Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Objective Opinions Requested

Posted 1 year ago on Oct. 19, 2012, 9:56 p.m. EST by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I need an objective opinion, if you don't mind.

Is this ballot confusing, Or not?

.

Florida 2000 Butterfly Ballot

.

peapod has been rather persistent with his insistence that the confusion is all in my head, as you can see right here where he insists:

our picture wouldn't convince a Pre-schooler (maybe that's why you believe it). Zen life is hard; it's even harder when your stupid.......life is dry hard for you isn't it?

Of course I don't believe that, but I thought putting up a post, where the image is plainly visible, might provide an opportunity not available in a comment.

Thanks for you attention.

41 Comments

41 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 2 points by Shule (1517) 1 year ago

That ballot is a total mess.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

It should be either one column with each name on the margin or offset from the margin with each position being voted upon separated with a thick line - the designated vote to the immediate left of the candidate name or two columns with each position being voted for separated with a thick line from the next position under consideration - with the circle to be marked to the left of the candidates name ( each candidate ).

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I've never seen a comment without comment.

how odd.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yeah weird - I did complete the comment - I have never seen that happen before.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

It must have been one of those short term [ removed ] issues. I've had several of them - I've never seen one take place. Your comment is all there now. It took at least four minutes.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

NOW - The Important part - Was it coherent?

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

well yeah . . . you clearly said it should have been designed much differently!

; D

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

LOL - thx for the enthusiasm.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Hey - I'll take whatever support I can get!

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

You Sir - R - correct - Sir. Thanks 4 your support. {:-])

People - the election circle to be marked to indicate your choice immediately to the left of each name - election positions/races separated by lines.

0 - Name

0 - Name


next position

0 - Name

0 - Name

Easy Peasy - no mistakes of interpretation to be made.

BTW - only mark 1 circle to the left of the name in each category that you are voting 4. {:-])

AGAIN - mark only one name per section - ( preferably the one you want to win ).


NO - I am not being stingy - It only works if you choose one name/candidate per section.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

That ballot was deliberately designed to be misleading. that is why people like Donald Norman were complaining about it.

It was very successful.

A STATISTICAL ASSESSMENT OF BUCHANAN'S VOTE IN PALM BEACH COUNTY

Richard L. Smith

Department of Statistics

University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

Abstract:

One of the strongest allegations of voting irregularities in the recent Presidential election was that a faulty ballot design in Palm Beach County, Florida, caused many votes to cast their ballots for the Reform Party candidate Patrick Buchanan, when they intended to vote for Al Gore. We examine this statistically, by performing a regression analysis of Buchanan's vote over all 67 counties of Florida, using demographic variables (population size, race, age distribution, education level and income) and votes for other candidates as covariates. A critical point of statistical implementation is to choose a suitable transformation of the response variable to achieve approximate homoscedasticity across counties. After considering a number of alternatives, a cube root transformation (of the number of votes cast for Buchanan) is chosen. Variable selection is performed using either backward selection or the Mallows C(p) criterion, leading to similar models. The results confirm that, if the regression model is fitted using all 67 counties, then Palm Beach is an enormous outlier, with a studentized residual of 13.3, for a theoretical significance level of around 10 to the power -67 under the standard normal-theory assumptions. If the regression model is fitted to the remaining 66 counties and used to predict the Buchanan vote in Palm Beach, we obtain a point prediction of 326 and a 95% prediction interval of (181,534), compared with the actual vote reported in initial returns of 3,407. These results demonstrate conclusively that the Palm Beach County vote was indeed anomalous.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I don't know what to make of it all - I am kinda thinking that this is done to help promote the idea that politics - is hard and very complicated.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 1 year ago

Honestly no

they should do a better job of making each one look different but honestly i can understand how to vote on this

[-] 1 points by MikeMcKeel (-109) 1 year ago

It's not confusing, but it could be clearer.

The idea of an "objective opinion" is rather confusing however. It seems like a oxymoron to me. Opinions are always subjective. Here's the Oxford definition, note the last part.

"a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge "

You most likely meant an opinion backed with some solid arguments?

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I meant an opinion, based on the ballot itself and not other considerations.

As this study demonstrates this ballot did confuse a lot of people who mistakenly voted for Buchanan.

[-] 0 points by MikeMcKeel (-109) 1 year ago

You already have your answer from a serious study, so why ask here? If you don't trust that study, make a serious one of your own. You won't find "objective" opinions on a random Internet forum.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

You won't find "objective" opinions on a random Internet forum.

that is a matter of opinion.

[-] 0 points by MikeMcKeel (-109) 1 year ago

Yes, a matter of my objective opinion, just what you asked for.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I thought you were fairly clear with your opinion that opinions found on internet forums cannot be objective.

Either, in your opinion, they can be objective - or they cannot. You cannot have it both ways.

so - which is it?

[-] 1 points by MikeMcKeel (-109) 1 year ago

Objective opinion is an oxymoron, like US democracy, or military intelligence.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

so then, not only is your opinion not objective, you are in fact a liar.

right here

where you stated: Yes, a matter of my objective opinion, just what you asked for.

so . . . it appears we know even less about your actual opinion even as we know a little bit more about your moral compass . . .

