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Forum Post: OWS is misguided and disorganized and becoming dangerous for America

Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 18, 2011, 3:41 p.m. EST by clearbluesky (1)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I'm currently a USAF military surgeon in Germany taking care of blown up soldiers from Iraq/Afghanistan. Looking at the news from overseas disgust me about America and especially about OWS. Sad to see that America has reached this point. I am not for or against OWS. Just a neutral observer from overseas. I agree on some issues and diagree on others. I worked hard to achieve my fortunate success and serve America proudly. But over the past fews months, OWS is degenerating into a massive and rowdy bunch of hippie-like people pushing for the demise of American society by trying to stop its economic engine and honest hardworking people from getting to their jobs. Yes America is in rough times, but unity of the American people is what is needed not starting class warfare. OWS needs clearly defined political, economic and social objectives and needs to put forth answers to the problem not just complaints. You need to Occupy Washington DC/Congress. That is the source of the cancer! Are you afraid of your own government? Instead, blaming all rich people, some of whom may actually be working their ass of to be where they are in life? Maybe we should put all OWS in Europe and let them experience how pathetic socialism really is. Socialism can only be destined to failure once you experience the actual system by living in it. Better yet, how about China. I've been there too. Communism will lead to it's own destruction as well. The only true society is a democratic one with a free market economy. It's not the economy or the market that is the problem. It's the corrupt politicians in Washington DC. If OWS brings down the US economy which is a very dangerous direction that you are pushing towards, then us US military folks might as well come home so that we can fight the new American Civil War. We may or may not be with you...Is that what you want? Have you seen young soldiers blown up with no arms/legs/genitalia/perinuem/open abdomen and chest? Thousands of them? Fighting for what they believe is America's freedom, politically, economically and socially. Well I have. In fact every single day! Most of you are clueless about how lucky you are to live in America. Yet you are unknowingly trying to destroy it? We have politicians to do that. Don't accelerate the problem. Show some clarity of vision. Please separate the truth from mass hysteria so that we, the US military, do not have to wage a new theatre of operation on our own soil.



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[-] 4 points by kerbauer (74) 12 years ago

Quote from above "Don't accelerate the problem. Show some clarity of vision. Please separate the truth from mass hysteria so that we, the US military, do not have to wage a new theatre of operation on our own soil." This sounds like it needs a big cartoon image of Uncle Sam with his finger pointed at you saying "OBEY"

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 12 years ago

To me it sounds like a THREAT: "Do it my way of we'll shoot you!" Well I have news for you, "clearbluesky": you can't kill us ALL. It's an old idea, it's been tried and has always failed : genocides always have a way of exploding in the face of those criminals who attempt it.

[-] 0 points by jay1975 (428) 12 years ago

Wow, paranoid much?

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 12 years ago

"jay1975" writes : "then us US military folks might as well come home so that we can fight the new American Civil War."

WHAT would you call that if not a THREAT of a new Civil War?

[-] 0 points by jay1975 (428) 12 years ago

I would say it is a warning to be heeded. Did he say that he was planning on it or that it was inevitable? He is merely observing that if this movement continues on a the downward spiral that it is on (from his perspective in Germany), that it could lead to serious fighting and that could potentially mean military intervention. I took no tone or implication of a threat.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 12 years ago

"jay1975" writes : "I took no tone or implication of a threat." LMAO

Denial is not just a river in Egypt!!!!

[-] 0 points by jay1975 (428) 12 years ago

And paranoia runs deep to the core.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 12 years ago

And so does HYPOCRISY, "jay1975"...

[-] 0 points by jay1975 (428) 12 years ago

What hypocrisy?

[-] 3 points by sassafrass (197) 12 years ago

I think you make a mistake characterizing the group as hippies, communists, socialists, etc. There are lots of different types of people involved in it (for better or worse) so the slippage of hippie/left = violent is not accurate.

[-] 1 points by clearbluesky (1) 12 years ago

Apologize, not hippie, but it's looks that way on TV and papers. OWS should dress and represent the average american people...

[-] 1 points by beamerbikeclub (414) 12 years ago

Thank you for your service and also for joining the discussion. I am sure you understand that what gets on TV and what is reported and broadcast in general-- especially by privately owned, for profit media-- is not exactly an accurate or in-depth view of "reality".

I'm following as best I can (from Paris) and I can only Imagine what a mixed bag of humanity it must be. But I can also report that I am proud (here in Paris) to be an American because OWS has inspired an "Occupation" here too. It is full of similar contradictions and a mixed bag of people, but the desire for at least a conversation about a better world is quite inspiring all around.

Hope you will stay tuned and god bless.

[-] 0 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 12 years ago

Yeah, I suppose we should all dress impeccably like the SUIT-AND-TIE MAFIA that is running this country... into the ground.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago

Dear Sir,

First, let me thank you for your service.

