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Forum Post: Our Democratic Deficit

Posted 2 years ago on March 8, 2012, 3:58 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80 (6213)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

(Today’s Society And How To Improve It - part I)

We have a system where we vote on politicians to run society on our behalf - a so called representative democracy. We’re not running things ourselves like we ought to do by more direct democracy and direct participation; instead politicians are working full time to do tasks based on the results of what we vote once every second year. Democracy has been reduced to just putting a piece of paper in a box, and letting other people make decisions that affect our lives in a big way. Decisions made by politicians are also often done on a centralized level, resulting in decisions being made far away from the people electing them. This type of democracy is a poor one; this type of representative democracy reduces democracy to being a "spectator sport" where we get to be in charge for just a couple of seconds voting - putting a piece of paper in a box - and then letting people in suits in charge for the rest of the years to come. This type of system creates a huge democratic deficit.

At the same time concentration of private power has increased. This kind of power also creates a democratic deficit. The financial elite have much of the wealth, they control the resources, the corporations and the means of production - things that affect our lives - yet we’ve never voted for them. This is highly undemocratic. People don’t control their own lives, workplaces and communities; instead the super rich non-elected minority make big decisions and control huge part of the society with their enormous wealth which is highly concentrated.

Not only are the rich and powerful in an undemocratic way controlling the economy as a whole in huge networks of transactions, investments and stock exchange, they also rule the institutions in society in a totalitarian way. The economic institutions in a capitalist society have a totalitarian model: a tyrannical non-democratic hierarchy in which the people at the top - the CEOs, owners etc - dictate how the institution is being run, what’s being produced, working conditions and so on, while people further down the hierarchy must follow their orders - a non-democratic hierarchy with control and power in the hands of the ones at the top. Capitalist institutions are in other words private tyrannies. These structures are in no way not even resembling democratic organization. Also here we see a huge democratic deficit.

These people, the politicians and private owners, are the ones making the main decisions in society, and we see a huge democratic deficit in both sectors. Now, that’s bad enough as it is, but unfortunately there’s another factor that is becoming an increasing problem: The close links between the two. These ties have gotten closer and closer, especially in the United States. These close ties have contributed to creating what I’d like to call a "right-wing vs less right-wing" model. As these ties between politicians and private tyrannies have gotten closer and closer, right-wing policies have gotten more and more influential in society. Not very surprising, since right-wing policies like tax cuts for businesses etc. is exactly what the private owners want. So what’s happened is that a vicious circle has developed with private owners attracting an increasing number of right-wing politicians enforcing policies that benefit them and make them more powerful, resulting in them getting even more influential on politicians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYxGkFxb7f4

So with this comes a political arena of different major parties, all of them - but some more than others - good friends with private enterprise, giving them more and more recourses and power, and by that making them more influential in society. In other words, right-wing parties and somewhat less right-wing parties taking turns governing, constantly competing on how they can convince most people with their lies and rhetoric. In the mean time the ruling party is privatizing and giving more and more tax cuts for the wealthy resulting in cuts in welfare and benefits for poor and the working class. This is the main reason why we see lots of people struggling to get by even though the society as a whole is richer and more efficient than ever. The wealth is being shoved into the pockets of the wealthy, while the working people have to fight over the crumbs, causing cynicism frustration and crime; and at the same time being duped to vote for politicians that mostly favor the interests of the wealthy.

Our society has a huge democratic deficit. This has to change. We must organize and create a free society with direct democracy and direct participation; democratic workplaces, democratic communities, working together to benefit the people, not private enterprise.

Further readings:

Part II - “Human Nature”

Part III - “Dehumanization”

Part IV - "The Free Ride Society"

Part V - "Capitalism, Exploitation and Involuntary Agreements"

Part VI - "Property Rights"

Part VII - "The Transition Phase: The Road To Freedom" (stage I)

Part VIII - "The Transition Phase: The Road To Freedom" (stage II)

Part IX - "The Transition Phase: The Road To Freedom" (stage III)

Part X - "The Transition Phase: The Road To Freedom" (stage IV)

49 Comments

49 Comments


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[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I like what you're saying. That's why I support this group:

http://osixs.org/Rev2_menu_commonsense.aspx

Related videos:

Direct Democracy: classically termed pure democracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj5TIp7YC0s

Direct Democracy Now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwPNMyK-z_8

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

Glad to hear. That Chomsky excerpt is from an interview back in 88. Watch the whole thing here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJU2c7YfQTE and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjKwdWJsTk0&feature=related

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Thanx ....... I'll check it out :)

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

No problem:)

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

"We’re not running things ourselves like we ought to do by more direct democracy and direct participation"

LOL !!

