Forum Post: Occupy Wall Street, 2 Months: Fighting Back
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 20, 2011, 9:30 p.m. EST by Outlier
(115)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
November 19, 2011--This was my first visit to The Occupation since the police raid in the early hours of Tuesday, November 15, 2011. Metal barricades surround the entire park with designed entrance and exit points guarded by Brookfield security officers. The western portion of the park was vacant, except for security and police. The eastern portion of the park contained fragmented groups of occupiers with an abundance of fringe messengers such as 9/11 conspiracy theorists.
It was also darker because of the absence of generators and lighting previously provided by the occupiers but disallowed under the new rules. Moreover it was scarier due to the increase in confrontational incidents between protesting civilians and between the police and occupiers. Within the first 20 minutes of my arrival there were three such confrontations. In one such incident 4 or 5 NYC Police Officers wrestled a demonstrator to the ground and removed him in handcuffs. During the struggle, the encircling crowd closed in on the police. Someone in the crowd shouted: "grab his gun!" My adrenaline sky-rocketed as I became afraid of what might follow.
Luckily, a cool-headed occupier implored the mob to "calm down" and said, "We don't want a riot." The crowd resorted to chants of "the whole world is watching" and "what did he do?" Evidently, from talking with both the occupiers and Brookfield security personal the incident involved someone who purportedly cut down some of the Christmas lights that have been strung-up on the trees within the park. Was I in Liberty Plaza, Zuccotti Park or some strangely disturbing amalgamation of the two? Read more
Great piece, but I still think we need to get sleeping bags and tents back into the park if we are going to genuinely re-create a model community for the new society. Also, such a visible public space makes it easy for people to learn about the movement any hour of the day or night.
I don't disagree. It was a much more peaceful place during the full-blown occupation!
Much more informative as well.
That is disturbing. We don't want someone associated with us shouting 'grab his gun.'
Someone needs to work within that group to establish some control - a disciplined mindset - that reflects the principle of non-violence - if they are to maintain an occupation there and see to it no one gets shot.
Just my two cents.
There is a tension in the front lines that must be akin to war. Bless the warrior whose strength is not to fight.
Is that your piece?
http://www.outlierideas.com/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-2-months-fighting.html
If so, great work. You successfully scared the shit out of me. That combined with
http://occupywallst.org/forum/al-qaeda-sympathizer-plotted-to-bomb-police-ny-may/#comment-398308
has me concerned just a bit.
What's going on down there now?
Can we get them out of there? Or alternatively, can we get more people in, to circulate among them and spread the right vibe - ?
That is my hope--to overwhelm the scene with individuals radiating peace and reason.
I sincerely hope this helps - if it doesn't I will happily delete it.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/bloodshed-in-freedom-square/
Keep me updated on what's happening down there, will ya?
I only occasionally venture into the Occupation. I blog about other stuff as well. I visited your site. I like your poetry!
Thanks, there are some gems on there - and a couple have been published.
I guess you don't have any news about what's happening at the Square? Probably I shouldn't obsess on it. Thing is you painted a convincing picture of storm clouds - and then there are other events as well.
I'm concerned.
[Deleted]
Bless the movement who is really non-violent and doesn't pump up its supporters by using news articles from other countries at war: http://occupywallst.org/forum/egypt-rising-against-military-rule-security-forces/
agreed
Occupy is spreading the idea of violence with news reports such as this: http://occupywallst.org/forum/egypt-rising-against-military-rule-security-forces/
Haven't read it yet, will pull it up for later. International news in and of itself does have value - but we should be clear about what is reflective of us and what is not. We can't presume we are engaged in a global, violent revolution and use that perception for inspirational purposes.
My principle concern runs along the lines found here -
http://occupywallst.org/forum/al-qaeda-sympathizer-plotted-to-bomb-police-ny-may/#comment-398308
Note the comment below mine?
How do I say this . ..
The homeless are a part of the 99 - but they do not belong on the front line. they are too vulnerable and have already suffered more than enough.
After seeing the Burlington Occupy first hand, I have concerns about what is happening in Freedom Square now - and I'm not articulating those concerns very well at the moment.
