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Forum Post: OK - We've ENTERED the SILLY SEASON: I thought it was just the fringe, but NOW it's going MAINSTREAM

Posted 1 year ago on Dec. 18, 2012, 8:47 a.m. EST by therising (6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Former Oklahoma Gov. Frank Keating was interviewed on CNN a few minutes ago and he was pushing for teachers and principals to carry guns in schools. He did it in kind of a scary kindly way wrapped up in sentimentality and concern for the children. I had thought that this initial chatter from gun zealots about more guns in elementary schools being the solution was just from the fringe, but now we're hearing it on mainstream media on CNN with people who are supposedly respected public officials. He also had the whole shtick down where he ignored the interviewers tough questions but seemed to come across as positive. He carefully talked about this being a problem of evil, hinting to the masses that they not only need to cling to their guns but also to their religion. He made it clear that there was no connection between all these shootings and our gun crazed culture. Then he went on to blame the entertainment industry.

People, we've entered the silly season. We need to find a way to have more nonviolent direct actions on this and other issues that draw attention to sources / websites with information about what's really going on here. We need to compete with the slick marketing that is going on right now directed towards the 99%. The 99% are being severely mislead on guns, the environment, the economy and much more. Here's how we can go further and compete with the propaganda of the 1% that has cast a spell over the American public: http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-dont-see-the-power-we-have-in-our-hands-to-tran/

I wish the 2nd amendment zealots would get a little excited about the first amendment. Where were they at nonviolent protests when innocent peaceful protestors were pushed out of parks across the country for exercising their first amendment rights? Oh, wait -- the 2nd amendment zealots are beholden to corporations :). So they kind of roll with what the corporations want. Now it makes sense.

46 Comments

46 Comments


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[-] 3 points by MsStacy (1035) 1 year ago

Personally I'd be in favor of eliminating guns from the hands of the public. It's important to note that a change like that only solves the problem of shooting deaths. It does little to stem violence.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 1 year ago

I don't think that taking guns out of civilian hands will necessarily put an end to spree violence, and nor do I think that it's the right answer so much as it is the easy one. What I'd prefer to see is tying of firearm ownership to training and mental health (and furthermore, I'd like to see some sort of significant commitment to expand access and quality of mental healthcare in the hopes of identifying and treating people with serious illnesses before incidents like Sandy Hook happen).

[-] 1 points by MsStacy (1035) 1 year ago

It doesn't really matter to me what is done. In reality nothing can ever make people completely safe. As long as there are guns there will be violence involving their use. If you want to eliminate gun violence then you would have to eliminate the gun. No registration system, training, mental health screening is going to totally eliminate gun violence.

I know that it is impossible to undo a technological development, so guns will be with us and so will gun violence. My personal preference is for no guns, no floods, no crime, no earthquakes. Doesn't matter what I want though, these things are with us and will stay with us.

The real problem isn't guns it is people's violent nature. Again there is a solution to that but it's also one we won't ever intentionally choose. Eliminate all people eliminates all violence.

[-] -1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

eliminating guns could solve it -
but sadly, it is impossible
do you think this is attainable:


“MY” gun control law ………….. ver 2.0

my concept is SIMPLY based on seeing a similarity between cars & guns.

If you want to argue that we don’t have a constitutional right to own a car –
and we have a right to bear arms, frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn.
You do not have a legal right to bear a tank or bazooka or automatic machine gun.

Consider these two cases:

  1. you leave your locked car parked on the street – some one steals it, hot wires it and uses it to murder someone – are YOU legally responsible ?
  2. you leave your unlocked car parked on the street – with keys in the ignition – some one steals it, and uses it to murder someone – are YOU legally responsible for your negligence?

