catholic schools pick and choose because they can. Therefore, they can pick and choose whom will be successful and discard anyone that they believe will not be. They will expel kids just as quickly and easily as a public school. Don't kid yourself.

"but the catholic schools I go to takes kids from the inner city who have been taken from their families" Prove it. Show me documentation that wards of the state in Illinois attend Catholic schools.

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

The whole Idea that they pick and chose because they can is false, they do it because they have to. The School I attend is alittle over 2000 (500 a grade). We average 1000 test takers on the entrance exam, now we don't have the facilities to take all 1000 of them so we have to cut some. The most logical way is take those who score the best on the exam, which I must say is not a hard test. With those 1000 only about 700 are really interested in going. We accept the top 600 with 50 kids wait listed. We expect at max 550 will accept so we have an freshman class of a little over 500 each year. By senior year we have lost 50 kids for Behavior, moves or for failing so that others will have a chance to excel and get a great education. I watch kids get escorted out by the deans about once a month, in fact we just lost 5 freshman girls for drinking during school, Very dumb.

Now there is something very important to understand about this school. The head of Google Chicago hired all his high school buddies, A long list of CEO attends this school. If you go to this school you can get into any Catholic College so long as your grades are not awful. This high school literally prepares the future leaders of the world, a diploma from here is a golden ticket.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

No, it isn't false. You see what you don't get is that the public schools do not have the option of picking and choosing. They don't have the option of saying.......your kid cannot attend because he/she has been diagnosed as bipolar. Or your kid cannot attend because he/she is learning disabled or intellectually disabled or the IEP reads.......lift a pencil from one side of the desk and put it on the other side of the desk. It isn't an option.

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

The school cannot dismiss kids if they have mental issues. Trust me the kids I go to school with are by no means mentally sane. Most people don't realize this but wealthy children commit the most suicides they suffer from a lot of mental issues. We do not discriminate against those with learning disabilities, most parents just chose not to send their kids here, but we do have kids with learning disabilities.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Residential Services Children generally enter the program between the ages of 10 and 14, and live in our home through graduation from high school. Placement in our program is voluntary on the part of the child and his/her parent(s) or guardian, and the program facilitates regular contacts and counseling, where appropriate, with the child's family.

The Boys Hope Girls Hope residential program offers: Education in first-rate elementary and secondary schools Family-like homes focusing on moral and spiritual development Professional live-in counselors who provide structure, guidance and nurturing Room, board, tuition and clothing/personal needs allowance Medical, dental and optical services Professional therapeutic counseling (if needed) Summer athletic and enrichment programs Extended social services for program graduates College Support and After-Care Services All children admitted into Boys Hope Girls Hope receive after-care services designed to meet their individual needs upon completion of our residential program, usually at the time of high school graduation.They include: Financial assistance for college tuition, books, room and board Emotional support and mentoring while on campus Temporary housing at Boys Hope Girls Hope during college breaks Assistance in securing internships and employment Follow-up contact to assess a child's reintegration into the family and community Extension of counseling services where needed Support and guidance for the primary caregiver Sharing of assessment materials with other agencies serving the child or family Family Services Although Boys Hope Girls Hope is not a traditional family services agency, many parents and guardians of the children in our program benefit from services such as information on and referral to community resources, parenting guidance, crisis intervention and informal counseling

What is the mission of Boys Hope Girls Hope?

Boys Hope Girls Hope helps academically capable and motivated children-in-need to meet their full potential and become men and women for others by providing value-centered, family-like homes, opportunities and education through college. http://www.boyshopegirlshope.org/About/FAQs.aspx

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

I personally attend a Jesuit school in the northern suburb of Chicago. There is this program called Boys for Hope. In the program they take inner city kids from their parents where the family situation is far from ideal. I have never asked where they are originally from , I don't think they really want to talk about it. I can't really find documentation as I do not have access to those files.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Honey, that's a placement facility, yeah? This is not even close to a regular educational environment. The kids are referred to this facility and they do not have severe behavior or mental health issues and no cognitive limitations. They live in group homes with 24 hour supervision.

