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Forum Post: Oak Creek, WI, Domestic Terrorism Scores 7 More Kills ~ Spiking Gun Sales

Posted 2 years ago on Aug. 5, 2012, 10:48 p.m. EST by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/05/us/wisconsin-temple-shooting/index.html

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/19200010/breaking-news-seven-killed-in-wisconsin-temple-shooting

Gun Sales Spike: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2012/0725/Why-gun-sales-spike-after-mass-shootings-It-s-not-what-you-might-think

August 5, 2012 1:14 PM

Shooting at Sikh temple in Wis., at least 7 dead

Last Updated 9:34 p.m. ET

(CBS/AP) OAK CREEK, Wis. - A gunman allegedly killed six people and wounded three others before being shot dead by a police officer at a Sikh temple outside of Milwaukee Sunday morning.

The gunman allegedly shot one police officer who was helping a victim ten times. The officer survived the shooting. The suspected gunman was later confronted and killed by another officer outside the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in Oak Creek, near Milwaukee. Officials have indicated this is likely the work of a lone gunman.

Law enforcement sources tell CBS News the alleged gunman was a heavy-set, 40-year-old Caucasian male who lived in the area. A search is being conducted of his house.

Officials say he was armed with a 9-millimeter, semi-automatic pistol. The ATF has recovered the weapon and is running a trace. A second gun found at the scene belonged to one of the police officers who confronted the gunman outside the temple.

The suspect, described as heavily tattooed, wore a white t-shirt and black military BDU pants. He also had ammunition pouches.

While the local police have labeled this attack "domestic terrorism," federal sources urge caution with that because the investigation is in its very early stages.

The working theory is that he acted alone. Local police are saying they'll have more information Monday morning at a 10 a.m. news conference.

Paul Piaskoski of CBS affiliate WDJT-TV in Milwaukee reports the children inside the temple taking part in a birthday party in the basement of the facility were among the first to hear the gunfire. They allegedly first thought it was fireworks. When they realized it was gunfire, they were the ones who ran and warned the adults.

The police officer who was shot multiple times while helping a victim was transported to a nearby hospital, where he is in surgery. Greenfield Police Chief Brad Wentlandt said the officer, a 20-year veteran, is expected to survive.

The gunman then confronted a second officer, who returned fire, striking and killing the suspect.

Wentlandt said emergency medical personnel identified seven people dead - four inside the temple and three outside, including the suspect.

"Because of the heroic efforts of the officers," said Oak Creek Police Chief John Edwards, "they stopped this from being worse than it could have been."

Edwards referred to the shooting as "a domestic terror-type incident," and said that the FBI will be taking over the criminal investigation, assisted by local police and other agencies.

Seven dead in shooting at Sikh temple in Wisconsin

By Brendan O'Brien

OAK CREEK, Wisconsin | Sun Aug 5, 2012 9:56pm EDT

(Reuters) - A gunman killed six people and critically wounded three at a Sikh temple during Sunday services before police shot him dead in an attack that authorities are treating as an act of domestic terrorism.

Witnesses said the gunman opened fire when he entered the kitchen at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in suburban Milwaukee at about 10:30 a.m. CDT (1530 GMT) as women prepared a Sunday meal, sending worshippers fleeing to escape the barrage.

The suspect was a bald, white man, approximately 40 years old, said Thomas Ahern, a spokesman for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Authorities did not release his identity.

Four people were shot dead inside the sprawling temple. Three, including the gunman, were killed outside.

The gunman ambushed and shot a police officer who was responding to a 911 call and helping a shooting victim, Oak Creek Police Chief John Edwards said. A second officer shot and killed the gunman.

Edwards said he had no identification for the shooter nor information on what kind of weapon or weapons he had. The victims' identities and descriptions were not made public.

The wounded officer, a 20-year veteran, was taken to a hospital and is expected to survive. Hospital officials said two other victims, also in critical condition, were being treated.

Law enforcement personnel surrounded and searched a gray, two-storey house in the Cudahy neighborhood presumed to be the residence of the gunman on Sunday evening. Generators and floodlights were set up along the middle-class block.

A police source confirmed that a search warrant had been issued for the house, and a bomb squad was on the scene.

Temple member and U.S. Army Reserve combat medic Jagpal Singh, 29, said people who were at the service when the shooting broke out described to him a scene of chaos and confusion.

