Forum Post: Keep Politics Out Of The Occupy Movement
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 13, 2011, 6:30 a.m. EST by tulcak
(698)
from Prague, Prague
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Here's the bottom line. Corporations control our government our economy and our media. Why do folks insist that there is a political solution to what ails us? Do you really think that the corporations will allow any change? Of course they won't. And discussing political agendas, strategies and "getting out the vote", discussing which bills to support (like Glass-Steagall) is absurd to the extreme. It doesn't matter what political change we try to make happen - it won't. we've seen that. the 99% have seen that. That is WHY the occupy movement struck a chord an is growing. People are making change on the streets when they know that change will not ever happen in the halls of congress or anywhere else as long as the corporations own us. The present system must collapse and be replaced. That is called a revolution and it has begun and it will be televised.
If that's your agenda then i don't think you'll be successful. You're probably going to have more people going to just one NFL game today then there are in all the encampments across the country. Meaning there are contented people out there with disposable income. There are probably 5 times the number of people employed as unemployed and under employed put together. You honestly believe you can convince them to give up a system that seems to be working for them and try something that's never been successfully done?
Your real activists are few in number. Sad thing is, if you had the support, you could get idealistic people to enter politics, elect them and actually make a difference. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see the crushing poverty of 1917 Russia or even that of America of in the Great Depression to get you the support you need for revolution.
you're joking right? "a few activists" "elect"? what alternate parallel universe do you live in? the occupy movement is nationwide and worldwide. it has motivated people on the deepest level. this is the beginning of the revolution. wow, you are really clueless, aren't you?
I certainly could be clueless. I see a few hundred people camping out in a city of millions, they can round up a couple of thousand protestors on a good day. The rank and file from the union groups that join aren't going to go for revolution. I just think you'll need a lot of people suffering before you'll get an uprising.
It doesn't matter how many cities the movement is in, in each location it's the same, they are a very small minority. The message is confusing, you want revolution, others talk about just taxing the rich more, some talk about changing the system through the existing process.
I look at last summer's debt ceiling mess. I believe we need more taxes, but I saw about 25 representatives from the tea party dig in and change that entire debate. I'm not saying they were right, just that it didn't take that many to make a difference. You have a better chance making changes through the system then by overthrowing it. It's your time though, who knows?
I'm not even saying I disagree with your goal, to tear it all down and make something better. I just don't see it as happening without real discontent felt by more then just 15 or 20% of the population.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Ffeature%3Dplayer_embedded%26v%3DfxbowRmzetY&h=oAQHJxvDtAQFZp15x5U8qU6aPC6jCDyI-tuEVBIkOqD9rqw
They got thousands for a short time, how are they doing now? The parks are being cleared. Outnumbering the police isn't hard, they one a battle the war goes on, those thousands will go back to work or class tomorrow and the park is nearly empty now. Something may happen to turn it around, some violent police excess, and you could get your revolution. Stranger things have happened.
We've seen positive revolution before by peaceful people willing to lay it on the line. This is what's happening now. The spirit is undeniable and cannot be extinguished. The day of corporate greed is coming to an end and if you are a believer in that cause, you are going to be so lost.
I hope you're right, greed seems so common that I consider it part of human nature.
greed is not part of human nature. compassion and sharing is. that's why things are so screwed up: we are acting outside of our true natures.
This may bring change, but it will not bring a revolution. There simply are not enough miserable people in the US to bring about a true revolution. How many people got off their asses to march to DC? Twenty.
what alternate parallel universe do you live in. occupy IS the American people. not just a few disaffected protesters. wake up.
My parallel universe consists of teaching inner city high school and doing what I can daily to help my neighbors. I am not wealthy, but I am happy, as is most everyone I know. There are certainly problems with our system, but I think you will find most people agree with some of OWS's issues, but certainly will not embrace a "revolution."
well, you are wrong there. the people are ready for a revolution. that's why the occupy movement exists? how obvious can that be? the people stopped hoping in change through voting. we know now that its on the street action that will change things. as time goes on, you and others will start to see this. this is not a temporary protest of a few mal-contents.
All things depending on what kind way people guiding each other. Technological and social advancements or reforming system and going back to robot work doing 8 hours every 5 days.
you are right. it depends. but, we won't know until we get there. and, when we do, we will be up to the challenge as free people to do what we must. or, are you not up to that? do you need someone or some group to tell you what to do or what to believe in?
We are not there yet, what ever it will be, so we must make sure people will go right way, advanced social and technological society. If we just reform, we self-destruct, because it takes time to get people off their houses again. (Self-destruct is about planet earth becomes very very bad place where air will be nicely toxic. We right now are very close the cliff allready, so there is sometime still to get things right, but not much, but enough if we do things right way now)
There have been lots of protests so i am just saying what i am saying, let's get people this time toward advanced social and technological society. For the sake of earth and future of life on earth. ;)
our society needs to evolve beyond the greedy selfish and childish level we are at now. If we do that, and I have all the confidence it can be done, thanks to the occupy movement, then we can do anything. nothing will be beyond our capacity. The occupy movement is about adults collaborating. people everywhere naturally do this. its about discussing serious issues and then taking serious action. this is how human culture works... until they become enslaved.