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

We are not talking about kids with mental issues. These are kids that if were they left in their environment they would become criminals, or drop outs. What are you talking about regular education? Clearly your "regular" education does not work. Yes they live in group homes where supervisors actually care about them and their future.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

The term is at-risk. We are talking about them. Clearly, it doesn't work because you cannot seem to grasp the concept that those children do attend the public schools. Again, you pick and choose and call that success. I call bullshit.

If the kid has been removed at home, the only reason that he/she has been accepted in that type of a residential facility is because they are the least likely to run and to "act out" from a behavioral/mental problem.

[-] 0 points by B76RT (-357) 2 years ago

different standards. higher expectations.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

coudn't find the video ... here's a similar transcript

Tupac Shakurs idea on Education

tupac came up with this idea at the age of seventeen and i find it very intersting and my views also follow in the same direction. He said that he thought that in elementary we should be taught all of math all of english all of the basic classes that take us 12 years of school to learn. and use those remaining 7 years to teach life. To teach what we will actually see on the streets and in everyday life when we start it. Like job discrimination , sexism , drugs, drug dealers , police, police burtality. gang fights. We should cover every possible aspect of life and what there most likely to come in contact with. and let them know how they can handle those situations in a positvie way for themselves.. . And this is where we need to come up and take a stand in my opinion. In my eyes i see nothing being done to direct society into a good situation. where we can really start learing and understanding. It seems to me that some aspects of society are more aimed at keeping racism and things like that alive more than stopping it. But im not saying i see in only that view because i see alot of the positive aspects that are going on also. Im writting this to give inspiration. Inspiration to express your thoughts and opinions to people to better the world wide understandment. A growing acceptence world wide. And i ask instead of getting mad and reacting in a way thats going to have a more negative result against what a person said or has done, that you think it over first and try and come to an understanding of opinions. to grow as a society I believe acceptence is a huge factor.

http://gwwww.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm241881.html?t=Discussion

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I'd have to agree with you and Tupac. High schools are, at best, glorified babysitters, and at worst they are popularity contests. A job and stomping grounds are better educational tools than team spirit on the school grounds.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

If public schools are failing, find the fault in the system, repair it or replace it, but don't ever give up on the children.

[-] 1 points by incomeforall (64) 2 years ago

Disband the NEA. Merit based promotions and retentions. Disband the NEA. Knowledge based curriculum. Teach Economics from grade 1 up. Disband the NEA Local control. Make the NEA illegal.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Here's an example to consider as a part of the problem: Yesterday a HS teacher in a school district near my home was suspended from work. The teacher was attemping to break up a fight between two girls and one of the girls was shoved into the wall in the process. The next time something like this happens does anyone think a teacher will be willing to step in the middle of a fight to break it up? Where will the safety and well being of teachers and students go from here?

Comedian/talk show host Bill Maher said recently on his program that "When I was a child, there was no daylight between parent and teacher. Now the gap is so wide you could drive a truck through it." Parents tend to defend their child and don't understand the idea of uniting with teachers for the betterment of their child.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Actually, they haven't been able to do much for a good decade. That's why they are relying on the cops in schools.

Some still make attempts. Some go overboard. Some suffer no repercussions for going to far.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

You know how kids are. They find a weakness and attack it. There certainly are instances of teachers going too far with discipline and the like. Actual physical harm done to students.

Cops in schools can and may well have already been abusive in many cases. When they can no longer do the job of keeping order in schools what then? (he asked rhetorically)

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

It has to be taken on a case by case basis. That has been the problem with Zero Tolerance. Once upon a time, if you went to school and encountered a bully you dealt with them. You can't do that anymore. Now, you have kids that try to do the right thing and go to administration and it isn't dealt with.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yes there are definitely good teachers being hurt by protective parents. And the children are running wild. We need to protect kids and teachers and we need to put diciplen back into the system.

Do we need to invest in video surveillance? Or do teachers need to travel in groups?