Worshippers scrambled to escape the gunfire, but some tragically ran in the wrong direction. Others survived the rampage by locking themselves in bathrooms, he said.

Singh said eyewitnesses described the shooter as a white man who was either shave-headed or bald.

"DOMESTIC TERRORIST"

Turban-wearing Sikhs are often mistaken for Muslims, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation is overseeing the probe into shootings, Edwards said.

"We're treating this as a domestic terrorist incident," he told reporters. Officials had no details about a possible motive.

Milwaukee's Froedtert Hospital said three male victims included one who had been shot in the abdomen, one in the extremities and face, and a third who was hit in the neck.

The Oak Creek shooting was the latest in a series of suburban U.S. gun rampages. Organizations fighting gun violence rate Wisconsin's gun safety laws from low to moderate. There are no limits on the number of firearms that can be purchased at one time, nor on the possession or transfer of assault weapons, according to the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

Sunday's attack came just over two weeks after a gunman opened fire at a theater in Aurora, Colorado, killing 12 people and wounding 58. In January 2011, then-congresswomen Gabrielle Giffords was the target of an assassination attempt in which six people were killed and 13 were wounded in Tucson, Arizona.

"The gunman is worse than the one at the theater a couple of weeks ago because he targeted an entire community," said Jagatjit Sidhu, who was among dozens of temple members and onlookers gathered near the sealed off temple.

Some witnesses at the scene had said there was more than one gunman, but Edwards said reports of multiple gunmen were common in incidents that involved only one shooter.

"We believe there was one but we can't be sure," he said. Officers finished sweeping the temple only after hours of searching, and Edwards said the investigation was just starting.

President Barack Obama said he was "deeply saddened" and pledged his administration's commitment to fully investigate the shooting.

Obama was briefed by counterterrorism adviser John Brennan and FBI director Bob Mueller and told the situation at the temple was "under control."

"The president said that he wanted to make sure that as we denounce this senseless act of violence we also underscore how much our country has been enriched by our Sikh community," the White House said in a statement.

SIKHS IN U.S.

The Indian embassy in Washington said it was in touch with the National Security Council about the shooting and an Indian diplomat had been sent to the Sikh temple in Wisconsin.

The Sikh faith is the fifth-largest in the world, with more than 30 million followers. It includes belief in one God and that the goal of life is to lead an exemplary existence.

The temple in Oak Creek, south of Milwaukee, was founded in October 1997 and has a congregation of 350 to 400 people. There are an estimated 500,000 or more Sikhs in the United States.

Since the attacks of September 11, 2001 by Islamist militants, Sikhs have sometimes been confused publicly with Muslims because of their turban headdress and beards.

Members of the Milwaukee Sikh community complained to police and a state representative last year about an upturn in robberies and vandalism at Sikh-owned gas stations and stores.

In September 2001, a Sikh gas station owner in Mesa, Arizona, was shot dead by a man who was said to be seeking revenge on Muslims for the hijacked plane attacks on the United States.

Phoenix police said they were in contact with local Sikh leaders and had increased patrol presence around the three temples in the city until further notice.

New York police said they were increasing security at Sikh temples as a precaution. There are no known threats against temples in the city, they said in a statement.

Sapreet Kaur, executive director of the Sikh Coalition civil rights organization, said Sikhs had been the target of several hate-crime shootings in the United States in recent years.

"The natural impulse of our community is to unfortunately assume the same in this case," he said in a statement.

96 Comments

96 Comments


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[-] 3 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Wonder if anyone would like to say "F--k the police" to the officer shot ten times while helping one of the wounded? Anybody in Oakland?

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

August 13, 2012

Morris Dees presented American Bar Association's highest honor For a legal career dedicated to seeking justice and equality for all, Morris Dees received the American Bar Association's highest honor, the ABA Medal.

Sikhi is a way of life, of which we are all a part SPLC legal intern Jay Singh explains what it means to be Sikh in our post 9/11 country today and shares what can be learned from the tragic shooting in Wisconsin.

Understanding the threat: SPLC provides resources on the Sikh attack, rising extremism SPLC resources were in demand following the attack on a Sikh temple in Wisconsin by a neo-Nazi skinhead – the latest in a series of terrorist attacks and plots by the radical right. The SPLC offered its expertise on the racist music scene and the rise of extremism, and documented the disgusting reaction of white supremacists.

