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Forum Post: OWS targeted by FBI, use of snipers

Posted 1 year ago on Dec. 26, 2012, 3:23 p.m. EST by ivyquinn (167)
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[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

We can fight govt spies. Here is a court ruling thay indicates some judges find in the peoples favor.


[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

FEAR! FEAR! FEAR! Now go away and be a good little serf, like your dady was.

[-] -1 points by ivyquinn (167) 1 year ago

this post is counter productive.

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

You're right, this post was counter productive.

[-] 0 points by ivyquinn (167) 1 year ago

-.- Awe. Someone is thinking again huh!

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13629) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

It isn't clear due to redaction, but it appears to me to be entirely possible the sniper issue discussed on page 61 [linked on left of the pdf document - "Sniper attacks against protestors in Houston...if deemed necessary."] may have been planned by an outside group, which may or may not have been associated with Homeland Security. The plan was to target the OWS leadership with suppressed sniper rifles.

In Texas.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the FBI of today could either condone or participate in such an operation - but there may be a high degree of elasticity between regional offices, I don't know. What I mean is that I would expect that in a state like Texas you would find the SAC tended to reflect the thinking of the local political establishment to a high degree - this due to the ability of influencial members of a given society to shape beauracracy to suit their perceived needs.

Of course, if someone claimed they expected a high degree of violence to issue from among the OWS protesters, then you can completely toss the above expectations.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Oh, I think they probably knew there would not be violence -- but that they wanted to get everyone they possibly could to THINK violence might happen so local, state and federal authorities (and the public) would be more likely to think the "shut down" of camps etc was "unavoidable".

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

The fact that governments decided it was in the best interest to shut down places where things could be discussed is very telling.

The last thing they want are everyday people congregating and figuring out the problems and solutions on their own. The very stuff that is democracy.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Yup. Hence the riot police and heavy armament when dealing with nonviolent protesters. Fascinating how those images in America looked to people around the world.... We lost some serious credibility there while we were proclaiming others should allow peaceful protest. Total fucking bullshit and it's starting to show. Man does this piss me off. I can't believe freedom loving Americans weren't enraged. I can't believe they bought the rather second rate propaganda.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Unfortunately the majority of people will soak up whatever the MSM tells them.

I cant tell you how many people have told me that it was nothing but a bunhc of spoiled kids that want everything for free. Then I start explaining what Wall St and the Fed has been doing, and hows its a mix of communists/socialists/anarchists/libertarians all talking about the issues, and then they are impressed.

No leaders made it very hard to get any kind of streamlined messaging out there, because someone has to be he one announcing it at press conferences or doing the interviews. We kind of just let the media paint us however they wanted, with no counter effort.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Can you send me a synopsis some time of what you say to regular folks that seems to sink in. When you encounter someone who bought the "a bunch of freeloaders" propaganda, what exactly do you say to them? I just don't know where to start when I encounter this. I think it is pretty damn important to be reaching out to a broader audience.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

When you start with things like quantitative easing, and the bailouts, and now the QE Eternity, it makes it hard to go against it.

I try not to go into absolutes too much, because then you start to tread into the same MSM nonsense.

Like with education, no one can disagree it sucks. High school is a freakin joke. And no one can disagree that all these college kids are going into a fucked up situation. So something has to be done. If they have something to say, I ask them to come down.

Of course then they show up for a GA and get to listen to 3 hours of debate on how a GA should be carried out, over and over, and say to hell with this haha.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well, we gotta fix at if we want this to grow. How do we fix that with GA's?

I like your approach for folks who think Occupiers are freeloaders by the way.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

When the press takes the most extreme soundbits and plays them on FOx, and then MSNBC plays all those declaring Obama is the man, it makes it tough to compete for the average person who is sick of it all.

Its such a messy process, and anyone can bring up anything, and then you run into whether GAs are for announcements and workgroup notices, or should they be used as general meetings too...etc etc etc....

All I know is that when someone comes by to see things, and all they see is semi-chaos as far as organizing goes, its immediately a turn off.

Then throw in the "we arent political" thing, and it makes it damn near impossible to get the great organizers to stay for too long. Someone posted something a while back about the built in fails of OWS, and it has to be recognized that while it may not have been intentional, it is a major problem and the leading cause of downsized meet ups.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

OK - I hear you loud and clear. So, do you have any thoughts on how it could be improved?

And regarding getting political, I think the problem is that people saw it as an either or. I think we can and should hit from within the system and from the outside -- that pressure from all sides is what will undermine (and eventually topple) the corporate power grab.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I agree with the all sides approach, always thought was obvious.

As far as GA's and meetups, Im not really sure. I always was a fan of soapboxes, and hence thought that perhaps the first hour of GAs should go to announcements and plans.

