Forum Post: OWS Year-Round Consumer Guidelines... Please Spread Far and Wide !
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 18, 2011, 1:15 p.m. EST by Rico
(3027)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
We speak much of politics, but frankly I see only one real political action for us: Get the Money OUT of Politics and Break the Two Party System ! See my proposal at http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-the-people-in-order-to-a-proposal/ .
OUTSIDE politics, we have incredible power to shape the face of Corporate America via the "votes" we cast with our dollars. We borrow money to buy foreign goods then complain the bankers are rich and we have no jobs. We buy based on "sticker price" alone and chose the product made overseas with slave labor rather than American products just to save a buck or two. All our corporations out-sourced their manufacturing overseas to remain competitive in the mind of the "cost is king" shopper. See my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ .
Christmas is the time of year when most companies make the bulk of their profits, and we can SHAPE American business by our choices. I urge OWS supports to follow the guidelines below AND use their social networks to encourage everyone they know to do the same.
1) Buy American products whenever possible, even if they cost a bit more. Your willingness to pay a little more means you ascribe real VALUE to your beliefs.
2) Buy said American products LOCALLY whenever possible. I know it's less convenient, but we are losing "brick-and-mortar" jobs due to our fondness for on-line shopping. We now have such a large mass of low-skilled labor (we can't ALL be Engineers) that even those lucky few who DO get jobs suffer from depressed wages due to all the competition at the lower end of the job market.
3) Shop at "Mom-And-Pop" stores when you can.
4) Use cash as much as possible. Next, use your ATM or debit card, but get some cash back for the next purchase. Avoid Visa/Master-Card altogether if possible, even if you pay it off every month (you're still pumping a LOT of money through them).
5) Avoid computerized self-check lanes. Yes, they're convenient, but they are also eroding yet another class of jobs people need. Again, your willingness to wait a little so these stores hire more people and buy fewer computers means you ascribe VALUE to your beliefs.
6) If you MUST shop on-line, please use site such as www.americansworking.com , www.made-in.us.com , www.madeinusaforever.com , www.proudamericantradingpost.com , www.stillmadeinusa.com , www.allusaclothing.com , http://www.lehmans.com/store/USA_Made , American shoes at www.shopnewbalance.com/ ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Balance confirms they're American ), etc (note several suggest the hand made products at www.etsy.com ... please choose those made in the USA). You may find these sites useful for simply IDENTIFYING products. You can then go to the manufacturer's web-site and find out what "brick-and-mortar" stores carry them so you can buy locally per item 2 above.
Please post any additional web-sites where people can find more American made products. Wherever possible, please identify what "brick-and-mortar" stores carry them.
Please get the word out ! Put American products on your own "wish lists" and ask everyone you shop for to do the same. Use Twitter, Facebook, etc. to spread the word as far and wide as possible. Please use http://bit.ly/vof9WH to link to the main post so I can keep track of how well we're getting the word out.
Our power to CHOOSE what we buy is the one bit of power the capitalists leave us. They can't take it away without becoming "Socialists" ! We've been playing by THEIR script till now, but we have the POWER to shape the face of American business using our power to CHOOSE what we buy.
1, 2 - Support your local grocery, farmer's market and/or grow your own. You are paying more for fresh organic food, but think of the medical expense down the line from eating nutrient deplete food (which you pay for)! Purchasing and eating fresh produce from your local farmers or from your garden is like taking a super vitamin!
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Very good post........ We have been doing that for over 10 years now...isn't always easy but at least I know I'm keeping with my principles.
I am currently unable to participate in the protests as Im having back surgery.However I feel that IF YOU ARE NOT BUYING FROM SMALL BUSINESS MADE OR GROWN IN THE USA....Then you are just as much part of the problem as the 1%...Going out on the streets and just making noise will not I change anything if you do not put your money where you mouth is..We all need to aggresively spread the word as BUYING LOCAL MADE IN USA IS THE BEST FORM OF PEACEFUL CHANGE
definitely buy american this xmas season, the smaller and more local, the better
Yes ! Let's do this !
Number 3 -- Using cash instead of debit/credit card - not only does this starve the banks, it helps small merchants tremendously! The merchant transaction fees are higher for small businesses and on products where there is only a small margin of profit for them, getting that debit card fee out of the equation is an immense help to them!
I've gotten in a rut of hardly carrying any cash but I make sure I have cash for my nail salon appointments, visits to the produce market and trips to other small stores. If I happen to run out of cash, I go buy gum at a chain store with my debit card and get cash back.
I agree with your goal, but I would like to stress that we should also let our representatives know, we will not tolerate the "free trade" lies anymore. Send an e-mail to the White House. Send one to your Congressman, to your Senator. GET US OUT OF NAFTA.CAFTA, GATT, KORUS, and the WTO.http://economyincrisis.org/
As I note below, we don't have to BUY these foreign goods. If we DON'T all their little agreements mean NOTHING, right ?
...If we DON'T all their little agreements mean NOTHING...; Yes,If everyone were to get on board at the same time that would work, which is not to say that even if some of us do, it won't still be somewhat effective. The thing is, there's a bit of a vicious cycle. As more people's incomes are pushed lower or their jobs eliminated altogether as a result of outsourcing, the more likely the price difference can become a real burden. I think this is a case where it is more practical to set the rules for our whole society than to rely on individual action. This has been a subject of serious contention for a long time. It was a major issue that contributed to the Civil War. (see The Nullification Crisis in link below.) The thing I look to is, what has worked historically. The status of the US as the top manufacturer, and the top economy, was achieved with the help of protective tariffs, starting in 1792, with George Washington and Alexander Hamilton recognizing the need to enact tariffs. (see link) Another disturbing development, is the very recent decision (yesterday) by the WTO, that prohibits labeling products as to the country of origin. (see link) This will make it almost impossible to even know what has been made where.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullification_Crisishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_historyhttp://economyincrisis.org/
I don't disagree (or totally agree). I am simply asking people to be more aware of the impact their buying decisions have and exercise what power they have for change.
Even if we did NOT have a problem with imports, I would be urging people to avoid buying from companies that do not pay a fair wage, pollute, etc. It's all the same thing: We need to open our eyes and recognize the need to be RESPONSIBLE consumers.
I agree 100%!
I agree, it need not be an either, or, choice.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-1119-wto-meat-20111119,0,1241519.story
This clarifies the issue a little. Though it comes down to Mexico and Canada feeling that they're being discriminated against.
RevolutionaryGirl, I went and read the WTO documents and posted a link with summary just above in response to karenpoole's question.
Ah thanks!
What is the reasoning for the new labeling law prohibiting country of origin? That really disturbs me.
A summary of the complaint brought primarily by Canada and Mexico then joined by many other nations can be read at http://tinyurl.com/WTO-Meat-Marking-Annex . I'm no lawyer, but as best I can tell the key points are:
1) USA and said countries share a highly integrated industry in which livestock from either country is routinely transported across the border for slaughter and eventual sale in the USA.
2) USA passed laws requiring meat products from animals raised outside the USA must be marked with country of origin. Livestock raised in the USA and slaughtered outside it's borders may be marked as a USA product.
3) The cost to domestic meat retailers in tracking and marking the origins of meat products as they move back and forth over the US border represents a significant impediment to foreign suppliers of livestock and slaughter services.
4) Livestock is a commodity, and there is no identifiable difference between livestock of one country and another.
5) Prior trade agreements prohibit imposing undue burden on imports for the sole purpose of competitive advantage or protectionism.
6) The WTO ruled that, since livestock is a commodity freely traded between the US and it's neighbors in a highly integrated industry, the requirement to mark foreign livestock serves no purpose other than protectionism and therefore violates existing trade treaties signed by the USA.
Again, I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me we could appeal this ruling on the grounds that "Mad Cow Disease" is related to the conditions under which the livestock is raised and that these conditions vary between nations. Should an outbreak of "Mad Cow Disease" occur, it is vital that meat derived from livestock raised in the affected country be rapidly and easily identified so it can be removed from the food chain.
Oh well, it least it's only meat products. :o(
It can be roughly in-line with Free Trade in general. The WTO and Free-Traders in general, will want to hide the fact that so much of our manufactured, consumer, day to day goods from Microwave's to Spatula's to DVD players are not produced by Americans but produced by wage slaves typically in China - or any other country where dirt cheap labor can be obtained. So many Americans do not grasp the full picture of how "MADE IN CHINA" has so drastically hurt us economically.