Temple Attack: Authorities Chose to Look the Other Way Mark Potok, SPLC senior fellow, discusses in the New York Times how the Department of Homeland Security withdrew its own report warning of rising threats from various sectors of the extreme right after the report provoked a firestorm of unjustified criticism from the political right. You can also hear Mark discuss the explosion of hate groups with Democracy Now!

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/news/alleged-sikh-temple-shooter-former-member-of-skinhead-band

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Like you, I'm sure everybody wants to ban guns so that we can join the rest of the world in civil order and decency, and end the Domestic Terrorism stoked by RW Hate speech 24/7/365/every city!!!

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

FLAKESnews keeps the lies and misinformation coming.

If ethics and integrity were required, FLAKESnews and it's affiliates would be off the air.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/08/07/fox-news-analyst-sikh-temple-massacre-not-domestic-terrorism/

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

No news, Fox Lies!

What would Walter and Edward have to say about Fox Lies, a whole network devoted to propaganda for a former political party now devolved to a cult??

If we who could Vote, did Vote, we could put ALL this behind us.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

How Dare You call me Mainstream and Conservative!!!!

Get out the VOTE, people!!

http://www.prairie2.com/

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I've met the man who did this movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0871438/

Nicest guy you could meet.

Sikhs are about full on spirituality.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Sikhs - 0

RW Hate Speech - 7 more

Domestic Terrorists - 7 more

NRA - 4.3 million and counting

Gun Shop Gun Show Off Record Gun Business - Untold millions

This time yesterday, 6 Sikhs and 1 police officer were not VICTIMS to this INSANITY!

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

The National Memo

How many more tragedies will it take for our leaders to take gun violence seriously? With Texas A&M marking the third mass shooting in the last month, we can't afford another day of inaction.

Thirty-four Americans are murdered with guns every day -- that's more than 48,000 during the next president's term. How can President Obama and Governor Romney face that chilling fact without a plan? It's time to tell President Obama and Governor Romney that words of condolence are not enough. The time has come for meaningful action. Demand a Plan to End Gun Violence

The stakes are too high for our leaders to stay silent any longer. Stand with Mayors Against Illegal Guns and demand a plan to end gun violence.

http://content.dynamicmessenger.com/nationalmemo/?kO1rxv8bYnvfJCxXVvL.QrtvrTRnT9w6k

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

The One Thing You Should Know About Someone's Religion Before You Do Anything Drastic

http://front.moveon.org/the-one-thing-you-should-know-about-someones-religion-before-you-do-anything-drastic/

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[-] 0 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

Just curious, does anybody remember the movie Dr Horrible's Sing Along Blog?

[-] -2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Ban Guns, too many idiots!!

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

It'll never happen in the US.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

That's what they said about transcontinental railroads, democracy, electricity, vaccinations, public schools, on and on and on....

[-] 0 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

Yea, but your examples didn't have 85 million angry and armed voting citizens protesting the gun grabbers,

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

A Black Hawk or two would easily take care of their dumb-asses.

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

Nope, Blackhawks and other heavy artillery won’t work. It’s outrageous to think it would come to that, but for the sake of argument, if it did happen it would be guerilla warfare. I mean building to building fighting. Heavy artillery is a “kill’em all and let god sort it out” type weapons. Almost useless in urban warfare. The enemy will not come at you head on. I gonna assume you’ve never been in the military.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

I lived 30 years in LA.

Faced with another Civil War, I'd Vote for the Black Hawk and/or the bomb.

[-] 1 points by bestevidence (170) 2 years ago

Guns are not going to be banned in the USA. That's a political fact.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Bye Bye Neanderthals!!!

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Where's the outrage, people?

If this had been a white Sunday School full of little white kids, and the shooter was black, do you think we'd all be shrugging our shoulders and carrying on as usual??

[-] 0 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

“Where's the outrage, people?”

The problem is there’s so much violent crime. There are dozens of gruesome and sadistic murders, rapes and other heinous violent crimes reported every day on the news people have become numb to it. I don’t know if there is any more violent crime than there used to be, but these days almost every crime is reported in the news; and the news tends to sensationalize the more shocking crimes.

This continuous reporting of violence just overwhelms people. If folks reacted to every crime report it would make them crazy. Simple emotional overload. So, people kind of filter it out or ignore it for the most part. This doesn’t people insensitive, non-caring or hard people. It just means they can’t internalize every bad piece of news. It’s just the way thing work. .

