Forum Post: Maybe this will get the support of mainstream media
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 19, 2011, 4:39 a.m. EST by JohnWatson
(250)
from Nürnberg, BY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
They say we don't know how the system works. I say they don't know how systems in general work.
In science old theories get replaced by a new theory if the new theory explains the things of the old theories (and even more) better than the old theories. But it can take a long time before the new theory becomes mainstream because they always face the problem of dogmatism in the establishment (think of Gallileo).
This new theory I found, by doing some research in the web, is called 'debitism' and the principles and consequences are very easy to understand if you are not blinded by the things which you consider to be facts. But the fact is, facts exist only if you can prove them by logically deducing them from given facts. And the most things you consider as facts are only beliefs deducted from beliefs.
So here is an introduction in the theory of debitism for preschool kids (things in brackets to make it easyer for the experts to understand):
Money (and such things as expected money or how you may call this) is created if someone (banks or so) gives a credit (or something equivalent) to someone else. And if someone pays back his credit the money gets destroyed. So the amount of money is always equal to the amount of debt, which is also true if you take interest rates (and such things) into account. Therefore money is just the proof of the promise of someone to pay back his debt. And the rest of the economy is just about how getting this piece of proof to pay your own debt plus the interest rate.
The problem which we face today is that someone must first take a new credit (which we can't because everybody says we have too much debts) before we can pay back our debts plus the interest rates. And the 1% can't give us the money either because their money is our promise to pay our debts and interest rates (so we need to bail them out which is only some sort of new credit). So we first will have to pay our interest rates before they can give us the money to do this. You see how messed up the system is?
So if we really want our system to keep running we are forced to make higher debts and not lower them. But even then there will be a point where the system collapses. And as history shows people don't say it was the systems fault. They say it was the fault of aliens which we have to kill and start building up the system again. From time to time they changed the colour but not the structure. And the history got repeated many times.
And now a little bit theory of systems in general:
A system is called stable if every limited input leads to a limited output.
Real existing systems always tend to get into a stable state. Think of a pressure tank: if the pressure gets too high the tank explodes and the system is stable again.
So, if you don't want a collapse as the solution for the problems we face you should better educate yourself and others about debitism and start a public discussion about a stable system where everyone can live by his believes and where we all can freely care for our needs.
And stop insulting the movement beeing a bunch of lazy ignorant anarchists. The only lazy ignorant anarchists I see is the man behind the 1% and his supporters who profit from keeping people blind and uneducated and for whom a human life means nothing.
And I would be glad if one of the economy experts can proof the theory of debitism to be wrong. But before you can do this you will have to study this theory and understand it because that is the way how real science works.
And don't believe anything I said. Maybe I am just the man behind the one percent or one of his supporters who tries to disturb the public awakening.
Learn to think and educate yourself. Internet is not just for commerce and porn.
Feel free to use this text as you like as long as you keep it together. Maybe someone will print this on toilet paper for the 1%?
And to anonymous: if you want to hack the system distribute this.
Welcome in the next millenium.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-to-build-a-stable-system/
PS: If you think I'm wrong, please tell me where the error is so I can correct it. If you think I'm right, please upgrade the post so it gets into the top ten and can easily be found by others.
interesting.
I've always been under the impression that money was only a medium of trade, in exchange for labor. As such it has no value of itself, beyond the material and labor to produce this medium that is exchanged for labor.
Since it has no value of it's own, beyond the material and labor required to produce it, it is in a very real sense, nothing more than one more illusion, one that is universally [or nearly so] shared.
Debt, I think, is simply a way of capturing labor. When it is used to trade fairly on the fruit of future endeavor - labor - it can be a benefit to the laborer and to the society in which [s]he labors.
When it is used to capture labor, and hold it in thrall to the debt, this is no more than slavery, a shackle to be broken.
One step all of us can take in this transformation is to identify what beliefs we hold that do not actually serve us, but have been inherited from parents and schools. We often live according to these beliefs, but never question them. Here are some beliefs that exist in our culture that may or may not continue to serve us: educated people are superior and more deserving than uneducated people; blue collar workers are not as valuable to the economy as white collar workers. We have the best educational system in the world and it is affordable to all. New is better than used. Net worth applies only to stuff (money). Anyone can succeed with hard work. Form is equal to substance (if you look rich, it's as good as being rich). We could all probably add to this list. Once we start paying attention to what drives some of our behavior, we will be able to make adjustments to our belief system.
I'm glad someone came out with this idea. I believe to keep the old systems in place is easy, but not a solution. There is something wrong with the very foundation of our monetary system, and I dare the world to be able to start over.
[Deleted]
...Thanks? I understand where you're coming from (I hope so, at least) and I think you mean that we all played our part in the corruption we are fighting. I don't fear you, nor do I want to label myself anything unless I am trying to explain my perspective to someone who needs to understand it through the filter of used human terminology.
[Deleted]
You have a castle? For real?
You're right we the people need to educate ourselves. You have a lot to say and I like that you've done you're search, i am actually trying that out as well. I've come across some good stuff on the internet, including this site. i like the way you play devils advocate. It is allowing your audience to actually think and form opinions. Right on.
Congratulations! You are the first one here making a constructive comment.
I'm working on a plan how to best transform the system without turning violent. And if you help me finding people with same thoughts who like to join the discussion, you would be very helpful.
Also it would be helpful if you can answer the posts of some trolls which might appear so I can concentrate on the plan. But keep in mind always beeing kind and dismantling them by arguing. We are the nice guys and they are only system slaves which we want to deprogram so they can start thinking by themself.