Here is my proposal for a NATIONAL gun law:

All procedure fees will be priced to be very profitable
All present guns and owners will be covered by these laws
.......................................................and - no - this plan will not SOLVE all gun problems


►1► all gun owners must be licensed and tested with all guns that they own and pass a written test

if you own a motor cycle, a dump truck, and a car – you are tested in each
written gun test - to guarantee the owner's understanding of gun laws being forced to know the law - via the test - means the police know who you are - and you may be less likely to commit a crime

►2► every year, you must prove that you have gun liability insurance & be background checked and prove that your gun is properly locked when not used .

insurance should be at least as high as car insurance [ I would like $1,000,000 ]
you must prove your car insurance
annual back ground check to verify your suitability to own guns
every gun must be locked in a gun case or have a trigger lock

►3► as the owner of a gun, you are legally responsible for what is done with it.

the owner will be much less likely to leave a gun accessible to a family member or thief

►4► every gun must be registered and tested - and sample fired bullet stored

knowing that your gun & its bullets are so easily traced will make you think before using it


peripherally-

if we legalize drugs, we will clear out jail cells to fill with gun law breakers
and free up police "time" for real crime investigation

penalties and fees must be very high in money & jail time – especially after the first offense

no citizens ( except dealers & real collectors ) need more than a small number of guns

fees should be higher for more guns.

Gun fees should be high enough to create a very substantial gun buy-back program

The nra fighting against this - will be balanced by the insurance companies fighting for it

But the nra may be in favor of this when the gun companies understand that a gun owner can get paid to turn in their gun and they will be able to buy a new gun – with an INTEGRATED lock .

I am fundamentally NOT opposed to confiscation, but we WILL get higher compliance and lower opposition to high fees & buyback. We need to take a position of reducing guns like assault weapons such as semi-automatic rifles – rather than punishing a gun nut who spent $10,000 on an armory.


........................................................what do you think ?
........................................................what can we do - that CAN be done ?

▬►▬►▬►▬►▬►▬►▬►,,,,,,,,WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN & SENATORS !!!!!!! ……………………………………………………… http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/


This should wake up America to the truth about
guns

This should wake up America to the truth about
gun company profits

This should wake up America to the truth about
gun company profits buying congress

This should wake up America to the truth about
ALL CAPITALIST PROFITS BUYING CONGRESS

It is NOT just the gun money,
it is the
prison privatization money,
war money,
oil money,
drug company money,
armaments money,
bank money

government of the people, by the rich, for the corporations

we MUST disconnect capitalism from democracy

http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

[-] 2 points by MsStacy (1035) 1 year ago

So much of the misuse of gun violence is the result of someone that hasn't gotten the gun legally in the first place. If there are guns available, and in all honestly we will probably always have guns available, then there will be gun crimes. Adding all kinds of hoops to jump through to get a gun might make us feel good and feel like we're accomplishing something but I think it's a useless exercise.

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

I would bet that half of [ non-criminal ] illegal gun owners would NOT risk a year in jail

[-] 2 points by MsStacy (1035) 1 year ago

True, but it can do nothing to stop someone from obtaining a gun illegally. The boy in Connecticut didn't own a gun, I doubt many of the gang members shooting each other in Chicago bother to get guns legally either.

It's a nice source or revenue for government and it will ease the minds of a public that wants to believe something can be done. I just don't see it as something that will actually change the level of violence much.

[-] -1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Well, I think violence comes from isolation that breeds fear. Once we join together in community, we won't be so afraid of each other and so violent.

[-] 3 points by MsStacy (1035) 1 year ago

I don't see that as something possible for human beings to do. We seem to be tribal in nature and violent, especially toward those we consider not of our group. Mixing in groups that are unwilling or unable to assimilate into the existing culture simply brings those that are different closer. Politics, culture, religion only allow for people to come together if they give up their ideals and culture and be absorbed.