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

I'm afraid this continuous tenderizing makes us numb to the Class War that this is MOST DEFINITELY a part of.

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

I agree.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Get angry folks!

And VOTE!!

[-] -1 points by vvv0809 (-3) 2 years ago

Get angry - and VOTE?!? Yeah right... That'll make a difference...

Americans Have 3 Choices: Bushbamney, Third-Party or Nobody:

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/05/18/americans_have_3_choices_bushbamney_third-party_or_nobody

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

5 Things You Can Expect from Washington if You Elect Republicans

Republicans have their own special contemptible methods of handling politics in Washington. August 6, 2012 |

http://www.alternet.org/election-2012/5-things-you-can-expect-washington-if-you-elect-republicans?paging=off

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Obama v. Romney: Two Radically Different Visions Of America's Future

We've got a stark choice: do we improve the systems that have made us rich and powerful in the past? Or do we tear them down in the name of "freedom," and hope for the best?

August 1, 2012 |

America is divided about its future. Should it keep and expand the system that brought past opportunity, prosperity and freedom? Or should it dismantle that system?

President Obama recently reminded us that private life, private enterprise and personal freedom depend on what the public provides.

"The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.... when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own.... So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country ... there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people ... I still believe in that idea. You're not on your own, we're in this together.... If you were successful, ... somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive."

http://www.alternet.org/visions/obama-v-romney-two-radically-different-visions-americas-future

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Americans!

Americans support the Affordable Care Act provisions: While Americans may dislike the disparaged term “Obamacare” — due wholly to the blatantly dishonest smear campaign waged by "Death Panel" Republicans like disgraced Sarah Palin — they do support its major provisions and are surely to resist any effort by Republicans to take away their welcomed benefits. A recent Reuters/Ipsos poll found that while 56 percent of Americans oppose the law as a whole, 61 percent of respondents favored allowing young adults to stay on their parents’ insurance plans until age 26, 72 percent wish to maintain the requirement that companies with more than 50 workers provide health insurance for their employees, and 82 percent of respondents favored banning insurance companies from denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions. As more benefits roll out in 2014, it will be increasingly futile for Republicans to discount its obvious advantages.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

It was done by a white power, gun nutter, and he killed 99.9% brown people.

Other white power supporting gun nutters, have no problem with this.

if you wanted to help, you would quit supporting the NRA and gun manufacturers that also support them.

But you won't.

Now, continue your insane rant for more gun nuttery.

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

Actually, I have to stop now. My four year old granddaughter is spending the night with us and I promised to read her a story before bed, So I’ll let your hate rants go for now. God bless and good night.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Happy trails to you....................:)

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

This act of hate, should not be ignored.

A former actual army psy-ops, white power nutter, with ties to stormfront.

Now they're looking for his buddy, who taped it on a phone.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/shooter-wade-page-was-army-vet-white-supremacist-856cn28-165123946.html

The Southern Poverty Law Center had been following him for decades.

Why not the FBI?

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

And why do we not see outrage?? Where is the outrage??

What do you think would happen if it was one or two "New Black Panthers" who shot up a Southern Baptist Sunday School of little white kids?? Just once, not even dozens of times??

"They" would ban Rap Music forever, impeach Obama, and park tanks at every Popeyes, just to start!

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

The wonks at FLAKESnews have managed to get this one wrong too.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/08/06/fox-news-anchor-asks-about-anti-semitic-acts-against-sikhs/

The thing here, is that there are clear ties to groups dedicated to bigotry.

Did you note the name of his band?

End Apathy? I wonder where I've heard that complaint before?

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

You follow that shit and you end up looking up your own ass.

Not clever, just monkeys on keyboards, spaghetti thrown on walls. They have the budget.

Bigotry, like fraud, is not widely considered bad. Much to our surprise... and outrage.

We have to get out the VOTE!!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Actually, bigotry is rather popular, and not simply relegated to those we normally associate with bigots.

Money makes it so too.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/06/winchester-housing-discrimination-minorities_n_1747777.html

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Yes, it's sad. Because if the Cons get their way, and Shock Doctrine is implemented further, and the gap between rich and poor widens, there will be corresponding increased fear and segregation.

We have to deny the KingCon way!

