Forum Post: OWS targeted by FBI, use of snipers
Posted 11 years ago on Dec. 26, 2012, 3:23 p.m. EST by ivyquinn
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1 comments 1 day ago by agkaiser
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We can fight govt spies. Here is a court ruling thay indicates some judges find in the peoples favor.
http://truth-out.org/news/item/13542-court-rules-antiwar-activists-can-sue-government-spies
FEAR! FEAR! FEAR! Now go away and be a good little serf, like your dady was.
this post is counter productive.
You're right, this post was counter productive.
-.- Awe. Someone is thinking again huh!
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Oh, I think they probably knew there would not be violence -- but that they wanted to get everyone they possibly could to THINK violence might happen so local, state and federal authorities (and the public) would be more likely to think the "shut down" of camps etc was "unavoidable".
The fact that governments decided it was in the best interest to shut down places where things could be discussed is very telling.
The last thing they want are everyday people congregating and figuring out the problems and solutions on their own. The very stuff that is democracy.
Yup. Hence the riot police and heavy armament when dealing with nonviolent protesters. Fascinating how those images in America looked to people around the world.... We lost some serious credibility there while we were proclaiming others should allow peaceful protest. Total fucking bullshit and it's starting to show. Man does this piss me off. I can't believe freedom loving Americans weren't enraged. I can't believe they bought the rather second rate propaganda.
Unfortunately the majority of people will soak up whatever the MSM tells them.
I cant tell you how many people have told me that it was nothing but a bunhc of spoiled kids that want everything for free. Then I start explaining what Wall St and the Fed has been doing, and hows its a mix of communists/socialists/anarchists/libertarians all talking about the issues, and then they are impressed.
No leaders made it very hard to get any kind of streamlined messaging out there, because someone has to be he one announcing it at press conferences or doing the interviews. We kind of just let the media paint us however they wanted, with no counter effort.
Can you send me a synopsis some time of what you say to regular folks that seems to sink in. When you encounter someone who bought the "a bunch of freeloaders" propaganda, what exactly do you say to them? I just don't know where to start when I encounter this. I think it is pretty damn important to be reaching out to a broader audience.
When you start with things like quantitative easing, and the bailouts, and now the QE Eternity, it makes it hard to go against it.
I try not to go into absolutes too much, because then you start to tread into the same MSM nonsense.
Like with education, no one can disagree it sucks. High school is a freakin joke. And no one can disagree that all these college kids are going into a fucked up situation. So something has to be done. If they have something to say, I ask them to come down.
Of course then they show up for a GA and get to listen to 3 hours of debate on how a GA should be carried out, over and over, and say to hell with this haha.
Well, we gotta fix at if we want this to grow. How do we fix that with GA's?
I like your approach for folks who think Occupiers are freeloaders by the way.
When the press takes the most extreme soundbits and plays them on FOx, and then MSNBC plays all those declaring Obama is the man, it makes it tough to compete for the average person who is sick of it all.
Its such a messy process, and anyone can bring up anything, and then you run into whether GAs are for announcements and workgroup notices, or should they be used as general meetings too...etc etc etc....
All I know is that when someone comes by to see things, and all they see is semi-chaos as far as organizing goes, its immediately a turn off.
Then throw in the "we arent political" thing, and it makes it damn near impossible to get the great organizers to stay for too long. Someone posted something a while back about the built in fails of OWS, and it has to be recognized that while it may not have been intentional, it is a major problem and the leading cause of downsized meet ups.
OK - I hear you loud and clear. So, do you have any thoughts on how it could be improved?
And regarding getting political, I think the problem is that people saw it as an either or. I think we can and should hit from within the system and from the outside -- that pressure from all sides is what will undermine (and eventually topple) the corporate power grab.
I agree with the all sides approach, always thought was obvious.
As far as GA's and meetups, Im not really sure. I always was a fan of soapboxes, and hence thought that perhaps the first hour of GAs should go to announcements and plans.
After that, let it go into raw debate and soapbox time. Thats what people like, and thats what really brings up the emotions. Some said that stuff goes on at the occupations all day, but it doesnt. The day is a mix of nonsense, and theres no structure.
If we cant sit for a couple hours every night and hash things out, then we are no better than Congress. "No one is leaving until we figure this out" is what we always wish we heard them say in Congress. So lets live by our words.
Well said. And that sounds like a really smart way for the GA's to operate. 1 hour of announcements and plans and then, no matter what, when the clock strikes the end of the hour, soapbox time begins. That way the business gets done and everyone knows there's a limit to it. And it's fair to all. The clock is running it, not one person. And the soap box can run as short or long as people like -- if they stay and people keep stepping up on "the box" then it keeps rolling.
I wonder if any GA's did something like that.
If you don't tell your own story, somebody else will.
They hope to prevent sudden phase changes so that things do not boil over to threaten the existing power structure. The fact is that any society that progresses and achieves greatness requires the constant bubbling of ideas, counter-ideas, supporting evidence, and refutations. There were societies where this freedom of discussion had been abridged and they were left behind culturally and otherwise for decades if not for centuries.
European coffee houses of old, Starbucks, OWS assemblies, online chat rooms, and social media all serve(d) the same needs that catapult societies into the modern age and beyond.
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Never worry about your points -- you have quite enough already. newwrld seemed not to have realized that what they had described was a fundamental human condition worldwide were it not for modern civilized practices.
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ya i was thinking the same thing, the document on page 61 is blocked out so we dont know who was planning a sniper attack against leaders of the protest movement for sure.
Honestly, things like this kind of just show up on the internet. And the fact that on page 102 they stated that (blank) was leading OT is laughable at best.
Laughable? OWS is featured on FBI's watch list, as well as DHS. Don't discredit, research.
It is laughable. Im sure whoever it was would be flattered. I have a few ideas, but I doubt those people would consider themselves the leader...
Im not saying they arent concerned. Im just saying that putting out misinformation or information to steer the conversation is an old trick...these papers seem to have some glaring inaccuracies.
"Trust half of what you see and none of what you hear" this saying didnt come about by accident.
They used to sit in their cars across from Curtis Hixon with the lights off for hours. We'd wave when marching past em :)
.... I'm not sure what you are implying or who you are accusing here. But this isn't disinfo. I've personally seen the DHS action plan concerning ows. You can find it here
http://truth-out.org/news/item/8012-dhs-turns-over-occupy-wall-street-documents-to-truthout
Im sure there are all sorts of docs out there about occupy by fbi and whatnot, like I said they used to sit across from our tables. Just saying that when they make statements like "blank" is leading OT, and I was there, and there was no clear leadership, it just shows how much they were chasing their own tails.
What an incredible waste of government resources.
Most FBI blanks spaces is nothing more than restricted or confidential information. To say that those blanks aren't truly targeting occupiers is asinine. They have their list, as well as their agenda.
The government always drains resources, it's their MO.
And not to worry shills - you have your own list - and eliminatio...... um .... discard procedures.
Dude, Im not saying they dont have lists. Im saying for them to say that this lone person was leading OT is stupid as all hell, even if you wanted to say a person was leading you would of had to list at least 5-10 names.
It's obvious to us that OWS is a leaderless, non-hierarchical movement. However the MO of the DOJ, DHS, ATF, FBI and other sister agencies, is to ostracize and scapegoat free thinkers. However, OWS is an idea. They can never arrest or kill an idea.