We are not doing that because we don't want to - or because we are not educated how to do it! We not involve into making the most important things for us and we don't participate into the decision process when we have the opportunity to do it.

Look at all the NGO's that claim they want to "save the world" and see how they are such a fraud! They never implement solutions and they are just wasting people's time, energy and money for temporary relief instead of providing long term, reliable solutions.

Democracy means, above all, the freedom to associate and to work together. It doesn't mean just freedom of electing people in power.

But we are not using the most essential feature of the democracy. We don't associate and we don't build solutions together. The evil is not in an ideology. The evil is in the politicians, because they are not what they claim they are. And there is a bigger evil in the NGO's, because they are so fake. And they are so fake because WE ALLOW THEM TO BE FAKE.

So the greatest evil is in ourselves. We should change and we should start building solutions together.

Further reading:

The problem is much deeper than just politics. The problem is also in us. http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-problem-is-much-deeper-than-just-politics-the-/

http://improvemyworld.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/democracy/

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

I think you're wrong. There has been a lot of propaganda trying to convince people that they should be passive. I think that most people wnat to have a say in the things they're a part of. I think most want to be in control of their own lives.

And again I favor implementing much more direct particiaptory democracy and much less parlamentary, representative democracy.

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

"I favor implementing much more direct particiaptory democracy"

I favor that very much too! But in order to get there, we have to BUILD solutions together. Fight for transparency, expose corruption, make public housing - we can do all that and we get to where we both want to.

Just protesting against "capitalism" or against "communistm" is not the solution.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

Agreed! But the current system must be adressed as well. The economy is all-encompassing. Huge parts of the wealth and capital are concentrated in the hands of the financial elite which means that they have a huge power over our lives. This must be dealt with as well.

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

"they have a huge power over our lives"

That's true only because of another sad reality. Because most of the people waste money when they have them, and then, when they are bankrupt they are ready to kill their brothers for a job (going to army is a job, we all need money, nooo??)

So what you said is true because the people do things only for money. So the real problem is the motivation in everyone in us, and much less in the rich people. They only have power because we value their money. And most of the time we value money (and self-pleasing with money) more than we value human life.

"This must be dealt with as well."

There is no other or better way to deal with it than working together, and all the benefits that come from that: We learn to cooperate, to learn from each other, to trust each other, to defend each other, to be more efficient, to be vigilant, to plan things, to prevent bad things, to think on the long term, to find reliable, long term solutions.

We can do so many of the things I mentioned before (investigation journalism, exposing corruption, fight for corruption, public housing, genuine NGO's). And we can get money from donations and energy from voluntary work. The people (in general) don't trust the NGO's because they are fake and they have no realistic projects. With genuine projects we can get funding.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

Money and property has value in today's society, making the ones who have much of it more powerful in society. That's reality. We must deprive them this power, creating a democratic society in which people can control their own lives

Yes, we also need to cooperate and create solidaric movements and communities among ourselves, absolutely.

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

"Money and property has value in today's society, making the ones who have much of it more powerful in society. That's reality"

You forget something essential. Trust has MUCH more value than money. Because you donate money to the organizations you trust. Making truly genuine NGO's can attract enormous resources - in money and voluntary work.

So the power is not in the money. The power is in trust. That's why we have to work together, so the people will be able to trust us, that's why we have to create genuine NGO's to give the people the opportunity to participate into building solutions. Until now, I haven't find any NGO that comes with real, essential solutions, in a realistic fashion and approach.

"We must deprive them this power, creating a democratic society in which people can control their own lives"

You forget something. The politicians and the organized crime - they move into the dark. The solution is not to get into the dark and to fight with it. The solution is to create light, so there will be less and less dark space for them to have a place to manifest. While that might sound like a metaphor, it's not a metaphor at all ! When we build solutions, we monitor the government, we create safety nets, and there will be no space for corruption. If we just fight with the current politicians, tomorrow we might come in power. And most of us will also become corrupt, just because we are educated to take advantage, and because there is so much dark and so little light. There is so much space for doing dirty things, simply because the people don't create transparency and safety nets.