[-] 1 points by RedSkyMorning (220) 2 years ago

What's better about Catholic school? Discipline is built in from the time you start attending. We learned to walk in lines, call teachers "ma'am and sir," help with the chores of the schools, and dress nicely. You learn respect. When you are older, you no longer call the teachers ma'am and sir. They listen to your problems and even if you get in trouble, you are allowed to argue your case. You learn responsibility. As an older (middle school) child, you are assigned chores to watch over the younger children and you get in trouble if you do not break up fights or know what happened when a child gets hurt playing. You help them to the bathroom during school events and keep them focused during church. You learn to take care of your school and help the nuns with their service mission (we had a food bank) whenever they needed it). We were also meted out communal punishments occasionally if our class ever antagonized a teacher, for example, which we did once. Creativity and self expression is allowed and encouraged-we are still allowed to play pranks on teachers and won't go to jail for writing dark poetry. Fairness and honor is upheld-that's why being in a fight won't automatically get you expelled as in public school if you are fighting for what is right. Teachers don't have to teach from strict lesson plans. they can also be creative. If they occasionally lose it and throw staplers at you (Lol, yeah) they don't automatically get fired.

These are the elements that public school lacks. No one asks "where's your hall pass" or stops you from buying a coke when you are 18 years old.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

title threads properly so these lost student can find what they're looking for

[-] 1 points by forourfutures (393) 2 years ago

It is as astonsihingly simple thing that when fundamental treason, murder, assasination are in control of society, and are secret or covertly positioned by media, that when a population of American citizens fails to read and apply the law of the land, the constitution, and correct the situation, make it lawfull, for whatever reason, that all chaos will ensue. Complaints of education are prempted.

I primarily refer to our first constitutional right, Article V.

For 100 years we have been denied this right by trickery and deceit by congress.

The entire dilema of education is prempted in the economy created. Law and Media is the key for the people defending the constitution by using it with free speech. Education will fix itself in that environment.

[-] 1 points by rbe (687) 2 years ago

There's probably 100s of reasons why education sucks in the US, but the main reason is our culture. We have a very anti-education culture. Some schools turn out gang members while at the same time turning out doctors, so I don't think the schools are to blame. I went to one of the worst public schools in the country, and I can tell you that the problem was the students.

[-] 1 points by toukarin (488) 2 years ago

Sigh. Another public school system bashing thread?

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=3781

Article talks about how charter schools subsidized by private foundations have not had much success either.

The problem is not public schooling, or their infrastructure. It is poverty.

Poor parents, who are usually also not well educated tend to be unable to provide for their children and are statistically more likely to be involved in crime.

Alcohol and drug abuse, violent behavior, crime or simply an acceptance of the status quo make them unlikely to have the motivation for pursuing success. Children see this in their formative years and tend to absorb it.

The children brought up in such an environment simply do not know what it might mean for them if they actually went to school and made an effort because they have never seen an example of such behavior in their personal life.

Lets put it this way. If you were brought up in a dark cave, not seeing light for your entire childhood and adolescence. not even being in contact with someone who has seen the light. What would your reaction be when someone told you to step out into the sunlight?

Fear? Derision? Disdain? Anger perhaps?

Also charter schools have one major advantage over public schools when it comes to making their numbers look good. They have the option of simply tossing out anyone who they feel is 'not worth it.'

Put enough frustrated, misunderstood, underprivileged, undereducated and unloved kids in a classroom together and things are bound to get nasty. Does not matter if its a million dollar facility offering the best of education or a tin hut with a crazed voodoo practicioner.

[-] 1 points by incomeforall (64) 2 years ago

How much education do government drones actually need? Our policy is to teach that the game in America is rigged, there is no chance of success so what is the point of trying?

We are teaching that dependence on government is preferable to personal independence and lowering educational product is paramount in creating this kind of dependence.

Educated people are hard to control!

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 2 years ago

1) Reflects a mental health care problem created by TV. The fact we do not have competent mental health care is due to courts supporting the malpractice of municipal mental health care which has evaded state laws (with court complicity) requiring they work with the public to develop effective mental health care.

2) Religion created the structure of laws that televison corporations operate under. Academic law taught in universities promotes that corporations, government, religions and court can do no wrong.