It is SIMPLE : American Companies have outsourced over the last 10-40 years BECAUSE OF LOWER WAGES !!!
Please Karen, I am appealing to people to understand the first and main reason why the accountants and executives of American business have sent the labor to China, India, Honduras etc. ------because paying an American $10 --$20 / H O U R is vastly more than paying
$2.00 / D A Y. (This 2.00/day has been the avg. in China for the last 30 yrs or so).
You will not see this in the largely neo-liberal / globalist ruled media. You will see the Red-Herring however of Taxes, etc. as being the main reason that things are made over there.
Yes, but they seek lower wages because We the People buy the product with the lower sticker price without regard for anything else. American business either had to start using the same labor as their competitors or go out of business.
WE can turn this around by following the guidelines I posted. I have cleaned them up and posted them outside the forum at http://bit.ly/vof9WH so folks can share via twitter, facebook, etc. Visit the site, and if you agree, spread the http://bit.ly/vof9WH link far and wide !
Note the site has no ads, and get get no personal benefit in any way via the link... I'm just trying to get Americans to use their power as the world's largest consumer market to effect change.
Supposedly, it violates WTO rules. (See the second article on the page in the link) It disturbs me too.http://economyincrisis.org/
They just signed a new trade agreement with the Asia-pacific region so its obvious our government does not care if we lose any more jobs. They are promoted it even after they have witnessed what the previous free trade agreement did to us.
Yes, American (expensive) workers are not needed anymore and we have become disposal. For this reason, I feel our demands are just rolling off the 1%'s backs. All these large corporations were built off the backs of the American people and have now been SCREWED! Ultimately though, I feel America will be brought more in line with the rest of the world meaning a lot lower standard of living.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you that we will have a much lower standard of living.
Y'all are depressing me !
By the way, take a look at the new and improved guidelines at http://bit.ly/vof9WH
Yes, we will and (if it is not to low) I do not find that all that bad. America has been the resource hogs of the world. It is the transition that will be hard on most people.
Yeah, it will be hard and people will adjust when they have no choice.
I have another topic posted: What is OWS real agenda ... which is getting a lot of responses and below is a response I just posted. What do you think?
Let's see if I can summarize my thoughts and conclusions and why I have asked my initial question. On the contrary, I have been reading and spending a lot of time at not only this movement, but the US economy and world economies (but mostly the US) for the last two years and no I really do not read or listen to main stream media. I have a lot of fragments that I have yet to summarize in a neat little paragraph so I just itemize:
Your existence generates dollars for someone. Whether its your food, the interest you pay on a car or home, if you were worth nothing you'd have had to be previously cremated. The question is will enough people join and support an anti-consumerism movement to channel money away from corporations and monopolies? Wallstreet doesn't see numbers if you shop locally at a mom and pop that isn't publicly traded. Basically everyone is looking at your numbers, what news you watch, what you buy, how you spend your money. If your numbers say you'll show up for the rally then happily buy your groceries at Walmart, how seriously would you take you if you were Wallstreet? If the numbers say you are rushing out to buy iphones and Branded over-priced items made in China, what do you expect people to think? There was a rally and then business as usual went on. There is no quick win here. There is a way to go about your life and stop being Wallstreet's TOOL. If you won't change basic things about your lifestyle, then everything goes back to business as usual. The powers that be will just wait you out.
Good post, but you're terribly pessimistic ! I still see hope if we can get the folks of largest consumer market in the world to change !
Pessimistic? Maybe not so bad in the end if you really think about it. Of course, I have recently discovered within myself that I may be a socialist at heart. Remember when I talked about each country being a community? This does go along with your view of buying American made! Please tell me change how?
Become an active and responsible participant in politics and economics. Research, think, and vote well in both the political and consumer spaces where our power and responsibilities lay. Have you read my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ ?
Okay, I did read that posts before and I do a lot of what you say, but ultimately I guess you may be right that I am a little pessimistic because I do not think these things in the end will stop what is already in motion and the 1%. They may help some with employing our people, but not where our society is going. Of course, I could be wrong ...
Look at all the kids in the streets. They are our hope !
See Rico, that is where we differ because I have no faith that our power lay with our current political system. Yes, I think I have read your link, but I will go and read it again.
We are the largest consumer market in the world. If we buy American, we need not be pulled down to the level of the third world !
Interesting point ... how would that work preventing us from being pulled down to the level of a third world country?
Our consumer base fuels a huge part of the world's economy. If a significant number of us buy American and show a willingness to pay a bit more to do so, we can decouple our own wages from those of the third world.
Okay, thanks! Makes sense ... local not global. My thought is each country should think of themselves as a "community" and take care of themselves. Global is too big and not efficient.
Exactly, but it has to be a 'Peoples Movement' so our leaders can say "Hey, it's the people, I can't do anything about it" when the WTO tries to weigh in ;o)
Right. So don't BUY those foreign goods and their agreement means NOTHING. The 1% has their hooks in us because we are so enamored with buying the cheapest possible product without concern for the social costs. We need to STOP following their script and show we will buy what we want from companies who hire Americans, observe pollution and safety regulations, etc.
Yes, another knife in the back of the American worker. That one, the Trans Pacific Partnership, is still in the works, but the Korean, Columbian and Panamanian trade agreements have just recently been passed. http://www.voanews.com/english/news/usa/Obama-Outlines-of-Pacific-Trade-Deal-Reached-133747848.html
Doesn't matter much if We the People don't BUY their goods does it ? They can try to sell us out, but they can't control what we BUY ! Muhahaha !
I agree 100% with pushing the representatives we have to do better. I write to my representatives, and my local Congresswoman said I am one of the few that do. See my most recent letter at http://occupywallst.org/forum/marijuana-prohibition-a-letter-to-my-elected-offic/ for example.
I congratulate you for that. I was not directing my suggestion just at you, but to all who might read this thread. Thanks for pointing out that we need to support American manufacturing.
Why are you against free trade?
This has isn't really about trade, it's about American jobs.
When we have high unemployment, the easiest way to fix it is to buy from companies that hire American workers, don't you think ? Because we're OWS, we ALSO want to do this in a fashion that doesn't enrich the bankers, so we try to avoid passing every single transaction through our credit and debit cards.
On the completely separate issue of trade, I am all for it insofar as it is fair trade. By 'fair' I mean the people we compete with aren't working in squalor for slave wages for companies that use lead paint and have no qualms about polluting. We cannot compete with people working under such conditions, and so it's not fair trade. Neither is it ethical trade because we're encouraging folks in foreign countries to leave their farms for a life of slavery in urban factories.
If you're concerned about pollution, you might want to consider this; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html
Interesting. They had me with "as much pollution as all the cars," but a closer read reveals they're talking about sulfur (our cards don't produce much of it). Besides the "normal" issues with pollution, is sulfur also a global warming problem ?
From what I've learned so far, the only sulfur compound that is is specified as a greenhouse gas, is sulfur hexafluoride. Sulfur dioxide is not. I don't really know if these ships produce much, if any of the former. Never the less, these ships also do produce CO2. As much as 1000 tons of CO2 per day, according to the article in the link below. This can be reduced by slowing the ships down, (which is being done to some extent, but more as a cost cutting measure than an anti-pollution measure.) The sad thing is, all this shipping is being done,unnecessarily, just to exploit the slave wages in Asia. http://spinneypress.com.au/books/greenhouse-pollution/ http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/25/slow-ships-cut-greenhouse-emissions
Yep I agree, and I bet nobody has even taken a look at what it does to ocean habitats. Out of sight, out of mind. We really have to start THINKING about what we're doing.
By the way, I created a clean copy of the shopping guidelines at http://bit.ly/vof9WH where we can have twitter share buttons, etc. Take a look and, if you agree, forward http://bit.ly/vof9WH as wide as you can. Thanks!
Yes, here's an article on sulfur and ocean acidification. I looked at your site. Looks good. http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=7545&tid=282&cid=31286&ct=162
THERE you go, now you've connected the ship problem directly to acid rain and ocean health ! I suggest you post the two links in tandem and spread the word !
