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Forum Post: Paul Ryan and the Intellectual Wasteland of the Healthcare Debate

Posted 11 years ago on Sept. 12, 2012, 2:20 p.m. EST by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

By Bernard Harcourt

Where, as in the case of sickness and accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequences are as a rule weakened by the provision of assistance – where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks – the case for the state's helping to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong.

Surprisingly, those are the words of Friedrich Hayek, straight out of The Road to Serfdom. And I'm not pulling them out of context: Hayek firmly believed that the government should organize comprehensive systems of social insurance, including health care; should protect citizens against poverty and should ensure, for everyone, "the certainty of a given minimum of sustenance for all".

With vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan claiming that his ideas are inspired by Hayek and even handing out copies of The Road to Serfdom "to bring new staffers up to speed" – following the earlier highjacking of Hayek by Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh – it's time for some intellectual honesty.

Others have usefully begun to discuss the tension between Paul Ryan's politics and Hayek's thought, as well as the internal tensions between Hayek and Ryan's other guru, Ayn Rand. But here, for a moment, let's go back to the primary text, open our University of Chicago Press definitive edition of The Road to Serfdom and honestly read it in relation to the American healthcare debate.

'Austrian School' economist Friedrich Hayek. Photograph: AP By way of background, Hayek was adamant that the central economic function of government is to organize and administer markets in such a way as to promote and protect competition. His central focus was on the neutrality of government rules – or what he called (on p117), "the Rule of Law, in the sense of the rule of formal law, the absence of legal privileges of particular people designated by authority" – not the elimination of government rules:

"The liberal argument is in favor of making the best possible use of the forces of competition as a means of coordinating human efforts, not an argument for leaving things just as they are." (p85)

Hayek emphasized that it is a pure and simple – and highly misleading – mischaracterization of his own thought, and of liberal economic theory, to suggest that government should do nothing. "In no system that could be rationally defended would the state just do nothing", he stressed in The Road to Serfdom (p88).

In this sense, Hayek firmly believed that the notion of a "free market" is an illusion:

"The question whether the state should or should not 'act' or 'interfere' poses an altogether false alternative, and the term 'laissez faire' is a highly ambiguous and misleading description of the principles on which a liberal policy is based. Of course, every state must act and every action of the state interferes with something or other." (p118)

The key question for Hayek was whether the government rules are unbiased. Not that there be no rules, but that they be predictable and neutral – that they not favor the elites. So, for instance:

"[W]ith respect to most of the general and permanent rules which the state may establish with regard to production, such as building regulations or factory laws: these may be wise or unwise in the particular instance, but they do not conflict with liberal principles so long as they are intended to be permanent and are not used to favor or harm particular people." (p118)

Hayek's general theory of government was complex, and I am by no means a defender or a disciple. Personally, I believe that Hayek irrationally clung to a notion of natural order – what he called "spontaneous order" – that blinded him to the humanly-constructed nature of the wealth distributions that occur under conditions that he called "competitive". As a result, Hayek himself fell in the cold war trap, instead of working out the full implications of his own economic theory. Hayek made naturalistic assumptions in the economic realm – about the naturalness of skill and talent, and about natural order – that belong in churches and temples, not in political economy.

But one thing is clear: as applied to the more specific issue of healthcare, Hayek favored a robust notion of security that included "security against severe physical privation" and "the certainty of a given minimum of sustenance for all" (p147). Hayek was adamant about this. "There is no reason why in a society which has reached the general level of wealth which ours has attained," Hayek wrote, on the next page. "[This] kind of security should not be guaranteed to all without endangering general freedom." He continued, "there can be no doubt that some minimum of food, shelter, and clothing, sufficient to preserve health and the capacity to work, can be assured to everybody." And for Hayek, this extended to healthcare:

"Nor is there any reason why the state should not assist the individuals in providing for those common hazards of life against which, because of their uncertainty, few individuals can make adequate provision."

Hayek recognized that the provision of healthcare is complex and that we may disagree as to the exact structure of the assistance necessary:

"But there is no incompatibility in principle between the state's providing greater security in this way and the preservation of individual freedom." (p148)

Hayek did not subscribe, in his own words, to a "dogmatic laissez faire attitude" (p85). He believed in rules "to limit working hours or to require certain sanitary arrangements", and believed they were "fully compatible with the preservation of competition" (p86). He added on the next page:

"Nor is the preservation of competition incompatible with an extensive system of social services – so long as the organization of these services is not designed in such a way as to make competition ineffective over wide fields."