And instead of getting insulting better leave them unanswered. We will take care on them when the time will come.
absolutely, we have to come together with our ideas in order to reform and educate the people. I'll try and keep the trolls out and shut them down with what i know, that way we can work together. I want to work towards "de-programming" those slaves as well. We are not winning this with insults when their is construction and reformation to be made, keep on with your strong ideas!
[Deleted]
your an idiot. so if there's zero debt than there's zero money? ever take ECON 101? of course not. idiot.
'so if there's zero debt than there's zero money?'
I see you got the point.
Ever took a look on the theory of debitism? I know you omniscient experts always have a little problem with revolutionary new viewpoints on your daily things.
But maybe you can explain better where the money originates and where it ends?
Bump.
Evolution001 wrote: http://occupywallst.org/forum/life-beyond-capitalism/#comment-431299
You are basically correct but have touched on only a small part of the system. Since money especially fiat money (as in US) is essentially an empty promise it is by definition a pyramid scheme. Capitalism is basically a giant pyramid scheme because it is based on the faith of the 99% participants believing not just on the value of its money but its whole hierarchy / authority / structure and institutions. Once the masses wake up from their sheepish slumber on their way to butcher shop and decide they don't need masters and can run their own lives (by principles of direct democracy) based on a viable economic system with sustainable economic principles (principally of common ownership i.e., no commodities / no money) the whole pyramid collapses.
If you say 'fiat money' I think you mean good money gets created out of thin air. But this is not true!
Real money must always be backed by good securities which can be distrained if the debitor doesn't pay back the credit and the interest rates. Else the creditor has the risk of going bankrupt if someone else presents the money and wants it beeing redeemed.
In our days only commercial banks can redeem money at the national central banks. But central banks also need good securities from the commercial banks if they don't want to get bankrupt. And the lender of last resort is always the state, because the state has the power of taxation and therefore has the access to the private property of the whole population as a good security. This and the interest rates are the reason why the total indebtedness must rise if you don't want the money to vanish from the economic circuit.
As in the communist countries there was no private property but only possesions the money wasn't backed by securities and therefore was no real money but only a coupon, created out of thin air, for retrieving goods. But as the consequence these coupons where only worth thin air and couldn't get redeemed because there was no possibility to distrain someone if he wasn't able or willing to redeem your debt claim.
For a further understanding of the theory of debitism I recommend the books 'Eigentumsökonomik' and 'Eigentum, Zins und Geld' by Gunnar Heinsohn and Otto Steiger. For the latter one they plan an english version under the title 'Property, Interest and Money: Foundations of Economic Theory'. If someone finds other good books or links about this new viewpoint of economy please post it here.
http://www.economypoint.org/d/debitism.html
http://www.miprox.de
http://occupywallst.org/forum/zeitgeist-founder-peter-joseph-to-make-presentatio/#comment-170128
Here is a comment whis was placed somwhere else in the forum:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/all-of-you-are-missing-the-point/#comment-164269
You said only one thing worth reading: "Learn to think and educate yourself."
The rest of your post is total and I mean TOTAL garbled GARBAGE and misinformation.
. The problem is that the ruling class is way ahead of you in this respect: they have been systematically dumbing down the American taxpayers and labor force for over 70 years with free TV and cheap pizza. until the only educated people left in America are those rare few who take the time and the trouble to re-educate themselves and DE-program themselves of all the propaganda they've been spoon-fed all their lives. The number of educated enlightened people in America is getting smaller and smaller every year. That is your REAL problem and why expecting any social change on a national level is a waste of time. And why the only practical solution is the creation of small self-sufficient communities made up of the few enlightened people still left in the world who are intelligent enough to organize themselves.
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And this was my answer:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/all-of-you-are-missing-the-point/#comment-169773
I don't know if you realized, that people all over the world are starting to wake up from their brainwashed state and wonder how it came to the situation we are facing now. In the past, when the economic system was facing a collapse, the strategy was making a monetary reform or accusing someone and starting a war.
But in our times, where people all over the world, are connected, it is very difficult to blame it on the aliens. And the people know that a monetary reform also wouldn't really change a thing and that the root cause must lie somewhere in economy.
But they also know that socalism also is not what they want because they want to keep their freedom to choose what to do and what to think and what to say.
So they occupy the places and discuss how we can avoid the expected global crash and reinstall some sort of a real democracy and start realizing that even the experts don't have a clue how to get along with this.
So first the masses need to be De-programmed and RE-educated. But if you leave the reeducation to some charismatic person who would love to sell you his kind of BS we will only get another kind of hidden slavery. So the best thing would be leaving the reeducation of every person on herself so we can create a new global democracy which is really by 100% of the people for the people.
And where did I post misinformation?
I only introduced to the new theory of debitism which i think is a better and easier explanation for economy than tradional theories which are based on the exchange of goods. And I told what the implication of this theory is. And as this is a real existing theory, which most of the people on the world don't know about, this is information. MISinformation is what you get in the mainstream media.
And if you expect the people to start thinking and educating themself they first need information and not misinformation.
And I kindly ask you to discuss my post there where I posted it so we can keep the redundancy low. Because redundancy is not helpful in a conversation which shall lead to a point. Redundancy only leads to never ending discussions, as you can see in politics and mainstram media, which is mainly used to avoid getting to the point.
And the rest of your answer shows only a symptom of our economy and it is discussed over and over again here in the forum and it is just a kind of blaming it to the aliens and therefore is redundant.
So stop trying to hide the piece of truth in the masses of BS and join the discussion where it is supposed to be. Namely here:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/maybe-this-will-get-the-support-of-mainstream-medi/