After that, let it go into raw debate and soapbox time. Thats what people like, and thats what really brings up the emotions. Some said that stuff goes on at the occupations all day, but it doesnt. The day is a mix of nonsense, and theres no structure.

If we cant sit for a couple hours every night and hash things out, then we are no better than Congress. "No one is leaving until we figure this out" is what we always wish we heard them say in Congress. So lets live by our words.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well said.  And that sounds like a really smart way for the GA's to operate.  1 hour of announcements and plans and then, no matter what, when the clock strikes the end of the hour, soapbox time begins.  That way the business gets done and everyone knows there's a limit to it.  And it's fair to all.  The clock is running it, not one person.  And the soap box can run as short or long as people like -- if they stay and people keep stepping up on "the box" then it keeps rolling.

I wonder if any GA's did something like that.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

If you don't tell your own story, somebody else will.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2765) 1 year ago

They hope to prevent sudden phase changes so that things do not boil over to threaten the existing power structure. The fact is that any society that progresses and achieves greatness requires the constant bubbling of ideas, counter-ideas, supporting evidence, and refutations. There were societies where this freedom of discussion had been abridged and they were left behind culturally and otherwise for decades if not for centuries.

European coffee houses of old, Starbucks, OWS assemblies, online chat rooms, and social media all serve(d) the same needs that catapult societies into the modern age and beyond.

[-] -3 points by ZenDog (13629) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

shutting down the camps along the mid and northern parts of the country was perceived I believe as necessary on the basis of health concerns. Back during the War of 1812 there were several thousand troops stationed at Battery Park in Burlington, and during the winter disease was rampant, and many of them died.

The issue of health concerns hit the news late Oct early Nov 2011. Shortly after that at least two members of OWS died, and there was one instance of a murder that took place in Cal on the periphery of one of the encampments. The other two locations were I believe in Texas, and of course, Josh Pfenning, in Burlington, Vermont.

There is, of course, no evidence to indicate that any of these instances were the result of human engineering designed to facilitate a process of shutting down the camps - but the fact remains. Because of these events, shutting down the camps became much easier.

Any proposal to target the leadership of OWS with sniper rifles - equiped with silencers - during protest is something that is in a whole other league all its own.

Zero points already. Isn't that interesting. I'll take that as a compliment. It must mean that I have enunciated clearly.

and newwrld had a comment removed. Already. Must be a conservative operative.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2765) 1 year ago

Never worry about your points -- you have quite enough already. newwrld seemed not to have realized that what they had described was a fundamental human condition worldwide were it not for modern civilized practices.


[-] -1 points by freewriterguy (882) 1 year ago

ya i was thinking the same thing, the document on page 61 is blocked out so we dont know who was planning a sniper attack against leaders of the protest movement for sure.

[-] -2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Honestly, things like this kind of just show up on the internet. And the fact that on page 102 they stated that (blank) was leading OT is laughable at best.

[-] 0 points by ivyquinn (167) 1 year ago

Laughable? OWS is featured on FBI's watch list, as well as DHS. Don't discredit, research.

[-] -2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

It is laughable. Im sure whoever it was would be flattered. I have a few ideas, but I doubt those people would consider themselves the leader...

Im not saying they arent concerned. Im just saying that putting out misinformation or information to steer the conversation is an old trick...these papers seem to have some glaring inaccuracies.

"Trust half of what you see and none of what you hear" this saying didnt come about by accident.

They used to sit in their cars across from Curtis Hixon with the lights off for hours. We'd wave when marching past em :)

[-] 0 points by ivyquinn (167) 1 year ago

.... I'm not sure what you are implying or who you are accusing here. But this isn't disinfo. I've personally seen the DHS action plan concerning ows. You can find it here


[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Im sure there are all sorts of docs out there about occupy by fbi and whatnot, like I said they used to sit across from our tables. Just saying that when they make statements like "blank" is leading OT, and I was there, and there was no clear leadership, it just shows how much they were chasing their own tails.

What an incredible waste of government resources.

[-] 0 points by ivyquinn (167) 1 year ago

Most FBI blanks spaces is nothing more than restricted or confidential information. To say that those blanks aren't truly targeting occupiers is asinine. They have their list, as well as their agenda.

The government always drains resources, it's their MO.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34879) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

And not to worry shills - you have your own list - and eliminatio...... um .... discard procedures.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Dude, Im not saying they dont have lists. Im saying for them to say that this lone person was leading OT is stupid as all hell, even if you wanted to say a person was leading you would of had to list at least 5-10 names.

[-] 0 points by ivyquinn (167) 1 year ago

It's obvious to us that OWS is a leaderless, non-hierarchical movement. However the MO of the DOJ, DHS, ATF, FBI and other sister agencies, is to ostracize and scapegoat free thinkers. However, OWS is an idea. They can never arrest or kill an idea.