I agree that our country needs to raise the standards on our trading partners. If our employers require workman's compensation insurance, minimum wage and decent working standards, then so should our trading partner's firms. Now we can trade fair and the world can live better. Today, the 1% does more damage abroad. At this point if OWS doesn't live on, more will be enjoying the same 3rd world living standard. Personally, I am so sick of buying foreign made junk products- from the plastic outdoor chairs to the shovels that break after one season. Enough is enough!
The neoliberal agenda; !. The rule of the market; "Free enterprise no matter the social damage. Open global markets, (free trade). De-unionising workers and destroying workers rights that have been won over years of struggle. No price controls of any kind, a belief that an unregulated market is the the best way to help everyone. The idea of trickle down economics. 2.Cut expenditures for social services, like health care, education, and the safety net for the poor. Cut expenditures for things like roads bridges and ware supplies in the name of "smaller government". (Except subsidies and tax breaks for big business)
Capitalism is effective because it allows consumers to shape production, and it aligns well with human nature. Human nature, however DOES have a dark side, and it leads to greed and corruption.
Socialism is effective in caring for the people, but it doesn't align production and consumption well, and it runs counter to human nature.
I'm afraid the answer is Regulated Capitalism with a social net and policies to control the dark side and help those left behind.
Why can't the Capitalists see this ? Do they not read history ? Have the forgotten how poorly pure capitalism (and the gold standard) worked for us during the age of the Robber Barons ?
Sign me "increasingly frustrated by the general population."
It did work pretty well from post WW2 till the 70s, Then the direction changed toward neoliberalism. I think it is a good idea to look at history to see what has worked for the many, and not just the very few, and what hasn't.
The economy worked from WW II until the 1970's because that's how long it took before all the economies that were destroyed finally emerged from reconstruction and started competing.
In the post war decades, we could tax our companies all we wanted without worrying about them leaving or becoming non-competitive. We could also tax the heck out of our people because it was all relative.
The agreements we brokered at the Bretton Woods conference also came apart when the rest of the world recovered. The "Nixon Shock" pretty much marked the end of those agreements. This was predicted by the economists at Bretton Woods who advocated a reserve currency called the 'Banco' to be issued by the IMF. We decided to make the dollar the reserve currency and finally ran into the predicted Triffin Dilemma by the mid 70's.
I wouldn't look to the post war years for an example. In fact, there aren't any good parallels in history for the situation we face today. Never before have we had such a long period without major war between advanced economies or the volume of international trade and banking we see today. We're in uncharted waters.
One thing that does seem to be finding wide international acceptance is that the USA can't keep printing the money needed to sustain world economic activity. We need to be able to pursue our National interests rather than the worlds. This is the Triffin Dilemma. There is growing agreement that the world needs to transition off the dollar to the 'Bancor' proposed by the economists at Bretton Woods. Today, we're calling it "Special Drawing Rights" or SDRs, but these instruments issued by the IMF are indistinguishable from the 'Bancor' except in name.
Beyond the transition from the dollar to the SDR as reserve currency, it's hard to tell what needs to be done economically... as I noted above, we're in uncharted waters.
The "bancor" was proposed by Keynes, no one else. One of the other things Keynes pointed out at that time, was the danger of large trade imbalaces. I don't agree too much with the rest of your analysis. I think you're a pretty bright guy, so please, do a little research on the introduction of neoliberalism, and see if it changes your perspective. Germany, Japan and, ironically China, are using mercantilism very effectively to our detriment. It was the adoption of neoliberal, Milton Friedman, "free market" ideology that changed things. Not external conditions.
I'm always willing to listen to an opposing view... Got a link to get me started ? PLEASE make it a scholarly link with references if possible... I take YouTube, Blogs, etc with skepticism.
Here are some starters; http://www.globalissues.org/article/39/a-primer-on-neoliberalism http://corpwatch.org/article.php?id=376 http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/neoliberalism-and-higher-education http://www.bidstrup.com/economics.htm
OK, bookmarked and saved... I'll read them shortly (traveling tomorrow)
Yep, and we DON'T need the politicians to do it for us, we can do it OURSELVES !
I posted a clean copy of the guidelines and shopping links at http://bit.ly/vof9WH so folks can share using Twitter, Facebook, etc. Take a look, and if you agree, put http://bit.ly/vof9WH out on e-mail, twitter, facebook, etc as wide as you can!
I agree with buying American products which is why I posted the following on this very thread an hour ago:
Here is a great resource for products still made in the USA
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/
You can also just look on the box at the store. And don't think just because you are in the mom and pop store on Main Street everything is made in the USA. Check the label!
Locally made crafts, glassware, ornaments and artwork make great gifts as well. Just make sure it is really locally made.
On the second issue, A person in China a job making $3/day can feed the family. Do you want them to go without food because they are Chinese? I am sure they will get together and have their own revolution as we did here in the early 20th century.
Yep. I got stillmadeinusa.com in the main post ! Thanks !
As for China, we helped her by defeating Japan to her east and the Soviets to her north, we infused her with Direct Foreign Investment, and spent $2 trillion on her goods. America is sick right now, and we can't help others until we get better.
"Why are you against free trade?" First, I would like to point out that the word "free", in "free trade", can be a little misleading. I prefer, unregulated trade, as it is more descriptive and accurate. The first and most obvious reasons are loss of jobs, and loss of national wealth. I'll give you the first statistic from a list that I link below, and It will provide another you another 34. If you still want more reasons, let me know. http://economyincrisis.org/content/35-facts-about-gutting-america%E2%80%99s-industrial-might-should-make-you-very-angry
And what is your idea to regulate trade?
I would suggest the same method that worked to create and maintain the manufacturing strength of the US from about 1792 till WW2, and to a lesser extent till about 1975. Tariffs. 1975 is about the time the manufacturing sector began to be lost. Take a look at the chart in this article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_history
High Tarrifs would riun this country, Since you are fone of WIKI look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%E2%80%93Hawley_Tariff_Act
A tariff in a single nation doesn't cause a big problem, it's the tit-for-tat retaliation back in forth; we raise ours, others raise theirs in retribution, and a world-wide reduction in trade occurs with global deflation as the final result.
I am not proposing a tariff, and I want us to continue to abide by international trade accords. Why ? Because nobody can retaliate to a PEOPLE'S movement with tariffs without running afoul of trade treaties and the WTO. Their only recourse would be a comparable people's movement, and if there's even a HINT of encouragement by the government, it's a violation. Only a grass-roots movement is permissible.
My plan is not a tariff, does not violate trade agreements, and nobody can retaliate.
Here's some more info on your assertion.http://www.tradereform.org/2011/10/protectionism-didnt-cause-the-great-depression/
Even the article you link goes on to explain that the effect of Smoot-Hawley is questionable. The actual Increase in tariff rates that resulted from S/H was not very significant, compared to the already high rates that existed before its' enactment. There is one fact today, however, that blows your whole argument out of the water. IN 1929 WE WERE A NET EXPORTER. We had a trade SURPLUS. Today, we are A NET IMPORTER. We can't lose a trade war today. http://seekingalpha.com/article/163794-is-arthur-laffer-setting-up-another-debt-bomb
From the department of state:
But while the tariff might not have caused the Depression, it certainly did not make it any better. It provoked a storm of foreign retaliatory measures and came to stand as a symbol of the "beggar-thy-neighbor" policies (policies designed to improve one's own lot at the expense of that of others) of the 1930s. Such policies contributed to a drastic decline in international trade. For example, U.S. imports from Europe declined from a 1929 high of $1,334 million to just $390 million in 1932, http://future.state.gov/when/timeline/1921_timeline/smoot_tariff.html
China's economic power gain is unfair on all levels and is destroying us economically. They don't trade fair! Their currency is not traded and they manipulate the value in the world market. Forget tariffs because that issue generally has the same reaction by most but China levies a VAT (Value Added Tax) on all goods only this VAT is only paid by companies sending goods in because their own companies are allowed a tax credit for their VAT. So this is the way they make sure they ship out and not in. This is one of the reasons why senator Hatch wants to help Wal-mart build more stores in China. Our own firms want to build and do business there for the tax benefits. China is not playing fair and taking advantage of everyone including their own people. Obama is making some attempts to even out the playing field but there will be many corporations that will push to continue business as usual and you know who ultimately runs our country?
http://www.worldwide-tax.com/china/chi_other.asp http://bloom.bg/rTK6hM http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/11/politics/main20118430.shtml http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/13/obama-china-needs-to-play-fair/?page=all http://www.tradereform.org/2011/10/hatch-files-amendment-to-gut-senate-currency-bill/ http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/technology/business/firms-want-obama-to-make-china-deliver-1.1170119
I have no problem with fair trade. If a country creates a tariff, VAT, or policy I have no problem with us matching it. The playing field should be level. This is exactly what should happen. I did not intend to mean we should have free trade with a country that does not reciprocate.