[-] 1 points by MikeMcKeel (-109) 1 year ago

I was being ironic. A joke. Zen people should see this. I stated from the beginning that there is no such thing as an objective opinion. Read my comments once more.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Oh, so now you are flip flopping.

Are you running for election?

; D

[-] 1 points by MikeMcKeel (-109) 1 year ago

No flip flop, I remarked on the oxymoron in my first comment. Please, take a short moment to re-read when you are better rested.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

yes but was that before you were in favor of online objectivism or after?

[-] 1 points by MikeMcKeel (-109) 1 year ago

My comment on getting objective opinions online was sarcasm. I don't believe in the concept of objective opinions, I said as much in my first comment here. I don't believe you can get objective opinions anywhere. They don't exist.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

and so you dispute my contention that I have indeed been objectively opining . . .

what a relativistic thing to say

[-] -1 points by podman73 (-652) 1 year ago

What's sad is this is what they say people were to stupid to figure out and cost gore the election. That's so absurd, it's a line straight down for gods sake. Of anyone was confused why did they not ask then?

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Anyone that doesnt think that is a bullshit ballot needs to be slapped.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Where are numbers 1 and 2?

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I did not make the image - click the pic and inquire of the webmaster.

[-] -1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Well I wasn't aware that Bush and Cheney were on the ballot so I would say definitely.

[-] -2 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 1 year ago

So we are back to the whole "we are too stupid to figure out how to vote" crap. Hanging chads and such. You red garbage are really pathetic.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I've been complaining about human engineering since before the 2000 election. The butterfly ballot is a fine example.

The Psychology of Everyday Things was written by Donald Norman and published in 1988.

He complained about this same issue. It's wrong. Using predictable human behavior to engineer the outcome of an election is wrong - and we see quite plainly the results have been catastrophic.

[-] -2 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 1 year ago

But this means what? Does it change anything? Does it help the people? What is your point? You've been on this site since the beginning. What have you accomplished?

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

My point?

Why I thought that was perfectly clear. peabrain is an Obstinate Liar. He is engaged in the exhibition of typical repelican behavior. So are you.

Who can say what ultimate utility such concrete demonstrations may have.

Repelicans cannot commerce with either facts or with truth. They are therefore unfit to oversee all but their own personal affairs - and given the the depth, the scope, of their deceit it is clear, even the qualification for oversight of their own personal affairs may be brought into question.

Such demonstrations, it must be seen, are of immense value to the public - even if they know it not.

[-] -2 points by podman73 (-652) 1 year ago

Rofl so simple a child could do it.

[-] 3 points by ZenDog (20552) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

that is not the analysis of AskTog

The man who lost the popular vote both country-wide and in the state of Florida was recently elected President of the United States because a ballot in Palm Beach, Florida, was printed in such a way that when people attempted to vote for the Democratic candidate, Gore, many ended up voting for the conservative candidate, Buchanan, or for both Gore and Buchanan.

That the voters of America who cast their ballots for Gore feel hurt is understandable, but George Bush's supporters should not take too much comfort in their candidate's windfall. Unless swift and significant changes are made, the same thing could happen to them. In fact, in one of the many curious twists of this peculiar happening, four years ago it did.

I have used "disaster" in the title of this piece, not because having George Bush as president is in any way a disaster for the country, but because having elections decided by a handful of judges is not the way the American democracy was designed to work. ("My conservatives judges can beat up your liberal judges!") Had Al Gore eventually carried the day, the process would have been an equal disaster. The only thing different would be the half of the country distressed by it.

.

In consequence, the President in 2000 was not elected, he was appointed - by a panel of judges. Had Gore been elected, it is unlikely we would have invaded Iraq - although the pressure from the Pentagon would have certainly been overwhelming.

Had we not entered Iraq, we could have concluded our war in Afghanistan without distraction, and perhaps we could even have prevented the meltdown of the economy - certainly the warning signs were there.

[-] 4 points by NVPHIL (667) 1 year ago

Considering we had the meltdown due to two wars, the bush tax cuts, unpaid for prescription plan (which we can't even pay bulk rates), and an unregulated banking system it's a pretty good bet we wouldn't have had the meltdown. On the other hand no meltdown means no awakening of the populace to the sham our demoracy has become.

[-] 4 points by NVPHIL (667) 1 year ago

Considering we had the meltdown due to two wars, the bush tax cuts, unpaid for prescription plan (which we can't even pay bulk rates), and an unregulated banking system it's a pretty good bet we wouldn't have had the meltdown. On the other hand no meltdown means no awakening of the populace to the sham our demoracy has become.

[-] -1 points by podman73 (-652) 1 year ago

Had gore bla bla, really that's pretty sad even for you. Look I'm sorry I can't dumb myself down and say that ballot is hard to figure out. Maybe for you it is but it doesn't require a large brain........if gore lol wow......