Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: OWS: Not Yesterday's Hippies

Posted 2 years ago on March 24, 2012, 5:05 a.m. EST by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

[If you're going to read this post and get instantly offended, please read it all the way to the end and think about it for a few minutes before accusing me of advocating hatred and genocide. Thank you.]

For those who keep seeing OWS as some hippie wannabes who are trying to revive a fleeting past of sex, drugs, rock and roll, and pretend politics that never really mattered to anyone, these aren't the boomers out there. This isn't just another manifestation of the most selfish generation in American history -- another Woodstock, another tax credit, another medicare entitlement. The Boomers are the establishment now.

Those mud and feces covered hippies have spent their entire lives taking liberties and benefits that no generation before them had and now plan to spend the rest of their lives trying to prevent the next generations from getting even half the same deal. The Boomers aren't just the most selfish generation in American history, they're in a league of their own.

No other generation has sucked up more resources or avoided more taxes. No other generation has more draft dodgers who were never prosecuted. No other generation has more entitlements designed just for them and no other generation complains half as loudly when they don't get someone else to pay their way. Today's Boomers are far more likely to be conservatrolls on the internet than OWS protestors in the park. So if it's the mud and feces crowd you're looking for, drop in on Fox Nation or Red State. Because the OWS activists aren't yesterday's hippies.

184 Comments

184 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 4 points by HitGirl (2263) 2 years ago

Those "mud and feces covered" hippies you're referring to never existed except in you own hate-filled imagination. Youth and idealism are what propel any movement (when it's not a manufactured corporate lie). They had a different style back then, but it was still OWS.

[-] 3 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Thank you, HitGirl! This pewestlake person sounds a little "forgetful" of what sprang forth from the old folks of my generation. Like my dad always told me, "Never argue with a crazy person. It's a waste of time." And now back to the miscellaneous ramblings of pewestlake! :-)

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Very clever. Prove me wrong and I'll back down.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

What is it you require as proof?

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

What "sprang forth?"

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Flower Power

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

OK, you win. ;-)

[Removed]

[-] 4 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

It always amuses me when condemnation of 'hippies' occurs...mostly because those doing the condemning have no concept of what hippies were.

Hippies were the protesters of the 60's, they were the cooperative builders, community awareness groups, socially conscious, the peaceful protesters, staging sit ins, marches, and nonviolent response.

They were the young men who were being sent off to fight a war that wasn't a war, one that no one could present a reason for...the men and women left to face the daily realities of the direction this country was heading. and to deal with those realities.

They faced the batons of the police, faced National Guard units deployed to disperse them. They went to jail, beaten, some killed...they were the generation that had to watch while college students were gunned down by an arm of our own military...Kent State.

They were the generation of Equal Rights, Civil Rights, much of what you have enjoyed to date, much of what you are attempting to defend today.

Your current movement is in it's infancy. Those 'hippies' stood their ground for years.

They got older, they got tired, but they didn't give up. They are still there, still protesting, still standing.

When you march there are 'hippies', not the 'wanna be's', marching with you. When you sit in protest they are there too...look around when you are at OWS groups, they are NOT all 20 somethings or 30 somethings, some are in their 60's and 70's doing what they can, what they know to do.

It wouldn't hurt to listen to them, they have already fought battles and won.

[-] 3 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Thank you for your kind words, PandoraK and all who expressed good thoughts of us "hippies.":-) I'm both proud and humbled to be considered as part of this wonderful movement.

While we may not have accomplished all that we set out to do back then, but the changes that stuck have great meaning to all in America today. Some have spent the last 30 years trying to undo the good things that came from the work done by my generation.

[-] 3 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

ThunderclapNewman, it's my generation too...my war, my time...too bad we didn't have camera phones and the internet in our day...imagine what we could have done!

[-] 4 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Hey! Very cool, PandoraK! We DID have news crews and 8mm movie cameras, tho. And we learned a great deal along the way, some of which I see is being applied in our OWS movement. "Now back to our regularly scheduled venom...er...program."

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

See my reply to you and two others in a comment to the original post.

[-] 2 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

I don't have to prove anything...history shows it.

By the way, someday you may be able to say you lived history to those who have yet to experience it.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

"If you can remember the 60s, you weren't into it."

Sound familiar?

Listen, I think most of us are actually on the same political side and my original post was aimed more at the people who try to lump OWS in with the worst images from the 1960s to generate guilt by association. That's why I finished off with Red State and Fox Nation. But suggesting that Boomers are heroes of civil rights, equal rights or economic justice is just preposterous. And for those who would like to shed the image of "dirty hippie," I just threw you a freaking bone! Gah!

[-] 3 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Pewestlake, hippies were called dirty, the previous label of beatnik were referred to as dirty and now OWSers are referred to as unclean...one might think there has been a periodic shortage of water and soap in America.

As I said previously, drop the labels and things look a lot different.

OWS the media picks up the trash and lack of sanitation areas, hippies the focus was on Woodstock, flowers and drugs, beatniks were the pot heads of yesteryear, out of touch with reality.

Sound like hype yet?

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I've been in the media for 25+ years. I have done everything within my limited power to present content that is meaningful and fair. I have gone out of my way to avoid stereotypes and degrading humor. In those ways, I am in the extreme minority. So since we're never going to get a reprieve from shitty media memes driven by corporatists, I figure we should start fighting back with a few tactical advantages of our own.

The conservatrolls project every weakness of theirs onto progressives. All I was doing was sending one back. Do I believe those things about Boomers? Yes, conservative Boomers. That much should have been obvious by the second to last sentence in the original post. Whenever "dirty" is used in a political sentence, it almost invariably refers to a progressive. Let's see if we can't pin on the right for a change.

In this media landscape, labels are only dropped when they lose their impact. Communism doesn't scare people like it used to, but socialism still does. So does "dirty hippie." But if we associate the "dirty hippies" of yesteryear with the "dirty corporatists" of today, we could at least cancel it out. So I used the Boomers because they're the most obvious converts -- the Reagan Democrats.

Hasn't anyone noticed that the conservatrolls have avoided this post like the plague? They saw the tactic right away and ran for the hills. We progressives have to get a LOT more tactically savvy if we're going to score any real victories after November. This was a fail on my part, but also on a lot of other people's part, too.

[-] 3 points by Underdog (2971) from Clermont, FL 2 years ago

As a Boomer born right in the middle of it all (1955), let me express on behalf of those Boomers who didn't cash-in and become Young Republicans our regret and failure for the mess being handed to the younger generation. Many of your observations are 100% correct. Please try to remember though that there are a lot of Boomers out there like myself who didn't ditch their ideals, and that is why you will find a lot of them on these forums trying to take advantage of a rare opportunity to support positive change that OWS represents. For the record, I am not a Republican, never made a lot of money, and am constantly bewildered that a large portion of the population agrees with the absolutely stupid spew that comes from the Right like Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc.

But, by and large, I think you're right and that we Boomers stand guilty as charged.

I am sorry.

[-] 2 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I don't feel qualified to accept anyone's apology for anything. We're all guilty to one degree or another. But I really appreciate your comments.

I do know that there are great people in every generation. I hadn't even really intended this to be an argument about boomers, just a snotty way to shift the "dirty hippie" meme to the right wing for a change. And it backfired, obviously. So I won't trying that around here again. ;-)

All that said, you can see in my exchange with Odin that I hold my Gen Xers to account for not doing anything at all but being cynical for decades, me included. Me especially! I've been jaded since before high school, if you can imagine that.

I was at an amazing gathering last night for the Move To Amend coalition. People from literally every generation, all bringing different perspectives but all based on their era. You could see it in action. I think my critics here think I probably hate everyone who isn't just like me but nothing could further from the truth. I love that I live in one of the most diverse counties in America. And I love to see the generations, genders, creeds and races working with each other.

If OWS has a blind spot at all, I would say it's in race relations. I'm not sure how many people have truly come to grips with "white skin privilege" and what that means to people of color trying to participate in the movement. I heard some sad stories last night. We all have to do better.

Thanks again for your amazing comment. I, too, am sorry. ;-)

[-] 2 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

When one uses the opposition's tactics as a way of leveling the 'playing field' one ends up with one of two things...lowering of standards to the opposition's level or raising them...in this case it appears to be the former.

Workable solutions, that can be explained in simple terms, would go a long way to force the opposition to either raise their standards or to jump on the wagon for the ride.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Yeah, here's the problem, and the thing that not only depresses me but totally fucking pisses me off. I have made two separate posts about amending the Constitution to overturn CU v. FEC, get money out of politics, end corporate personhood and re-empower Congress to regulate elections on our behalf. I've even bumped them several times. Those threads have gotten a total of maybe a dozen comments combined. This one is already up over 130.

So even when people provide workable solutions and make an effort to engage in legitimate debate, these kinds of shouting matches is where everyone would apparently prefer to be. So don't fucking lecture me. The sheer naivete in this movement will be its undoing. And the ease with which so many people fell into a trap of their own devising in this thread just serves to prove every fucking point I've been making!

[-] 2 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Did you ever take a public speaking class? First you get their attention, then you present your points, then you debate.

The problem is human nature, we are an argumentative bunch, we'd rather argue than discuss.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

This isn't public speaking at all! Social media is nothing like working to an audience. Of course I've taken public speaking, I TEACH public speaking. Seriously, I may have written this poorly, but you didn't bother reading to the end. Did you ever take a basic speech class? If so, you know that's called "intermittent listening" when it's done in person. The only term I can use for it on the internet is "short attention span theater."

[-] 2 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Well then good. I am not criticizing the writing, only trying to point out a few human nature issues.

Jeez, working with active addicts is easier than trying to communicate with people discussing politics.

Gauge your 'audience'.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Gauging your audience is only an issue if you're trying to be entertaining. Politics isn't entertainment. But perhaps the expectation that everything should be entertaining is part of our problem as a society.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

They are the "baby boomers" getting ready for retirement.