You are telling people what to believe in. I don't need YOU to tell me what to believe in, that's for sure.
who's telling you to believe anything? I'm not your mother. try growing up.
THE NEW COMMON SENSE
While we who have named ourselves the “99%” may each have our own individual personal concerns and grievances, we know that we must set them aside at this time due to a more pressing need to demand the return of the Representation that has been taken from us. Until such time, we contend that nothing can be accomplished in a spirit of true discourse.
Read more: http://anoncentral.tumblr.com/post/12409353866/for-the-99-the-new-common-sense-must-distribute
Be careful that what replaces it is not worse than before. If things get bad a lot of people will accept a worse situation to get any semblance of comfort back.
you have a low estimation of Americans and people in general. I not worried about that. I'm worried about the present system continuing. Live free or Die baby.
I understand your position, but the "people" camp has nothing ready to wheel out. The "1%" have ploys ready to wheel out like a global currency in the form of SDRs and no doubt more international institutions or more power to the existing ones.
the ploys only work if people still believe them. we've stopped believing.
A revolution is by it's nature,
political.
And Michele Bachman has already been mic-checked.
then, why have their been so many social revolutions?
Yeah, and you see how many people were turned off by that, even people who hate her? Free speech goes both ways. When you started doing crap like that, you lost a lot of people who were semi-interested. The average US citizen, no matter how creepy they think the right is, would never want to have another group's right to assemble and discuss hijacked.
the point being is that the American people can't be dismissed or ignored any longer. We have to continue bringing trouble and inconvenience to those people in power. Especially the ones ignoring the condition that most Americans have to live in now. That's the point. I hope that some occupy protesters do the same to Obama, to Eric Cantor, to boehner, Reid and all of those in congress and the white house. and not to stop until they get. we should do the same to corporate leaders. we should occupy and harass and be a real pain in the ass, until people stop what they are doing. we shouldn't play by any of the rules.
Oh I dunno. Astroturfing seemed to work fairly well for repelicans during the health care debate.
They were bringing in tea party activists by the bus load.
And did that make you appreciate the tea partiers or despise them even more?
I despise the people that sent them.
You think corporate america is responsible for the economy mess? Probably they might have a share in responsibility, but don't get yourself too cheerful. Because of the massive american debt, america has got itself into a bigger problem: now china own american debt, or more simply, it's the creditor "owning" the country.
This means america will have to tax itself to get enough funds to regularize its debt. and will it will have to tax millions. even if you manage to tax wall street and the 1% the truth is: it won't be enough! So where to find more money? Nationalize corporations? maybe it can work for some time.. But ultimately it won't be enough, you'll have to sell them to foreign investors... And guess who will be there: chineese millionaires. Imagine all news channels, supermarkets, stores and office buildings in america owned by chineese stockholders.
When america will come out of this global recession, it wll be controled by chineese tycoons. Except that unlike the present american millionaires they will not hesitate to silence you if you oppose them. It's the difference betwen a world where at least you're allowed to disagree and propose changes, even if no one agrees with you, from a world where people who disagree must be eliminated.
Think about it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYKAbRK_wKA&feature=related
no, I'm sorry, but, we don't buy that "at least we aren't as bad as they are" argument anymore. We're Americans! We can do anything if we want to! But, we have to end our slavery to corporate control. The details we will figure out later. We will figure them out because we are intelligent, can-do and pragmatic Americans. We've just forgotten how.
NO. Put politics into Occupy. Just don't support the corrupt. It's that simple.
There are a few on the side of the working class.
Look into HR 2990 The National Employment Defense Act of 2011
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-2990
i looked at the bill, and i like it as a stopgap; i just which more senators had cosponsored it.
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/thomas.php
putting politics into occupy would kill the will of the people. but, that's want you want, isn't it?
read the fucking bill. I'm so sick of a lot of OWS people not wanting to support things THAT BENEFIT US. What is wrong with you? Did you read the bill? It fucking nationalizes the fed and gets rid of their power over us and puts a stop to inflation and the devalue of our US dollar. It creates jobs and helps rebuild cities and circulates wealth into the economy. A few other senators are trying to over turn "Citizens United" with a new bill too. So get off your anarchy train. Our system is actually great, it's just been fucked and hijacked along the way. not everyone is bought and not everyone is corrupt. Just the majority of them
Stop corporate money! We have a large number of great, well thought out, COMPLICATED ideas that will require a huge amount of "selling" and “explanation" and will garner GREAT OPPOSITION.