Second, let me point out that our system is terribly broken, as I am sure you are aware.

Recently I've been calling for the utter destruction of the repelican party - using the vehicle of Peace, Truth, and the Weight of Public Opinion. I know I do not have to remind you, Sir, that the repelican party is the first party to advocate cutting Veteran's benefits whenever budgetary issues arise before Congress. I do not believe it is either right or proper to ask a man, or woman, to risk their lives in service to the nation, and then retroactively redefine the nature of the contract under which they do so.

This is just one of a great many reasons for my current advocacy.

Here is an article I highly recommend, written by a Washington insider:

-- Goodbye to All That: Reflections of a GOP Operative Who Left the Cult Saturday 3 September 2011 by: Mike Lofgren, Truthout | News Analysis http://www.truth-out.org/goodbye-all-reflections-gop-operative-who-left-cult/1314907779


He says almost exactly what I said here: -- Upon the Question of Default of Our National Debt July 6th, 2011 http://zendogblog.net/blog/

But he does so with a great deal more clarity and insight.

[-] 2 points by FawkesNews (1290) 12 years ago

Germany? Good coverage on the TV? When you return, please discuss issues with random people and repost your assessment at that time. Until then your opinion reflects your what you do not know.

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 12 years ago

"I'm currently a USAF military surgeon in Germany taking care of blown up soldiers from Iraq/Afghanistan. Looking at the news from overseas disgust me about America and especially about OWS."

The person who wrote these two sentences is NOT from the United States. I have lived, and worked, in Europe (2 years in Munich). Not one American abroad, that I EVER met in 2 years of extensive travel in Europe ( Italy, Austria, Germany, France, The Czech Republic, Belgium, The Netherlands, Denmark, England, Sweden, Lichtenstein, Switzerland, Spain or Norway) EVER referred to the news from back home as "NEWS FROM OVERSEAS." We call it the "news from back home".

Nice try False Flag.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 12 years ago

Sir, I do believe you are sincere in your views and statement, yet your sources of information are as faulty as my own, possible more so.

Many seem to think the objective is to 'crash the American economy'. Yet OWS understands very well that is not a practical objective and so does not seek to do so.

When protesting such a wide array of issues, strong statements have to be made and sometimes those statements have to 'upset' some people. The goal wasn't to shut down "Wall Street", the goal was to make a very loud and strong statement. Which I assume they felt they did.

I also see the words dirty and hippie used to describe the people participating in the active protest, I read the words "dress to represent the American people". Those words make me wonder just how an American dresses.

Do they wear jeans? T-shirts? Sweatshirts? Do they wear pants and dresses of different styles and colors?

It seems that the American people need a shock every now and then, a shock that brings us out of our own lives, the business of earning a living, or at least trying to, the business of raising a family, the business of our lives...this just may be our shock. What brings us out of our own little universes and begin to pay attention to what's happening around those universes.

You speak of a theatre of operation, which implies armed conflict. On the part of those who protest I have no indication of arms.

[-] 1 points by beamerbikeclub (414) 12 years ago

"...then us US military folks might as well come home so that we can fight the new American Civil War. We may or may not be with you..."

With respect sir, if it were to come to that, I would have to insist on you NOT being "with me".

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 12 years ago

Nobody is blaming rich people. The globalization of our workforce dictates that our standards of living for the middle class have to be reduced as we openly compete against countries with wages in line with slave labor. Our Corporate elite have influenced Congress for too many decades and when you look at the EU don't be surprised if our Investment Bankers are in the shadows of that mess too. The monied elite that have manipulated our system of democracy just happen to live and work in nyc. The politicians in Washington DC are only puppets and most can be easily replaced in one day (Election Day). However, the individuals responsible for our slow decay cannot be easily removed from Washington DC. I hope the people who are exploiting the american citizens are not also comfortable in their roles that they can exploit the military too. How many Congressman's sons and daughters are fighting for America's freedom?

[-] 1 points by forgiveandrepair (9) 12 years ago

The financial industry is almost solely responsible for America's declining economy. We should be protesting the politicians as well, as they make it possible by allowing themselves to be bought, fixing legislation so that financial fraud is frequently legal, and failing to properly regulate activities that still are illegal. Ultimately, it makes more sense to focus on the people holding the puppets than the puppets themselves, though to extend the analogy, attacking a puppet is a good way to hurt the master's hand and expose the theater for what it is. You may be trolling, in which case you have given us all a good chance to focus our arguments, but if you are serious, then I assure you that much of the information you have been exposed to concerning the occupy movement was the product of trolling. The smear campaign has been carried out extremely efficiently, but truth has a way of asserting itself, and all the information you need to be informed is out there if you can keep your wits about you as you wade through the garbage.