[-] -1 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

hippies were spoilt brats

[-] 3 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Let me see. You make so many generalizations, I can only reply with some words from Mark Twain: "All generalizations are false, including this one."

Of course with your general attitude, you may not even crack a smile. Blaming an entire generation is as ridiculous as blaming an ethnic group or race because of the actions of some.

It takes lots of turds to form a pile of shit, and we're in a pile of shit. It all came from someplace, and it certainly isn't from one generation, the flower children, or any such nonsense. In old detective movies, if the sleuth wanted to track the real villain, he'd always say, "Follow the money." I can only say the same thing to you.

[-] -1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

OK, I'm not arguing the general point anymore because the Boomers that drop in are just too selfish to notice how selfish they are in the very comments they're leaving to protest that I called them selfish. It's really a sight to see.

The real issue is this: I must have become a terrible writer because I couldn't hold everyone's attention to the end, where in the penultimate sentence I say:

"So if it's the mud and feces crowd you're looking for, drop in on Fox Nation or Red State."

It was intended to turn the tables on the conservatrolls who besmirch OWS as dirty hippies. And the number of Boomers who studiously ignored the main thrust is what you see here now. Maybe I was wrong to try but the speed with which I was attacked, and quite viciously, I might add, actually proved the point. A shame really. It would be helpful if we could put conservatrolls on the defensive from time to time. But alas, progressives don't seem to be wired that way.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

I'm glad that you clarified, but your entire post indicates that Boomers form the bulk of reactionary simians, who suckle on Fox pablum or chugalug redstate swill.

I believe evolutionary throwbacks come from all ages, ethnic groups, and races; it just part of the whole evolutionary process we call natural selection.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

"...your entire post indicates that Boomers form the bulk of reactionary simians, who suckle on Fox pablum or chugalug redstate swill."

First off, nice writing! Enjoyed that.

Second, yeah, I actually do think they form the bulk. There are older and younger folk around, of course, but the boomers are still the largest demo by age and they are about 60% conservative, 25% moderate and and 15% liberal. And I think that's being generous.

"I believe evolutionary throwbacks come from all ages, ethnic groups, and races; it just part of the whole evolutionary process we call natural selection."

Well, don't let the conservatrolls overhear you saying that. Sounds like... evolution!

Yeah, you're right but there's a critical mass of Boomers over there, too. And they're quite vocal. And they love telling you how old they are and what they've done in life that is way cooler than yours, etc, etc. It's kinda sick.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Not accepting the theory of evolution, I believe, springs from an innate fear of being too animalistic, which tends to disregard the power of human intellect. Of course if I believed the same as Tea Partyers, Christian Conservatives, etc, I would have already disregarded human intellect.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The two things that have by far the largest impact on all economies are the two things never found in any economics model -- natural disasters and human ingenuity. Amazing.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Economic models are notorious for being wrong.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I completely agree. Well said. The baby boom generation (as a whole) has done more destruction and has been more self centered than any other. They had the spark of freedom early on but then totally cashed in and sold us out....sold their own kids generation out. They need to redeem themselves.

Of course there are plenty of exceptions. Plenty of heroic boomers too. But they are definitely the exception rather than the rule.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

There are indeed plenty of exceptions to the rule. Thanks for the comment.

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

One is bound to get dirty staying on the streets night after night without a proper place to go and bath or launder one's clothing. That, to me, seems a really trivial issue, and rather an inevitability in the struggle to build a mass social movement.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Of course it's trivial. Doesn't stop the meme from having power in certain circles.

[-] 2 points by ancientmariner (275) 2 years ago

I assume, due to the relative effectivness of this post in striking a nerve, we can look forward to a lot more troll posts trying to divide the 99% along generational divides. Next it will be . . . "Didn't you just really HATE your granddad?!!! Damn, remember the way he just sat there puffing on that stupid pipe like a real jackass?!!"

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Mainstream media is already doing that. This was a failed attempt at pinning the meme on the other side. My bad.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Divide and conquer.

Anti-militarism, feminism, environmentalism, the counter-culture, gay liberation, questioning authority - none of these things existed before the Boomers. People today couldn't even imagine how ridgid, conformist, intollerant, and stupid American life was before the Boomers.

The Boomers couldn't turn the tide because of the "silent majority" ie., "the greatest generation," who were great at bring tyrannical, completely ignorant and certain that they were right about everything; utterly, collossally, arrogant, having the psychological self-awareness of a retarded turtle, and refusing to accept that it was not them who won WWII in the first place.

Their parents generation, the ones that lived through the depression and had been deepened by it, and developed a sense of empathy and humility, along with a tremendous inward toughness, were the real greatest generation.

But in the end what is the point of the blame game? There were great members, many great members, of the WWII generation as well.

Humanity is where it is because of the untold numbers of choices made by a thousand generations. The point is, can we change? We are, whether we like it or not, all in this together and that is why I find this post objectionable.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Never heard of "Rebel Without a Cause," eh?

Everything had precursors, including you favorite generation.

And again, I'm getting real tired of people who jump off half way through reading a post and think they know what I was saying. Read it again, all the way through, and see if I was really saying what you think I was.

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

The premise of this forum post is flawed. It boils down to a big generalization about the baby boom generation of which I am one. I'm not selfish so I guess I don't fit into your stereotype. So, according to your grand generalization I must be the exception to the your rule. Your rule, your generalization.

Generalizing, as you did is one of the classical logical fallacies. Good JoB! Bravo!

The Puzzler

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The premise of this post is not the punchline:

"So if it's the mud and feces crowd you're looking for, drop in on Fox Nation or Red State."

Are you sure I was saying what you THINK I was saying?

[-] 2 points by freehorseman (267) from Miles City, Mt 2 years ago

Most of yesterdays hippies agree with OWS.It is yesterdays Romneys Clintons that evade the draft.Most of yesterdays Hippies pay a large percent of there income to the Govt for taxes with No representation.As for the mud and crap plentty in the main st media.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I don't think most of yesterday's hippies agree with OWS. I think most of them hate OWS and vote straight conservative down the line. All you have to do is look at the voting demographics year after year to see the trend. As the Boomers aged, they became not just more conservative, but vehemently conservative.

Boomers make up the largest demographic. By 1980, they represented 31% of the electorate and 55% voted for Reagan. And that's when they were mostly still under 50 years old. The Reagan Democrats are Boomers. And most of them have never looked back.

[-] 1 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I think you raise a good point. Even Bob Dylan votes conservative now. Even Paul McCartney lives in the richest and whitest part of Long Island.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I think a lot of people are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that they aren't, actually, perfect. ;-)

[-] 2 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

This is a reply to HitGirl, PandoraK and AllTrue.

You're memories of the Boomers is a pastiche of nostalgic bullshit. The flower-power movement lasted for about six years and accomplished exactly nothing. They had zero impact on the prosecution of the Vietnam war. Zero! Nobody who ever lived in a commune ever came back to the rest of civilization with a solution for anything. They were not organized like the Wobblies or Birchers that came before them. They had no political goals other than "tune in, turn on and drop out," period. It was hedonism from the get-go, with a patina of ineffectual political activism.

They did NOT march in Selma. They had NOTHING to do with civil rights and by the time the E.R.A. came around, half of them were already switching to the Republican party and the rest weren't far behind. The civil rights activists that came just before the feral fantastics was truly a group that stood their ground, in the face of water cannons and truncheons. Kent State was a big deal that prompted college students all over the country to rise up in protest. But when the exact same thing happened at Jackson State less than two weeks later, nobody cared because the dead kids were black. Where were the hippies? At some concert or something.

The Boomers that avoided the draft AND prosecution had money and connections. Blacks went to war or prison. Remember the scene in "Platoon" when Sheen says, "I volunteered for this shit," and the black guys stand around looking at him like he has three heads. Or the scene where he passes the black dudes huddled in a foxhole, waiting out the fight, getting high and ignoring everything else. You think that was just a invention of the director's mind?

Civil rights!? How dare you!

The only true heroes of that era are the young, lower class men who couldn't get to Canada and risked long prison terms for burning their draft cards. And the hippies surely supported that. But they also were the scum that spat on troops returning from Vietnam, because they believed that everyone had a choice. Gee, that couldn't be your middle class safety net talking, could it? "Why couldn't you just go stay with family connections in Canada, dummy?" Talk about sheltered!

Boomers have always been totally self-absorbed and totally unsympathetic to anyone else, in any condition. As for the battles they fought and won, which ones would those be? Hmm? Name the BIG accomplishment from the flower-power movement that doesn't include Woodstock. Shit, Edward R. Murrow and Fred Friendly did more for migrant farm workers and the minimum wage in one report than the hippies did in their entire lifetimes.

No, they are not still here as a group. Sure, there are a few who retained their progressive outlook and continue to fight the good fight, and I assume you three imagine yourselves in that class. But the vast majority are bigoted Republicans with entitlement complexes now. They have been the single-most powerful generation in American politics for thirty years. Think about that timeline and what has happened to our economy since they became politically active. They have destroyed us and y'all think they're the bulwark?

The solution to America's health care problem is obviously a single-payer system -- Medicare for all. The Boomers, as a group, are against that now because they think that means less for them as they reach retirement age. They don't give a rat's ass about anyone but themselves. Never have and never will.

I'm Gen X and my generation isn't exactly acquitting themselves with grace either, but nobody comes close to the hyper-selfishness of the Boomers. Nobody!

PS - Very typical of a frightened, selfish, manipulative Boomer to say something like this:

"You have more in common with the narrow-minded, fear-mongering and hate-mongering right wing terrorists than you do with the freedom-loving OWS activists."

Couldn't have made a better example of you if I tried. Thanks.

[-] 2 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Evidently you have been meeting the wrong 'boomers'.

It's funny how so many seem to think we are 'boomers' by choice...and it's funny how so many seem to think those who went to Canada had funds to do so, and didn't burn their draft cards first...and it's funny how many seem to not realize how many were conscientious objectors who still went in noncombat capacity...