We need to be realistic & pick an issue that is simple – and that is popular -
that 83% of Americans already agree on -
that 76% of Republicans already agree on -
that 56% of TP already agree on -
that will bring together the people in OWS with the people outside of OWS.
Everybody wins!
Our only goal should be to pass a constitutional amendment to counter Supreme Court decisions Citizens United (2010) & Buckley v. Valeo (1976), that enable unlimited amounts of anonymous money to flood into our political system.
“Corporations and organizations are not a persons & have no personhood rights”
and
“money is not free speech”.
We don’t have to explain or persuade people to accept our position – we have to persuade them to ACT based on their own position. Pursuing this goal will prove to the world that we, at OWS, are a serious realistic Movement, with serious realistic goals. Achieving this goal will make virtually every other goal – jobs, taxes, infrastructure, Medicare – much easier to achieve –
by disarming our greatest enemy – GREED.
THE SUCCESS STORY OF THE AMENDING PROCESS The Prohibition movement started as a disjointed effort by conservative teetotalers who thought the consumption of alcohol was immoral. They ransacked saloons and garnered press coverage here and there for a few years. Then they began to gain support from the liberals because many considered alcohol partially responsible for spousal and child abuse, among other social ills. This odd alliance, after many years of failing to influence change consistently across jurisdictions, decided to concentrate on one issue nationally—a constitutional amendment. They pressured all politicians on every level to sign a pledge to support the amendment. Any who did not, they defeated easily at the ballot box since they controlled a huge number of liberal, and conservative and independent swing votes in every election. By being a single-issue constituency attacking from all sides of the political spectrum, they very quickly amassed enough votes (2/3) to pass the amendment in Congress. And, within just 17 months, they were successful in getting ¾ of the state legislatures to ratify the constitutional amendment into law. (Others were ratified even faster: Eight —took less than a year. The 26th, granting 18-year-olds the right to vote, took just 99 days.)
If they could tie the left and right into a success -
If Ohio won. If Arizona won. If Maine won. If Mississippi won - WHY CAN'T WE ??????????
I feel that we should stay with this simple text to overturn CU:
”corporations are not people” and “money is not free speech”
for four simple reasons and one – not so simple:
1
83% of Americans have already opposed CU in the ABC/Washington post poll and the above
IS THEIR POSITION ALREADY.
2
We don’t have to work to convince people on the validity of our position.
3
Simple is almost always better.
4
This simple Amendment is REQUIRED to overturn CU.
And all other electoral reform can be passed through the normal legislative process.
5
OWS and these pages are chock full of ( mostly ) excellent ideas to improve our country.
All of them have strong advocates – and some have strong opposition.
None of them has been “pre-approved” by 83% of Americans !
Pursuing this goal – without additional specifics is exactly what Americans want.
What do we want? Look at that almost endless list of demands – goals - aims.
Tax the rich. End the Fed. Jobs for all, Medicare for all. So easy to state! Can you imagine how hard it would be to formulate a “sales pitch” for any of these to convince your Republican friends to vote for any of them?
83% of Americans have ALREADY “voted” against CU. And 76% of the Rs did too.
All we have to do ask Americans is to pressure their representatives – by letters - emails – petitions.
Wanna take your family on vacation?
Convince your 7 year old to go to Mt Rushmore.
Then try to convince her to go to Disneyland.
Prioritizing this goal will introduce us to the world – not as a bunch of hippie radical anarchist socialist commie rabblerousers – but as a responsible, mature movement that is fighting for what America wants.
Ohio won. Arizona won. Maine won. Mississippi won -
I feel that using their tactics, and the tactics of the NRA, the AARP an the TP – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power to achieve their minority goals - plus the Prohibition Amendment tactics – bringing all sides together - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one MAJORITY task.
why should we ask corporate controlled government with hat in hand to "pretty please" make some little changes. no, I think not. I think that we should start being adults again and take our responsibilities - to be Citizens again. not consumers. This is our country and our government. It doesn't belong to corporations or to the rich and powerful. Its ours and we should be self-governing and the people should be making the economic decisons. No, I think we just need to grab our balls.
Because we can. When they refuse to do what the majority of the people want... THEY GOT ANOTHER THING COMING
Another THINK coming. You are not the majority. You are, for the most part, a mob of uneducated dolts who people could hardly have any faith in.
neither are hate filled people like yourself.
I don't hate intelligent, level-headed OWSers. I think they have some valid points, but there are too many young and clueless people in your group for anyone to have an ounce of faith in this movement. That is why you need to find people who are capable of expressing themselves and your views in a mature and intelligent manner.
Here in my city we range from 18 to 70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNt-jJZvVpA
Our ages range like this in most cities too. The national news media is just bad at proper coverage.