A nationalistic protectionist view will not lead to prosperity for the American worker. I buy American products whenever I can. I look at the box to see where it is manufactured. I even try to buy local products when I can. That is different from protectionist legislation or policies.
So other than matching foriegn reciprocation, what can we do to bring more manufacturing jobs home? I don't know whether you really are a farmer or not, but I have a lot of respect for the people that make it possible to eat! I think that we need more manufacturing on our soil, but I haven't seen how the current stratagies proposed by sitting government will change anything.
We need to create a business friendly environment. Most folks here will disagreee but lower corporate taxes and less regulation woul dcontribute to that.
we need basic regulations to make sure corporations do not abuse people or animals or pollute hoever legislation like Sarbanes Oxley and hundreds of others just add costs to companies and really don't do anything.
The corporate tax meme is a red herring. How much tax did GE pay. Answer less that 0. They actually got money back.
I agree. We need to close tax loopholes. That is truly not fair to those of us who pay.
That.
Yes, avoid credit. Buy less stuff, buy more services such as live entertainment, family counseling, sports club memberships, education, and travel. This will keep the money circulating and enrich yourself and your neighbors.
The Salvation Army also has a wonderful program partnered with JC Penney called " Angel Tree". You can pick a child in your home zip code and purchase a gift from thier needs or wants list and JC Penney wraps and sends it directly to that child. I did 6 gifts for kids all in family members names and know my family will love this idea .
http://angel.jcpenney.com/angeltree/
YES !
By the way, I cleaned up the guidelines and reposted them at http://bit.ly/vof9WH where folks can tweet, digg, etc. If folks follow my guidelines, they'll be fighting the multi-nationals and banksters, but I didn't point that out lest I offend the conservatives.
Visit http://bit.ly/vof9WH and, if you agree, spread the link far and wide ! No ads, no profit, and no agendas other than to help America heal herself via her awesome power as the world's largest consumer market !
Great thoughts, Rico! Keep up the great work. All of ur points are true, and can help our cause tremendously.
Thanks Restorefreedomtoall1776 ! (Whew! You picked a looooong name)
A website I would also add to your list is Etsy.com it's a great place to find handmade goods. This will help stay at home moms; retirees; & also the disabled.
Added, but with a caveat.... Etsy doesn't sell products made only in the USA, and for all I know, some are made in China ! I added them because you're the second person to suggest them, but I added "please buy the products made in the USA."
I didn't think of that, but it's true. Good thinking!
I have yet to add them to the external site at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit , but will do so. I also need to mention that OverStock.Com has a "Made In USA" selection.
If I can't find it Made in the USA I go to Etsy for second hand things (after the thrift store of course). There's an unusual amount of vintage American goods in working condition and I tend to that. However, being second hand (and fairly old) probably negates any negative effect of buying something made in another country.
It's the handmade crafts that are probably a bigger concern- is the craftsmen buying only USA made supplies?
In this global economy, I don't think we can be sure whether ANY product is purely comprised of raw materials from any single nation. Assembly of an end product through application of labor, however, is called "Value Added," and it's this step that tends to employ the most people. As long as the majority of the "value added" is American, it's "American" as far as jobs are concerned. Handmade crafts certainly fit this bill... they start with VERY low "value added" materials then apply a LOT of labor to make the end product.
Like $40 of yarn but 200 hours that get put into a blanket....
Exactly. You explained it better than I did !
Lol I crochet...
Do me a favor ? I've created a clean version of the guidelines at http://bit.ly/vof9WH with shareable links, etc (we can't do that in here). Take a look and if you like it, forward the link to everyone you know! Thanks !
Rico, this is awesome! I've been advocating this same thing for 15+ years and people are finally starting to hear me. I have another idea that might help: I think I can make a website (I already have a place to host it, so no cost!) to list local businesses, but we'll need "foot soldiers" in all the major cities to send me lists of the businesses to populate the website. They can probably just call businesses rather than visiting.
If you think this is a good idea, respond here, and I'll set it up with a unique email where people can send lists. It shouldn't take me long. Also, suggest a name for the website please if you agree with me.
pchalks,
I'm on-board with whatever you can do to spread the word, but you MUST make it apolitical and have zero profit motives (no ads, etc).
I was running into some resistance because of people's objections to OWS, so I tightened up the wording, removed the politics, and reposted at http://bit.ly/vof9WH and help defeat them ! No ads, no profit, no motive but to help employ Americans.
Note if people follow my guidelines, they'll ALSO be fighting the multi-nationals, super-corporations, and the banksters, but I didn't point that out as an objective lest the conservatives be put off ;o) Spread the word ! Spread the link!
As for another website, I was thinking the same thing, but then found that folks have already done it. I simply aggregated their efforts under a single page where folks can twitter, digg, etc... the conservatives who advocate "Made in the USA" don't seem to understand how to use social media ! I'm simply trying to help them.
Yes, I saw that link, already visited and shared the site, but what I was thinking about doing was making a website with city-specific pages listing locally-owned businesses. I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're advocating - locally-owned versus merely shopping in your own town whether it's owned independently or not. As far as I know, there aren't any sites that list independently-owned businesses, but that's where I try to shop as much as possible.
This would be a tremendous boost for small businesses across America during this holiday if we could get it up and running, I believe. If people could break the "small price" habit this holiday season, the "small price" could very possibly shift to the small business realm - eventually - and maybe boost employment in the process. Perhaps a coalition could form between these businesses so they could get the "big box" discounts. I can dream, right?
Makes sense.
I have often wondered whether we couldn't get Google to do something like list a locality score for products when people search for products on their site. Barring that, one could feasibly make a "widget" for Internet Explorer, Chrome, Firefox, and Opera that does the same.
I like like your idea and don't want to discourage you. I suspect, however, that a browser widget that "scores" products might get broader use than a simple web-site.
Ohhh, I like that idea even better! That's way beyond my capabilities though. Google is one of my least-fav companies for their off-shoring, low tax rate, etc., but it's impossible to live without them, I suppose. There must be some developers in the group.
I'm a programmer, but I haven't written widgets.
The widget would have to REFERENCE a database somewhere. Maybe your web site could start compiling the numbers the widget would reference ?
That would work. I have to populate my database, so I'll need help from the field, as I said before. Actually, after I posted earlier today, I remembered that AmEx has a (small) gathering on Facebook: http://bit.ly/u54i0t, searchable by zip code. It only has businesses that happened to find it and opted in so it won't be complete by any means.
I'll start working on it and post back as a new post when I'm ready for emails to start pouring in.
LOL ! "emails pouring in !"
You better be patient. I've been spending days trying to get significant traffic on my simple guideline post. I know for a fact I have touched at least 10,000 people in the past 24 hours via this forum, e-mail, Facebook, and Twitter, but only a very small percentage of those people actually clicked on the link. I'm encouraged, however, that the re-twitter and facebook share counts are high.
I'm not trying to discourage you, but you better weigh the amount of work you're going to do versus the probability of getting sufficient traffic to make it worthwhile.
There's a ton of stuff on the INTERNET competing for people's attention, and you have to think about how you're going to do that. Take a moment to add up how many first-order seeds you can plant (all your twitter followers, your facebook friends, your e-mail contacts, etc) then do a one-deep dive to see how many seeds they can sow. This number better be pretty darned high, or you won't be able to get your message out wide enough to start getting hits on your site !
Shared. I hope it'll get more hits. I'll re post for the next few weeks before X-mas.
Thanks! Every bit helps... It's not spreading as fast as I had hoped.
461 hits, 39 tweets, 33 shares on Facebook. 62% of the hits are from this forum, 16% from Facebook, 15% from e-mail, and the rest from assorted places.
My only hope is that some folks are forwarding the actual website address rather than the http://bit.ly/DoYourBit . Opera hosts the site for me (no charge), but they don't update the hit count very often, so maybe more folks have seen the guidelines than I know about.
Great list of where to find American products.
Thank you!
Are you going to forward the link to your friends and associates ? If so please let me know either by private message or by a post how many so I can update the tally tomorrow ! Thanks !