You claim the hippies weren't at Selma? You'd best look again. You think it was all 'flower power' and Tim Leary? You sure bought the hype.

You mention Woodstock, what was supposed to be maybe 5,000 people in a field. We all know how that turned out. You see footage of the bands and the more sensational stuff, but you don't see the footage of the stump speeches or the booths with information.

In 40-50 years enough of today's OWSers are going to be the Conservatives of tomorrow that the next generation to protest will be telling you what you are trying to tell us (generic you)

Many of the former hippies are Independents not Democrats or Republicans.

I'm sorry you can only read parts of what some of us lived. We few are blessed to witness and participate, however small that participation may be, in a second event.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Pandora, you're being nicer in tone than most so 'll try the same. I recognize that you're trying to "educate" me on what you perceive to be the truth. And I'm not a total jerk. I appreciate your sincerity.

Tim Leary was awesome but where was the posse? There were a few organizers and activists that went south to help. But there was no critical mass among the hippies because they didn't really exist yet. Leary was also in Vacaville prison in California using LSD to reduce the recidivism rate from 80% to 20%. That was real progress he was making. He published and fought hard to get people to listen. Nobody cared. And Boomers have been denigrating him ever since, including, it seems, you.

Everything has been turned on its head. Leary, who was doing ground-breaking research, is the dirty hippie, and the actual dirty hippies, who went on to become right wing lunatics, are regarded as heroes. It drives me bonkers! As you can clearly see. ;-)

[-] 2 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Tim Leary was a failed professor who did too many 'ludes and too much acid, he was not awesome. Do a bit more research on him and his drug concepts. A goodly number of his LSD 'experiments' ended up in the psych ward instead of back in prison.

As I said, I didn't just read about it, I lived it.

Hippies weren't always called hippie, just as yuppies were once called something else.

It seems there is a lot of labeling, which is counter productive to all purpose.

Here's a thought, most likely the former hippies that 'turned into rabid Republicans' most likely did one too many combinations of drugs and burnt their cognitive centers out.

[-] 2 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Well, that 80% to 20% decline was real. The experiments were ended very quickly and no follow-up ever occurred so it's not surprising that some would end up in psyche wards. But when you say you "lived it," I'm assuming you're not talking about hanging out with Leary in Vacaville prison while this was going on. So nobody has a monopoly on the truth.

On your last point, sure, why not? Totally possible. It would explain the reason that so many hang out on Red State and Fox Nation, which was what I said in the original post:

"So if it's the mud and feces crowd you're looking for, drop in on Fox Nation or Red State."

If you had read that far, you may have seen what I was trying to do all along, which was pin the "dirty hippie" meme on the conservatrolls, not antagonize progressives. Progressives may be smart people but tactically, we suck. ;-)

[-] 2 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Pewestlake, I don't think the message is the issue in your posts, but rather the method of delivery...the message gets lost all too easily.

While an online argument can be entertaining, it isn't very productive.

If you had presented the issues with the qualifier that a percentage of former hippies ended up becoming Conservatives and extreme ones at that, you'd have probably gotten quite a bit of agreement from those who still hold the values of social consciousness along with dialogue on the attending issues...

Yes, the opposition may well have entered the fray, but then, maybe, just maybe a few would have rethought their current stance.

Believe it or not, we do have Conservatives arguing the same points we do...not everyone there is an extremist.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Bullshit. You got personally offended and decided to jump in before you even got to the end of the post. That's the end of your story on this thread right there. I'm not an idiot and you're not as smart or savvy as you think you are. And if this movement wants to make headway, people like you are going to have to stop being so fucking naive and easy to manipulate.

I know how to get your attention now. This is why conservatrolls have it so easy. You cannot resist the temptation to lecture. Your buttons are so exposed it's depressing. This movement needs to get a LOT smarter. It has already been infiltrated by counter-revolutionaries. Nobody knows who they are. They are trusted confidantes, commenting on this forum. And nobody has a fucking clue. But you sure know how to sound morally superior, yes you do.

[-] 3 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

I can see you don't appreciate constructive criticism very well.

I've been around this forum for a while, I've gauged the emotional responses to what for many are emotional issues...

You want discussion, offer discussion, not controversy.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I've been on planet earth for a while. I don't suffer fools gladly in any setting. I take "constructive" criticism just fine. See if you can offer some.

As I said, I've offered legitimate, serious discussion plenty of times. This is the most "popular" post I've ever made here. So you tell me what that says about this place. Your naivete is drowning me.

[-] 1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

What you have today is because of the baby boomers - for without their insight, knowledge, expertise, determination, you wouldn't have the internet, wireless phones, I-pods.

Everything you use today was based upon what the "Hypocrite Baby Boomers" established.

Everything else is a spin off from that - the younger generation didn't invent the computer, nor did they go to the moon and they sure as hell didn't invent the internet - and neither did Al Gore.

You never had it so good and all the technology that's out there today is because of the Baby Boomer generation.

[-] 2 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

In general, I lump the technical achievements you cite ("internet, wireless phones, I-pods") not necessarily as good things and certainly not as insightful things.

Although you say, "You never had it so good..." I suggest the opposite is true, for there is a spiritual ineptitude and emptiness in my generation that has largely been caused by the excesses of the boomer generation. You cite the wireless phone? Then you must take credit for the proliferation of the suburbs. You cite the iPod and the Internet? I give you a generation of constantly connected and tuned out youths.

Yes, technology sure has advanced. But what about humanity? How has HUMANITY advanced in any proportional way?

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Your generation wanted it all and if you feel that it caused "emptiness" then so be it. The emptiness you talk about is all the worthless texting, facebooking, tweeting and countless hours used cuddling your electronic devices.

Your generation don't know how to communicate directly with people.

[-] 3 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I believe that's largely because of the coddling we've received from our parents. We've been raised in the middle class, believing that if we get get good grades and go to a good college, then things will work out. We've also been raised to believe that using our intellect as a means of work is more virtuous than using our bodies, which is why necessary jobs like farming, manufacturing, and construction are largely looked down upon now.

My generation wanted nothing, was given everything, and then when we were left to fend for ourselves because the boomer generation allowed jobs to be outsourced, the minimum wage to stagnate, and rent to raise out of control. Now that my generation is growing up and getting into the real world, we're wondering why things aren't as idyllic as our childhoods.

I also like to believe that my generation is also beginning to realize vapid entertainment devices like mobile phones, computers, iPods, etc, aren't as important as genuine, independent human thought--the best of which are still found in books (and the kindle isn't a grand substitution, merely a facsimile).

We are only the sons and daughters of the previous generation. We were raised on what they believed. Shouldn't the parents have some blame in the faults of their kids?

[-] 1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Well, I am sure you realize that the boomer generation wanted to give your generation everything that they didn't have or could.

So, when that happens, what does a person have to look forward toward - nothing - because they have it all.

When I was growing up I worked for what I wanted. If I wanted a bb gun I cashed soda bottles in. If I wanted spending money, I worked at the grocery store.

And when I finally got a job out of high school, I contributed part of it to the family.

I guess the difference between the boomer generation and the X,Y and melinum generation is the boomer generation had goals and worked towards those goals because that was the only way they could get what they wanted.

I guess the reason the X,Y and Melinum generation don't look at it from that perspective is because they were handed everything and now when they are out in the real world they think everything should be handed to them.

Now that is not to say that our schools have brainwashed students into thinking it's ok to fail but you will be rewarded anyway.

That's where we are today. I talk with a lot of younger people and I can see there is no drive to "succede" but instead a "wishful thinking" outlook while wondering why they have no job.

There are jobs out there - lots of jobs but I guess it's a learnd trait to know how get one - It may not be the job they want but when you are starting out in life, you take what you can and build on it.

Somewhere down the road by doing that it improves a persons abilities in knowing that "someone isn't going to give me what I want and I have to go after it".

[-] 2 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

But don't you see that the Boomer generation--the parents of the X, Y, and ME generation--don't take parental responsibility in the outlooks of the proceeding generations? We (I'm part of the ME) were raised always given fish and not being taught how to fish by the Boomers.

And it is definitely a learned trait to find a job. And we are definitely learning how to deal with lower expectations (and huge amounts of student debt). However, the Boomer generation was evidently idle while outsourcing was in its heyday. Now, because of that, my generation has to deal with a pathetic minimum wage and inflated housing and medical costs. Things like that are the reason I think we have it worse than you did.

All of our high expectations are a result of what we were taught. All of our dreams of grandeur are what we were taught by our Boomer elders in the community and the media, which is currently run by the Boomers.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Well, if you know what the problem is - fix it - One thing that a lot of your generation don't understand is that you have to get your own house in order in order to move beyond that.

Meaning that if things for you are screwed up - everything else around you will be screwed up.

Get a handle on it - You don't start out making big bucks when you get out of high school or graduate from college - It just doesn't happen.

It takes time to build wealth - it's not an "instant gratification thing". If you want a job and can't find one - volunteer in a field that you want to work or in another field. Those are starting places in life -

You can't expect to have everything within the first 5 years after you graduate.

[-] 3 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The problem with laying blame entirely on my generation is that we've quite literally been fed the idea that if we go to college, we'll do well.

The thing your generation doesn't understand is that we are your sons and daughters and we are struggling worse than you did. Hell, we can't get our own house in order cause... we can't even afford the rent on our apartment.

Anyway, it's the boomers that fed us the lie of instant gratification (aren't they the drug and sexual liberation generation after all???). Right now we're trying to unlearn that lies we've been brought up on.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Hey, it's easy to place blame and more difficult to do something about it -

The problem with college is is that everyone was told to go and as a result everyone has a degree - like a high school diploma.

What options are left - go back to college and get a masters or Doctrate or find some other field of work. There are jobs out there and there are good paying jobs.

[-] 3 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

What about spiritually fulfilling jobs? Are you a boomer? Don't you see that your viewpoint is merely a purchase into Capitalism?