Allowing the academics persecuted by universities that adhere to facts of history; archeology, anthropology and psychology; to assert their reasonable and logical positions upon education is the only way to recover its function. Oops, government and courts are in the way again.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

I'm no expert on this issue today even though I was a teacher years ago. But, I can share some very insightful lecture videos on the topic: Here's a TED lecture by Sir Ken Robinson who I deeply admire and respect. His books are wonderful and his video lectures are excellent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9LelXa3U_I&feature=relmfu

This website http://www.allkindsofminds.org/discover-all-kinds-of-minds was developed for a wonderful organization that trains teachers how to be better teachers by helping them understand how all children have unique pathways of learning and don't always fit into a one size fits all teaching model.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

I think Catholic schools offer "Classical Education", a system that's produced some of the best minds over the past couple thousand years. Some basic ideas are that, developmentally, all children pass through the grammar, logic and rhetoric stages, and are provided appropriate curriculum for each stage.

Classical education emphasizes sciences and languages, particularly classical languages like Latin and Greek. Students also often learn music, not only singing, but sometimes composition. This sort of education is great for college preparation, but should also include a path for the non-college bound student leading to an education in the trades.

The result produced would be something like one of our greatest Americans, Benjamin Franklin, who was a tradesman - a printer, who also provided himself with a classical education, including languages and sciences. He was a true Renaissance man who went on to make important contributions in government, publishing and the sciences.

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

I understand you completely. I attend a Jesuit school near Chicago and Grammar, Logic, and Writing are the huge focuses of the School. I also study Classical Latin.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

I see, are you in high school or college? What do you think of your school and its program? That is, do you like it?

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

High school. I think that it is an excellent program. It allows people the ability to challenge themselves and offers great support with much of the focus on you individually discovering how you learn. I very much enjoy my classes the content is usually interesting and the teachers are very good and very sociable. My only problem is that it allows some kids to simply slide by and does not challenge them. Over all great academics, sports, clubs, and community. I really like it there.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

That's good to here. There aren't many kids in public schools who really like their schools, so yours must be good.

What do you want to do when you become an adult?

Why did you get involved with OWS?

And why do you call yourself Bullmooseparty?

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

I don't know what I want to do when I get older, I'm some what thinking of the Air Force, but I don't know. I call myself the Bullmooseparty as reference to Teddy R. Who I think was a extremely interesting man.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Good luck with the Air Force, it can be pretty demanding from what I here.

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

Ya But I'm up to the challenge.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

I had always been interested in developing a series of posts on classical education for this site, do you want to help me get this information out there? We could research the literature online and condense it into a series of posts.

I'm interested in two educational tracks that share a common foundation. One would prepare people for white collar work, such as science, engineering, health, etc., the other would prepare people for trades, for which there is a high demand and an increasing demand.

These two tracks would share a foundation in grammar, logic and rhetoric, preparing the students to function effectively as citizens and to interact with each other in the management of work as well as society.

Both tracks would receive equal respect and equal pay, considering that good tradesmen often make $50K and up these days. The model would be Benjamin Franklin, who was both a tradesman - a printer, as well as a scientist and political philosopher.

[-] 1 points by shield (222) 2 years ago

Stop Federal funding for them and reduce tax rate proportionally.

Let's suppose that we are being taxed to support the public school system. It's an inaccurate supposition but let's pretend that it is correct. This would mean that the Federal Government has determined how much money it will need to support a public school system across the country, calculated how much money and what types of institutions it will need, and tries to accumulate that income through taxation.

One of two things would be true. Either what the IRS is pulling in through taxes is not actually enough to support a public school system, in which case taxes will need to be increased, or the mechanism by which that money is spent is not fit to produce the results the people of this country desire. Given that the mechanism is a centralized board which hands down standards and procedures to the local boards, who then apply them to their districts, either that central board will need to be abolished and the local boards will need to be left free to make their own decisions or the main board needs to become more democratic. The problem with the latter option is that what one community desires for their school system will not be what another community desires for theirs.

The abolition of the central board would free the local boards to set the standards for their own communities. This would eliminate the need to collect taxes at a national level for the funding of a central education board. This would bring the people of this nation closer to having control over their children's education, which is an extremely important step in regaining our ability to make our own decisions regarding our lives.

If the central education board were eliminated, local boards would be free to determine their own methods of collecting revenue to run the schools of their districts and the people in those districts would have greater control over the content of their children's education.