Get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

In the race for biggest bigot, don't forget our old friend Pat Robertson.

http://www.politicususa.com/white-supremacist-shoot-sikhs-wisconsin-atheists.html

It would appear the conse(R)vative mind is getting dumber still.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Tax the Fuck out of them!!

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

The ones that go on TV and beg for money, while spreading hate?

Tax 'em twice. They owe us.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

As Norman Goldman says, organized religion is a scam! I agree.

But let's concentrate on getting out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I think you will find this thread interesting then.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/101-rules-for-the-confused-voter/

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago
[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Gunman in Sikh temple shooting identified as ex-Army soldier Wade Michael Page [Domestic Terrorist!]

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/06/authorities-search-for-motive-in-deadly-shooting-at-wisconsin-sikh-temple/#ixzz22lxMLoU6

[-] 2 points by throaway (57) 2 years ago

Your point?

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Information.

Time to ban guns and RW hate speech!!

If this had been one incident of a Black shooter at a White Sunday School, RW bigots and crazies would impeach Obama, ban Rap music and police fried chicken!!

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

Don't be giving them ideas now.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

No shit!!

Except any evil thing we could possibly think of, ALEC, Heritage, Cato, one and/or all of their RW think tanks has already tested it.

We have to: Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

http://www.ksla.com/story/19200967/mass-shootings-prompt-surge-in-firearms-sales-ccw-permits

Mass shootings prompt surge in firearms sales, CCW permits Updated: Aug 05, 2012 5:45 PM PDT The recent shooting rampage at a Colorado movie theater has led to a surge in gun and ammunition sales. And in the ArkLaTex, more people are taking classes for a concealed weapons permit.More >> Gun owners flock to C.C.W. classes Updated: Aug 05, 2012 5:38 PM PDT Gun sales are up nationally, along with training classes for gun owners looking to receive a permit to carry a concealed weapon. More >> ETX man pleads guilty in connection with the death of adopted son Updated: Aug 05, 2012 5:03 PM PDT An East Texas man has plead guilty in connection with the death of his adopted son.More >> Police: 7 dead, including suspect, at Sikh temple Updated: Aug 05, 2012 12:09 PM PDT A gunman opened fire inside a Sikh Temple during a worship service Sunday, killing at least four people and injuring many others, according to multiple reports.More >>

SHREVEPORT-BOSSIER CITY, LA (KSLA) -

The recent shooting rampage at a Colorado movie theater has led to a surge in gun and ammunition sales. And in the ArkLaTex, more people are taking classes for a concealed weapons permit.

KSLA New 12's Sasha Jones stopped by a concealed weapons training session Sunday and found the class filled to capacity with gun owners. Packed classes have been the trend for gun owners seeking to gain permits ever since the mass shooting an Aurora, Colorado movie theater on July 20.

Some class participants told KSLA News 12 that carrying a concealed weapon will make them fee safer, a sentiment that class instructors say they are seeing more frequently.

"After the Colorado shooting, our CCW classes did pick up remarkably. I believe it's just an underlying fear that's causing it," one ArkLaTex gun owner says.

A concealed weapons permit allows a gun owner to carry a handgun without it being in plain view.

Following an historic patter after a mass shooting, gun sales are up across the country.

In the wake of the movie theater massacre in Aurora, Colorado. That same spike in gun sales was seen after the shooting rampage at Columbine High School in Colorado back in 1999. and gun sales spiked again after the mass shooting in Tucson, Arizona early last year that killed six people and badly wounded then-congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords.

According to a recent report by the Christian Science Monitor, self-protection is part of the reason. But a bigger factor, say gun dealers, is fear of more gun control legislation that would limit their right to own firearms and ammunition.

Copyright 2012 KSLA. All rights reserved.

[-] -3 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

I went out and bought a Virginian Dragoon 44 mag last week. You can never have enough protection when it comes to walking the streets in America. Too many crazy people out there.

We need to do psych evals in grade school and then again at the age of 26 to find just who these crazies are.

[-] 2 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

I assume your joking. The Dragoon is a very poor choice for self defense. It’s basically a revolver intended to play with at the gun range. It’s not intended as a self defense weapon.

To start with its single action. Why would want a gun you have to cock the hammer for every round. Most likely anyone shooting at you will be using a semi-auto pistol and will get off seven or eight rounds by the time you get your gun hammer cocked.