Don't you see that your statements effectively place the blame on us, and the burden of merely trying to exist on us? Don't you see that you take no responsibility in raising your children?

[-] 2 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

The way you talk about other generation should be considered a Hate Crime, a federal offense. In fact the way later generations are talked about all who are older only shows their innate contempt. This is a serious problem.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Right, everything that was ever invented was invented by Boomers. Shall we include the wheel, the lever and the granary in that list? A few gadgets don't make up for allowing our entire economy to collapse into a black hole of outsourcing, downsizing and protectionism for antiquated industries. Never had it so good? Gee, I guess that's why OWS exists. I can hear the chants now -- "we've never had so good, uh huh - we've never had it so good, uh huh."

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Give me a break will you - you know exactly what I mean. You don't even know what the word "suffer" means.

Let me take away your IPad, Iphone, computer, air conditioning, electricity, running water, and put you back in the era of the great depression - then tell me how bad you have it.

You havn't a clue because you never experienced what people have and as a result of their suffering they made this country a better place to live.

Lets take away all of what you own, put you in a forrest and lets see if you can survive -

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

There it is, the typical Boomer "my generation did everything for you ungrateful mongrels and THIS is how you repay us?" Yes, condescending to other generations, as usual, really helps you make your point... and mine, too. ;-)

I don't have an ipad or an iphone. I drove across America ten times before GPS was invented. I remember the gas lines! I was there! I still have analogue clock radios and land line telephones and standard definition TV and basic cable. I'm not Mr. Dependent-on-my-gadgets for a reason. Because Boomers were the first generation to truly employ planned obsolescence! My 30-year old Kenwood receiver still works great. But all the receivers my friends have bought in the past 20 years have been junk. Put me in a forest, tough guy. I'll be out before sun up. And then we'll all go back in to find you.

[-] 1 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Thank you for your post and your thoughtful defenses thereof.

I'm fairly certain I come from the most attacked generation of all time. I think we were being hated on while still in the womb. Jobs are scarce and they don't pay well, and all the one's that do are just a purchase into the system set up by the previous generations.

I don't need gadgets. I don't WANT gadgets. I want nature. But I can't find it. Suburbs have taken it over. I had no say in that, and now I'm facing the consequences.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Exactly. But don't complain or you're just ungrateful. I weep for the generations that come after mine (Gen X). As America turns more libertarian, the dog eat dog reality will hurt the youngest (and oldest) generations the most. It's already happening. If Obama's second term doesn't alter this trajectory at least a little bit, I don't know what will be left.

Thanks for your poignant comments, too. You didn't have to come into this shooting gallery but you did and I respect and admire that.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (34898) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

How old are you?

The Peace movement had a huge impact. You need a refresher on recent history.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The peace movement had a huge impact? Vietnam, Granada, Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iraq and, coming soon, Iran. Perhaps we can say Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo and Libya were "justifiable" but if the goal was no more war, well...

I suppose you're saying we would have been involved in many more wars if not for the peace movement of the 60s. Perhaps you're right, but I still think it's not much of a track record.

Oh, and I'm 43. I'm the youngest of seven. Three of my siblings are firmly planted in the Boomer generation. Two of them agree with me on this issue, the other one is a Republican. ;-)

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (34898) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Vietnam was what the peace movement was all about. The survivors of which are the parents of today's upcoming boom baby's.

Granada? Cubans attacking an island and college got slapped down in what? 5 days? What was so wrong about that action? Are you saying we should let other countries go on uncontested campaigns of conquest? There were American students there, should they have just been abandoned?

The uprising in Panama? While we were in control of the Canal? The Fastest east west travel between two oceans two different hemispheres of the world? Height of the cold war? No we would not want to see a major conflict in the area.

Iraq & Afghanistan and Iran brings us now to modern history and the advent of OWS OCCUPY 99% Sierra Club Council of Concerned Scientists etc. etc. etc. world wide etc. And the movements against corruption.

You need to step back for a moment and regain some perspective.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Vietnam didn't end any earlier.

The Granada invasion was based on a pretext -- nobody was holding students hostage and nobody had threatened them. Granada had a right to self-determination, even if we disagreed with their choice of siding with Cuba. Reagan's action was condemned by all our European allies.

There was no "uprising" in Panama. The invasion had nothing to do with the canal, which had already been given back to Panama on paper, if not in fact. It was a police action to arrest Manuel Noriega on Federal drug trafficking charges. It is illegal to arrest a sitting foreign head of State. And this was also condemned by our allies.

You need to do a better job with history if you're going to ask me to step back and regain some perspective. My perspective is long and sharp and informed by historical accuracy. It is not wise to become an apologist for American military aggression.

[-] 1 points by ReasonIsgood (9) 2 years ago

The "peace" protesters just kinda don't want to talk about what happened to the South Vietnamese after they lost. The America bad crowd kinda overlooked just who it was we were fighting. They can never imagine anything worse than us and then hide their eyes when they're again proven wrong. There's a hilarious interview where Jane Fonda basically runs away when asked if the protesters have any responsibility for what happened to the South.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Vietnam was one giant mind-fuck on the entire country. No doubt about it.

My earliest TV memories are of watching war footage on the news. Maybe that's where this thread came from... ;-)

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (34898) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

WoW talk about a problem with reality. Seek Help.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

One of the most mealy-mouthed things to say to a person is "get help." I don't know what game you like to play, DKA, but not only are you full of shit, you're becoming a certified asshole in the process. Don't like my opinion -- fine. Use revisionist history -- not fine. Call me crazy -- fuck you!

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (34898) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Your not my type.

You have completely lost touch with reality.

Your not just a little confused.

You are a raving lunatic.

Experience a psychotic break?

Well you wouldn't know that.

Go see your family perhaps they will get you help.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I have written extensively to defend this post all day today. I have been honest and open and taken my lumps when deserved. Your little scud missiles are nothing more than bile you squeeze out for the lulz. What a waste.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (34898) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Your writing today?

Yes agreed - a waste.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Well, you're a waste every day. So I got that going for me. ;-)

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (34898) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hurt feelings? I am so sorry. You just picked the wrong day to go batshit about the generation that formed the 1st peace movement and who stood up in direct conflict with the government of the day.

BTW you were never really specific about which boomers you had the problem with.

There was the WWII baby boom.

There was the Korean war baby boom.

There was the Vietnam war baby boom.

Baby booms happen after major conflicts.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

No, you're not sorry. You're just an ass. Go believe whatever you like.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

This is what you decide to write on therising's post about the the spiritual direction of OWS:

"Did you see that that pewe--- whatever character just went bonkers today?

Complete shithouse rat mad.

Unbelievable."

I won't soil his excellent thread with a response nor will I dwell on it here. I just think you have a lot of nerve calling someone crazy when you're the one ranting about them in another corner of the forum. As I said before, DKA, I haven't figured you out quite yet but I think I'm starting to. And if I come to learn or reveal that you're really a conservatroll in OWS clothing, I'm going to have a lot of fun with you. Count on it.

[-] 1 points by rayl (1007) 2 years ago

you are correct dkatoday, the political movements of the 60's completely changed american society.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

What this poster forgets (or maybe just doesn't know) is the majority of Americans weren't "hippies" when hippies existed (hippies were a minority, even within their own age group). Most baby boomers were never hippies, they didn't protest anything in the 1960's, and for the most part, they were probably just as pro-war, pro-authoritarianism, pro-segregation, and pro-everything bad, as they are today. I'm sure some former hippies did become more conservative (or libertarian), some probably even became narcissists, but I strongly doubt this is true for most of them.

[-] 2 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

What we lovingly refer to as "hippies" were people who "dropped out" of American Society in the 1960s. They rejected American values and norms. LSD and marijuana were the drugs of choice as opposed to prescription drugs and alcohol. They were disenfranchised, typically in college or just graduated and sought an alternative lifestyle of living communally. They were more socialist-oriented. Hippies weren't interested in changing society, they wanted to get away from it and create their own. Therein lies the chief philosophical difference between hippies and OWS.

They were called Hippies because they were "hip." They were copied and Hippie fashion was co opted so the idea became that in order to appear young and hip, one would wear clothing similar to what Hippies wore, longer hair styles, large granny glasses eyewear, etc. A fashion statement. Tie-dye, bell bottoms, paisley print, etc. Some hippies protested the war in Vietnam, and the polluting of the air and water.

All of the other rights movements sprang forth from the civil rights movement, I believe.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I don't see much difference between the "hippies" and OWS. I think there are far more similarities than differences.

The hippies of then "dropped out" to create their own "societies", living communally, as an opposition/rejection of social norms and/or the status quo. This was no more a solution than "we don't need politicians to build a better society", a GA in every backyard and direct democracy is.

What did the "hippies" accomplish again?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

some people have no desire to accomplish anything .. they just want to live and let live .. interesting point April, there is something to this .. perhaps not all groups of people want an aggressive rat race society. but is there a place for them ?

[-] 6 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

It's always going to be a rat race. I think most of the hippies found the rat race preferable to communes.

The issue is which "rodents" are making the rules. Most people today are more like hamsters on a hamster wheel. Running faster and getting nowhere. While our Congress-critters write the rules for the Corpo-Rats. : )

[-] 3 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Yes. It's time we start using the power of democracy to change the rules.

We the people have the power !

Democracy is more powerful than money.

[-] 2 points by ancientmariner (275) 2 years ago

It will always be a rat race, only if we are willing to remain rats. We are capable of being more than rats, if we only admitted it, but it starts from within.

We cannot transform society until we transform ourselves. Instead of chosing to be rats we could, through an exertion of will, become something more akin to the albatross, spreading our wings, taking the terrifying plunge beyond the precipise of uncertainty, to reach for the heavens, rather than spending our God-given energies in the subterraenan and beastial grappling, tooth and claw among our own kind, for carrion.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

That sounds about right ...