I sent your guidelines to half a dozen of friends/relatives/coworkers. It might make them think twice before buying something from China they don't need.
Meanwhile, I've shopped at New Balance in Boston not knowing it was a Made in America company. One of the websites made in America's inventory is so limited (so very few vendors) that it simply breaks your heart.
That's awesome ! I'm adding new balance to the list (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Balance which confirms they manufacture in America ).
Trouble in paradise! (well, at least it's only the Chairman--all rotten!)
Read on (from the wikipedia url you sent)
2011 Presidential campaign
In August 2011, it was discovered that New Balance chairman James Davis had donated $500,000 to Restore Our Future, a political action committee supporting the campaign of Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, which caused a backlash from their customers.[9] Company president/CEO Robert DeMartini responded with a letter on the company's Facebook page, stating that Davis had made a private donation to the Romney campaign, that it was not made by New Balance, and that Romney's signed pledge to challenge same sex marriage was not reflective of Davis, DeMartini, or New Balance's corporate stance on GLBT rights.
Still OK in my opinion... it's the WORKERS we're worried about, not the personal politics of the CEO. Besides, I don't think there ARE any other running shoes made in the USA ! Every person will have to decide for themselves whether they're OK with it.
I copied your post above deleting reference to OWS (for those that do not support OWS) and forwarded it to ALL my email contacts. Merry Christmas America!
It is up to us to create jobs. The only thing a government can do as far as jobs are concerned is to create government jobs.
Exactly, and I'm baffled how THAT'S going to work.... we use taxes to hire people then only get back a small portion in taxes from their income. Duh ! We need real jobs with Americans making things, and that won't happen if we never BUY American !
Boycott Christmas by buying only American products.
Good stuff Rico. I don't like the narrative that voting/government/citizenship has no value, and that being consumers who vote with our dollars is everything - I think we need to be both good citizens and good consumers.
On those grounds, I'll be following this advice.
I'm not arguing against voting/government/citizenship , I just think that until we get the special interests and their money out of government, we are very limited in what we change. Once we HAVE OUR GOVERNMENT BACK, we can use the uncorrupted Democratic process to work out our OTHER differences. If we insist on debating those differences NOW, we become FACTIONS with NO POWER ... just the way the STATUS QUO likes (and perpetuates). I do, by the way, write to my representatives often, and my Congresswoman says I am one of the few who do.
Gaining sufficient POLITICAL power to effect meaningful political change will take a long time, and I was looking for something we can do NOW by exercising our ECONOMIC power.
We're in agreement. (I know) :o)
Who the hell are you to tell us what to do?
LOL ! "You're not the boss of me!" Genius comment.
Who the hell is OWS to tell ANYONE what to do?
Overstock.com has a huge selection of made in USA products. They even make it easy to find with a specific Made in USA tab in each product catagory
Really? That's awesome ! I'll add that to the site at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit . Thanks !
Yes really.. I've been shopping with them for years.. awesome customer service, shipping and great return policies. They also have an entire section devoted to Worldstock Fair Trade products.
I can't find the Made in USA tab !
I just looked at the site again.. you will find it under " other" under the catagory and brand listings
When you see the " products" tab up top on the left, click on any product catagory, say Home and garden. Then on the left it will break down the items by selection. You will find the Made in USA tab there.
Great thread and useful links...thanks, Rico.
Faithntruth ! I haven't seen you around for a while !
Note I cleaned up the guidelines and posted them at http://bit.ly/vof9WH so they would be more accessible to the general public and shared via social media. Please take a look, and if you agree with it, forward the http://bit.ly/vof9WH as far and wide as you can.
It's good to "see" you again !
If i can make a recommendation, i would add the companies you listed to the blog. I like having options that support jobs in the US. And add local artisans? We have lots of talented people who make great crafts...wooden toys, fabric dolls, even sock monkeys!
All the links that were in my post are on the external site... they're to the right in the "sidebar" . I will add any link folks provide insofar as I can check it out and confirm it's selling USA products. Are the sidebar links missing when you look ?
Yes, there is no sidebar at all...im on an ipad, so I dont know if that makes a difference to what i see...
I think I figured it out... the CSS code hides the sidebar if your screen is too narrow.
I enabled the "blog" and "link" menu buttons at the top then changed the text under item six to reference the link button so folks can get to them that way if needed.
Give it a try and tell me if it seems to work now.
Good job! It is all at the bottom on my screen. Keep up the good work :)
OK, I modified it back to the way it was then added language telling phone/tablet uses to look below for the links. I also deleted the comment block so folks don't have to look below them for the links. Give it a try and let me know if the "user experience" is OK now!
Better! I'll be adding a bookmark, so thanks again for your research :-)
Thank you, very good ideas here.
I cleaned the post up and added social media links at the http://bit.ly/vof9WH site. If you like the content, please forward the http://bit.ly/vof9WH link as far and wide as possible . We need a LOT of people on board if we are to make a difference ! Thanks.
All good ideas for a more sustainable economy. Don't blame others for sending jobs overseas if you are not willing to make buying American a priority. (There will, of course, be many things that are only made overseas, even if they have American brands, so it is usually hard to know if something is American and to what extent. There will also be times when the overseas products are significantly superior.) I'm willing to pay a little more to buy American, just as I am to buy organic if that is what it takes.
"Wealthy tax cuts [the Bush Tax Cuts] are argued for on the basis that they create jobs, but where are the jobs? We’ve tried that program for almost a decade, and each year appears to show fewer jobs than the year before! When you try something based on promises of jobs for ten years and it yields nothing, it is way past time to stop! The wealthy do not ever create jobs because they get tax breaks. They create jobs because they find markets they can exploit. Markets create jobs. Yes, the tax cuts made the wealthy wealthier, but the wealthy moved the jobs in their companies overseas...."
(from http://thegreatrecession.info/blog/2011/11/bushwhacked-by-the-bush-tax-cuts-for-the-rich)
So, if you want to create American jobs, create a market for American-made products.
--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog
Read your block sidebar. I'm happy to see you're and equal opportunity knee-basher ;o)
I've been trying to get folks to acknowledge what role We the People played in the mess were in, and you nailed it in your comment. People have been wasting their power as consumers in the largest market the world has ever seen buying foreign goods. There's plenty of folks pointing out government and Wall Street's role, I want people to see that THEY played a role too !
By the way, I cleaned up the shopping guidelines and posted them externally so I could put share buttons on the site. See http://bit.ly/vof9WH . If you like what you see, please spread the http://bit.ly/vof9WH link as far and wide as you can. I'm hoping we can get enough people on board to make an impact !
Thanks, Rico. We the people could affect huge change in short order if we stop buying from companies overseas when we have viable alternatives made here. Even more, we could change banking overnight if we just withdrew funds from the banks that have played the worst roles in this long, unfolding scandal.
Nevertheless, I'm very glad to see people sharply protesting the wrongs that have been done and that continue, as I suppose you do, too.
--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog
Yep, we're all fighting for something. Wait, that's a good song title ;o)
I'm bookmarking your blog so I can read through when I have time.
Please focus some of that power over here:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
Sorry. I don't participate in vendettas. Toshiba is FAR from the largest problem we have, and it only distracts us from dealing with the BIG players.
They are a big player. They helped cause that nuclear disaster in Japan, and it's only a matter of time before we are all covered in nuclear filth!
Sorry, those were American made reactors of the old design.
No, they were commissioned by Toshiba!
http://acehoffman.blogspot.com/2007/12/boycott-toshiba-resend.html
Gawd I LOVE how people use sites that are obviously biased toward their opinion as though they are some sort of a reference. ANYONE can write a blog. I know, because I have a few.
Let's try and actual news outlet: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fukushima-mark-nuclear-reactor-design-caused-ge-scientist/story?id=13141287#.TsrRJYRWhVU
Oh my! 5 of 6 were GE reactors.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-05-21/toshiba-design-questions-may-slow-u-s-nuclear-plant-approvals.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/31/us-toshiba-bias-lawsuit-idUSTRE70U52520110131
Look where she worked. Toshiba can't design a nuclear plant because they are too busy abusing women!
Now you're changing the subject. Neither of your links suggests Toshiba had anything to do with the Japanese reactor crisis. Your shoddy debate practices only serve to further convince me you have a persona agenda.