"Yes, we also need to cooperate and create solidaric movements and communities among ourselves, absolutely."

So the main question is: "what we can do?" (or "how can we build solutions?"). That is a permanent question. We must all come with ideas and we should do our best to work together, even by starting with the smallest things. Even if an idea or activity might prove wrong, we get experience and we learn to work together, so next time we will be more efficient. "Inventing means making lots of errors, and learning from them", said a great inventor. And he was so right. The key is activity, and learning from the errors done while practicing that activity.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

Money is just one factor. The wealthy own an overwhelming part of the resources, including cash. Their right to own as much of the world's resources must be deprived from them, that you can't get ignore. Again, the economy is all encompassing; this must be addressed and dealt with.

That said, I think we may agree on many things.

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

"That said, I think we may agree on many things."

Then please my friend, let's talk about concrete actions. Let's make a sub-forum on this web forum dedicated only to answer to the question "what we can do?". Let's gather the most relevant ideas and let's share them so we can inspire each others.

Let's start doing some work, even in the smallest things. Even if we take over workplaces, we won't be able to manage them democratically if we don't practice team work and democratic management. We have tot practice it.

For example we can start a group dedicated to transparency. The issue is vast, but we can start with small steps, like adding to Wikipedia the most relevant data from the National Statistics Institutes, then we can make a separate encyclopedia dedicated to transparency, then we can start creating newspapers dedicated to transparency and to exposing corruption. But we can't do all those things if we don't start with something! We can be the snowball that starts an avalanche.

Please, don't let the anger towards politicians blind you because that will incapacitate you. If you do that, you will just play the games the politicians want you to play.

Come with ideas for concrete actions, and even if those ideas might be wrong or childish or ridiculous, that's still a start. A wrong idea can contain some concepts useful for a brilliant idea.

We have to do something. I am doing the best I can to do my part of the job. And I am desperate to find others to work together with them or at least to support them financially or in any other way I can.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

Sounds like a good idea to me. Organizing to create a better society means having to deal with lots of different issues and coming up with good solutions together.

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

I think you should make a list with the best ideas you could find for doing something concrete in order to build safety nets and to build solutions. In order to share the best ideas with your friends. A short version of the list would be highly required (5-10 ideas max, presented briefly), I think.

Think how to break great tasks into smaller jobs, so everyone can participate easily into implementing those ideas. Think about the easiest way to start those ideas (where is the snowball) and then share those thoughts.

Then please call the people to participate. I am ready to participate to any idea that I find reasonable, with work or with money. For example I already donated 800$ to Open Source Ecology because I know such a project will create solutions on the long term. I am happy to participate to any good projects, with money or work. I can't miss the opportunity to participate into building solutions.

I don't mind if you call people to also protest in the street. However, I am quite sure that, after working on solutions for a while, you will see that the biggest blame is on the people who don't want to participate into building safety nets.

I gathered the best ideas I could think about for implementing solutions on my blog:

http://improvemyworld.wordpress.com/2011/11/10/what-are-the-solutions/

Hope to hear for more ideas.

Oh, and thanks a lot for having the patience to answer to all my messages :)

You consumed a lot of energy for that.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

In the article "The Transition Phase - The Road To Freedom" I gave some suggestions as to how we can build a better socety and eventually achieve freedom. Check it out:

http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1321101669_the_transition_phase_.html

I'll probaly write more about this issue in the future.

Yours s. sff

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

I am reading your article right now and I will comment it there.

I will answer here to your message in the other thread:

"Building democracy from below also means building it in existing institutions :)"

Totally true. That's why we need the publication that monitors the existing institutions. We should make a map of those institutions, and then we should gather relevant data about all of them. We have to put pressure on them to become more transparent, and we can start that by knowing them. We can do that before making the publication.

"Lots of co-ops are being created, and -especially with the rise of the Occupy Mvoement - solidaric communities are also growing"

Please give me some names or better, some lists of those cooperatives. I need to monitor their evolution in time.

What's the best way to send you further messages?

Kind regards, gonzo

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

The wonderful internet provides us with lots of info, including on co-ops :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cooperatives

Michael Moore also looked at some co-ops in Capitalism a Love Story - Isthmus Engineering and Alvarado Street Bakery : http://www.canadianworker.coop/news/general-news/worker-co-ops-michael-moore-film-capitalism-love-story

There are many more, but I don't know all of them of course.

just send messages here if you like or private message.