I do not mean there are no young and intelligent OWSers and we can only trust older people, and I apologize if you thought I was implying you were one of the less intelligent. But there are a lot of completely clueless young people who are out there with very little knowledge of government or even what exactly they are doing there. This is why I really think OWS needs to ditch the encampments - too many people there for the wrong reasons and they are making OWS look really bad.
oh, like in the past 30 years. you mean, like that?
Yes be cynical. See how productive that is. We didn't have a global movement for the past 30 years
No new system just put a muzzle on the corps. For years they have pried their way into our political system they have no more place there then does religious doctrine. Funny all these years people yelled about posting the ten commandments at city hall and while everyone was distracted by that we allowed the cult of corporation to take over. We don't even need to do away with corps are anything that drastic just remove the attachments to DC that have developed. They can only do what the law allows them to do.
there are no attachments of corporations to the government. the corporations ARE the government. if you remove the corporations, there is no government. we will have to form one.
Actually if you removed all the shit and started over with the Constitution we would be fine. Our outline for government is not the issue it is our implementation of it that sucks
I'm recently beginning to think that the constitution is outdated. maybe something new, more practical.
There's no reason we can't control our government as it exists. See: http://occupywallst.org/forum/party-of-the-people/
of course there is. corporate control of our government. that's the reason. that's not gonna change without a collapse of the present system.
The movement on the streets will gather support. But, it is my opinion that eventually, it will have to come down to a change in policy. If both parties are corrupt, then we need a new party.
We don't need yet another party to corrupt. In fact the thing that really scares the two dominance parties is the increase in Americans registering Independent. No party. They can't predict how Independents will think or vote and this drives them nuts.
No party is the ultimate political power.
SEE: George Washington: "Let me now take a more comprehensive view, & warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the Spirit of Party, generally." http://home.ptd.net/~aahpat/aandc/gw.htm
Ageless wisdom for the ages.
I do get what you are saying. The two party's that have arisen are merely 'factions'. They will do whatever is best for their party, not for their country. It is a sad fact that I have recently woken up to. I don't want either party to have a part in our government. But without a third choice, where does our vote go? maybe we don't need an independent 'party' so much as we need an independent candidate.
We can by-pass the corruption of ballot access laws put in place by the two parties to obstruct us by using the Write-in function on the ballot.
Pick our own candidates and support them with Write-In campaigns that do not costs millions of dollars or require gathering thousands and thousands of ballot access signatures.
I plan a protest vote in the primary by switching to Democrat for the primary and Writing-In Elizabeth Warren for president. Wall Street and the banks hate and fear her. If enough people join me and do this for both Democratic and Republican primaries it would send a strong message to the parties and to Wall street.
We can field our own congressional candidates this way too. Publicize an Independent Write-in campaign for OWS organizers in each state in districts that we can have the most impact in, urban districts that are not as controlled and subverted as "safe districts".
Not a bad idea, if enough people do it. But Elizabeth Warren is still with the democratic party. I have had enough of democrat vs republican, it has gotten us nowhere.
I won't support her because she is a Democrat. Nor will I oppose a party candidate just because of their party association. that is throwing the baby out with the bath water. I'll write in Warren because to do so will make Wall Street quake in their Italian loafers.
We can register in whichever party has a candidate that we particularly like of dislike to put our primary vote where it will have the most strategic effect.
In the general election we can Write-In our preferred candidiate, if we have one. Or we can use the campaign season to get the two party candidate to address and acknowledge our vital economic issues. Then, if we have no one to Write-In we can vote for whichever major party candidate reflects our values. If there is none then we can Write-In NONE OF THE ABOVE or OWS! One way or another we express our values in the most important time and place to do it, the ballot box. And we do it our way not the way the two parties dictate.
I agree . something needs to be done in the political arena. perhaps something similiar to court room proceedings. where there is a prosecution and defence .. and while both parties make their case it is left upon the jury to reach the verdict , not the lawyers.
we don't need a new party. we need a new system. both parties are controlled by corporations. so is our economy. its seems like people are either asleep or in denial on this.
A government is necessary because people still need to be governed, the wall street crooks just proved it. I just think that an independent party is long past due. If people can come together, and I think we can, and form a reasonable charter for true change in this country, and we all work together, then we can fix the broken system.
people don't need to BE governed. they need to govern. I won't work with anyone that wants me to be governed. The people should govern. govern over the corporations and everything else.
Agreed. I am with you here. How will people 'govern over the corporations and everything else' without a government? How about a government that is for the people by the people. Got to be one of the best ideas of all time.
well, you said "be governed". and, I disagreed. we need to govern, not be governed.
That is so true. The fact is, that people who can govern themselves, do not need government. It simply does not apply. N/A. However, we still have to live in a world along with a whole bunch of other people. And some of them, still need to be governed. That is why the people who can govern themselves need to take back control of the government. It sadly has fallen into the wrong hands.