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Francis, yours is the most salient negative response and you're right. The problem is, everyone from that generation now claims Woodstock as their own. The entire generation is described and accepted as one unit. And Boomers have never shied away from that. They like being in the flock. I criticize my generation frequently but NOBODY critiques the Boomers out of fear. That's why so many people are hating on this post.

I'm sorry, but the Boomers have been the most destructive force in America for three decades and I'm not pretending that isn't true anymore. They have brought this economy to its knees by demanding politicians pander to their every whim and getting their way because they're such a large voting block. They're like the Bush Jr. White House -- we're so powerful, we make our own reality. Well, reality has come home to roost and it's the Boomers that brought it upon us.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Our parents and grandparents are boomers, every generation says the same shit about the preceding generation, and so I find nothing compelling or productive about this rant of yours. No one here will start hating their parents or grandparents, because they're not mentally ill (so give it the fuck up).

[-] 2 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

There's a good reason every generation castigates the previous generation:

Society isn't yet perfect. To not pick apart the imperfections of the preceding generations is to suggest we've become a perfect society. The imperfection in our current society have their roots in previous generations. We SHOULD pick apart the Boomers; we should point out the failures of the "Greatest" Generation.

I'm from the "Me" generation, and I can tell you from this youthful perspective that I'm quite upset at the outsourcing the Boomers allowed to occur; at the way Boomers allowed minimum wage to not only not index with inflation but to not get min-wage to outpace it; to allow Socialism to become as vitriolic a word as Fascism or Communism; to allow media to really become junk.

One has to admit, the Boomer generation is pretty outspoken about what they consider to be their greatest years. They take credit for the 60's, but for no decade after that. They say the Beatles are the greatest thing in music, but forget everything before and after--from Bach to Nirvana. They take credit for civil rights, but not for Citizens United.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I'm quite sure if you talk to ten different baby boomers, you'll get ten different perspectives. It's fine to critique the preceding generation, as long as it's not hateful, and done in a respectful way, even though I still don't like it ... because I find the blame game (at least in many cases) to simply lack sophistication. I always loved to listen to Christopher Hitchens, but when he went on and on about circumcision, appealing to its practice in remote prehistory, I felt it was excessive, unnecessary, and silly. The reason is we have to compare attitudes (and things like rituals) to circumstances. It's a notoriously difficult thing to do, and I don't really see the point anyway.

I'd rather build bridges than walls.

[-] 0 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I think the concern for the Boomers is that they like to take a lot of credit but no blame. It's like when your buddy at the bar starts bragging about his exploits, and then you make fun of him to take him down a notch to reality.

You can definitely hear a lot of this in the news. There will often be talk of things like Woodstock, the Beatles (are they supposed to be the be-all-end-all of music or something?), JFK, Martin Luther King, etc. But everything after that, for whatever reason, falls upon the proceeding generations. As if somehow the Boomers just fell off the planet and Reagan was Generation X's fault, like Columbine was Generation Y's fault, like Iraqi Freedom or the economic collapse was my generation's fault

Of course, I'm not sure what part of my critique was hateful. I don't think I suggested we should hang the Boomers high; but rather that there is a lack of insight provided by the Boomers into their history that doesn't correlate to their braggadocio.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Reagan was definitely the boomers, because I don't think gen x'ers were even old enough to vote at that time. But anyway, yeah okay, fuck the Beatles (that's ancient music), give me punk rock :)

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Bankers, hedge fund managers, Fed governors and corrupt politicians are grandparents, too. Shall OWS pull its punches on those people because little Suzie will be sad? And suggesting I want people to start hating their grandparents is just plain stupid. I mean, really!

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

No, OWS should not pull its punches on those people, but we don't have to dig into baby boomers in order to "not pull punches" on those people.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Yeah, I opened a can of worms, but a lot of people completely missed the point. I don't know if it was bad writing on my part or bad reading on theirs but the progressives who went off on me were doing so for reasons that weren't really there in the original post.

Taking a perceived weakness of OWS and projecting it onto Red State and Fox Nation is a role reversal for the conservatrolls. And maybe this is why progressives are no good at conservatroll tactics - we're far too earnest and wind up tripping our own people up in the process. Still, there has to be a way to turn those tables without sparking an internecine war. I'm still searching. ;-)

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I've had discussions with some conservatives. I mean, some are just here to troll (and there's definitely some totally stupid fuckers, who all we can really do is just ignore, but they're usually the type even the average conservative wouldn't like), but there's some who turn out to be reasonable (and they will try to interact with well informed rebuttals to what they're trying to say).

I just like countering misinformation with facts, and supporting those facts with authoritative & credible sources. Even if you don't get them to rethink their position, at least you take the wind out their rhetoric (and intelligence gets respect, even from those who disagree with you). This is about the best we can do. No need to get bogged down in the endless quagmire of gamesmanship and hyperbole (although sometimes mockery is fun, or we just get pissed off) :)

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Now you're an idiot. I'm not asking anyone to "hate." I'm describing a fucking problem. Nobody has to hate to acknowledge a mistake or an unintended consequence or a failure. And NO, not every generation says the same shit. NOBODY pisses on the WWII generation for good reason. Grow the fuck up!

[-] 3 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Well gee wiz genius ... my mom is a baby boomer, she worked her ass off, went through all sorts of trails and tribulations, all to raise me and my siblings. So that's at least one baby boomer who isn't a sociopathic narcissist. And actually, people did piss on the WWII generation, since it was essentially the WWII generation who those dirty hippies you love to hate had to fight to end segregation.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Three of my siblings are boomers. My father served in the Air Force during Korea (stationed in Germany). One of my brothers was an EW in the Navy. I've been a volunteer firefighter since I was 18. What does that have to do with criticism of boomers? Nothing. Same as your anecdote about mom.

As for ending segregation, see brochomsky's comment.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Well, how is pointing to a few ass holes who occupy the face of this earth, like George Bush, not also appealing to an anecdotal example? Yes, there are some ass holes who happen to be baby boomers, there's also some ass holes in gen x, gen y, and the millennium gen :)

Newsflash: earth has many ass holes, in all different age groups. I see no evidence to suggest that baby boomers have been any more or less narcissistic compared to any other demographic under similar circumstances. I surely won't disparage them for trying to avoid the Vietnam way, and I served in Iraq (2005). But if you want to say that since Reagan, a certain Ayn Rand type of uber-narcissism has influenced a certain segment of our population, okay, I can agree with that ... but that's not exclusively a baby boomer issue. I know plenty of Ayn Rand fans in their 20's.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Look at the original post and think about how it ends. I refer everyone looking for the "dirty hippies" to Red State and Fox Nation. You have all studiously missed the entire fucking point. Yes, I broad stroked Boomers, in exactly the same way "liberals" are broad stroked by the conservatrolls. I was actually throwing the people who would prefer OWS not be associated with flower power a bone, by taking the perceived weakness of liberals -- dirty hippies -- and putting it on conservatrolls. Which, by the way, just so happens to be true! The most selfish back then are still the most selfish today and they vote Republican.

But the speed with which you all jumped down my throat actually proved my point about Boomer selfishness. Odin is among the only people to get where I was coming from. I'm not THAT bad of a writer, for crying out loud. You really should have picked up the thrust. I got caught up in the argument but the reality of the post is, it wasn't really aimed at progressive Boomers. I KNOW they still get it. Sheesh!

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Shit dude ... I'm far from a baby boomer (although my balls feel kind-a saggy right now) :)

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Strangely, I think mine are too. ;-)

[-] 1 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Actually, it was the black community that really ended segregation. I'm not sure if the "hippies" really had anything to do with it. They weren't the Rosa Park's, the MLK's, or part of the Little Rock Nine. I don't think the "dirty hippies" had too much to do with the actual actions of desegregation. They were more or less along for the ride, there to voice their support--but the Civil Rights Act of 1964 had already happened by the time the hippie movement was just getting out of its gestation.

Anyway, now my generation has to right the wrongs played against the Muslims in our society by the previous generations.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I don't know where you've been dude, but it wasn't only baby boomers disparaging Muslims over the past decade (it was everyone, with the exception of a tiny minority of very liberal people).

[-] 1 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I was in elementary school in Cambridge, Massachusetts (i.e. LIBERAL Massachusetts) when 9/11 happened. I was 13 years old. My generation had very little political sway in what happened during the Bush administration and the anti-Muslim sentiment that followed. But you're right in that it wasn't only the Boomers that harbored these thoughts and supported a racist administration and wars of bigotry. After all, we've been an anti-Islam/anti-Arab nation for some time.

Although there are pockets of my generation that are racist, I don't find such a position nearly as popular as in the previous generations, including the Boomers.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I don't think 13 year old's had "any" sway ... so I guess you're off the hook :)

And yeah, hopefully it get's better as time goes on (such is life).

[-] 2 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

pewestlake, you need to get a few more paint brushes...or should you be lumped in along with the rest of OWS in with the Young Conservative movement when the next event happens?

OWS is not a majority, nor were the hippies. I don't like being lumped in with any group regardless of your thoughts on the matter.

Divisive is what your postings are. It's not doing any good either way.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Oh please!

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (34898) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The Hippies are not responsible they fought and they fought hard. There are greedy and corrupt of all ages, they have had their way for the last few decades and yes these are the children born after WWII. But not the majority. Look around you today how many have stood up yet to fight the very apparent corruption. It takes a movement and dedication and determination to make a difference to get the word out to spread the truth. Do not belittle the hero's of past fights.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The story of the hippie cutting his hair and joining daddy's business in the mid-70s is ridiculously common. And now that guy is complaining about "Obamacare." I am not belittling the heroes of past fights. The hippies didn't win anything and the Boomers that did were on the wrong side. You don't get to be hero for losing or for winning one for the Empire.

That said, I know this stuff ain't easy. But the first step in becoming a truly progressive activist is to stop prioritizing your personal needs before the health of the larger community -- not "communism," just not "me first" all the time. And I'm sorry, but all I can hear when Boomers speak is "me, me, me."