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

Oh, sorry, I meant co-operatives that support OWS and that were created by the OWS supporters. The force to change the society must come at least 50% from creating democratic workplaces (co-operatives) and only the rest from strikes.

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

Example: Starting with Monday, I will make petitions to all the big NGO's I know here in Spain, to ask them to create web forums - so their supporters can ask questions, learn, share experience, to ask them be more transparent (most of them don't keep an archive with their annual reports), to ask them to implement solutions (to give to the poor the opportunity to create the food their need, instead of just giving food to the por - as an example).

Care to join or to do something similar?

[-] 0 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

http://www.apfn.net/DOC-100_bankruptcy.htm

Find where this has been discharged. You can't do it as the hole has only been dug deeper and this situation clearly explains exactly why things are, in DC's American, exactly how they are.

[-] 1 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

You are clueless in so many ways. These demonstrations show that people want to be involved. We have a many good ideas that prove our intelligence. Have you ever heard how dumb the current crop of politicians are? The greatest evil is YOU not OWS. Get off your BS horse and find a brain. Solidarity!

[-] 0 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

Sorry you didn't understood anything from what I said. I recommend you to read my message again. I also love solidarity and I want to participate into building solutions. But the solution is to act, not just to protest.

"We have a many good ideas that prove our intelligence".

Well, haven't seen many people (here or anywhere else) who understands that the real problem is the speculation, and that we can fight speculation - just to give an example. So, I'm not optimistic that I can find a lot of intelligence anywhere - and I don't want to be rude by that, it's just that I'm too pessimistic.

However, if you please, can you give me some example of good ideas?

[-] 1 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

If you have not read any here already, I doubt I can help. The ideas are everywhere like wild flowers. If you can't find them it may point to your intellect & not others.

[-] 2 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

Yes dude, you can help. I can't read all the posts and replies on this forum. Please do your job, as an activist. Please gather the most brilliant ideas you could find and present them somewhere - your blog or a new thread on this forum. Then share those ideas with others, and please provide me the link too.

Then think about how to implement those ideas. Break complicated jobs into smaller tasks. Find a solution for how to start those ideas easily. It's not complicated to do that, but it requires some energy and time! Tell what kind of projects you already support, to encourage others to do it too.

We have to build solutions. But we can't build solutions if we refuse to talk about them. Activists have to act. And the first step is to share useful thoughts, in the most efficient way.

I might not be the best activist in the world, but at least I'm doing my best to become a good activist. I shared my ideas on my blog.

http://improvemyworld.wordpress.com/2011/11/10/what-are-the-solutions/

Hope to hear from yours.

As a side note, I recently started an encyclopedia dedicated to all the activism in Spain: "Enciclopedia de Activismo en España" - http://eae.wikinet.org

Because I believe that work is better than no work.

[-] 1 points by Quark2 (109) 2 years ago

Somehow your ordering me around is not inspiring me even though you are right. I'm not one to gather other thoughts in list. My strengths lie elsewhere. We are not all the same. Plus, you seem to be doing the job you request of me.

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

Well, I am really sorry for putting in a way that sounds like an order. I really didn't meant that. Is there any way I can fix that mistake?

I really can't gather all the best ideas, and no one can. We can't gather the best ideas without talking. I really think the people should do brainstorming.

I am struggling around here to explain to the people that we have to build solutions together, and taking over other's private property is not the answer. We have to build our property. And we can't start to work together without talking and gathering ideas in the first place.

No matter where one's strength is, without finding a way to use his strengths in a community, his strength is useless. Saying that, I'm not ordering you to cooperate with me.

It's just that we have to stop waiting for a new system or ideology to fix our problems. And we have to start working together to fix our problems.

Really I would be very happy to hear about the good ideas you discovered around here, as the ideas I gathered were not gathered from here. It's impossible to read all the forum to find those valuable ideas.

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

"Do you really expect democracy when we no longer even have our Republic?"

What you said there is FUD based on empty words. The people in USA have the freedom to associate and to have activities together. Starting from editing Wikipedia and cleaning the streets together and ending with creating cooperatives with production facilities, they have the freedom to improve their lives. They can produce goods and money with their activities and eventually pay all the debts your dumb/evil politicians created for your country.