RedJazz wants to reoccupy with tents - that's cool. As a temporary, weekend flash city sure, maybe. We could celebrate Washington's crossing of the Delaware, or his birthday, or something. Commemorate Valley Forge and their suffering by suffering as they did with a temporary winter camp combined with our over all message - that we seek justice of some sort and that can be refined easily enough.
But the homeless do not belong on the front lines. They can get themselves killed, and us with them, in ways that might harm our image and result in sacrifice that has gone to waste.
I'm not ideologically opposed to the principle of sacrifice - I think it may be inevitable, however unfortunate that may be. But as I said on the link above, not like this.
I haven't communicated anything of value here, have I? I feel like I'm mumbling, not articulating. Just got up.
More coffee please . . .
The problem is not so much the article itself, but its timing. A few days ago, Occupy released this: http://occupywallst.org/article/whom-do-you-serve/#comments then the following news related to police and authority was this: http://occupywallst.org/article/egypt-rising-against-military-rule-security-forces/#comments
This timing is highly questionable for a protest that claims to be non-violent. It seems the goal is the absolute opposite. 1) Report the horrible action by the police (it was really horrible), 2) Report how the Egyptians are preparing to fight against the military. It doesn't inspire peace. Not be a long shot. Oops... did I just write 'shot'?
There is value in reporting what is true - ie: our officers don't want to look like them.
I'll try to review what you have linked here - I've got a lot of stuff to do . . . we've got snow coming soon and I'm still not done getting ready -
and there is the issue of
http://occupywallst.org/forum/hanning-chad-election-of-2012-how-do-we-prevent-it/
which I haven't read yet but has been on my mind and I do hope we as a movement can make some statement, and stake some position, with believable manpower - to circumvent the possibility.
But the issue you raise is important. I'm edgy myself - it is very useful. Or so it seems. It keeps people off balance and guessing. As a group, it is much more difficult to maintain control with that kind of thing.
It may be late tonight when I get back to this issue - don't hesitate to pm me with the links if you see I haven't followed through.
Please. Seriously.
Regardless of the news this site chooses to report, the overwhelming majority of occupiers that I have engaged in conversation, both face-to-face at Liberty Plaza and on-line, are non-violent.
Rank-and-file occupiers are nonviolent.
There is common ground to be found among Americans of all political stripes. Corporations should not have influence on our political process. That is the province of American citizens alone.
I choose to emphasize what is peaceful and unifying. In our time of crisis it is the duty of ordinary Americans to seek common ground.
I consider those that emphasize divisiveness and violence to be traitors.
What is your game?
It's a deep game:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/save-your-mind-from-infiltration-ignore-the-psyops/
I saw your post earlier. I appreciate your work!
He's a fun one huh? Confusion and manipulation.
There's nothing to it.
Oh... so deep...
could you elaborate? i see you're a little busy :) i'll wait.
i'm sorry, that failed to have any meaning. could you try words now?
The meaning is that my game is ultra deep, just like an0n claims. He's right, I'm a master pysops paid by the government. I was trained by Karl Rove himself.
Or, you can just say I post arguments, and that some are using ad hominem techniques in a desperate attempt to undermine them. A few intelligent posters are offering counter-arguments which is the correct way to handle a discussion.
At best, you're a Karl Rove flunky. You sound more like someone who was trained by Bozo. Ad hominem, ad hominem etc.
i have only seen you allude to providing data at a later date to back your argument today. this is a tired tactic used on youtube since it's inception by Alex jones wanabees and more. until you have such data, your pitch is weak.
It takes time to formulate a proper line of argumentation. I have to look at counter arguments first in order to counter them in a post. If you want a sneak peek you can look here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-made-a-grave-error-and-it-should-be-rectified/#comment-398944
Again, if you are not interested in my line of argumentation, then you need not respond. If you wish to respond with counter arguments, you are more than welcomed to do so. Using ad hominems is quite pointless.
I believe the gentleman you are arguing with and several others are addressing this as well. If you read the article at Top, it also addresses the mood of the crowd being one that overpowers the few with violent tendencies. I think you are aware that many on this site pretend to be supporters and espouse extreme material. Further, your offering to explain the purposeful propaganda to a mod is equally interesting.