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (34898) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Not on this site.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

You're right... until today. ;-)

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (34898) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yep an outstanding crop of trolls today. They show up in droves when OWS has an event going on.

Adds such a festive flare to the day.

[-] 2 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

My 2 sisters are a baby boomer hippies. The are both republicans currently entitled to everything on earth. They hate the young and are jealous of their vitality. I agree, completely. They are extreme hypocrites. It is very hard to love such selfish evil sisters.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Sorry if you know two people who you consider "baby boomer hippies and throw in the word "hypocrites". That may be true of them but it is not true of all "baby boomers".

What you have today is because of the baby boomers - for without their insight, knowledge, expertise, determination, you wouldn't have the internet, wireless phones, I-pods.

Everything you use today was based upon what the "Hypocrite Baby Boomers" established.

Everything else is a spin off from that - the younger generation didn't invent the computer, nor did they go to the moon and they sure as hell didn't invent the internet - and neither did Al Gore.

You never had it so good and all the technology that's out there today is because of the Baby Boomer generation.

[-] 0 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

Yeah it takes village of multiple generations, not one single generation. You only show the narcissism of that generation that I was speaking about. Thanks for making my point so evident.

[-] 1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

All I said was the boomer generation provided your generation with all the conveniences you have today - I was dispelling your comments about the boomer generation being hypocrites - you may know two but that's probably all you know.

[-] 0 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

I think the lady doth protest too much. You must feel guilty about something. Are you saying no baby boomers are hypocrites? I'm saying most of the baby boomers I know are hypocrites. That doesn't mean all. I wonder why you took it that way. I think the lady doth protest too much.

[-] 2 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

I am not saying that there aren't any "baby boomer" hypocrites - I'm just saying that there are a lot of positive things that the "baby boomers" did and as a result made our country a better place to live.

[-] 1 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

There are a lot of things sure, but that doesn't exclude that there are also a lot of baby boomer hypocrites & that they are currently doing a lot of bad. A person is not a snapshot & neither is a generation. Once good can become bad. I know a ton of soulless baby boomers who work corporate. These people have not one idea of their own and are spin doctors of so much BS. They are so afraid of losing their high paying jobs that they would do anything to keep them.

[-] 2 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Well maybe it's not because they are "so afraid of losing their high paying job" as you claim as much as "they are in the sunset of their life" and as a result want to hang on what they have worked all their lives for.

You see, you are probably around 23 or so so your life is ahead of you. Lets put you in their place and with their bills and their responsibilities. Do you really think they got where they are today by just walking away from a job because they were not happy with it.

You have a long life in front of you and I will say this - if you along with the rest of the "Y" and melinum" generation don't get your act together, 20 years from now you will be right where you are today.

Protesting on Wall Street isn't the solution - Lobbying congress is. There was a post yesterday asking about how to lobby congress.

I couldn't believe that 20 or so people responded complaining about lobbyists but not one provided info on how to do it.

What does that tell people who read these posts - No one has any idea about anything and the OWS wonder why the news media aren't coverning them anymore with the exception of a violent action.

[-] 3 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

"Protesting on Wall Street isn't the solution - Lobbying congress is."

I'll never understand why it should be one or the other...Protest, make noise, wake up the sleeping nation...AND Lobby, get in the trenches and get some dirt on you...and VOTE...don't like something? Change it.

[-] 1 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

The toothless get ruthless. I get it. Socrates didn't go corporate, so there is some hope for some of the oldies. You seem unable to be persuaded and think you have a monopoly on truth & reality. If our forefathers thought like you we wouldn't even have this country. They would have died for their beliefs. The baby boomers are too complacent to die for what they believe in. You are only proving my point and showing your fear of death. The young have no fear of death & are invincible. They live on in ideas and are immortal. Old age is no excuse for apathy & impotence.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

All right then you tell me why there are jobs out there and people are complaining about not being able to get one.

Nebrasks is at 4% - and they are looking for people to work in the oil fields.

What do you have to say about that?

[-] 2 points by AllTrue (2) 2 years ago

So you think the conteintious objectors who burned their draft cards and protested the Viet Nam war should be prosecuted? You think the state has the right to draft the most vulnerable and poorest Americans and send them off to die? And those who refuse to be forced to die for the state should be arrested? That's what you believe? You sound more like an authoritarian tyrant than a OWS activist. Your anger is misplaced . You condemn an entire generation and in so doing you act just like those who oppose OWS. You are no different than the OWS detractors who accuse ALL of us of be being dirty hippie rapists because of the actions of a few individuals. By lumping all of the Baby Boomer generation together you do exactly what the members of Fox Nation and Red State do when they use the acts of a very small minority of OWS activists to denigrate the entire movement. You have more in common with the narrow-minded, fear-mongering and hate-mongering right wing terrorists than you do with the freedom-loving OWS activists.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Very well put AT. Not only are there a lot of Boomers in OWS, but many of the young people who attend the rallies, marches, etc. have the full support of their parents...who taught them that some things in life are worth fighting for. Nevertheless, pewestlake is right in implying that some of us became self-centered, and sold out their principles....perhaps not unlike some in OWS will do down the road a bit. Maybe someone....in 20-30 years will be writing a similar indictment on his generation....and then he will realize how unfair it is to denigrate a whole generation.

[-] 1 points by brochomsky (208) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I hope someone denigrates my whole generation in decades to come. Then I will know the progress we started truly is happening.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

That's a positive way to look at it.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I wouldn't target the whole generation if other generations weren't being similarly targeted, mostly by Boomers. The term "welfare queen" is uttered by a boomer more than any other generation. They described Gen X as stupid, Gen Y as listless and the Millenials as thugs. Every other generation in America, except the "greatest," is shat upon by the boomers daily. They are the people out there saying that younger generations have to work to earn their keep and that Grandma is just going to have to suck it up and pay more for health care, after receiving more handouts than any generation that came before them.

I know the criticism is harsh and that I'm pushing buttons here. But look at how easy it is to push Boomers' buttons. Look at how thin-skinned everyone is. You'd think this was a debate about Israel for all the heat. The generations on either side of them spend far less time whining about themselves than Boomers. Only one commenter who disagrees with me has even acknowledged that I might be right about anything.

There is NO criticism that Boomers will accept. They own up to nothing. And the responses to this post, which was designed more as a defense of OWS than an attack on Boomers, has degenerated instantly into a Boomer-fest. The instant somebody says anything tangentially related to Boomers, they jump on the attack. In trying to show how not self-centered Boomers are, everyone here is essentially shouting "you're offending ME and I don't like that."

Well, Boomers have been the center of the American political universe for three decades and I'm pretty pissed off at what they've done to my country and the global economy. The 1% had such an easy time converting the economy to their ends because Boomers were so easy to pander to. Smash the ATC union? OK. Welfare to workfare? OK. Medicare part D? OK, until I retire then we'll have to fix it. Escalate the war on drugs with paramilitary forces in Colombia? OK. Seize Manuel Noriega in an illegal war? OK. Whatever, as long as I get my benefits. If the Boomers are such a great, progressive generation with so much political clout, why didn't they stop any of those things?

How can anyone say that any generation, including my Gen Xers, have been successful in creating a better America? By almost every measure, we've been stagnant or going backwards for decades. Gays beaten to death, blacks murdered with impunity, war escalation all over the globe, a defense budget bloated beyond all recognition and a working class on life support. How is anything in the last three decades described as a success? And who has been at the vanguard of American political life in that time?

Yes, I'm being deliberately provocative now but when will someone finally take responsibility for the lack of progress? The 1% didn't act alone. They had help. I'm sure nobody in the Boomer generation WANTED to destroy the American economy, but their selfishness has made it easy. I can't think of any other generation that has been catered to as much or complained as loudly. Not a one. It is not possible that the condition our nation now finds itself in has nothing to do with the Boomers. It is a mathematical impossibility. So when are we going to hear Boomers owning up to their own mistakes?

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes, your post was very provacative...which is good as it does give my generation time to reflect as to where we went wrong. Nothing is ever black or white though...it's usually gray. In my previous comment I did not deny that my generation..the Boomers bear responsibility for SOME of where we are today, and obviously we are not in a good place.

Some of what went wrong could indeed be blamed on selfishness, but mostly I think it should be blamed on taking our eyes off the road...losing our ability to think critically...becoming victims of the corporate media...and simply not realizing that a democracy is only as good as its citizens are involved.

Like I mentioned in another post, over the years, I have sent many letters to the editor on such topics as racism...xenophobia including Islamaphobia....the war on drugs...the wars (with bombs)....the prison-industrial complex, and campaign financing. My dad also left the comforts and ignorance of white America to take part in MLK's March on Washington in 1963. And on MLK day I marched with a group of OWS people from Zuccotti Park all the way up to Riverside Church at 120th St. to celebrate his life. I proudly showed off the button my dad brought back which said Equal Rights in '63. Although obviously, I am not a good writer...I tried in my own little way to wake people up... to turn things around, and yes sometimes it was a lonely experience.

I have protested the Vietnam War, The Iraq War, and the Patriot Act. My crowning achievement though is in raising three enlightened daughters who look at life through a wide lens...not the narrow one that most people look through. All three of my daughters are out there in the world making it a better place in a multitude of ways. They are my legacy.

OK, I probably got off on a different tangent there, as I often do when talking about my kids...sorry. The point that I am trying to make is, I am not so different than other people my age who tried to do the right thing in life, which is raise a family with good values, and keep a roof over their heads. While being in the midst of the hormone raging child-raising battle though....it is very easy to take your eye off the ball when it comes to other seemingly...at the time anyway...unimportant things, ie. the detrimental effects of neoliberal economics. Still though...I will accept my share of blame for what went wrong.

Your generation will be here longer than me. This is unquestionably your revolution. Consider my support for OWS as reparations for some of our failures. :) :)

[-] 4 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I didn't mean to accuse you of denying any responsibility personally. It was a product of answering multiple comments in succession. I think this point is quite valid:

"Some of what went wrong could indeed be blamed on selfishness, but mostly I think it should be blamed on taking our eyes off the road...losing our ability to think critically...becoming victims of the corporate media...and simply not realizing that a democracy is only as good as its citizens are involved."