The people can put pressure on all the charities and NGO's to force them to stop being fake, artificial and frauds, and to really solve problems of the poor, instead of making them to depend on help. The people can put pressure on the government, to ask it to become transparent.

The people have the minimum freedom and democracy needed to buy back the financial independence of your country. Unlike the people of Kyrgyzstan, Somalia, Uzbekistan, Bangladesh or many other countries.

The people can associate and to solve all the problems of their communities, making the politicians and the government almost redundant.

[-] -1 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

Really? How much more transparent and blatant does it need to be for people to realize the truth is exactly as stated by congress many years ago?

"The people can put pressure on the government, to ask it to become transparent."

"What you said there is FUD based on empty words."

How about plain English? Empty words based on whatever, you say.

However, go to the library of congress and read it for yourself, if you don't fear the truth, it's all there for you to see.

[-] 2 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

"How much more transparent and blatant does it need to be for people to realize the truth is exactly as stated by congress many years ago?"

Your (rhetorical) question doesn't contradict what I said.

"However, go to the library of congress and read it for yourself"

I don't need to do that. But I already told you that the people can buy back the independence of their country.

"How about plain English? Empty words based on whatever, you say."

Yes, based on FUD (Fear, uncertainty and doubt). Because it looks like you suggest that there is no democracy left, and there is almost nothing the people can do now. And I proved exactly the opposite - the people still have a lot of freedom in order to get back what belongs to them. If you think I am wrong, then prove it, or at least come with any indication that I am wrong.

You refused to address my message, and you kept repeating yourself. That's not dialogue, that's monologue.

[-] -1 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

It cannot be bought back..........

[-] 2 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

Prove it.

The people can make cooperatives, they can save money, and pay all the debts of your country. After that, when any entity claims it has any rights over your country, that means a declaration of war. But only after paying debts, of course, not before.

[-] -1 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

You prove it, I'll either live long enough to see it or I won't, so this isn't me calling you out brandishing my six shooter in Dodge City.

However, I will suggest that if you watched and listened to congressional budget discussions in the last five years, you'll have noticed the discussions being instantly stonewalled when it's been suggested that even the interest payments be made current and government spending cuts be made, on the whole, as opposed to spending increases.

Meanwhile, China quietly increases it's entire market and economy and will very soon emerge as the planets economic superpower.

Besides, this nation cannot ever even repay the interest on it's debts, much less the principal. Prove me wrong and that the numbers tossed about by the District of Criminals actually reflects anything other than the accruing interest owed..... and that there are no other debts, or their instruments, which have been cleverly hidden in plain sight.

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

If the people will build cooperatives, then they will reshape the whole economy. They can save money, and they can pay debts and interests.

Since 150 years ago, the people talk about socialism/communism as being the solution and they never found the time to build it.

So it's the people's fault, in the first place

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

A local democratic, free, highly organized libertarian socialist society is what we should strive for: http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1320873951_the_society_we_should.html

[-] -2 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

Damned near anything would be better than the farce of a government that now RULES us.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

Actually, it's the financial elite that rules us: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN2Q6sdh6Bg

[-] -1 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

"The receivers of the United States Bankruptcy are the International Bankers, via the United Nations, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. All United States Offices, Officials, and Departments are now operating within a de facto status in name only under Emergency War Powers. With the Constitutional Republican form of Government now dissolved, the receivers of the Bankruptcy have adopted a new form of government for the United States. This new form of government is known as a Democracy, being an established Socialist/Communist order under a new governor for America. This act was instituted and established by transferring and/or placing the Office of the Secretary of Treasury to that of the Governor of the International Monetary Fund. Public Law 94-564, page 8, Section H.R. 13955 reads in part: "The U.S. Secretary of Treasury receives no compensation for representing the United States."

My understanding is that the secretary is indeed compensated, but, not by the US "government".

[-] -3 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (-184) 2 years ago

tell me.....how do you democratically, and freely, force someone to use their own resources to benefit the mob that mandates them to do so....

You have an employer who created the edifices, machinery, processes, and organization of their enterprise so that you, the employee can just walk into a role and be paid for your time within that system.....and now you want the control of all the things the employer provided beforehand to make it possible for you to work and earn money?

why would anyone put together an enterprise only to have it usurped and stolen by the likes of your "democratic" tyranny?