I could go on, but I sense you've gotten my point by now. It's important to read a thinker like Friedrich Hayek closely and honestly – never to idolize, nor to simplify and certainly never to highjack. Equally important, I believe, is to keep a critical perspective, to identify their hidden assumptions, to challenge them when they take a leap of faith. There would be a lot more to say about that and much to contest in Hayek – but it would have to start, at a minimum, from an honest and close reading.

For now, I propose that we close with another interesting passage:

"Wherever communal action can mitigate disasters against which the individual can neither attempt to guard himself nor make provision for the consequences, such communal action should undoubtedly be taken." (p148)

I hope that staffers from both presidential campaigns will ponder those words. It would actually militate in favor of more universal healthcare than the Affordable Health Care Act now provides.




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[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23771) 11 years ago

That is very interesting, but I'm not sure what to take away from it. I think many on the right today adhere to Mises as well, and he has a different, more free market take on healthcare and is far less paternalistic.

Ryan's understanding of economics is shallow and why anyone turns to him for his thoughts on the subject is beyond me.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

I'm not sure what you are getting at here, nor what the hell a libe(R)tarian like Hayek has to do with it, but since you brought up the subject, here's some reality on that whole ACA "debate".

I would recommend that anyone who wold like some actual knowledge on the subject, should read Potters book, but the web site also provides more up to date info.


[-] 2 points by Buttercup (1067) 11 years ago

Ryan - cherry picks and uses Hayek as cover for his life's work being based on a piece of third rate hack fiction. Funny as hell if the man weren't the legitimate intellectual leader of the Republican Party.

Pardon my putting 'intellect' and 'Republican Party' in the same sentence.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

The Romoney-Ryan-Randian 'Austrian Economics' Delusions are their defining aspect, in my opinion.

Any "Austrian School Economics" that doesn't reference 'Carl Menger' is a sort of Cultic Fraud !!! Von Mises, Hayek and onto Chicago School, Freidman BS - are all a 'weak foundations but huge theoretical super-structure', pseudo-intellectual, house of cards without Carl Menger's ideas about 'sound money' !! WTF 'Economic Theory' can anyone really have without some critique of 'The Theory of Money', 'ffs'?

Finally, on the matter of 'Social Security' - some words by Senator Bernie Sanders :

Thanx 'PK' for the interesting post & link - from my newspaper of choice ;-)

fiat lux ...

[-] -2 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

Still fighting hard for Partisan Powers? Are you taking a break from your Truther duties with Conspiracy Crusaders. And no, this is not trashy. Just someone who believes in him and OWS.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

Yes, you are 'Trashy' or you're engaging in 'Illogical Fellatio', with him, lol ! For you to lie is as easy as it would be for the rest of us to drink a glass of water !! You give yourself away every time because you you talk shit as you are full of it & have your clever but vacuous head, jammed so far up your (x) !!!

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] -1 points by Buttercup (1067) 11 years ago

Is this how you like to spend you time? Running around with Thrashy this and Trashy that? For God's sake move on. Accusing every other new person around here of being something or another. It's stupid and boring. Move it along.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

Nope & you know it 'April'. He came 'lucking' for me here & he found me too. Now he needs you to start wading in. Talk about PK's 'forum-post; - that is what is important or you "move it along". I have always liked your more substantive comments, so please don't become "stupid and boring". You aspire to be his 'moll' at the risk of your own integrity.

verb. sat. sap. ...

[-] -1 points by Buttercup (1067) 11 years ago

Oh no you don't. You don't get to twist this around. Pointing out 'stupid and boring' is not the same as behaving that way.

'I have always liked your more substantive comments'. I could same the same for you. That's the point.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

You must know by now that I have seldom ducked a chance to slap him and I ain't starting now despite 'your' boredom or opinions on the matter. I liked your comment at the top & voted accordingly, however re. your sudden petulance immediately above - 'move it along' & thus, by 'Chumbawamba' :

et ne quid nimis ...

[-] -2 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

I am not trashy. I am a friend of Odin. I do believe trashy is right on many things.

Do you realize who you support? This guy VQkag2 who goes around the forum sowing division by insulting everybody like a child. Is that your level of intellect. Instead of working as a bodyguard for Partisan Powers and protecting the democrats of this forum, you should join The Crew For OWS Factuality AKA Bridge To The Ground.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

'marThur' : I commented on 'PK's forum post because I l think that this is an important matter which ties in two important themes ('Austrian Economics' & Social Security) ; due to the article and link being from my paper of choice which I have been reading for well over half my life and because I like PK's style and his politics. Note that 'P word and how I use it and absorb and realise why you fear that word so much.