OWS dolls with protest signs,tents, and optional pepperspray available. At target on black Friday.
LOL ! Are they made in AMERICA ? If so, maybe I'll get one !
Canada....
Crap ! I wanted one ! Wait, isn't Canada like the 51st state ? ;o)
i agree so much with you but you must know. it is so hard for a business to make money in america now because the government is not business freindly.
Agreed. We can work on that too, but the first thing we need to do is get some folks back to work!
boycott Wal-Mart
Well done.
Thanks! Don't forget to forward a link to all your social media contacts and let me know how many you seeded so I can update the tally tomorrow !
I avoid social media.
I only use it as a tool to increase the power of my ideas. The day to day stuff is usually distracting driven, but I ignore that and focus on it's power to spark revolutions as in Egypt, etc. People trying to run a revolution really should sign up ;o)
Too bad it didn't work in Egypt. There may have been something wrong with your 'spark' message. Seems the Islamists are taking over now. No thanks.
Stop Buying.
If you stop buying altogether, you'll hurt the 99% . Go ahead and buy, but only those items made in America by companies who pay a fair wage, do not pollute, etc.
Could someone please list the names of all American manufacturing companies that is still in this country?
Take a look at http://www.manufacturerusa.com/
There are other more comprehensive listings, but you have to pay to see them ;o(
I am there with you.
Thanks ! ;o)
Hi Rico, I have talked with you on other posts and I know you have a "good job" and a family. Thank you for caring about America's people and taking time to post. Karen - retired in Austin
Karen, I want my fellow man to have a good job too. I've already made my Christmas List of American made goods that my friends and family can get locally, and I have requested a similar list from them.
Care to share the list you made? Maybe here so I do not miss it and in a new post with a heading something like American made presents you can buy for Christmas.
Mostly clothing from http://allusaclothing.com/ and a number of DVDs (one of America's major export products ;o)
I did not know that about DVDs. Thanks
Movies and War are perhaps the only two things we make better than ANYONE !
( I wouldn't put War on my wish list, however, as it tends to be very costly )
Sad but true regarding war, but movies I have to wonder nowadays!
You CAN still buy OLD movies if you want ;o)
lol You have a way of putting humor in the truth you know. Night, night ... long day with little sleep because of a doggie I know. (-:
Great Post Rico!!!!! Thank you.
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Here is a great resource for products still made in the USA
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/
You can also just look on the box at the store. And don't think just because you are in the mom and pop store on Main Street everything is made in the USA. Check the label!
Locally made crafts, glassware, ornaments and artwork make great gifts as well. Just make sure it is really locally made.
Yes, they do provide a nice list, and I have incorporated them into the original post. If you're broadcasting these links, please let me know how many people you've seeded (either by post or private message) so I can update the tally tomorrow. Thanks !
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Are you suggesting that we boycott technological advances which lower the price of goods and services? Are you suggesting we pay more for goods produced under a system of government (force/coercion) backed, artificially high wages out of a sense of Nationalism? Are you suggesting that we should take business away from those who provide jobs to people willing to work for less so that those who refuse to work at the wage the market will bear can continue to drain the funds collected from each and every one of us by force (taxation)?
The relentless pursuit of a lower 'sticker price' without concern for SOCIAL cost is causing us many problems. Our economy is no longer driven by trade in things we NEED but things we WANT. Ask yourself how many people YOU know that are employed providing goods/services people HAVE to buy. We are largely a luxury economy, and that's why the "mood" of the consumer matters so much ("Mood" has little to do with whether we buy things we NEED like food, for example ).
Given so much of our economy is driven by consumption of things we don't need, why do we seek never ending efficiency in producing them ? Simple. So those with money can buy even MORE things they don't need. Should this be more important to us than having millions unemployed ? I think not, and I HOPE you agree.
China did not kick our tails using "technological advances." They kicked our tail using poorly paid labor working in terrible conditions with factories that have little qualm about polluting, using lead paint in their products, etc. By the way, I AM advocating taking jobs away from Chinese children working for "market wages" in sweat shops to employ Americans.
We have a serious problem with the unskilled and low-skilled workforce in our country. We are rapidly eliminating jobs they are able to perform by our use of computerized check-out lanes, on-line shopping, etc. The result is that the lower end of the market is flooded with 10 or more people for every job that remains. We end up having to support the unemployed through our taxes and often pay support to those lucky few who DO have a job because their wages are so low.
I do not argue from the perspective of Nationalism, I argue from self interest. I would MUCH rather pay a little more for a product and have a man working than pay less and support him via my taxes. Wouldn't you ? Even better, you will be restoring some sense of dignity and belonging to your fellow man.
If you think this employment problem is temporary, you're wrong. Please read Vonnegut's prophetic "Player Piano" written in 1952. A summary is available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano .
Bravo!
Thank you ! Please tweet, facebook, digg, etc the post link ( http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-please-support-the-american-worker ) to everyone you know !
The other cause of our current financial problems, which I mentioned I would get to later, is our currency. Money is supposed to represent, and be exchangeable for, goods which have been produced and not consumed. When the government-backed Federal Reserve prints currency and loans it to us through the banks, it cannot be exchanged for any goods that the federal reserve owns because the federal reserve does not own any goods. It owns (via government) our taxes. When you receive a dollar, what you are receiving is your own effort which will be taxed from you later. That is what that dollar represents. Because the government could not get away with taxing 100% of products and services (this would quickly lead to its abolition, NOBODY'S down for 'the divine right of kings') there can never be enough of anything owned by the government to cover all of the currency in circulation. This is the nature of deficit spending. Government will continue to print and spend money and we will continue to pay for it (until we decide to stop and to demand that currency be backed by objective values which it can be exchanged for).
I was listening to someone on Democracy Now earlier today and he said something along the lines of: "Our government has all this money to spend on prisons and deportations but no money to spend on schools and healthcare? We do not have a budget crisis, we have a priority crisis." But he was mistaken. The government does not actually have all that money. They create when they need it and expect us to pay for it in the future. He was right about the second part though. Our government does have a priority crisis.
Thanks for taking the time to read and sorry about the two posts, I got a 'content too long' error :)
Money is just a token that has no intrinsic value in and of itself. People who imbue it with great meaning and power suffer from the same delusion as those who hoard it. See my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-is-money/ .
I am a fan of the Federal Reserve. I find many who hold passionate opinions about the Fed, but few who understand it, much less the history of economic crisis in the United States. Go research the regularity of major recessions, depressions, and panics before and after 1935 when the MODERN Federal Reserve (sans political control) was defined by the Banking Act of 1935.
I will respond to your what-is-money thread instead of here.
It is not the desire to purchase goods which cost us less that is responsible for our financial problems. It is partially the inability to identify the true cost (hidden by subsidies, taxation, etc) and partially something else, which I will get to later.
When you suggest that "we" seek never-ending efficiency in producing goods, you are mistaken. It is only the producers of those goods who seek more efficient methods of production. The 'workers' often try to stop efficient systems from being implemented (such as self-checkout lanes, automated manufacturing, online shopping, etc). This, in turn, keeps the price of goods higher and lowers the value of the wage the worker earns (or rather, keeps it from increasing). While I don't disagree with boycotting producers whose goods one feels are produced in a way that violates individual rights, I DO disagree with the idea of the minimum wage, which is the incentive that has led thousands of companies to ship their jobs overseas. Instead of workers in this country getting paid less as the efficiency of production techniques lowers the cost of goods, we have people in this country who are out of work because it is not cost-effective to do business in this country while the prices of goods remain the same.
Regarding unskilled laborers, it is up to THEM to obtain the skills they need in order to become useful to a potential employer, or to start their own business. That's really all I have to say about that.
Regarding the support of the unemployed, I don't believe that that is anything the government should be involving itself in. I am also against all other forms of welfare. I believe (as did the founding fathers at the time they signed the Declaration of Independence) that Government exists solely to protect individual rights (The right to life and all others logically derived from it and the specific nature of human life). If government did not involve itself in forcing you to pay for another man's inability or lack of skill, you would be free to spend your money wherever you pleased, regardless of whether or not it kept an unskilled worker employed.
"Even better, you will be restoring some sense of dignity and belonging to your fellow man." It is not within my power to regulate the emotions of another man, nor is it my responsibility to make up for his lack of self-esteem.