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

If one likes the idea of people having a democratic influence in the things they´re a part of and which affect them - real democracy in other words - then that would certainly include democracy in the workplace and community. There´s a name for this society building democracy from below, it´s called Libertarian Socialism. Anyone who likes the idea of real participatory democracy in which people are in control of their own lives and work, should work for Libertarian Socialism.

[-] -1 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (-184) 2 years ago

it's called fantasy land, as there will be no workplaces or communities of note to democratically control, why would men make the effort to establish enterprises with they could, and would be co-opted by mob rule.....please answer that question and don't ignore it this time.....

in any "socialism" some must be forced, not by result, or circumstance but by compulsion and direct threat, to bend to the will of the collective.....that is not a free society

a truly free society allows for effort and reward and also consequence for actions, even when the consequences are unpleasant....THAT is freedom

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

The were no examples of parlamentary democracy in feudalism..look what happened.

I want democracy so I want the people in the different communities deciding how thir communities shold look like and which tasks that should be prioritized etc.

No, I want freedom - people having the right to control their lives and workplace: http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1320873951_the_society_we_should.html

Libertarian Socialism strongly supports individual rights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu8J_UKKa-c&feature=related

[-] 0 points by Dumpthechump (96) 2 years ago

Once again sff80 reveals his democratic obsession.

He fails to see that many societies became tired of the anarchy that democracy created. The classic example is Athens in the Peloponnesian War. When a tyrant was in power e.g. Pericles, he tried to bring about peace. When the democrats were in power this is when the acquisitive capitalistic spirit ruled!

After 22 years of fighting Sparta sued for peace at a disadvantage to itself. The democrats were ruling Athens then and refused the offer - they wanted Sparta's complete capitulation (just as the USA and Israel want from Iran!).

The result: the desperate Spartans reinstated their admiral, Lysander, who in tandem with Sparta's army besieging Athens once more, sailed to Gallipoli, destroyed the Athenian fleet and cut off the wheat supply (read "oil" today!).

Result: end of Athens, end of democracy, end of Sparta in the resulting anarchy. Neighboring Maceonia takes over - its King Philip ruled all Greece an his son Alexander founded an empire! No wonder Plato cursed democracy!

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

You're making no sense. I want a highly organized modern, technological libertarian socialist society; in other words, your stories from Athens are totally irrelevant. I suspect you of trolling and I will probably ignore you in the future.

[-] -1 points by Dumpthechump (96) 2 years ago

Aha! When you can't answer the question you have to resort to blotting out the evidence!

Ancient Greece is most relevant, obviously, because they are the ones who invented democracy in the first place. Likewise Judaism with egalitarianism.

The point is that the HIGHLY ORGANIZED and technologically savvy society that you desire CANNOT be constructed on Libertarian Socialist grounds because the fundamental differences in human characters will ensure the breakdown of such social arrangements.

This is best seen by studying the Spanish Civil War where the Republican forces, initially anarchist-dominated, refused to organize to fight the Francoist uprising. Only the Communists organized to fight but their methods alienated and demoralized the anarchists.

The ansrchists refusal to organize and the coercive Communist methods both failed to stem the Nationalist advance, despite the Republicans initially having the bulk of the population.

If OWS wishes actually to achieve something, it will have to start to consider creating hierarchical positions that can engender mass approval. Democracy and libertarianism have only limited roles here despite their superficial appeal to many.

After all, other countries and movements have achieved such aims with mass approval!

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

In struggle's world, everyone behaves like angels and "solidarity" is a magic wand that makes everything work oh so smoothly.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6213) 2 years ago

Hi April.

No, you're wrong. I have never said that all people will behave like angels. What I'm saying is that in a libertarian socialist society fundamental elements of human nature like solidarity would become a much bigger part of society. Like I've said before: If the society encourages cooperation and solidarity, guess what, it would produce many cooperative and soldaric humans!

[-] 1 points by gonzo1 (48) 2 years ago

The ownership is not the problem. The speculation is the problem. The people can't buy the things they produce, because they are too expensive (speculation). Then they lose jobs, and they have no means to produce the things they need or to get any money.

The government at least can create companies to provide a healthy alternative to the "wonderful" private sector. The prices of the products will be reasonable, and will force the private sector to reduce the speculation.

The problem is in the politicians who claim they are socialists and they are not what they claim they are (like for example Obama)