I'm sorry if I keep harping on this, BUT, we the people govern ourselves. NO ONE should govern us, and we should not BE governed.
I know, its like a circular argument. But I don't mind, I would like to understand. Are you are saying we should govern ourselves and therefore do not need government?
no, I'm saying that WE are the government. this is what the constitution is about. Its sad that the conservatives have made it be "us" and "the government". there is no difference in the constitution WE are the GOVERNMENT. WE govern ourselves. How sad that this basic concept has been made to be so confusing.
ok, let me get this straight. The government that is now in place is actually US. We are responsible for all the regulations, the dept, the corruption?
no, its not. WE should be the government. WE should be in control and self-governing. When we say "government" it should mean that we are talking about ourselves. The government is not us anymore. Its corporations.
Which involves.....wait for it....POLITICS! And are you actually in Prague??
no, it doesn't. wait for it.... it involves "citizenship" and responsibility. not being governed.
The NYC camp is a microcosm of this citizenship you speak of, self governing - is this the type of government you wish for?
could be. but, why don't we all see how it goes? see what solutions present themselves? much better than being a slave to have these questions and challenges.
We'll see how it goes. Take care.
the replacement or absence of the present system does not mean anarchy. what kind of logic is that? are you assuming Americans are not up to the task?
so to the above without the reply button, a lot of blather - how about a specific course of action?
ok. collapse the current system and replace it with a democratic economic system where the people's voice is THE voice in making economic decisions. the details can be worked out at the General Assembly. and what's your solution? working within the current system? as in voting? we've seen how that's worked. corporations control our government and our economics. so, really, whats your solution?
so you want all policy decisions to come up for a proposition vote - majority rules?
no, a consensus. like the occupy movement is using. you need to find out what's going on before you start discussing.
how do you come to a consensus & have it implemented? I am just trying to understand the mechanism for enacting this new form of government.
explore this site and the many other occupy sites across the country and the world. explore it and ask questions if you are truly interested. if you are not, then, its a waste of your time and mine.
I am asking questions & you are being elusive & wont answer.
no, I'm telling you to do your own thinking and quit acting like a slave. I'm not going to spoon feed you. the revolution is happening and you better make up your own mind whether you are in or out. that demands independent and mature thought. are you up to it?
I am asking questions . You don't want to answer them. perhaps it is because you cant.
"The present system must collapse and be replaced."
If this is the position of OWS then OWS has lost my support.
how's that working out in Libya?
well its not. its mine. but, what about the present system do you think is good?
The system, yes.
The corruption within it, no.
Tearing down a system of government and society may well not result in the utopia that you vaguely allude to as an outcome. Are you prepared for a police state with NO Constitutional protections at all? That is a very real potential outcome when you tear down a system without any agreed to alternative ready to put into its place.
I am not willing to support that potential. I think I understand the nature of the corruption and its limits. I think that if we work in a coordinated way we can overcome the current corruption. There will always be another corruption to overcome but that is the nature of people. that is why political "systems" are needed to respond, not just mindless incident by incident reaction to each provocation.
Americans of good will have not fought back against the corruption for forty years. OWS appears to be the first major effort to actually confront the corruption. I would hate to see it devolve and dissipate into mindless reaction when I can clearly see that OWS has the power within itself to overwhelm the corruption.
when did I vaguely allude to a utopia? I'm an American so, therefore, pragmatic and realistic. why do you want this present system to continue given how corrupt and destructive it is? and how, no political actions in 3 decades has changed anything. you're asking the 99% to just be patient and tweak the system - a system controlled by corporations? are you insane? no way. that's not gonna happen. while you were sleeping the revolution started.
You are running around in circles saying nothing but generalities.
I am asking the 99% to take back control and assert the critical mass that they bring to the system.
that's pretty general. specify. "critical mass" we need a new system not based on the vunerabilities and the failures of the existing one. this movement is less than 3 months old. I think we have time to take care and think about the best way to move. one old bad characteristic of the old system is that there are not individual leaders that can corrupt the system with their own personality. a general consensus takes the negatives from each individual and removes them while combining the best ideas from all. is that specific enough? and you?
I have offered a lot of specifics. You refuse to acknowledge them and instead meander on in pointless unfocused generalities.
Critical mass is that so many people across so many generations and social strata have been negatively impacted in the same way that they have the numbers to effect change within the current system. According to some polls(I hate polls) more than 54% of Americans identify with and agree with the basic economic equity contentions of OWS. That is critical mass. and it is far more than the 20% that is all that the tea party has ever polled. Or even produced in the 2010 election.