I am absolutely against state-controlled tax-funded education systems but I know that many here are not. I think that this is a happy medium.

[-] 1 points by DieNachthexen (103) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Want to fix public schools? This is how:

  1. Organize like minded parents. Present a list of demands to your school district.
  2. Home schooling is the right of every parent in NY-tell the local school district you are going to home school your children if/when they tell you they can't meet your requests.
  3. Children have the right to use public school facilities (eg the library, sports facilities, etc) Advise the school district you plan on using their facilities.
  4. PROFIT!!!

School districts receive local, state and federal funds based upon the number of children in daily attendance. If those numbers drop, so do the funds.

If even 33% of the parents did this in any given school district in NYC, its guaranteed there would be results, and fast. Urban public schools, by their own admission, are producing graduates woefully ill-equipped to enter the current job market and/or succeed at a university. Schools need to support students, not vice-versa.

Parents have the power, they just need to use it.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Blame the parents

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[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

And therein lies the problem. You see, private and religious schools have the ability to do the one thing public schools cannot...expel a student for bad behavior or even suspected bad behavior. All of those students end up in public schools, thereby exacerbating the problem.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

You are wrong again.

Gee, never heard of Zero Tolerance? It's only been happening for the past 25 years. Are you familiar with the School-to-Prison Pipeline ?

How about this: Still Haven’t Shut Off the School-to-Prison Pipeline: Evaluating the Impact of Florida’s New Zero-Tolerance Law

You must have heard that in some areas they are finally starting to take a look at the ramifications. Please look at the Dorchester Case in Maryland. And Zero Tolerance in Colorado

[-] 1 points by RedSkyMorning (220) 2 years ago

Yup. I went both public and Catholic school. It's way easier to get expelled from public school. We had a handful of trouble-makers that were in Catholic school because they had been expelled from public school, in fact. Their misbehavior is handled by scary nuns and traditional after-school detention, cleaning duties, extra homework and being kicked off of extra-curriculars until they raised their grades and behaved. In public school, they use "in school suspension" which is basically a vacation from classes. They are supposed to be doing assignments but I went to the building once where it was located to use the computer there and no one was doing any assignments.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Actually, you can get tossed from a Catholic school just as quickly as you can from a public school. :/

[-] 1 points by RedSkyMorning (220) 2 years ago

I only know of one person who got expelled from Catholic school. I went for 9 years of my education. He pushed a girl off of a high cement wall she was sitting on for something she said. She fell backwards and cracked her head on the pavement and had to be rushed to the emergency room.

I know lots of people that have were expelled from public school. Atleast 30.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

http://samesexmarriagecounseling.net/?p=256

http://www.ctpost.com/highschool/article/Mike-Cardillo-High-school-athletes-should-beware-3260331.php

That isn't even touching the kids that were kicked out for bring brownies with marijuana in them.

[-] 1 points by RedSkyMorning (220) 2 years ago

News is meant to be sensational. It's not the average school. We even had a transvestite student at our Catholic high school, which did cause some controversy. She had to fight for the right to dress in men's clothes on church days and the right to use the men's bathroom, but after a few weeks into school, she was allowed that too and everyone adjusted. Plenty of lesbians attended and there was no crack down, forget a crack-down on the children of gay parents.

The class two years above us had random locker searches for drugs, because a lot of them did use drugs, but no one ever got expelled over it.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Right. They use a process of selection to begin with. They will receive no accolades for their inability to handle or deal with students of all levels.

[-] 1 points by RedSkyMorning (220) 2 years ago

I have no idea how that is a response to what I just said.

I just said our school adjusted to having a transvestite student. She was allowed to bring girls to school dances and treated as if she were a man in every way. That's pretty accomodating for a Catholic school. I don't believe a public school would have allowed her to use the men's restrooms, for example. This was only possible by the administration speaking with the boys and finding out if they were ok with it.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I think it's swell that your personal experience went well. Unfortunately, Catholic schools will receive no accolades for their inability to handle or deal with students of all levels. Catholic schools expelled students for having Lesbian parents in California, Colorado and Massachusetts.