[-] -1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I disagree. I think we are moving in the direction of community. Individualism is OK but it seems we don't truly fulfill ourselves as human beings until we ALSO engage in community with others. Our Puritanical streak mixed with other factors has caused the balance in U.S. to be tipped way towards individualism. And perhaps part of this is intentional. . . Because if we the 99% ever realized that we have more in common than we have separating us, we'd start making decisions from a position of strength instead of making demands from a position of divided weakness. Through consumerism, materialism, nihilism and fear, we've remained separated. That's how 1% of the population has been able to rig the system to benefit only them for so long. How else could 1% rule over 99% and keep taking more and more in a country where each person has a vote? :) Albert Einstein said this:

“A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.” Dostoevsky wrote the following in the Brothers Karamazov (all of the following paragraphs are Dostoevsky):

"Today, everyone asserts his own personality and strives to live a full life as an individual. But these efforts lead not to a full life but to suicide, because instead of realizing his personality, man only slips into total isolation. For in our age, man has been broken up into self-contained individuals, each of whom retreats into his lair, trying to stay away from the rest, hiding himself and his belongings from the rest of mankind, and finally isolating himself from people and people from him. And while he accumulates material wealth in his isolation, he thinks with satisfaction how mighty and secure he has become, because he is mad and cannot see that the more goods he accumulates, the deeper he sinks into suicidal impotence. The reason for this is that he has become accustomed to relying only on himself; he has split off from the whole and become an isolated unit; he has trained his soul not to rely on human help, not to believe in man and mankind, and only to worry that the wealth and privileges he has accumulated may get lost.

Everywhere men today are turning scornfully away from the truth that the security of the individual cannot be achieved by his isolated efforts but only by mankind as a whole.

BUT AN END to this fearful isolation is bound to come and all men will understand how unnatural it was for them to have isolated themselves from one another. This will be the spirit of the new era and people will look in amazement at the past when they sat in darkness and refused to see the light. . . . . . Until that day, we must keep hope alive, and now and then a man must set an example, even if only an isolated one, by trying to lift his soul out of its isolation and offering it up in an act of brotherly communion, even if he is taken for one of God's fools.

This is necessary to keep the great idea alive."

[-] 2 points by MsStacy (1035) 1 year ago

I don't pretend to have any special insight, it's simply my belief that we are tribal in nature with a potential for violence toward those we see as different. I, unfortunately, don't see that as changing.

[-] -2 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

It is Stacy. It is.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

They put police outside most of the city schools in Rochester, and Ive noticed some in Tampa, so why not just make it standard?

Im really not for increasing the police state, and think that this crime is deeper than this kid and his moms guns, but whatever.

[-] 1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 1 year ago

This latest shooting seems to be wake up call to everyone including responsible gun owners. People with Keating's view are becoming more of a fringe group. We need a program to get semi-automatics out of circulation immediately. They should be destoyed.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I'm with you.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Other nations restrict guns and make sure people have easy access to health care. People in the U.S. have hard time getting health care and have an easy time getting guns. I wonder why people in U.S. resort to violence?

[-] 3 points by MsStacy (1035) 1 year ago

I actually see that as a perfect reflection of the historic American culture. A sort of individualism gone crazy. You're on your own with your health care and on your own as far as protection is concerned.

[-] -1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think you're right. You have it nailed. Individualism is OK but it seems we don't truly fulfill ourselves as human beings until we ALSO engage in community with others. Our Puritanical streak mixed with other factors has caused the balance in U.S. to be tipped way towards individualism. And perhaps part of this is intentional. . . Because if we the 99% ever realized that we have more in common than we have separating us, we'd start making decisions from a position of strength instead of making demands from a position of divided weakness. Through consumerism, materialism, nihilism and fear, we've remained separated. That's how 1% of the population has been able to rig the system to benefit only them for so long. How else could 1% rule over 99% and keep taking more and more in a country where each person has a vote? :)

Albert Einstein said this:

“A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”

Dostoevsky wrote the following in the Brothers Karamazov (all of the following paragraphs are Dostoevsky):

"Today, everyone asserts his own personality and strives to live a full life as an individual. But these efforts lead not to a full life but to suicide, because instead of realizing his personality, man only slips into total isolation. For in our age, man has been broken up into self-contained individuals, each of whom retreats into his lair, trying to stay away from the rest, hiding himself and his belongings from the rest of mankind, and finally isolating himself from people and people from him.