Also, a .44 is too much gun. Hard to control and hard recoil. You’ll have to re-acquire your target after every round fired. Also, a .44 shoots through walls and reaches out a couple of blocks. Remember, you want to stop the bad guy, not hit four other people down the street. Not to mention the fact it’s just six rounds.

Your best bet for self defense is a 9mm with hollow-point defense ammo. Use the cheaper target ammo at the rand and load the self defense ammo for conceal carry. Personally I recommend Glock. Approximately 80% of all US law enforcement carry Glocks. Personally I like Beretta, but that’s just me.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Or cut copper jacket rounds.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Yes, I was only joking - although I just bough it and got it for a really good price.

My Glock 36 45 ACP with hollow point or ruger lcr 38 spcl, 125 gr hollow point serves me well when I am out and about.

I like either because they are easy to conceal.

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

Good for you. My wife carry’s a LCR. I just think the laser is a little cheesy, but I don’t like lasers anyway so it’s a personal thing.

I carried .45’s for over thirty years because I wanted the stopping power. Then I noticed that the bad guys seem to come in groups these days. So I changed over to 9MM. Ammo has improved so much over the years that 9MM is as good as a .45 round was twenty years ago. I just feel better with seventeen rounds (or more) available. However I still like my .45’s. It’s just hard to beat an old Colt.

[-] 2 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

Depending on who’s numbers you believe, there are between 220 and 340 million privately owned guns in America today. There are an estimated 85 million gun owners in the US. Earlier this year two major gun manufactures (S&W and Ruger) had a million order backlog and suspended new orders to catch up. The best selling gun right now is small, almost pocket size 9MM pistol; followed by the AR-15 and similar assault rifles.

Last year, 2011, was a banner year for gun sales and 2012 is looking to outpace it. Guns are selling like hot cakes. Also, gun laws are trending toward more gun rights rather than more gun restrictions. Almost every State has some type of conceal carry license and some have legal open carry. Good or bad, Americans love their guns.

I’m a gun enthusiast (read gun nut), and this worries even me. I’m afraid there are millions of people walking around armed who have virtually no training on when or how to properly use a weapon. I mean people who maybe shot fifty or sixty rounds and never give any serious thought what they would do in a self defense situation. Then there’s the random cowboy walking around hoping someone will mess with them so he can pull a weapon.

The lack of required training to own a gun is way too lax. Rather than a one day class it should be month long class involving defensive shooting strategies, what happens after you shoot, how to properly carry a weapon and so on. I know I’d feel better knowing people were trained.

Gun owners are paranoid about the “gun grabbers” coming to confiscate their weapons. That’s partly why every time a mass shooting occurs they rush out and buy more guns. Just in case the feds outlaw some guns they will be grandfathered in with their current guns.

Personally I’m not worried about the feds confiscating guns. Too many guns and too many gun owners. Just couldn’t be done. However, I am worried the gun grabbers will nickel and dime us. They’ll try to outlaw semi-auto rifles (AR’s. AK’s and the like), then reduce magazine capacity, outlaw some types and caliber of ammo (.45, .50 and 10MM caliber and hollow-point ammo). Then require unnecessary features such as manual safeties, staging triggers, magazine removal disconnects, etc…

So, as I said before, for good or bad Americans love their guns. It doesn’t much matter if you or I like it or not. Probably not going to change anytime soon. Think about it, if everyone else has a gun, would you want to be the only one without the ability to defend yourself?

[-] 1 points by marvelpym (-184) 2 years ago

Penn and Teller once proposed making owning a gun mandatory for all women. They don't have to carry one, just own one. Their argument was, think what would happen to rape statistics if every man knew that every women owned a gun.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

We already do that with nuclear weapons.

It's called MAD.

Mutually

Assured

Destruction.

It's really not the sanest policy.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

I don't know of any incidents where a gun owner took it upon himself to stop a perp and as a result others were injured. However, there may be instances out there where that did happen.

I don't disagree with you about training - although all the training in the world cannot prepare a person for the unexpected - it just allows one to think a little more clearly before they react.

As long as there are crazies out there it's going to be impossible to stop a person from being violent. It can happen in a subway car, on a commuter bus or even while a person is walking down the street.

All it takes is a person with a knife, committed to the violent act of killing, and within an instant several people could be stabbed dead.

A gun is a cowardly way of killing someone but to the person using it, I guess they look at it as a more efficient means of killing.