'VQkag' is his own person, who speaks his 'truths' as he sees them - whereas you are really only a Mercenary Shill. I may not agree with lots that 'VQ' says & I only see what I read which is probably only a fraction of what he writes. He has more integrity than you'll ever have or realise you don't have !!!

temet nosce ...

[-] -2 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

You always appear when VQkag2 attacks other people to support his attacks. You act as his bodyguard, and as the bodyguard of the other members of Partisan Powers. That is, when you aren't busy being the mini boss and Truther for Conspiracy Crusaders.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

'm@rThur' : Your pant(ie)s are on fire ... again & by 'Chumbawamba' ...

multum in parvo ...

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Trashy is a racist homophobe! You support him! You support that! Shadz think you are trashy!

I believe Shadz because shadz has integrity and honor! You are dishonest and have no integrity!

Go crawl under the rock you slimed out of.

[-] -2 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

Trashy is a racist homophob!

Care to back that up?

Shadz66 only acts as your bodyguard here because he has no integrity. If he did he would not support your childish name calling used to sow division. If he cared about OWS he would not be the bodyguard for Partisan Powers and would not be the mini boss and Truther for Conspiracy Crusaders.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

'marThur' : Talking outta your (x) yet again !!! I only read the minority of threads here and IF you really consider me a "bodyguard" then you should know that YOU are The Only 'body' that I 'guard' against !! You described me once as your "nemesis" - and it was the truest word you ever said on this forum !

You are an unconscionable bully ; 'dissension-monkey' ; 'wedge-issue-pusher' ; 'right-wing plant' ; 'pro-Corporate-stooge' and an aspirant subverter. You fail everyday despite all the 'hard work and study' you boast of having done. Pretty sad really - for your parents, n'est ce pas ?

cave - anguis in herba ....

[-] -3 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

The only thing you do here is protect VQkag2 and the other members of Partisan Powers, and act as a mini boss and Truther for Conspiracy Crusaders. You should shape up and start working for OWS: join The Crew For OWS Factuality AKA Bridge To The Ground.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

This OWS site already has a unity with the supporters on the street. What you are doing is not building unity.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

I went to 2 meetings wedns! So there! That was on the street.!

[-] -2 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

Hey look, the scribe to the president has arrived. The whole of Partisan Powers is almost here.

You think you and VQkag2 are building unity? Read his comments, then meditate on all the people you have banned simply because they don't agree with your ideas.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23771) 11 years ago

Why do you complain about being banned when all you do is try to silence others? Hypocrite!

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

R U dropping your act now? The forum bans - it is divisive people like you who prompt the moderators to impose a ban.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

'T' is fast losing his shape by not taking his meds & daddy and mummy will have to come and bail him out of His Darkness ... yet again !!! Parenting ... it's a 'life sentence' - apparently !! LOL !

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

I think if his folks are sane that they have probably dreamed of retroactive birth control. Probably deny even knowing who he is to the rest of their family.

[-] -1 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

We know you are a moderator DKAtoday. You ban Odin, April, Thrasymaque, and soon you will ban hchc for what? For disagreeing with you.

Plus, you attack Odin's family with the most gruesome and vile statements. You should be ashamed. Go write some letters to the president.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

That comment about attacking Odin's family is a lie as is your whole comment. Has April been banned(?) - what did trashy's female side do? Odin got his butt booted by the system owner jart and that being so - I am surprised he does not get booted every time he shows up again. hchc is still here playing his games. "YOU" should be ashamed. Why don't you talk about OTS's upcoming plans for the aniversary - why don't you add your support to the other street groups? Click on the news button and you will find the current listing of recent street action posts. Never see Odin or trashy or hchc or you tking part in those posts - you just continue trashy's and Odin's divisive campaign.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 11 years ago

I'm not playing any games dude. The system is broken, the results of the election are not going to reverse things.

It takes people saying fuck it, Im not playing this game anymore. I want change and I want it now.

End the wars. End the banking cartel. End the money in poltics.

The only way we get those three things is through people rising up and creating their own thing.

If that is playing games, then I will play all day long.