[-] 1 points by redteddy (263) from New York, NY 12 years ago

How can you in all honestly judge a movement from overseas? I mean honestly you seem to understand little of the movement because if you did you would realize that OWS isn't a socialist movement as in promoting a socialist party its a movement to correct injustice, a movement to bring justice. Perhaps you have been out of the States too long to realize all that is going on and perhaps you are so blinded by the daily vision of a thriving economy such as they have in Germany that you are clueless as to exactly how bad things are going here in the US. If you were here in NY and actually went to Zucotti park you would notice that working class people, unions, intellectuals and scholars, educators, nurses and doctors, students, concerned elderly folk and yes even men who have served in the military. You are misguided in your opinion as the movement champions the working class and generating prosperity for the working class. Presently the system has done nothing but disenfranchised the 'hard working people' you speak of. OWS didn't start class welfare, deregulation of the financial system and NAFTA did that. OWS DOES have set objectives and goals but you wouldn't know what they are since its obvious that you haven't read OWS Declaration of the Occupation. I suggest you hold your opinions until you understand more of what this resistance is all about and educate yourself on what is really going on here in the US. Take care of our vets, they'll need all of their strength when they return back to their jobless nation that has squandered billions on a useless war. And when you think of OWS perhaps you can also think of Marine Sargent Shamar Thomas who defended protestors when they were beating on peaceful protestors. Google his name and you will see how he reacted to NYPD in real time. Protest Washington? Its been done. What corporate america represents is the power behind Washington, the lobbyists and interests that re-wrote and discarded regulations protecting the working class, the ones who buy off our politicians and co-opt them into policies that do not benefit the majority of americans. Again your perceptions of what is happening here are very very far from mark and wide of the point.

You are also somewhat ignorant of economic policies, China at the moment is practicing blatant capitalism not communism, they reformed their economies two decades ago. They are communist in name only but their economy is decidedly capitalist. Go do the research and you will see for yourself. You speak of socialism being a mess but fail to mention that Denmark, Sweden and Norway are social democratic systems that are thriving have not suffered the economic woes of other nations that completely deregulated their markets. Go and do the research and you will see for yourself. Poor Iceland allowed their economic prosperous socialist economy to be deregulated (the banks) and they are still paying for that gaffe. Go and do the research and you will see for yourself. Again you are misguided.

[-] 1 points by ConcernedAmerican (9) 12 years ago

As this Movement Grows they will be a need for organization with concrete goals. You have to say what you stand for not just what your against. Let those people show up in front of the mayors mansion tell everyone to protest by taking there money out of bank of america dont pay their card or mortgage refuse to work dont buy gas call your local senator representative mayor govenor and inundate with phone calls calling for a reform. This government needs to go back to the people and what they are going to do about it or they will loose there jobs etc... there are so many things that can create an impact if it is an organized effort to focus the attack on these things instead of gathering marching and yelling yes it will get you attention but for how long until there is unification in the same main ideas united u stand divided you fall most people if asked dont even know what they are marching for or have very diffferent ideas on whats going on. I support ows 1000% but now that youve made some noise its time to make an impact!

[-] 1 points by greedisabottomlesspit (7) 12 years ago

It's the corrupt banking elite that use their money as power to corrupt our political system. So there are two sides, either you're with the corrupt bankers or you're with the us... Sound familiar :)

[-] 1 points by guynorth (33) 12 years ago

I'm a former serviceman myself, greetings, and respect in knowing the difficulties and trials of that life, as well as the joys.

That said, no military operation at the moment is currently protecting American rights. If anything, the defense budget, which is going to be reduced, is heavily over-used for what actual threats exist comparative to what international political interests have been of American interest.

The original ruling in American legislation forbid the American military from going to war on foreign soil. This changed eventually in the Spanish-American War - which historians now look back upon in debate of the validity of the initial justification which gave final arguable provocation, the sinking of the U.S.S. Maine. The vast majority of current military operations of the American military engagements are of no better clarification of specific demand than the OWS movement has in its movement agenda. The difference being that the OWS movement is one coming from social frustration and comprised of general citizens, while the American military is a directed force of American governing application. The latter has a responsibility of duty to specific declaration in its use and application, while the former does not.

In regards to the concern over the degeneration of America by the movement, which is the degeneration: the unhealthy diet which produces the diabetic constitution, or the diabetic constitution which once seated takes root and degenerates the body further while revealing the unhealthy systemic treatment of the individual? One is consequence of the other.

If the OWS is the funnel by which degeneration takes place in noticeable fashion, then it is only by consequence of its predecessor in the form of a long-running social, economic, and governing infrastructure which has produced a now noticeable affliction in the body of America. The large extent of the people involved generally feel that sitting back and trying previously attempted measures of traditionally quieter models have failed continually to produce any effective change. The last presidential election, a traditional model of attempting systemic alteration, was itself won largely in part by a mantra of change. That change has not largely occurred for a variety of reasons which are not the ownership of any one person, cabinet, council, or branch of the American infrastructure.

