Forum Post: Let's Think This Through Very Carefully
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 6, 2011, 7:12 p.m. EST by bmfliberty
(16)
from New York, NY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I agree that the desire to object to corporate greed, financial exploitation, and fiscal recklessness is strong, and provides worthy reason for the existence of our group.
But let's evaluate and determine our goals -- our constitution.
Currently, the populous generally rejects the idea that Wall Street is bad, because in it inheres the idea that capitalism is bad. Before proceeding, it is imperative that we acknowledge the value of an advanced financial system. The responsible use of finance allows society to pool resources and make tremendous advances. It has provided us with the quality of life we all experience today, which while in our minds may appear bleak, pails in comparison to the lives of most other human beings around the world.
The problem we face as a nation stems from finance, and opposing Wall Street is a natural reaction. However, upon closer examination, the problem can be attributed to the following: extreme exploitation of the American political system for corporate, and ultimately personal, gains. Fundamentally, there is a lack of moral obligation in the role our financial system plays in our society.
Why don't we try to refocus the aim of this movement to promote change in how our government operates? The source of the issue doesn't rest here; instead, what we see on Wall Street is the result of what our government allows.
If this organization really wants to gain some steam, stop targeting the individuals, and start targeting that which enables them.
Bottom Line:
Either ban corporate donations to campaigns or socialize the voting and election processes!! Demand a level playing field for our electoral process! We need to ensure that the people running our country are allowed to do so because WE want them to, not because corporations and greed operating behind the scenes made it happen.
Stand together for freedom, liberty, and social responsibility!
BMF
Very good post. I wish you could put this before the GA on Wall Street, though...
The number one goal should be a government that isn't bought, but represents the people. All else can be accomplished if we are merely represented in our government.
Thank you -- I'm a native New Yorker, but studying Philosophy and Applied Economics and Management up in Ithaca at Cornell. Otherwise I'd be there!
I respect the movement's purpose, but want the real issues to come to the forefront so objectives may be identified and goals achieved.
We need you on the ground! I can't stress this enough. We can't have all of the serious thinkers contributing on the forums alone... I know you have your responsibilities, but we all do. Make some time to come down, please - We need you.
Maybe I'll be able to come down to the protest on the 14th!
I'll be in the city then. How is it down there -- is there any order or leadership or anything? Or is it every man for himself?
You're in for a treat, I promise you. Come for the general assembly, since that is where you can make yourself heard (and propose specific actions or policies to the group). There are no leaders, but much solidarity and trust. It's a beautiful thing... I've been away from it for a little over a week and I'm already getting depressed. Going back within 10 days, I hope.
Just want to add:
Our electoral system works in almost an identical fashion to how wealthy, underqualified kids get into good colleges:
Their family donates a building to the university in exchange for a spot in the incoming freshman class.
Companies and wealthy individuals donate to campaigns in exchange for political favors that can be granted when the politician reaches congress.
The bottom line is that favors and politics cannot coexist. The role of government is to do the best job possible of objectively representing the interests of our nation's people.
capitalism does not exist. corporate oligarchy is bad. these brain storming ideas belong on a brain storming thread with the other people who had a toke and imagined that they gained sudden clarity and insight.
Gawdoftruth, Capitalism does not exist? Of course it does, look up the definition. And yes, corporate oligarchy is detrimental to the progress of any society. But there is no sudden clarity or insight here that I'm suggesting, and it certainly wasn't prefaced with a toke. Your reaction and dismissal of the premises stated above suggest either a strict adherence to some religion or other set of non-flexible philosophical principles, or a lack of quality (non-public) education. You are not alone -- but you need to start by exibiting some mental flexibility -- simply stating "capitalism does not exist" and "corporate oligarchy is bad" will never lead to progress, and only delay any resolve.
nope, it does not. the definition? i have looked it up. I studied political science. nope. capitalism does not exist. coporate oligarchy does exist. excuse me but i'm the one whos got an education here, and you guys are the ones who lack it. the facts of the matter stand. corporate oligarchy is the system we have. there has never been a capitalist system. never. not ever in the history of this planet. I'm not inflexible, i'm right, and i know what i am talking about, from years of actually studying.