PS- most of the internet announcements on DAs are done via facebook

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

I agree with this comment 100% & am glad to echo the sentiments with 'The Voices Of East Harlem' &

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] -2 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

Then join us to be hchc's sidekick. Your time as the bodyguard for Partisan Powers is up.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

TCH ; Tch ; tch - your entreaties are sad, beyond amusing and well past 'desperate' too, lol.

I don't do "sidekick" and I don't believe 'hchc' does either.

ad iudicium ...

[-] -3 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

It's great to see you agreeing with a member of Crew For OWS Factuality AKA Bridge To The Ground. You're on the right track.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

'm@rThur' : I have always had much respect for 'hchc' as his positions have been cogent and long held (look at his 'points', lol) ... unlike you and your devious and duplicitous ; manipulative and mendacious - wishy, washy whisperings !! When 'hchc' speaks, agree or not - I listen and consider.

'multum in parvo' et 'ne quid nimis' ...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

What's wrong the bridge we have? Other than the fact that you drive them from the lists?

It's not wide enough? You don't like the pavement?

If you want to "build" another one. I guess that's fine, but still, why not use the one that's already built?

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 11 years ago

Bircher boy? Little pet names for the right? And libertarians?

This is like arguing with a five year old.

Thanks for turning the forum into amatuer hour as usual. Go find someone else to attack, Im going back to work.

Later loser.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

G' bye now...............:) Have a nice day..................:)

Say hi to the Kochs for me.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 11 years ago

Here ya go, where were you? I didnt see you here... http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/29/tampa-protestors-decry-voter-fraud-laws-passed-in-florida-and-other-states.html

I was at this one too, but didnt see you. Made sure to call out Bill Nelson for supporting Indef Detention as well, and reminded everyone to stop relying on criminals to monitor criminals...


You're a hypocrite, or you would be out doing MORE than I am. And you arent. And while some say what we do is all in vain, that the machine is too big to stop, I dont care. Idont mind losing as long as there was a fight. Thats me. And what do you do? You sit your ass behind a computer and yell at others about shit you have no idea about, and are removed by over a thousand miles.

Stay off my threads, you are useless to change, your attacking brings nothing, and everyone is getting sick of people typing what this is while people are actually using sweat and treasure to get something going.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

Good, at least you can find google. To bad it took me to help you find it.

Your thread???? LOL

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 11 years ago

Anything happening in Michigan Shooz? Want me to find something for you to do? I go to actions here. Maybe you should get off your ass and do the same, hypocrite.

Stop worrying about Fl. Lots of good people are doing good things here. Its just our gov is out his mind.

Stop hating on OT, stop hating on people who are doing their best, and maybe, for ONCE, you can make something happen in your neighborhood. Hypocrite.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

No worries bircher boy.

You wouldn't care anyway. Even Snyder knew that we are not as apathetic as Florida. The ALEC style voter purges failed, though they fucks still tried.



Unlike you, I'm not apathetic.

Truth is hard, but you are either apathetic about Florida or in full agreement with it's bigotry.

You're "choice", son.

You can admit that your Governor is out of his mind, yet you spend your days going....................Look! .....over there!......Obama!!!

That's lazy.

That's chicken shit.

Get off you're high horse and back those fighting the purges.

On your posted link to birchers?

If you are innocent on that score, then you are also easily misled by propaganda, and unable to recognize it.

That would make you the hypocrite.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 11 years ago

Get a life.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

I have one thanks.

You should do the same, and while you are at it, pull your head out of your ass and take a look around at the Florida you helped create.

A cesspool created with the help of your apathy, I might add.......

Hypocrite, bircher.


[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

I am not talking about facebook - I was pointing to this sites announcements.

[-] -2 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

The only people being divisive here are those in Partisan Powers.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

This is an absolutely false statement.................

Odin his self has even threatened me with being ostracized.

As thrasy attempted to do to many. All the while serving his own agenda, lying about his behavior, and just generally being an ass.

It is telling to me. that your first post here, is off topic and an attempt to stir up the partisanship that folks like to bitch incessantly about.

You're not exactly driving the conversation back to the OT.

[-] -3 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

This is not my first post. Not by a long shot. Get informed before passing false information.


[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 years ago

Specious and selective deceptions will NOT stand, Ergo, readers should consider these comments & (in response to) Your Many Comments on just these two threads :

Consider : It is always easy to undermine that which is baseless and has with weak foundations.

verb. sat. sap. ...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

I'm talking about in this thread, so don't try and "play" me.

You posted here only to stir that very partisanship...............It's all you've donehere(in this thread).

So now that we are off topic anyway.