Don't believe everything you read. Just look at the arguments and defend against them properly, or ignore them if you do not agree that they are strong or don't have the time to discuss. If I was truly a paid propagandist, do you think I would write that directly in the forum? I would write a private message to the mods. Don't be so gullible.
You are side stepping my question. Did you or did you not perform the exchange I addressed?
Of course I did. You can read it for yourself. It's absolutely transparent. I did not delete it and posted it for everyone to see. You linked to it yourself! Write a post about it if you wish all the others to analyze what it really means.
Your line of argumentation takes as much time to formulate as it takes to flip through the pages of Husler--ad hominem, ad hominem.
About as deep as an evaporated puddle.
I agree. You should tell that to an0n. He believes I'm a deep and highly intelligent psyops.
Your shallowness is exceeded only by your verbosity.
I have no game. I am deconstructing the propaganda used by Occupy. If you do not agree, that is fine. I never said the protesters were violent at this time, I said the propaganda Occupy is using is meant to turn them to violence. I'll be posting a deeper analysis today or tomorrow.
OWS has helped focus national attention on the fact that the corrupting influence of multi-national corporations on our political process threatens to undermine our beloved democratic republic. This is not propaganda.
Your "deconstruction" is an obvious attempt to undermine the effort of American patriots of all political stripes to regain equal access to our legislative process and equal protection under the law.
You don't sound like a plutocrat. My guess is that you are not even American and have no vested interest in fixing our political process.
P.S.
I look forward to your "deeper analysis" almost as much as I look forward to the next episode of the Kardashians.
niiiice
If you do not care for my deeper analysis, then simply ignore it. That is not a problem. What's important is discussion. Again, you are free to debate with strong arguments, ad hominem techniques don't work in the long run. They'll get you a few high fives from those who agree with you, but they that's about it.
I long for deeper analysis like a desert wanderer in search of an oasis. Show me some!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-anarchic-dilemma-do-anarchies-self-destruct/
We have specific concerns about the corrupting influence of obcene money on our political process.
You bring nothing to the table to help with the cause.
Help with the cause or get lost!
There are many ways to help the cause. If you do not like my arguments, you do not have to read them. If you believe I am a troll, you can report me to the mods. You are an adult now. Start acting like one.
I know there are many ways to help the cause. Pick one and start helping or get lost.
I wonder if it's going to be all conjecture or if he will have actual information. Inquiring minds want to know :)
I like the balanced approach
Occupy has done wonderful things, but it doesn't mean it is perfect. Criticism is always good. I bring arguments, and if they are weak you can challenge them with stronger arguments. Using ad hominem techniques like you are doing does not help the discussion. My arguments are what matter, not who I am or what my motive might be. Fight the arguments, not the person behind them.
There is beauty in imperfection. You bring no arguments, only allegations. OWS is beautiful in its imperfection and a perfect representation of the diversity of our multicultural society.
Where are you from?
I bring many arguments. Where I am from is of no consequence. Again, ad hominem is useless. I have said many times where I am from, search the forum. What matters are arguments. I'll be writing a post with some very strong ones, if you wish you can read it and participate in the discussion. If not, you don't have to.
I have yet to see one argument from you.
My argument is this: OWS has brought national attention to the incestuous relationship between big money and big government. Defining the problem is a step towards fixing the problem.
As an American, I have a sincere desire to fix this problem. I have a sincere desire to eliminate the influence that multi-national corporations have on OUR government.
Therefore where we are from is of extreme consequence.
Where are you from?
Read the forum and you'll find my arguments. I agree with your argument that Occupy has brought national attention to a major problem.
Where I am from has no consequence on my arguments. It's an ad hominem. Again, I have said where I am from in many posts. I'll let you search the forum by yourself. This way, you'll have the chance to stumble upon some of my arguments.
Please indulge me with just one of your brilliant arguments right here and right now.
Edify us all!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-anarchic-dilemma-do-anarchies-self-destruct/
Wow! Purchase an inflatable doll! ad hominem, ad hominem.