[-] 0 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

I give you a super-highway to educational success and you insist on continuing down a dead end country road. Einstein had it right. You can't fix stupid. Now you can call me your favorite...a douche bag! That IS your end game, is it not?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Failing to address the issues again? I am shocked! SHOCKED!

[-] 0 points by JuanFenito (847) 2 years ago

Look, just because public education has never worked, doesn't mean it won't magically start working some day. Next thing I know, you'll tell me my investments in perpetual motion were wasted. Sheesh.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

lol! And the Devils triangle to you, too!

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

The attitudes of certain particular groups of students and parents in poor and inner-city schools is a part of the problem, but first of all that's not exactly insurmountable, and second of all that doesn then the question becomes "How can we change school systems and augment individual schools until they're capable of compensating for poor parenting and/or student apathy?" If we fail to ask that question, then we're basically accepting the status quo and writing off an entire swath of the population as ineducable.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I think you have it exactly right. I think furthermore, parents who send their children to parochial or private schools are greatly motivated to see their children succeed. Most likely they're paying school tax for public schools where they live AND over and above that, are paying tuition to the school their children attend. This is not to say that there aren't successful public school students and successful public school systems. There are motivated and good parents of children who attend public schools too.

I think that the failure of any school is the end result of long-term (multi-generational) failures in parenting. It would seem to me to be yet another symptom of a failure by many to fully realize what parenting entails and what kind of commitment raising a child demands if a child is to become a successful adult member of society.

Poorly behaved, undisciplined kids go to school and when teachers try to discipline them for their poor behavior, they're "taken to task" for doing so and oft times undermined in a sense. Year after year of these kinds of things are extremely demoralizing, I should think. Teaching then becomes "just a job" and we and up where we are.

In my extended family there are six teachers and two former teachers. The former teachers didn't retire. They didn't quit teaching for a higher paying job; they quit because they got "burnt out" from having to tolerate poorly behaved children whom they couldn't discipline. These teachers were verbally and physically abused by students.

Parents were called and were told that they needed to come to the school for meetings about the behavior of their children. Most never bothered to show up. Some of the ones who did insisted that their child would never do such a thing and that the teacher had to be lying.

These were teachers who'd only been teaching for a few years. To those who would blame teachers for the state of the public educational system I'd say you're not entirely wrong, but you're mostly wrong.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

this is a great topic... remember Tupac's speech on the problem's with out school's ? ... I think it fit's well here...

http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/public-schools-are-failing-horribly-what-should-we/#comment-643746

[-] 0 points by shield (222) 2 years ago

Abandon the (false) concept of "free" education. Stop putting responsibility for educating our children in the hands of some of the worst criminals in the world.

[-] 0 points by HoarFriday (27) 2 years ago

Please cease with common sense. It is not welcome amongst the mediocre minded m asses.

[-] 0 points by JuanFenito (847) 2 years ago

Why force them to do something they really don't want to do? Yeah. Right on. Next thing you know we won't have ANY rules. If the government can't force someone to attend educational classes, what CAN they do? The next thing I know you'll be telling me the government can't put people forcibly in internment camps or sterilize them. Look, people need to know the things they learn in public school, and it is our right to force them to learn them. End of discussion.

[-] 0 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

I spent my first 7 years in Catholic school. I went to first grade early as there was no kindergarten offered. I struggled the whole time and barely made B and C grades. My family then moved to another neighborhood and I was sent to a public school. Suddenly I was a genius! I got promoted to the 9th grade within 2 weeks and they were still teaching me things I already knew. The rest of my (public) schooling was a cake walk. I was bored as hell.

[-] 0 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

Let me understand you correctly. You had a difficult time in Catholic School, but when you went into public you were bumped up and still learning the same things? So you would suggest that public schools are less challenging than Catholic?

[-] 0 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

That was certainly the case when I was in school.

[-] 0 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

Homeschool if you want.

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[-] 0 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

end them, have kids learn on then internet and in life which is the greatest school of all

[-] 1 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

I agree that life is a great teacher.

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

School is useless

[-] 1 points by Bullmooseparty (21) from West Orange, NJ 2 years ago

No school is not useless. Where are you going to learn the atomic mass of an element, There are some things that you really can't learn out of classroom.