I'm not sure I fully agree but I see where at least a portion of the problem is exactly as you described. As wages flattened and work weeks lengthened and two incomes became necessary to sustain a decent quality of life, it became easy to ignore the issues that seemed distant. But some of your peers knew what they were doing when they did it and some of them just stopped caring.

Odin, you've been on these boards way longer than I have but in the short time I've been commenting here, I recognize you as one of the most thoughtful progressives in the forum. Your comments are always based on the facts and you rarely descend to taunts, as I am obviously prone to do.

As a result, your personal story is no surprise to me. I know I painted with a broad brush but that antagonism is what gets the conversation started sometimes. But I know people like you from the Boomer generation -- serious and aware of the issues and doing the best they can with what they have available. And, most importantly, raising children that are awake. I can only hope that my future children (my wife and I will start trying this summer) will be as well guided as yours.

This is actually the revolution my generation should have sparked in the 90s. But Gen X was too in thrall with video games and sounding cynical about everything. We're wiser now but too many of my peers are late to the party. I don't let anyone off the hook, me included. I'm actually a pretty good writer, son of a three-time Edgar Award winner. I SHOULD have sent more letters to the editor when I was younger. But it all seemed like such a joke to us back then. Nobody's laughing now. But the one thing we actually didn't do was complain. Because Gen X saw complaining as just another part of the charade. It's no mistake that "emo" emerged from our era. Oh, the angst! ;-)

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I agree. We gen x'ers should have been in the streets. What's weird is that so many gen y'ers bought right into the game. We were too smart for that in many cases but not smart enough to organize and CHANGE the game. I was frustrated throughout the 90's that we couldn't get it together. From Tiananmen Square to the Free Tibet movement to Rodney King beating, we should have organized and stood up as a group as gen x and done more than just say "fuck consumerism"....we should have done something about it. We're now realizing that we could have and still can. We and the boomers can still redeem ourselves by getting our collective eye back on the damn ball!! :)

[-] 2 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Right on! And I learned that from a hippie! ;-)

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Thanks again, and I have learned so much in the past six months from many people I am sure that are less than half my age. More importantly, I have learned to look at life through their eyes. Being the old timer that I am...here's my advice to you, 1. I'm sure you already know...never quit learning, and 2. Never let your baby eat blueberries with good clothes on. Those damn stains never come out! Now back to my rocking chair...or maybe a bike ride. ;-) Also I did accidentally delete one of my comments.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

You're right, I never will stop learning. Here's my most recent exchange here, which I think may even be an example...

"[-] 1 points by ancientmariner (127) 7 hours ago

I assume, due to the relative effectivness of this post in striking a nerve, we can look forward to a lot more troll posts trying to divide the 99% along generational divides. Next it will be . . . "Didn't you just really HATE your granddad?!!! Damn, remember the way he just sat there puffing on that stupid pipe like a real jackass?!!"

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (689) from Brooklyn, NY 0 minutes ago

Mainstream media is already doing that. This was a failed attempt at pinning the meme on the other side. My bad."

And I'll remember that blueberry thing!

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

That was far out man...er...I mean awesome. Don't become spineless though.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Good point.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Dam right we can redeem ourselves. :) :)

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Cheers to that!! :) :). And cheers to you for being on of many great exceptions. I spent an evening in the late 80's with a great baby boomer named Abbie Hoffman. It was just him and I playing pool for about 3 hours and I enjoyed getting to know him. Even picked up a few tips on nonviolent direct action. Hoffman had a good heart and, despite his flaws, he was WONDERFULLY provocative and had a fabulous sense of humor to go along with his angst. My favorite moment was when he gathered over 100,000 people (way before the age of twitter folks) to surround the pentagon and mock levitate it. It was so twisted and wonderful. Befuddling to the military state.

On another note: think about when king was killed.... He had just started to link the peace movement with the civil rights movement. The freedom of information act has helped us uncover FBI documents that show the FBI survilleiled King's widow for over two years to make sure she did not connect the same dots publicly. How dangerous it must have felt to the powers that be...the thought that disaffected whites and disaffected African Americans could join together to form one movement and ... Become..... The 99%................ And what are we seeing now? . . . Sure puts the harshness of the response in perspective.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Cool..did you beat him in pool? It would be neat if he could levitate the NYPD! I try to keep a sense of humor on this forum too, but I think that some people might take it the wrong way. It is not that I don't take this all very serilously..I do..it's just I suspect that their will be some dark days ahead, and while we have the chance to bring some fun into this forum, we should.

Riverside Church at 120th St. is where King formally broke from the Johnson administration in 1967 when he gave his famous Beyond Vietnam Speech. In that speech he brought up the inequality of the draft which caused many more poor people, especially people of color to be sent to Vietnam. I consider this past MLK day with my fellow OWS protesters... the most memorable in my career with these radicals! :-) Seriously after hiking all the way from Liberty Square to St John The Devine Church at 112th St....and then a candle-light march to Riverside and the great speakers, singers, etc...I will never forget that night.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

What a lovely and heartwarming experience that must have been. Beautiful. That feeling of unity and the sense of humor you speak of... It seems both are so vital. We need the seriousness and tactical strategic power of King and the humor and playfulness of Hoffman to both be with us. Both are essential. Those are both different sides of the same defiance coin that together can capture the imagination of millions of frustrated Americans.

If this movement can help those disaffected poor and middle class Americans and loosely knit them together for a time, we just might break the stranglehold corporations / the 1% have on this great nation as a new era, a new way of life will have a chance to take root.

Abbie Hoffman was a total pool shark by the way, he beat me in nearly every game and had me laughing and on the edge of my seat the entire time. He had a playful spirit that was magnetic and unstoppable. He had his own version of a spirit dogs couldn't bite.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes, it was a beautiful experience, and having my Equal Rights in '63 button (which my dad brought back from DC) pinned to the beautiful home-made scarf that my daughter Holly made me...topped it off just right. I had many inquiries as to how I got that button, and I was very proud to tell them that I was at least 2nd generation...and the 3rd has been nurtured... of people who know that some things in life are worth fighting for. I did miss meeting my sister who was in town that night from Florida with friends, but she understood.

I agree too that this movement has to be based in defiance. The irony...I mean how ludicrous is it that dissent is trying to be stifled...violently in some cases for people who are trying to make this a better, more just world...while bankers who have caused untold human misery throughout the world get off with impunity...and still roam free to ride rough-shod over our lives.

I have said this all before, but I will say it again. I believe that this movement has the chance to not only bring together the poor and middle-class, but I also think that we can also reach out to the center on the political spectrum, and even a little to the right of center. I therefore do not like when my fellow bloggers keep trying to make this a partisan issue because we will then lose our ability to make these inroads. GK who is a wonderful contributor to this forum, and I are at odds over this. THIS very simply is about right and wrong...and what has been, and continues to go on in this country is terribly wrong..no matter what political ideology you hold.

I think that many people just don't know how to play on any other field other than a partisan one...where everyone digs their heels in and starts exchanging facts and figures to justify their point of view. This usually turns into nasty exchanges that we unfortunately have become so accustomed to. It the infighting.. the divisions is also what our politicians have relied on.. even promoted to keep their plutocracy in place. We all have a commonality though...and that is we have all been screwed by this system in some way from family owned farms who see laws written for the corporate farms...to people who have seen their chance for a golden retirement go down the tubes....to the small businesses that can't get loans because bankers are lending the money to corporations or making more money playing casino-type games.....to people who see their social security put in jeopardy while we continue to waste billions/trillions feeding the military industrial complex...and to kids who can't afford to pay off their college loans while working at Walmart, etc., etc. My point is the potential of the coalition...that we can bring together... of disaffected people in this country that was brought about by our corrupt financial and political institutions is enormous. It should be our job to reach out to these people....and the best way to do that is by staying on the high road. And by doing so...we are setting the example of the way we want..not only our politics to be conducted, but the way that we want the world to be.

Although I wish that I could get my point across better than I do...I try hard not to alienate those who disagree with my point of view providing of course that it is based on deep-seated beliefs....however misguided they MAY be, or not based in fact. Assholes are another story though. I know that I am repeating myself from an earlier comment several months ago....but I remember going back and forth in a testy manner with a conservative guy on this forum who I noticed was from Kansas. I almost caved, but rather I then told him about the two farmers that I met at Zuccotti Park that had come all the way from the mid-west somewhere, and were bitching about either Monsanto and/or laws that were written to the severe detriment of family farmers. I couldn't remember exactly. I never did hear back from him...but I like to think that I left him something to think about. That is one of my goals in this forum, but admittedly I do not always succeed.

I'll sharpen up on my pool game at a conservative friend's home who finally cleared all the junk off their pool table in the garage...and if I can bring him around to my/our way of thinking...we'll play round robbin games of pool in the city after this is all over, OK? You will then become more aware of my fence-walkin quirky sense of humor. If you are female though...be careful as I do have Viking blood in me. ;-)

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Thank you very much for the thoughtful comments and grounding the discussion. I'm the type of person that starts with the benefit of the doubt but quickly answers in kind. It can get me trouble, as you can see. Your timely interjection was most welcome. Thank you for the well wishes. And I hope your wonderful daughters give you wonderful grandchildren someday.

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I lose it on this forum sometimes too, but I try hard not to down in the gutter. Although I didn't mention her as my legacy, so that her parents could claim her as their's...I have a beautiful 13 mo. old granddaughter named Sofia in Alaska. She visited for a week two weeks ago. She is the reason I joined OWS a little late...as I was taking care of her for five weeks...four days a week...10-12 hours a day in September and October of last year. I did wrestle grizzlies on the week-ends to keep my testosterome level up though. :-)

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Ah, grizzly rasslin! Solid. I bet Brett Favre would like that. ;-)

Congratulations to you and your daughter. Sounds like you have much to be proud of. And thank you for being here. Your voice is important.