This critical mass can overwhelm the corruption that Wall Street imposes today. We can take back the democratic system and fix it with good people who do not accept the corruption. It won't be easy but it is how to tear down the corrupt system and replace it without the need for anarchy and police state in the interim.
the corporations control and own our government and our economy. politics has changed NOTHING in 30 years. why do you think ANYTHING will change within the present system? WHY?
Because the financial crash of 2008 has negatively impacted so many Americans that the scales have tipped. Opposition to the corruption has hit a critical mass for the first time in forty years.
The corrupt do not own everything. They own a winning margin. It is just a small margin but they know how to focus it. And they know that causing folks like you to become disaffected and disenchanted with participating enlarges their margin. So many Americans have been economically hurt across so many generations by the 2008 collapse that the winning margin of corruption is only as good as their ability to keep good people from participating. From focusing on solutions.
If you really want to scare the fuck out of Wall Street start a voter registration drive at all of the encampments and rallies.
Carry large signs saying RESTORE GLASS-STEAGALL!
Make stencils with "H.R. 2451", its the law to restore Glass-Steagall, and paint it on every street in the financial district of every city in America. And in the street in front of every office of every member of congress. And at the door of every news organization in America.
But most important is the one thing they depend on the most, do not allow them to win by causing you to be disaffected. Your disaffection is their success.
politics will do nothing. this is a historical fact now. 30 years of hoping for change through the political system. after obama came into office, Americans looked for change which didn't come - again. corporations control our government and our economy. how do you expect change to happen within the present system?
I told you how.
You have offered no alternatives. All that you propose is anarchy. Anarchy will only lead to a police state. That is a load of shit. We can do better.
why do you speak of anarchy? I haven't.
Because you offer nothing of substance to replace the current system that you want to destroy. No political system of substance equals anarchy.
no it doesn't mean that. but, I have already posted what I'd like to see. basically, a democratic economic system (not even talking political system yet) where the people are THE voice in making economic decisions. NOT corporations. have a little more faith in the abilities and the determination of the American people. if the current system collapses, we Americans will figure it out and find a better way. we won't be wandering in the wilderness hoping that the corporations will come save us slaves.
"democratic" defines the political system.
It is what we have today if we can confront and remove the corruption. There simply is no need to reinvent the wheel here. We simply need to re-inflate the tire and give it a new generation of vitality.
no, we don't need to re-invent the wheel. that is what you want. we need something better, different. maybe wings.
The creators and admins of this site think anarchism is the answer. http://www.gaycitynews.com/articles/2011/11/10/gay_city_news/news/doc4ebace95a0c26985577656.txt
Central banks ... not corporations. The FED, IMF, BIS , World Bank et al.
http://www.themoneymasters.com/the-money-masters/milton-friedman-end-the-fed/
reforming the present system is impossible. corporations control the system completely. both the government and the economic. its absurd to think that we can change this by tweaking the present system. in the aftermath of the tearing down or the collapsing of the present system, a new democratic economic system will be put in its place where the voice of the people is THE voice when it comes to making economic decisions. There should be a federal bank, a real federal bank that is owned and operated by the people.
Impossible to convert Federal Reserve Note to United States Note?
Impossible no. Dangerous ... yes.
why? because you think Americans couldn't handle creating a new system and working together like adults? or do you think that Americans are spoiled, greedy little children that can do nothing but complain. Americans, when they want to are intelligent, pragmatic, have a can-do attitude, and will work together to make a stable workable system when they have to. my conservative sister told me right after 9/11 that our economy would never recover. I told her she was wrong. don't count out the American can-do spirit. its a gross underestimation.
What kind of new system are you looking for tulcak? Are you aligned with Noam Chomsky ... adbusters ... and the new left?
and why aren't you looking for a new system? do you like this one? are you aligned with the corporations and the reagan right? WHO are you? If you tell me who you are and I tell you who I am, then we can engage in endless personal attacks that solve nothing and distract. Or, is that your strategy? I don't care who you are, and you shouldn't care who I am. Either our arguments stand up to each other or they fall as they may. Can you do that? Or is it necessary for you to hate and attack people instead of attacking a corrupt system - whether it be yours or mine. With your attitude, the constitution never would have been crafted. It would died ad-midst in-fighting and personal attacks. The British would have used the opportunity to regain the colonies. So, would you like to engage in hate and personal attack, or would you really like to discuss the bull in the china shop?
/b/ro ... you are not my enemy.
I prefer a return to the constitutional republic the USA was founded on ... then this kleptocracy that we have become.
I think we both agree the system is broke. The question is how to fix it.
So once again ... I ask ... what new system do you have in mind?
a democratic economic system where the voice of the people is THE voice in making economic decisions. that's what I want along with a full spectrum of change. one example: people must prove that the business that they want to form will benefit the community and society as a whole. if they cannot, they should not be allowed to exist. many other examples I can give.
Do you disagree with John Locke's ... "life, liberty, and property"? That individuals have inalienable rights?