And while he accumulates material wealth in his isolation, he thinks with satisfaction how mighty and secure he has become, because he is mad and cannot see that the more goods he accumulates, the deeper he sinks into suicidal impotence. The reason for this is that he has become accustomed to relying only on himself; he has split off from the whole and become an isolated unit; he has trained his soul not to rely on human help, not to believe in man and mankind, and only to worry that the wealth and privileges he has accumulated may get lost.

Everywhere men today are turning scornfully away from the truth that the security of the individual cannot be achieved by his isolated efforts but only by mankind as a whole.

BUT AN END to this fearful isolation is bound to come and all men will understand how unnatural it was for them to have isolated themselves from one another. This will be the spirit of the new era and people will look in amazement at the past when they sat in darkness and refused to see the light. . . . . . Until that day, we must keep hope alive, and now and then a man must set an example, even if only an isolated one, by trying to lift his soul out of its isolation and offering it up in an act of brotherly communion, even if he is taken for one of God's fools.

This is necessary to keep the great idea alive."

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 1 year ago

Nothing good ( for us) comes easy or better yet, evil/greed takes the path of least resistance ( capitalism) .

[-] 0 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

And I think we can spin ourselves out of this vicious cycle into a virtuous one.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 1 year ago

That's a very wonderful thought.

[-] 0 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I think we're on our way. The cat is out of the bag. The jig is up. The knowledge is spreading. We have the power: http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-dont-see-the-power-we-have-in-our-hands-to-tran/

[-] 0 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Wow, you're right about that. We have the power to turn this thing around. It's not just guns. Corporate media run by the 1% are skewing our views of environment and economy too. Educated populace is necessary for well-functioning democracy. It may seem hopeless to some, like our system just won't work, but that's the nihilistic mindset of the 1% ruling our heads. I

don't think we have to scrap our system. Some say we do but I disagree. My own view is that we have a very good system designed by the founders and that it has been temporarily hijacked by corporatists. I think we can unseat these hijackers by bringing their coup out into the light of day, showing that they've rigged the game. And I think we do this by getting the word out in two ways: via mainstream media (from nonviolent direct action events with great creativity and turnout) and by alternative media. With regard to alternative media, my view is that every direct action needs a website and that that website needs to be designed such that someone who is a factory worker, manager or home maker with their own busy lives can read it and connect with it. It needs to be approachable. And that web address needs to be prominently and clearly displayed on banners and every sign so that, no matter how hard the networks try, they can't have the cameras avoid that website.

If it sounds like I'm zooming back and forth between the on the ground view and the 30,000 ft view, that is intentional. I think that we need to be mindful of both.

We can do this. We have the power. http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-dont-see-the-power-we-have-in-our-hands-to-tran/ ------- http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-message-to-all-the-well-meaning-democrats-and-re/

[-] -1 points by KevinPotts (368) 1 year ago

“My own view is that we have a very good system designed by the founders and that it has been temporarily hijacked by corporatists.” -therising

A system that can be hijacked by corporatists is not “a very good system” to begin with if you ask me. “Choosing” between 2 Masters to make all of your decisions for you and for everyone else is not real democracy nor does it by any means make you and everyone else “free”. Being told over and over your entire life that “you are free” and “you live in a democracy” does not make it so. In a Democratic Republic, such as the United States, the people are, for the most part, powerless and totally at the mercy of their chosen Masters. We have no real political or economic power.