And I do not think that our employment problem is temporary, so long as the government retains absolute control over the economy as granted by the commerce clause in article 1, section 8. I think the abolition of the commerce clause would be a great step towards unshackling what is left of America, and possibly giving it a chance to save itself. That, along with an explicit recognition of the right to life in the bill of rights and an explicit 'mission statement' in the constitution such that government exists solely to protect individual rights.
I have taken a job under the table in my town because employment is so scarce. It benefits me in two ways. 1.) I earn money equal to the effort I put in.
2.) None of the money that I earn goes to feed or clothe or house those who can not or do not earn it unless I choose for it to.
I have taken this job so that I can house myself while I work towards my goal, which is to be a programmer, amongst other things. I am not going to college because most of the colleges are state-run (and I have a very low opinion of the state's ability and incentive to run a school well) and because I cannot afford a private school. I am studying philosophy, physics, economics, and programming on my own. My own initiative, the internet and what few libraries remain make this possible. My initiative, my effort, and what I produce from the above are my own. I alone have the right to decide what to do with them.
Interesting. I happen to be in the 5% and I paid $73,000 in taxes last year, but even I have more compassion for my fellow man than you. Ayn Rand would be proud. Rather than simply insult you, I'll take the time to offer some counter-arguments just in case there's a slim chance you'll think a little deeper about your positions.
"Regarding unskilled laborers, it is up to THEM to obtain the skills they need in order to become useful to a potential employer, or to start their own business." Do you honestly believe that all people are capable of becoming Engineers as I am and you aspire or that all of them can become managers, nurses, etc ? Do you think those who can't should simply be allowed to die in the streets ?
"It is not within my power to regulate the emotions of another man, nor is it my responsibility to make up for his lack of self-esteem." Indeed it IS in your power to regulate the emotions of another man. That's why we value RESPECT so highly. I assume you understand you CAN have great impact on the self-esteem of CHILDREN right ? If so, you DO understand that maturity can sometimes be delayed and that, given patience and a chance to succeed, they CAN mature, right ?
"Government exists solely to protect individual rights." Really? By your own admission, you rely on the Internet and public libraries, and BOTH are the result of Government funding. I'm also assuming you don't drive on any interstate highways to stay true to your values, right ?
" I am studying philosophy, physics, economics, and programming on my own. My own initiative, the internet and what few libraries remain make this possible." You DO know that the Internet was created by the US Government (DARPA specifically), that the Internet specifications are all marked "Department of Defense," and that the public libraries you speak of are publicly funded, right?
"I have taken a job under the table ... My initiative, my effort, and what I produce from the above are my own. I alone have the right to decide what to do with them." So basically, you're MOOCHING off the tax dollars paid by others for your Internet and Libraries, but don't feel you owe anything back in taxes ?
I am an autodidact, dropped out of High School, have no degree, and am nevertheless in the top 1% of engineering ranks at a Top-100 Engineering firm. I therefore appreciate and respect all your initiative. By your own admission, however, you ARE using publicly funded resources to do so, pay no taxes yourself, and feel that nobody ELSE should be allowed to mooch.... like you.
I think you need to reflect a little on whether your lofty ideals are consistent with your behavior. I would also urge to to think about whether all men are truly created equal and mature at the same pace. Finally, you might ponder whether those that cannot attain to the same level as you are worthy of some small compassion or whether they should simply be banned to die in our streets.
Thank you, Rico, for your very tempered response to this post. "Mooching" was your most tactful word. That's actually illegal.
You and I, on the other hand, can be comfortable knowing that self-actualization is the highest level on Maslow's pyramid. Some people will never get there!
Whether I agree or disagree with them, I respect my fellow man, and try to maintain some semblance of civility in discourse (at lest up to the point where the other guy is clearly not "discussing" with the intent of expanding his perspective bu proselytizing).
By the way, I cleaned up the shopping guidelines and reposted them at http://bit.ly/vof9WH where folks can tweet them, digg them, etc. No ads, no profit, no motive other than to convince America to use their power as consumers to reshape American corporations, defeat the banksters, and put folks back to work. Visit the site, and if you agree, spread the http://bit.ly/vof9WH link far and wide!
"Do you honestly believe that all people are capable of becoming Engineers as I am and you aspire or that all of them can become managers, nurses, etc ? Do you think those who can't should simply be allowed to die in the streets ? " Of course not all people are capable of becoming the most skilled individuals in whatever field of work they choose. What I am saying is that Companies should not be forced to hire those they have no use for and those that cannot do the work. Nor should the products of the effort of others be expropriated from them to support the lives of such people. If they want to live, they must do the work required. That is what is required of ALL of us. If they cannot provide any useful products or services, they are dependent on the charity of others. That is reality. What is unacceptable to me is the idea that those who can produce should be forced to support those who do not.
"Indeed it IS in your power to regulate the emotions of another man." An emotion is a physiological reaction to the evaluation of reality performed by a human consciousness. Whether a man feels good about himself, his ability, his behavior etc. (his self-esteem) is dependent on his own hierarchy of values. If he places more importance on the evaluations of others (such as a child does) or on his own evaluations of himself (as a mature man should) determines the source of his self-esteem. Of course, a man who places more importance on the evaluations of others does not actually have 'self' esteem. Similarly, a child seeks the approval of adults because a child does not have a fully functional rational faculty; he is DEPENDENT on the rational faculty of those that care for him. Thus, approval from those who care for him signifies that his behavior is correct and good. When he develops his rational faculty, he is no longer dependent on the approval of others. A major problem in our society is that we tell our children to be strong, independent people, yet our educational system is set up such that obedience and conformity are rewarded while exercise of the individual's mind is not. This is a generalization. It is certainly not true of all schools and teachers. It is a reflection of my own experience and that of others I have spoken to.
I value respect only from those I respect. I have no concern for the judgements of those whose system of values is in opposition to mine.
Neither libraries, the internet, nor roads NEED be funded through taxation. Internet use certainly isn't. I pay one of the two Oligarchical organizations (Comcast and AT&T) depending on which I am less fed up with. I would use a local ISP if one were available (although they would probably depend at some point on lines owned by Comcast and AT&T) and if it were cost-effective. If there were private libraries available in my town I would use those instead. And no, I don't drive on any interstate highways. I do not have a car. It is not cost-effective and I don't need to go out of town very often. When I do, I take a bus, which I pay for. Regarding libraries, yes I use them. But I do not rely upon them being publicly funded. As I said above if there were public libraries, I would use those instead on principle.
Furthermore, my money does make it into government coffers. Every time I pay rent, every time I buy something at the grocery store, every time I pay my phone/internet/water/electric bill, a portion of that money goes to the government. I cannot control whether others allow the government to tax their effort and if they pass that charge on to me, I will pay it in exchange for the service they provide. What I will not do is work for my own destruction.
I feel as though what I have said above addresses paragraphs 5, 6, and 7 but the last paragraph requires an additional response. All men are not created equal. They are, however, created with equal rights. I have compassion for those who are truly trying to better their own lives and haven't figured out how to make it work yet. What I do not have is 'spare change'.
I'm increasingly unsure why you are quoting Ayn Rand and John Galt to me under a post discussing support for American products and jobs.
The products of your mind and hand are indeed yours, but you judge your fellow man too harshly.
I fail to see how buying a product from a man is charity.
I grant people time to mature according to their need rather than my schedule.
I respect my fellow man, though we may disagree, because he is my fellow man.
Failing to pay lawful taxes while simultaneously using public facilities is mooching.
You are the worst of men. You claim to live nobly by your lofty standards, yet you unilaterally change society's contract for your own pleasure rather than leave the society from which you take.
You are not John Galt, you are a sad imitation. You are no better than your fellow man in any eye but your own. You have used Mind for self-justification rather than reason, and for that Ayn Rand would have nothing but disdain.
Remember, John Galt left society to form his own. Perhaps you should do the same. Do not, however, assume we will beg for your return. Life isn't a book, and we tire of your speeches.
Pay your taxes and do what you will with the rest.
1.) "The products of your mind and hand are indeed yours" 2.) "Pay your taxes and do what you will with the rest."
First of all, I would like to point out that these statements are contradictory.
I did not suggest that buying a product from a man is charity. I suggested that supporting a man who gives you nothing in return is charity. I respect the potential of my fellow man. If he proves, through his actions, that he does not intend to live up to the requirements of being human, it is those actions which I disrespect. I still respect his potential but I will not support him if he does not offer me anything in return.