Do you believe that the fruits of one's labor belongs to the community?
but when personal property allows a few to effect my liberty and sicken my life, shouldn't that property holder be sequestered. same idea that was used to regulate tobacco should regulate property.
do I believe in a sharing community? a community where we are all in this together? yes. do I believe that its every person for themselves? no, that's selfish and self-centered, greedy and childish and destructive. sharing means trust. sharing also means that you have to live in a community of mature adults who can compromise. sharing means responsibility. selfishness requires no responsibility at all.
Very benevolent of the corporate owned media to air it, don't you think :-P
air what? confrontations between police and protesters? that's all there is?
You must be working for Obama or Pelosi, persuading OWS members not to vote out dems in 2012. If everybody thinks like you do, we'll be even more overrun by corporate greed, because the corrupt law makers will NEVER be voted out.
"Do you really think that the corporations will allow any change?" This is one of the most ridiculous sentences I've read on this forum. There has never been a movement like this before. Make it effective by voting in a new party who have morals in 2012.
I find it amazing that even now, people think they can change things by voting in a political system that is controlled by the very entities that prevent change from happening. That's crazy!
Suggestions: LaRouche Movement...LyndonLaRouche as an US-Democrat and progressive Tea Party member...and Ron Lawl
http://www.bilderberg.org
Michael C. Ruppert "Crossing the Rubicon - the decline if the American empire at the end of the age of oil"
http://www.fromthewilderness.com
Michael C. Ruppert Peak Oil Blog
http://www.china-intern.de/page/wirtschaft-hintergrund/1318019478.html
100 Mal Niedergang [07.10.2011] 100 Zahlen und Fakten über den Niedergang der US-Ökonomie.
China kommt natürlich auch darin vor, unter Nr. 65, 67, 68 und 69.
100 A staggering 48.5% of all Americans live in a household that receives some form of government benefits. Back in 1983, that number was below 30 percent.
If occupy wants to fight then how about fighting for your life. We all people are on a path that includes a death sentence for life on the planet and 5 years from now it will be to late for us to do anything about it. Scientist from around the world have reports that indicate the world leaders have refused to address global warming in time to save life on our planet and in 5 years our planet will be past the tipping point of 450 ppm (parts per million) of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Its present level is 390ppm and last year, despite recession, more carbon dioxide from fossil fuels poured into the atmosphere than ever before. Here's the bottom line-- Life on the planet will be doomed.
I don't really support destroying human life but look at Global Warming this way; it won't destroy the planet, life will go on, but it could disrupt society enough to wipe out a good portion of humanity. Embrace it. Accept overpopulation, pollution, warming all as natures way to fix itself, like a fever in the body can destroy an invading illness. Just that humanity can be called the illness in this case. You'll never kill all life and nature will start over with whatever is left.
I think your referring to the dinosaurs? Hey maybe the next higher life form can do better for one another.
Doubt the dinosaurs did it to themselves, but extinctions have happened over and over again. If a species can't adapt or even if it gets too good at it's job and over populates and environment. Nature will start over.
We are little different from dinosaurs, we are making more stuff and cutting trees and mining everything possible for profit. (For profit right now, no science and brains included in this package)
We could advance technologically and socially and start living more "better with nature itself and ourselves". We are right now isolated from nature and from our own race. (Many people don't have idea what is psychology of biological form)
We are crashing course just because our culture is based on self-destructivity.
You're right, but it may take a near death experience for humanity for us to realize how we fit in this world. That's always the way it is with people, we have a big flaw, we only think about today.
If that is true, then should we waken up people build spaceship and go live on moon or etc that time after other people are near death experience. :D
If it is true that kind experience would be waking up people, then we maybe need some machine what will create hallucination about that near death experience. ;)
Two choices, more can be done still because there is endless choices. :D
Okay, assuming this revolution works and the system is replaced by a new one, how does politics get avoided. Even OWS is politics. The GAs are politics. Just running a family household involves politics. Unless you live as a hermit somewhere, politics will be part of your life.
really? have you attended a GA? or a protest? or an occupy? anywhere?
Live stream only. Voting is politics. Debating is politics. Making decisions for/by a group is politics. What form of govt do you envision that does not involve politics? Even the drumming debacle was politics. Groups will always form.
informed and committed adults who accept responsibility are not a "group" they are not political. they are pragmatic. try to imagine a world where you are part of the decision making process. the current system is you and I waiting for the proclamation of the powers that be to tell us what to do. aren't you tired of being a slave? or is that just easier for you?
Most of its easier to be slave to others than use own brains.
I have a few problems with our current system, but not enough to feel me need a new one. I don't make a ton of money, but I have a job that makes a difference and I enjoy my life. So no, I don't feel like a slave in the least. I've traveled the world enough to know that there are far far worse situations for women to be in at least.
I AGREEE.