I'm just using your trolling as an excuse to bump the thread and spread my link.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Writing out strong arguments in a comment is a waste of time since they don't reach many people, and simply get voted down by those who disagree. (OWS supporters usually don't bother with counter-arguments, they just attempt to hide the threads, or use ad hominems.) I'm working on a big post at them moment and it will be published when it's ready.
In the meantime, you can search the forum. I have posted many arguments. Here is one piece: http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-anarchic-dilemma-do-anarchies-self-destruct/
I am ashamed to confess that I clicked on the above link and read your post. I will never be able to regain these lost moments of my life--ad hominem, ad hominem etc.
You are as ironic as merde. Do you really view yourself as profound? We are dealing with a concrete issue here. Multinational corporations have purchased our (America's) political process. There is no need for the psudo-intellectual merde.
Help us out or get lost!
The problem is not intellectualism, but the lack of it. (pseudo, not psudo)
Thank you for showing everyone how OWS is against criticism, and for letting me the chance to post my link and bump this thread.
I support rational criticism. Show me some. Do you support the elimination of multi-national corporate influence on OUR government?
If so, help us out.
You're best point tonight is that I did in fact mis-spell pseudo. Thank you for the clarification.
this guy had a good point http://occupywallst.org/forum/first-they-ignore-you-then-they-laugh-at-you-then-/
Watch tonight what happens in Egypt , and keep in mind this thing the Arab spring started over a man that was selling fruits and vegetables, without a permit, when facing the fact that he would be stopped, he set himself on fire........Tonight perhaps a million Egyptions will stand against the Military in defiance of getting rid of one ruler to replace it with another.....Now this is what we see exhibited from people who are trying to secure their chance at freedom.....You Telling me their better at this democracy thing than we are ? because they have the commitment part right....................... Americans....what are you prepared to do ??? be mildly inconvenienced,,,if that's the case, then go home and watch History on the big screen with some cheetos you can always type your congratulations on your orange keyboard later.............................................Anonymous
I admit that at this point, I am not willing to set myself on fire. Are you?
I must agree with you, self immolation seems a bit premature at this point, I will probably save that one until they at least spray me with condiments, or try and mount me with a scooter....lol I was just trying to point out in an extreme way, that a rogue pic-nic with bongos on the lawn and bacon on the grill, is if nothing else a unique ? first attempt at a cry for freedom and equality..........just saying It has always been my understanding that the response should match the attack ,and when faced with the establishments attempts at recreating a classist society that the Response should'nt just be no,,,but rather HELL NO! Anonymous
Understood. The diversity of response is a reflection of the diversity of our culture and our personalities. Diversity is healthy!
There needs to be more days of rage type of protests, ten or thirty thousand people in the streets, nationwide protests, etc. I guess it needs to be paced so it's sustainable (more like a marathon, not a sprint).
Rage sounds violent. But, I guess if your looking to garner mainstream media attention, rage is perfect.
You must be new to Occupy. "Days of Rage" was an epithet used at the beginning of Occupy in some of its posters and designed to link them to the "Days of Rage" which was a famous violent protest in Chicago which called for war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_Rage
A short excerpt:
Here are some Occupy posters with that epithet:
Here is a poster from the original "Days of Rage" in Chicago:
(see the raised fist)
I'll be making a post shortly that goes in much more detail. You might want to look out for that.
Malcolm Gladwell - same field. you aren't really arguing are you.
It's up to you to connect the dots. My argument is that a non-violent protest should not be associating itself with violent protests of the past like the "Days of Rage", or protest of our times which include military dictatorships like in Egypt. If you think this is OK, and is what a non-violent Occupy should do, then fine. We can agree to disagree.
I am an advocate for peaceful protest. I applaud OWS for bringing attention to the fact that big money is corrupting our political process.
The horizontalism of electronic information technology does not require the sensationalism of confrontational protest aimed at sucking-up to mainstream media.
I am not new to occupy. As I indicated, the above efforts are extremely successful in catering to the sensationalistic needs of the mainstream media.
Read my post!
Of course, they are sensational efforts for the media. But, they are not the types of efforts that a non-violent protest should use. Linking Occupy to Egypt and the Days of Rage is not non-violent.
As I indicated above, the overwhelming majority of occupiers I have spoken with are non-violent, regardless of what is posted on this site!
[Removed]
[Removed]