[-] 2 points by jbgramps (159) 2 years ago

Yep, I agree. All the training in the world will not guarantee a good outcome. However, even a little knowledge and training can drastically change the odds to your favor. Here’s a few things to consider.

Most people are terrible shots. I mean they almost can’t hit the side of a barn. People just don’t practice enough to be know how good or bad they really are.

Even if you’re an excellent shot at the gun range, when an incident occurs it will most likely be a moment of surprise and confusion; your adrenalin will be pumping. Maybe stumbling backward while trying to pull your weapon and get out of the line of fire. It’s hard to shoot straight under stress. I think stress shooting should be mandatory to get a conceal license.

Some decisions should be made before you have to pull a weapon. For instance. I’ve decided I will not shoot someone over a property crime. I can legally shoot someone stealing my car, but I won’t do it. I’m insured and the legal hassle isn’t worth it. I’ve decided the only time I will draw my weapon is if my life, or someone else’s life, and safety is truly in danger. I wouldn’t shoot some drunk that just wants to fight. I might pepper spray him or just walk away. I’ll walk away from any confrontation I can. Better a bruised ego than a 10K legal bill.

These are just a couple of thoughts about gun use. I didn’t cover how to deal with the police after a shooting, how to move properly, how to choose the best weapon and holster for you and so on. There’s enough info to easily cover a month long class. And as I said on a previous post I think a month long gun class should be mandatory for a conceal carry permit. Frankly, most people would be better off just carrying pepper spray.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

I agree with your decision not to take someone out because of property - not worth the hassel - now with life at risk, different story.

I remember when I was woking in the projects a gal came over towards me and appeared to be on drugs. She wanted money and I refused - end result she swiped at my face with a knife in her hand.

I could have taken her down but I had options - nothing behind me so I had room to move back out of the way. Meantime maintenance personnel saw what was going on and called out - she backed up and walked away.

You never know - called police and they arrested her after she taunted them with the knife - she's lucky she didn't get shot - they knew how to handle the situation -

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Have you volunteered for one lately?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I think he is dodging the testers. {:-]) Real or imagined.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

after my friend was sexually assaulted

the council told her she was playing the victim

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Hmmm, perhaps council should go first.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

they are part of the same team that would downplay employer complaints

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Not sure I understand.

What kind of employer complaints would they downplay?

Or are you talking about complaints against the employer?

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

sorry

i'm dropping it

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Ok?

[-] -1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Had one several years ago and it really impressed my employer because he hied me.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

They hire psychopaths on Wallstreet all the time.......:(

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Haven't had anybody gunned down there lately have we?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

They're much more efficient at death than than.

They pay someone else to do it.

Sometimes, entire military forces.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I fired my employer

he would intentional make work difficult

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Thank god. It be like that sometimes........:(

I hope you hired a new one.

I always found payroll checks worked better when they were signed........:)

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I talked to one fellow that seemed workable

but he may have felt too young to deal with me

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Never talk astropsychics with a potential employer. It intimidates them, when they don't understand a word.....I've read that it makes them want to buy a gun or two.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

LOL shooz - damn it any how I just sprayed my keyboard with beer.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You can get a cheap beer proof one here.

http://www.microcenter.com/

At least you didn't really waste the beer, I did.........:)

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You didn't drop it did you? {:-(

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

No silly. I quit years ago. I made you drop yours......LOL

I'll take the fall for this one.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Your a better man than I shooz a better man than I - PM me and I'LL give you the address to ship the replacement to. {:-])

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Awwww no.

I'm taken the fall for the beer..

You the one that sprayed it on the keyboard................:)

Just think, it could have been your monitor.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Easier to clean. {:-])

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

LOL Matt LOL - did you give him the reasoning that he was contributing to a hostile work environment?

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

not in those words

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Why don't you tell us all how many bad guys domestic citizen weaponry has bagged compared to innocent deaths?!

[-] -1 points by WeWillOvercome (3) 2 years ago

Don't worry. In Obamas second term gun ownership will be severely restricted.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

If only.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

I hope you're right! Will we join the rest of the world with public healthcare, too.

[-] -1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

I totally agree, a few idiots, and domestic terrorists, ruin things for everyone. But obviously, America can't handle it's guns.

Or is it the RW hate speech?

Neither of them do us a lick of good. Ban them BOTH!!

Get out the Vote for the sake of our great country!!

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