Cutting a billion dollars from the military justifies giving a trillion dollars to bankers.
yes, lets ignore politics. derrrr and ignore the real problem
Only think striking a chord...is the police batons, off your empty heads
and your jaw on the ground when everything changes. :)
Buddy, Buddy, How is this for thinking out side the box
If, or once, The Occupy Nation agrees on one vision, it should be imperative that they find candidates that will agree to ask for a Constitutional Convention. This convention, through the internet, will become the forum for debating with the opposition. Because that debate will be accessible by all—and easier to hotlink—anyone who chooses not to participate abdicates their civil rights to the New American Consensus. This simple act, I BELIEVE, is the only way to change course. But a new deal has to be struck and agreed on before it can co-opt the government. I implore anyone who is taken this occupy thing seriously to tell me why I am wrong.
Sincerely, Jesse Thomas Heffran
This would not work, we do have a population that is mostly caught up with technology (internet) yet we also have a large enough segment that has no access to it on a regular basis. To do as you propose we would be disallowing a segment of the population a voice and their rights.
Parts of your proposal may be adoptable but other parts aren't.
with the money earned from donations we giv them a voice.
Therein lies the rub...how? Buying them computers isn't an answer for the technologically challenged, computers as a communication devise are worthless without the attended services of a provider.
Your statement about abdicating civil rights for nonparticipation is where it all stops.
technocracy, baby. the engineers, in my opinion, are a fact based lot. In the real world you will find an engineer you trust and that will be where you devise yours and your allies' argument, and if i believe it is sound Ill join your protoparty
no, no , no. why would the occupy movement want to adopt the same type of system that got us here? corporations control our government and our economy. there is no way to make change within the present system. the corporations won't allow it. they like it just fine. and why would the occupy movement want to adopt a system that has the same vulnerabilities as the current system. leaders can be corrupted, influenced or simply make mistakes. a consensus based system takes out most of the negative impact that individuals bring to the table and combines most of the positive impact from individuals. why should we just create a new system that is the same as the old?
you miss the point. after we know that enough voting Americans have the same vision for America, we ask for a convention to make that vision law. call it a controlled experiment. If there is evil out there, they will never let this happen, but if we do live in a democracy, and evil is in our mind, than this is a piece of cake. One thing though, the coopting party has to decided before they coopt.
co-opt what is already ours? voting? as in, voting in a political system where corporations control the whole process? they even own the electronic voting machines. The vision of the American people is not represented in the current system and cannot be achieved through it.
the convention makes that a memory. they cant control an idea, which manifests itself through the convention
I guess that's cryptic and crafted for perfection? well, snap my suspenders and twirl my bow tie, honey, put on your sunday dress, we is going to town.
he'll be forced to or lose his place on the pyramid.
that's what a working class life style gets you. simplicity in a nutshell
no, it doesn't. fools live in every strata.
a fool only knows he is a fool because nobody tells him he is a fool. and I mean to his face, and with facts as to why he is a fool.
right, and a fool won't come out and say exactly what he/she means. life is short and if you waste time by walking on eggshells or being ambiguous, then why bother?
LOL ! OWS is politics being expressed as a childish temper tantrum - pleeeaaazzze!
really? how?
your discussing policy on how to redistribute wealth
I am?
that's what this whole movement is about - steal from the rich & give to the poor. please !
really? why?
really why what?
"that's what this whole movement is about - steal from the rich & give to the poor. please !" but, if you don't have the balls to answer, ok.
if that's not what it's about then what is it about?
ah, a good question. why didn't you ask that before? did you come here to learn something (not from me or any other big mouth)? or did you come here to complain? I can understand complaining, I do it myself, but, you have an opportunity to learn something here. I spent the last two days giving some person shit about "anarchy" and turns out, I might have been wrong (maybe not). I'm checking out some articles from links he posted. I might have to say I was wrong, but, the good part about it is I really may have learned something.
so - educate me- I still dont know what this movement hopes to achieve & how
Let me try...this movement is about returning empowerment to the flesh and blood people of this country. To reduce or eliminate the influence of a certain few or artificial entities over our elected officials.
I think these two pretty much cover it...the return of empowerment is the biggest issue.
wow. me? hmm... I don't know if I'm up to that. I guess the I can say this, is that we the people are not the government now. we don't decide things like whether or not we should spend our tax money on TARP. just like the Greek people were not allowed to vote on the referendum on austerity measures. The G20 decided that for the Greek people. I could quote a lot of statistics, but, I don't think I'd be serving the movement too well if I did that. I'd have to day that Americans are tired of being told what to do and how to do it and when to do it when it is us, the people, that should be deciding those things. Some folks say that this is class warfare. I'd have to say its not that, its a fight to get back what is supposed to be ours. Self-determination and self-government. I apologize to everyone if I screwed this up.