How about the "bridge to the ground?"

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Here trashy hated this post: http://occupywallst.org/forum/partisan/

[-] -2 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

So - R U Odin's female side? As U R not martha from OTS I mean - and Odin seem's to have picked up other habits from trashy - so I am just curious - R U another habit of trashy's that Odin is now emulating?

I'm not Odin, nor trashy. I'm martha. I'm an OWS anarchist and I help organize OTS events. You should come to an OWS protest. You might be surprised, but we don't write letters to the president.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

U R funny - U go around picking fights with people on trashy's agenda - U spend no time whatsoever on promoting OTS or other Occupy affinity street groups - U just pick on people that trashy has a problem with - like the little known Renneye - I mean little known in that she does not make a lot of posts and does not make a high rate of comments - but U just zeroed in on her - and with such a knowledgeable attack on a past issue. No U R not martha from OTS.

[-] -1 points by marthafromOTS (47) 27 minutes ago

Toads are behind this? You mean Reptilian Overloards? Half toad half men? The ones that control Svali? Is OWS still using Illuminati symbols like you once wrote about?

↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

I wonder how long the mods are gonna let U play your attack games before U get the boot - again?

[-] -2 points by marthafromOTS (-78) 11 years ago

As he should. It's a lame coverup for Partisan Powers who are only here to push for Obama. Those people have no integrity, they should go work for the democrat party where they belong.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

So - R U Odin's female side? As U R not martha from OTS I mean - and Odin seem's to have picked up other habits from trashy - so I am just curious - R U another habit of trashy's that Odin is now emulating?

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Please. You are clearly out of touch with reality. just give it up!

I have no interest in conversing with such a low life.

Take your racist, homophobe crap to someone else.

Stop harassing me!

[-] 1 points by DouglasAdams (208) 11 years ago

American healthcare cost per capita is more than twice as high as the world average, but American life expectancy ranks no higher than 34th place. American healthcare is not a free market. There are rules that favor the elites and stifle normal competition.

Life Expectancy CNN


Why are healthcare costs so high in USA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgxGOOZBzvg

Consider US spends $2 trillion per year, which is twice as high per capita as the worldwide average, price controls that bring real competition to the healthcare sector should free $1 trillion per year.

Pursuing this goal is in the nation's best interest. Healthcare in the United States has been too profitable.

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 11 years ago

This is true and it will only get worse if the government assumes the role.

[-] 2 points by DouglasAdams (208) 11 years ago

Someone like FDR would nationalize the healthcare system. This would introduce price controls that are competitve with worldwide average per capita. Since we've achieved 34th place by spending twice as much there is an incentive to cut our costs in half.

Would the private healthcare sectorn accept half the pay they were getting before nationalization?

We the people are entitled to lower costs, if not the lowest healthcare costs.

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 11 years ago

I don't buy into the Michael Moore perspective. I think our medical field and its practitioners are both comparatively capable and well advanced; the problem is that it is unaffordable. I would be more amenable to socialized care if it a) could be freely provided to all Americans indefinitely (and only Americans) and b) we were not so severely in debt. We can't do anything until we address the special interest frivolous spending, the corruption, and the debt which continuously increases and is attached in leaps and bounds to the ever decreasing ranks of the tax payer. This is where a flat tax comes in - have everyone in America contribute 75% of everything they own or acquire over the next ten years; and maybe we'll see some progress. But don't count on it because government is corrupt, there will never be enough. Eventually we're going belly up - without healthcare.

[-] 1 points by DouglasAdams (208) 11 years ago

Why is the USA paying twice the world average for healthcare per capita and only achieving rankings in the 30s?

"Medicare Fraud Strike Force operations in seven cities have led to charges against 91 individuals – including doctors, nurses and other licensed medical professionals – for their alleged participation in Medicare fraud schemes involving approximately $429.2 million in false billing, Attorney General Eric Holder and Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary Kathleen Sebelius announced today."

Medicare Fraud Strike Force


And Romney wants a smaller government?

[-] 0 points by oneandone (-67) 11 years ago

Yea...How DARE Ryan ask that the unsustainable healthcare system we have, actually be paid for.

[-] -1 points by podman73 (-652) 11 years ago

im sorry if do not want the same thevies that cant balance a budget and steal from all of us to run my health care. D and R will fuck it up like they do everything they touch, so dont except me to be happy i am now forced to get healthcare from these morns.

[-] 1 points by TheRoot (305) from New York, NY 11 years ago

Hear, hear.