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago
  1. If some one had not learned that outside of school it would not be taught in school.

  2. school is forced labor without pay, i thought lincoln got rid of it

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion4 (70) 2 years ago

Stop allowing the liberal teachers unions from running the schools. In Wisconsin the teachers USED little children to chant at the state capital. Shameful liberal teachers using little kids that dont have a say in what they want.

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[-] 0 points by hedleymnn (14) 2 years ago

Get the unions out, the teachers are getting paid too much for doing nothing

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[-] -1 points by hedleymnn (14) 2 years ago

get rid of the stinkin unions

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

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[-] -1 points by hedleymnn (14) 2 years ago

GirlFriday No profile information, no life and no job

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I have a life and a job. Unlike your paid to troll ass.

[-] -1 points by mediaauditr (-88) 2 years ago

One strange development you should check out is in Obama's latest budget. In his budget, he removed the funding for the Washington DC school voucher program. Wash.DC public schools had a graduation rate of around 50%, at an average cost of $17,000 per child per year. Recently they began a voucher program, which the teacher unions were against. The program was wildly successful, the graduation rate is now 90% at a cost of $8,000 per child per year. Yet Obama ended funding for the program in his budget. Half the cost, twice as effective, and Obama stopped it to please the unions.

The teacher union leaders must be stopped. The union can remain, but its leadership is beyond repair

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Private schools can screen their students, accepting only those they deem better learners. The entire voucher system, only supplementing tuition at private schools, it self screening to begin with, leaving the most poor unable to participate in the program. OF COURSE their graduation rate is 90%. It says absolutely nothing about how they compare to public schools, which are not allowed by law, to pre-screen kids. The only thing the voucher system proved is that you can take money out of the public schools, leaving them more cash strapped and with a higher percentage of kids with problems, yet still falsely claim success.

[-] -1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

I guess pumping massive amounts of money into our schools doesn't work does it. Sort of like the stimulus - it didn't work either.

There is a school in Ga that is dumbing down its students. If they don't pass the test required to advance, they are given the opportunity to study the areas they faild in and take the test again

This time they are only tested on the subject matter that they didn't pass on when they took the original exam. Really smart way to go isn't it.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

WTF are you talking about?

It is standard education practice to help students in areas they were weak in, to help them learn more. It is called educating them. Where do you get the idea that being given an opportunity to the study in an areas in which you failed, and be retested in it to demonstrate whether you learned it better is dumbing anything down? It is, in fact, the opposite, requiring the student to study more and learn the subject better.

As for the stimulus, it created or saved a few million jobs by most counts, and it likely saved your ass.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

With regard to the "stimulus" saving my "ass". I don't think so. I have never depended on anyone to bail me out, pay my bill or get me a job.

The reason being is because I made sure I improved my job skills over time so that I was more valuable to my employer. As a result I have never been out of work and have always been able to support my family and pay my bills.

If I needed a job tomorrow I know I wouldn't have a problem getting one and it will be a good paying job without a college degree.

[-] -1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

The point is if you teach a person that if they don't make an effort to pass knowing that if they fail they can do a follow up how is that good when they go out in the real world to compete.

Our schools are now teaching that it's ok to fail or it's ok not to put your best effort forward and as a result we now have people entering the real world expecting the same kind of treatment and wondering why they can't get a job.

Competition is what breeds success not "well it's ok if you don't want to compete but we will let you enjoy the success anyway.

Making our younger generation stupid and dumbing down is what's ruining this country. And if you don't agree with me compare the students of the 60's to todays students - grade for grade and you will see a big difference in the success rate.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Your conclusions about retaking coursework and retesting in those areas where one is weak is standard education practice and has been for at least 50 years that I'm aware of. It does not teach that failure is OK. That lesson happens when the child is given a pass on being require to study more. It is the opposite of dumbing kids down. It is insisting that they learn the material.

Our schools are giving more homework than at any time in my lifetime. Researchers are saying it is too much, in fact. That doesn't send a message that it is OK to fail or neglect to put in your best effort. It is demanding more work that was required of the previous generation.

You point would have more weight if it was supported by facts. So far, it isn't.