“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” -Goethe

“The American Revolution was the result of a series of social, political, and intellectual transformations in early American society and government, collectively referred to as the American Enlightenment. Americans rejected the aristocracies that dominated Europe at the time, championing instead the development of republicanism based on the Enlightenment understanding of liberalism. Among the significant results of the revolution was the creation of a democratically-elected representative government responsible to the will of the people. However, sharp political debates erupted over the appropriate level of democracy desirable in the new government, with a number of Founders fearing mob rule.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution

Those Founding Fathers who feared Real Democracy and Real Freedom decided that WE THE PEOPLE shouldn’t be allowed to have any Real Power, so we never got any. They never trusted us to truly govern ourselves to begin with. They thought of us (The People) as a dangerous, irresponsible mob -which was the same type of mentality the British Monarchy used to justify its rule over the British Empire. The same British Empire that we had just fought A Revolutionary War over to break free from. Instead of becoming Truly Free and Truly Liberated, we only ended up trading one Master for another. Just like we still do to this very day every four years when we “vote”.

[-] 0 points by KevinPotts (368) 1 year ago

Noam Chomsky - Why The Elites Hate Democracy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ux8Q3XC98U

[-] 0 points by KevinPotts (368) 1 year ago

America Is Not A Democracy - Noam Chomsky http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeTbDdl7XiE

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

In stead of kvetching here - which makes YOU feel better -


there are 26 angels begging you to DO SOMETHING -
conact your congressman -


http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/
just enter your zip code


DEMAND new gun control laws
strict penalties
license all owners
register all guns
background checks
liability insurance

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Good list and good comment

[-] 0 points by highlander (-163) 1 year ago

Until the forensic psychologists finish their study, let us leave the 2nd amendment alone.
Metal detectors at elementary schools? How about an extremely limited number of entrances and exits at school? Chances are, these measures will pass through fairly quickly as opposed to taking on the 2nd amendment or the entertainment industry

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

no one should have a gun until they have had 20 years of therapy

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Which forensics are you waiting for exactly? Trajectory of bullets? Entry wound sizes? If the psychologists diagnose shooter with one or another disorder? Will that make or break your decision personally on whether to advocate for gun control? What exactly would it take before you would advocate for gun control?

Haven't we been going slow for a long long time? How's that been workin' out for us? Your go slow approach kind of reminds me of how many white southerners and even northerners cried out that Martin King Jr. and civil rights advocates were pushing too fast. What exactly is the right speed at which we should be traveling to protect the rights of children?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Why not arm all the 6-7 year olds? That'll do it.

Sorry. Not funny. but Arming teachers is almost as ludicrous. They are teaching not patrolling. And having someone patrol can be id'd and targeted 1st.

Better gun safety (incl banning assault weapons) better mental health care, observation.

That's the answer

[-] 0 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I agree wholeheartedly. The needs of human beings need to have priority over the needs of corporations to profit (from guns or anything else). We have to draw the line. Unbridled capitalism doesn't work.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

And no matter what the the gun nutters say about the 2nd amendment this gun crazy situation is all about gun mfg profit.

Enough already.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

The NRA is the marketing arm of gun manufacturers and they are doing a fabulous job keeping the customers fooled.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

And man the money that is being made by those merchants of death.

We have to be outraged at the mfg!!

We never hear them called out.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

PS - I wish the 2nd amendment zealots would get a little excited about the first amendment. Where were they at nonviolent protests when innocent peaceful protestors were pushed out of parks across the country for exercising their first amendment rights? Oh, wait -- the 2nd amendment zealots are beholden to corporations :). So they kind of roll with what the corporations want. Now it makes sense.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

They're a bunch mindless zombies being led by the nose.

It will take a great effort to turn them. They will be the last to come around.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Funny to think about but in the end, as Martin L King, Jr. put it, we (the millions who have woken up from the corporate dream) need to win them over with love (via nonviolent direct action that brings their injustices out into the light).

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Yes. He WAS a prophet. And as always on point. Years of hard work. Slow progress, Setbacks, & struggle.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

So true :)

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

MLK Would support this Occupy effort.

https://www.facebook.com/OccupyTheNRA

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Oh yes. I think he'd love that!

[-] 0 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I believe the time has come for nonviolent action of all kinds, direct, indirect -- hitting nonviolently from all sides. Let's all call them out! Company by company. Politician by politician. Lobbying group by lobbying group.