I have never claimed to be John Galt. And I am not quoting from Atlas Shrugged. The ideas are the same, and this is because Ayn Rand was right. And nobody did beg for John Galt's return. They begged for that which destroyed them, as many people are doing today.
Regarding 'public' services, of which, out of the few you pointed out, it is only the library that I do not pay for on a 'per-use' basis, 'public libraries' are closing all around the country. I do not think that this is because our government is using our taxes to fund them. In fact, the library in my town has lost its government support. It is supported entirely by donation. I have donated countless books which I no longer have use for, not out of charity, but out of self-interest. The ideas contained in those books are ideas I want to see spread. Placing them in a library is the best way I can think of to do that.
If the people of this country cannot be convinced of the moral superiority of Capitalism to that of every other economic system, I will indeed leave, but not before I have developed the resources to do so.
No contradiction whatsoever.
You CHOOSE to be a member of our society. A precondition to membership is acceptance of our laws. If you are compliant, then you area free to debate, discuss, argue all you want to try and convince society to change their laws in the fashion you desire, but you DON'T get to remain a member of our society while failing to abide by the terms of your contact with us simply because you don't like them.
I paid more than $71,000 in taxes last year. I sometimes think that's high (less so now that I've been interacting with OWS), but I pay them because doing so is part of the contract I accept as a member of this society. If I don't want to pay what our Democracy says I need to pay, I am free to leave. So are you.
You focus on the library, but what of the enormous investment our society made in the Internet you use so freely? It didn't appear from nowhere, it was the result of investments using tax dollars. What about the freeways and public roads your bus drives on ? You say you pay for your bus ride, but that's only PART of the cost; you're not paying anything for infrastructure.
I pay those who own the infrastructure on which the internet functions. I pay the company that owns the bus when and only when I ride it. The company that owns the bus pays the owner of the roads which it depends on for their use of those roads.
It was not within my power to choose where I was born or the laws of that country. I place more importance on following the moral code that I have chosen than the edicts of those who claim ownership of me. I effectively do not live in this society. This society expects me to pay for things I do not use or support. I do not do so and I do not claim the right to use the property of others without paying for it. It is the government, not me who forces others to pay for the projects it determines to be worthy of investment. I do not claim the right to invest what others have produced. I advocate the abolition of this policy. I do not expect this government to protect my rights because I know that it won't. I take full responsibility for the protection of my own life because I know that there is not a government that currently exists which chooses, as its mandate, to do so.
Furthermore, the idea that I both own the products of my own mind and hand and owe some portion of those products to someone else is a contradiction.
"Do you think those who can't should simply be allowed to die in the streets ?"
interesting point of view and unfortunately it is not within humanity's means to preserve what nature wants to eliminate. there are usain bolts and there are terri schiavos in the world and it would take several generations of medical advancements to make all new human births in the world 100% genetically flawless.
I was referring to the everyday POOR who lack sufficient skills and perhaps education or intelligence to become engineers, nurses, managers, etc.
neither was i.
usain and terri are two ends of a spectrum with a lot of people in between.
those below a certain cut off are not looked upon favourably by the cycle of life.
Got it, corrected my response ;o)
It would be easier to support American labor if they would take their pension funds out of the major banks and the Wall Street corrupted Fidelity and Vanguard investment managers.
Having billions of pension dollars in Fidelity and Vanguard simply perpetuates the status quo. Fidelity and Vanguard then use union dollars to coerce American companies to think only about short term gains by off-shoring their labor force instead of thinking about the long term growth of America's middle-class consumer society.
The unions are making the OWS fight necessary. So it becomes a contradiction to support unions. Not until they start supporting America's middle-class with their pension dollars.
I agree, but are we to hold the jobs of the 99% hostage until we can effect larger change over time ? If you look at my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ you'll see I want consumers to change more broadly. I want them to start considering SOCIAL COST in general rather than mere sticker price.
I agree. The short term savings at the expense of the long term economic security of the nation is not only good social policy but good economic policy.
I am all for helping a third world country get started on the path to modernization but that is not what is happening. The third world countries are staying that way while a few Wall Street investors make double the profit by preying on the third world by giving them our jobs a a tenth the wage they would pay us. And in the process turning us into a third world country too.
I think that America needs to become the absolute pinnacle of economic success to be a beacon for the rest of the world to aspire to and rise up to. This current predatory libertarian short term gains at the expense of long term growth priority of Wall Street and the business schools of America is running the whole world into the ground.
EXACTLY. If we don't do something, it will only get worse. Read Vonnegut's prophetic novel from 1952 called "Player Piano." There's an overview at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano .
Buy GM?
I prefer Ford, though I wouldn't mind a new Cadillac, Camaro, or Corvette !
In regards really large purchases such as a car, I wouldn't advocate people blindly buy American. Our cars HAVE improved substantially in recent years, however, and I WOULD say it's everyone's SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY to at least give them a look before buying foreign. There are ALSO many foreign cars that are at least ASSEMBLED in the US, and they're better than fully foreign buys.
Most Christmas gifts aren't as major as a car purchase, so there's much less concern over long term quality, etc. Heck, many of the gifts exchanged in MY family are forgotten within a month or so !
Do what you can.
sorry
I want to fix thing economically for the globe
Whole world! That is a big job ... Good luck
thanks
Then keep on buying Chinese. It really IS helping them.
"Boycotting Chrismas 2011"
LOL ! No, don't BOYCOTT, that just hurts the 99% ! Instead, follow the guidelines I described (now available in cleaner form at http://bit.ly/vof9WH ) !
5 - Non-electric products from www.Lehmans.com
Since 1955 and they try their best to buy American. I think they started out servicing the Amish community.
Thanks! I added the Lehmans "American Made" page to my list in the main post.
Unions give billions to left wing OWS type politicians.
Are you saying you won't buy American because SOME companies in America, and not all that many at that, are unionized ? You'd rather buy Chinese ?
If you need SELF INTEREST to get you motivated, consider this: With more Americans back to work, you'll defuse many protest movements, have more people paying taxes to reduce the deficit, and won't see so much of your tax dollar being spent to support the unemployed !
Our system has no intention of getting Americans back to work. They have already signed a new trade agreement with Asia-pacific region so more jobs can leave us.
Won't matter unless We the People BUY all those foreign goods. The one power we have that the Capitalists don't dare touch is our right to CHOOSE what we buy. As soon they mess with that, they're advocating Socialism and a "planned economy." Let's USE the one power they leave us.
Please provide a list of american made products because I don't have a clue anymore.
Barb, I am adding sites that sell American goods as I find them to the main post. I also provided a link to an American Manufacturer directory below your other comment.
I can't find the link.
Up in the main post. Here, I've pasted them below...
www.americansworking.com , www.made-in.us.com , www.madeinusaforever.com , www.proudamericantradingpost.com , www.stillmadeinusa.com , www.allusaclothing.com/ , www.lehmans.com/store/USA_Made
I got it, thanks!
I didn't include it on my list, but America remains the world's leading provider of movies, so BluRays and DVDs from American film companies would be fair game too. Many video games for X-Box are also made in the USA.
Thanks, your lists of American Made Corporations should be on a poster and educated to the masses since I am sure I am not the only one who is clueless.
In China a company can build a factory in a matter of weeks. In the US it takes years. Why? Government regulations at every level. Remove government red tape and those factories and jobs return to the US.
Over regulation is the problem. Steve Jobs told Obama, a man he supported this.
Well, I suppose you should buy Chinese then. No matter that their working conditions are poor, that they have been known to use lead paint in toys, etc.
ZERO jobs will return to the US if people don't start showing a willingness to pay just a bit more in support of their society. As long as people always put the strongest emphasis on sticker price alone, our companies will be forced to seek out similar labor rates just to stay in business.
Take an economics course. It's a lot more than labor rates. Just try building any major manufacturing site in the US at any scale. After the environmental impact study, zoning ordinances, EPA permits, building permits, OSHA permits and a whole series of local, state and federal government processes and procedures, you'll be off to Malayasia or Viet Nam where you can get it done in no time flat.
Government is the problem.
Right. So there's no point in trying to boost American employment until we complete a wholesale revision of regulatory policy.
By the way, what's your sense of the movement to the Special Drawing Rights visa vis the American economy, fiscal policy, and the appropriate response of the Federal Reserve ?