[-] 1 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

Baby boomers acceptance of drugs was one of their biggest mistakes. The whole nation is pill poppers prescribed by so called doctors because the baby boomers were always drug addicts.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I agree baby boomers have a lot of fault to take for us being a nation of pill poppers. We set a bad example for sure. The corrupt pharmaceutical companies have enormous sway in how medicine is practiced in this country, and the answer is always more and more drugs....and we bought into it. The first friend that I could remember talking about the importance of good nutrition, and alternative medicine was in the mid 70s, and we all thought she was nuts. And on a personal note it was my kids who taught me the value of a healthy life-style.

From talking to one of my daughters who is a public defender, and my sister who has worked a life-time with special ed kids, the problem of over prescribing is especially acute with young people being prescribed drugs for behavioral issues.. from quacks. My sister who herself was to put it in euphemistic terms ..high strung... has no doubt in her mind that she would have been prescribed Ritalin if she were growing up today. Instead she got through that tumultuous time of life through love and support from her family and friends.

No person, generation, society, etc. is perfect. We all have our faults. We may not repeat the same mistakes of the previous generation..but instead we usually make totally unthought of mistakes. I guess all we can do is live and learn from our history.

[-] 1 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

I agree. Socrates call these high energy people load stones (magnets). Today we give the young drugs so they can be more like the drones of societies. I was at Drug company doing some work & I heard one of the ladies say how there is new cool drug for restless sleep about to be approved. It sounded so stupid & wrong in so many ways. Most of the great people in history would have be on meds because of their high energy natures. If you haven't please read This Perfect Day. It is pertinent for today.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes, my sister was one of those "high energy people" who was able to turn that energy into a very constructive life of helping the less fortunate.....being first a mentor, teacher, and then a track and field coach....and a marathon runner to boot (3hrs., 13 mins. in Boston). All that after having dropped out of high school, even though she is very intelligent. I will definitely look for that book at the library. Thanks.

[-] 0 points by aflockofdoofi (-18) 2 years ago

I suggested early on that OWS declare itself a drug free zone. Nope. I was told no way. Thats when I knew it was a joke of a movement.

[-] 1 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

That is a good idea. Drugs slow the process of everything down. Drugs corrupt & destroy. The youth don't realize that when they are doing drugs. The moment they are in will probably be the highlight of their entire life. Drugs kill the arc of life. They make every goal in life take much much longer and make goals fail. OWS would be wise to be drug free. Of course drug addicts get very mad when confronted with this fact, so there is almost no use in talking to them.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

All the people that I know who are very involved in OWS are bright, dedicated people who are not druggies.You clearly do not have a good grasp of what this is about. I suggest that you read more. And this movement is no joke.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

See my reply in a separate comment to the original post.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

What generation are you from, puckeslake?

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Puckeslake? Really?

I guess you didn't read any of the comments or bother reading to the end of the post, as I requested. [sigh] I'll just copy/paste...

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (689) from Brooklyn, NY 2 days ago

I've been in the media for 25+ years. I have done everything within my limited power to present content that is meaningful and fair. I have gone out of my way to avoid stereotypes and degrading humor. In those ways, I am in the extreme minority. So since we're never going to get a reprieve from shitty media memes driven by corporatists, I figure we should start fighting back with a few tactical advantages of our own.

The conservatrolls project every weakness of theirs onto progressives. All I was doing was sending one back. Do I believe those things about Boomers? Yes, conservative Boomers. That much should have been obvious by the second to last sentence in the original post. Whenever "dirty" is used in a political sentence, it almost invariably refers to a progressive. Let's see if we can't pin on the right for a change.

In this media landscape, labels are only dropped when they lose their impact. Communism doesn't scare people like it used to, but socialism still does. So does "dirty hippie." But if we associate the "dirty hippies" of yesteryear with the "dirty corporatists" of today, we could at least cancel it out. So I used the Boomers because they're the most obvious converts -- the Reagan Democrats.

Hasn't anyone noticed that the conservatrolls have avoided this post like the plague? They saw the tactic right away and ran for the hills. We progressives have to get a LOT more tactically savvy if we're going to score any real victories after November. This was a fail on my part, but also on a lot of other people's part, too.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I don't see any advantage in generational stereotyping to anybody. Furthermore, I would bet, from the professionailsm of your writing and the fact you say you have been in the media for 25+ years that you probably are a Boomer yourself. The fact that a lot of Boomers are working on Wall Street., etc., isn't news to anyone, so what is the point here?

I think I know the point, and I also think there are a lot of people here more sophisticated than you think. In short, you aren't fooling anybody with your "mud and feces."

[-] -1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Generational stereotyping is already happening to OWS in the mainstream media. The "dirty hippie" meme is already out there, and not by my doing by any stretch of the imagination. Boomers don't just work on Wall St, they make up the bulk of those in positions of real power. And the conservatives among that group (which is almost all of them) are pointing at OWS and saying "get a job, dirty hippie." And they've trained their younger colleagues to do the same.

Well, a lot of those conservative Boomers really were the dirty hippies back in the day and now they've switched sides and forgotten their own pasts. That's real. That is an actual truth that is so fucking common in American history it makes my teeth hurt. But here comes the earnest progressive brigade to utterly miss the point and engage in a battle I didn't even pick. And even after I own up to my mistake in trying, y'all continue to pile on... and on... and on. You think you've cornered the market on righteous or something?

AND you think you're sophisticated? I love you guys as progressives but as tacticians, OMG!!

And lastly, here are the posts I put up earlier that are about real solutions that none of you could be bothered to even fucking notice...

http://occupywallst.org/forum/amending-the-constitution/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/fixing-cu-v-fec-the-constitutional-way/

But a fight about Boomers? Ooh! It's ON!

This is really fucking depressing.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I don't see anybody pushing it except you, my friend. You can find a link to support anything. This is just the latest example of that tired, old, divide and conquer strategy employed since time immemorial and you're the one perpetrating it. You aren't fooling anybody.

Get a life.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I'm not TRYING to fool anybody!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPRhZQ6_Vkk

If you think I'm playing a game that isn't "fooling anyone," what is it? Spell it out in detail. What do you think I'm trying to do?

PS - Before you dismiss the video as RT propaganda, there's a Fox/CNN montage within.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

You are trying to divide this movement along generational lines. I already made that clear to you, and you aren't fooling anybody. You say you have 25+ years of journalism expierence, and you pretend you don't even know what I'm saying?

Who'd you work for? Fox news? Forbes? What?

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

So you didn't click on any links and you didn't read anything I said.

Apparently, you also don't give a rat's ass about amending the constitution to overturn CU v. FEC and all the case law that led to it. I didn't catch anyone who visits this board at the Move To Amend event last night in midtown that was organized by an OWS working group, which I videotaped and will be posting about here later.

Please note: I'm the one in this conversation commenting under his real name. Want proof?

Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/pewestlake

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pewestlake

My father's official website that I run (poorly at the moment), on which you can see video with my copyright at the end: http://donaldwestlake.com/index/

My journalism watchdog blog (too busy to update in months but it's really me) which is copyrighted in the sidebar: http://journowatch.com/

And my little-used personal blog, on which you can read 17 critiques about amendment language intended to abolish corporate personhood and the definition of spending money as an expression of speech: http://wanderinginthezero.blogspot.com/

Meanwhile, you've worked really hard to maintain an unsustainable righteous indignation over this while exhibiting obvious troll tactics.

So, Mr. Infiltrator, who do YOU work for. The Cato Institute? The Council on Foreign Relations? The Heritage Foundation? The RNC?

Can you say "busted?"

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

You're just a sneaky, lying, fart. Either that or a totally confused fool, and I don't give a damn which. Not worth wasting anymore time on.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

You're busted, buddy. And you're far from the first conservatroll posing as a progressive that I've uncovered in social media. You're all too easy because you can't really be what you aren't. You may have a lot of people fooled, Gypsy, but I'm looking through you. And the fun is just beginning. I'm real, as my links prove. You're a fraud and I'll be exposing you every chance I get.

Have a nice day.

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I'll look forward to your future attempts at divissivness, thinly diguised as . . . what? I don't even see how you're trying to disguise it. You're a total amature at this hokus pokus.

Goodbye.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Whatever.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

In my experience OWS activists come from all walks of life and all age groups. Lower case democratic politics is necessarily based on the notion that people can change, that we have the job of winning over the vast majority to our point of view, which is not simply about certain intellectual and ethical values, but also how you act on them, which is why for OWS the internet is primarily a tool to get people up and away from their computers, out in the streets, interacting with each other, engaging in general assemblies and starting new general assemblies everywhere.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I'm going to the MTA event tonight. I've drafted language to amend the constitution. I'm doing this thing.

Did you read all the way to the end of the post?

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Since you're a good writer, supporter of Occupy and a fellow gen x'er, I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this. http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-does-those-involved-in-the-occupy-movement-wa/

[-] 1 points by poltergist22 (159) 2 years ago

OWS should adopt www.nationalday911.org

[-] 1 points by Blank102 (86) from American Canyon, CA 2 years ago

You are so very right about Boomers. They have fucked up this nation and they are not through with fucking it up.

[Removed]

[Removed]

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by ibanker (-99) 2 years ago

And guess what they also made the country a superpower. So shut up, get off your ass and get to work or go to college.

[-] 2 points by RayLansing (99) 2 years ago

And what do we have here? A worthless banker which the world would be a better place without. Oh, we will work and go to college but not because an unskilled waste of oxygen like yourself told us to.

[-] 2 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

No, the greatest generation made this country a superpower, which is was originally defined by having the bomb. You're a mooch and a fraud and the very last thing I care about is what you have to say, Mr. I've-never-seen-a-48%-ROE. Fucking moron.

[Removed]

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (34898) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

WoW did you just go right off the tracks. Crash and burn what a wreck.