As a result, America now finally stands in the beginnings of a social decent and rise of a civil unrest.

[-] 1 points by jgriff (6) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

No one is pushing for collapse more than the globalists. Its the only route to their world currency

[-] 0 points by Doc4the99 (591) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

I am an ACTIVE Duty ARMY Pyschologist, officer, and former Navy fficer via NROTC. I have been shot at on deployment and work with soldiers everyday. I see soldiers leaving the military who cannot find work. Original poster you are lucky and we are lucky to be in the medical field, one of the few places there still is work. I support OWS and I am a true patriot. You're kidding yourself because your job and education insulate you from reality. Open you're eyes, your kids will be lucky to find jobs at this rate.

[-] 0 points by theinnerrevolution (6) from Cambridge, England 12 years ago

Clearbluesky, I am afraid I have stopped reading your post as soon as I have seen that you associate OWS with socialism. The energy that animate OWS has nothing to see with the dualistic vision that belong to this dying paradigm.


[-] 0 points by Vooter (441) 12 years ago

Sorry, Wall Street owns the government. Get it? FOLLOW THE MONEY. And if the U.S. economy is healthy and vibrant, then nothing that a little ol' movement like OWS is going to do will "bring it down." But if the economy actually is that close to collapse (and I think it is), then you probably ought to be concentrating on something other than a protest movement that started two months ago, don't you think? Perhaps you should be paying attention to the TRILLIONS of dollars that have been wasted on your alleged "fight for our freedom" in Afghanistan and Iraq, because I hate to break it to you: The U.S. military hasn't protected the American people from a legitimate threat for at least the last 65 years. In that time, however, we HAVE managed to kill roughly 8,000,000 people around in the world in covert, overt but ALWAYS offensive military operations. The bottom line is, we need to close our overseas bases, bring all you people back (hey, you can always get a job in the beloved private sector--as most Fox News watchers will tell you, government workers like you are our biggest problem), and wrap up our completely phony and useless "wars" in Afghanistan and Iraq. THEN maybe we can get our budget under control. And finally, don't make me laugh with your veiled threat to "wage a new theater of operation" on our own soil. Because if you're planning to shoot us, then you're working for the government and Wall Street, and that makes you our enemy. Choose wisely....

[-] 0 points by SodaJerk (0) from Allentown, PA 12 years ago

The US military already is waging a new theater of operation on our soil, the police are basically a militarized organization run through government. Explain the difference of police and military for me because there aren't very many.

[-] 0 points by jay1975 (428) 12 years ago

The police enforce the laws of the states and nation and serve local governments. The primary role of the police is to be a first responder to preserve evidence, collect information and render aid if needed. The police have a strict force continuum ranging from verbal persuasion all the way to lethal force for self defense and the defense of others. The police tends to be made up of people from the local community, to serve the local community. The military cannot enforce the laws on civilians off of military installations, have limited jurisdiction in the US and serve all around the world as the defense force of the nation (although Congress may seem to feel otherwise). The primary goal of the military is to engage and destroy the enemies of the US.

[-] 0 points by Fredone (234) 12 years ago

You believe this because of the media bias, especially the explicit right propaganda rags, I can see plenty of their tropes showing through your piece here.

You need to understand the media is owned and controlled by the 1%. You need to get your information from more reliable sources, anything that is not run by people with ties of any sort to 1%ers only, is what is reasonably unbiased.

[-] 1 points by captainkbt1 (7) 12 years ago

So its all a conspiracy....right? I guess your left wing media didnt get the memo.

[-] 2 points by greedisabottomlesspit (7) 12 years ago

Left wing, right wing, blah blah blah... Until I rose above the differences that I perceived based on what was being fed to me via mass media outlets and starting seeking alternative forms of media, I was stuck in the right/left paradigm.

[-] 1 points by Fredone (234) 12 years ago

Oh no, the left wing media is in on it too. I said bias, too. There is no need for any conspiracy here. You think an organization run by people in the 1%, whose friends and relatives are mostly in the 1%, whose children will likely be in the 1%, who grew up hearing all the bullshit Ayn Randian rationalizations for how their power and unearned privilege is "justified" and the moral and correct thing, even need a conspiracy?

Although frankly it would be naive to assume there was not at least some significant organization between the actors going on outside of the public view. More than a few, actually.


[-] -1 points by seaglass (671) from Brigantine, NJ 12 years ago

Your a lying troll sitting in some troll cube knocking out what your master instructs.

[-] 2 points by Meeky (186) from Los Angeles, CA 12 years ago

Innocent until proven guilty.

My apologies clearbluesky

[-] 1 points by KirkVanHouten (123) 12 years ago