Never like dropping the IVY-bomb, or the "I'm better than you" approach...
But I go to Cornell, and clearly do not lack an education. I also went to an Ivy League Preparatory School in Riverdale (located in the Bronx, NY).
Capitalism does exist -- the government does not own our nation's enterprises -- the people do.
Sorry, but you're ignorant and probably holding back the progression of this movement.
no, capitalism does not exist. corporate oligarchy does exist,. you saying it exists only proves your so called education wasn't. Being programmed at school is not the same as getting education. Sorry, but your the one whos ignorant and i'm the one whos right. and most people involved in the movement are getting the idea pretty quick, because its true and its actually self evident if yo ustop and think about it. Capitalism has never existed, maybe you should have paid more attention in school to the iron rule of oligarchies. What did you study? political science? business? lol.
I won't even attempt to address the errors in your statement, since they range from syntax (grammar/sentence structure related) to context.
Nothing in this world is self-evident. Read a little John Locke or any of the other empiricists -- they might help you understand that.
to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?
you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.
Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.
o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.
once again. there has never been a socialist or capitalist economy. in all instances such nations were oligarchies. using a mask and a con scam and telling their dupes and pwns that they were something other than oligarchy. the big hump to get over is that the USA oligarchy and the Soviet oligarchy are in on this lie against the rest of us TOGETHER. Neither of them was ever anything other than an oligarchy. both claimed some other system in order to have US fight over the ideals of THAT system while they secretly shafted us all playing a completely different game.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
Are you really religious? I think you have the potential to actually be very informed -- since you have a lot of ideas and clearly the desire to express them. I'm not trying to be offensive at all...I know our initial exchange got slightly hostile, but I'm totally serious in asking you. Read John Locke's "An Essay Concerning Human Understanding".
I think you have a number of ideas confused here -- and some of them if sorted out would be very worthwhile. I only ask if you're religious because there are a number of leaps in your thought that should stand out as inconsequential to you.
I cite:
"You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws."
as an example...
Not sure what you mean by imaginal, but expecting anything to be subject to moral and ethical laws is impossible in a world where people aren't bound to the same set of them (i.e. in a world where people can practice their own moral/ethical codes, which are commonly known as religions)
science now answers this with psychology, sociology, systems and game theory, which produce with formal conversational logic an objective truth about ethics. "religions" are free to exist as mere ideologies but have nothing to do with ethics or thus law.
if you want to use the harsh truth against me my religion is formal conversational logic. happy?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/constitutional-amendment-concerning-citizens-unite/
This post addresses your concerns and how they can be met.
I don't really think it does, to be honest -- I'm not so much interested in taking away the rights of corporations per se....after all, groups of individuals SHOULD possess the same rights as individuals, otherwise there's a sort of inconsistency....
Instead, I'm interested in bringing to light the issue of how broken our electoral system is. Right now, it's akin to a family donating a building to a university to get their child a spot in the freshman class. Our government simply cannot work that way -- it inherently alienates the 99%
Your words: "Either ban corporate donations to campaigns or socialize the voting and election processes!!"
Corporate donations were okayed by the Supreme Court saying that the First Amendment applied to corporations as well. So how do we ban corporate donations without making such an amendment like the one I linked to?
The first amendment says nothing about being corporations or individuals being able to donate to political campaigns.
The solution here is simple: ban or limit/restrict corporate campaign donations.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22scotus.html
From the first paragraph of the above New York Times article on the issue:
Overruling two important precedents about the First Amendment rights of corporations, a bitterly divided Supreme Court on Thursday ruled that the government may not ban political spending by corporations in candidate elections.
to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?
you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.
Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.
o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.
once again. there has never been a socialist or capitalist economy. in all instances such nations were oligarchies. using a mask and a con scam and telling their dupes and pwns that they were something other than oligarchy. the big hump to get over is that the USA oligarchy and the Soviet oligarchy are in on this lie against the rest of us TOGETHER. Neither of them was ever anything other than an oligarchy. both claimed some other system in order to have US fight over the ideals of THAT system while they secretly shafted us all playing a completely different game.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/