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Forum Post: It's unlikely we're going to vote our way out of this...

Posted 11 years ago on Aug. 29, 2012, 1:14 p.m. EST by kaiserw (211)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

When the powers that be change the rules to prevent genuine change by the people, then take further actions to lock out the public from the electoral process - The RNC has instituted a new rule that requires all delegates for the next election (assuming there is one, and that's a big IF) to be signed off by the last R President... Watch for similar actions in the DEM party soon.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable." John Kennedy

Things have become very scary and sad...

TAMPA, FLA.–It was a far cry from the hijinx at the 1980 convention, when Ted Kennedy tried to wrangle delegates, along with the Democratic nomination, away from President Jimmy Carter–but Ron Paul’s supporters did wage a small-scale revolt in Tampa today.

Delegates from Nevada tried to nominate Mr. Paul from the floor, submitting petitions from their own state as well as Minnesota, Maine, Iowa, Oregon, Alaska and the Virgin Islands. That should have done the trick: Rules require signatures from just five states. But the party changed the rules on the spot. Henceforth, delegates must gather petitions from eight states.

Ron Paul supporters filled the hall with boos and shouts of “no!” Delegates from Maine chanted “point of order!” Related

Then, during the roll call to officially nominate Mitt Romney, 17 Nevada delegates loyal to Mr. Paul voted their conscience, even though Mr. Romney carried their state handily.

This act of defiance also made absolutely no impact on the nominating process, but upset the former governor of Nevada, Robert List. He called the chairman of the state delegation an “outlaw.”




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[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 11 years ago

It's not the vote that counts. It's who counts the votes.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

It is pretty low down & dirty. I knew the Ron Paul were headed to something like this. It was kept pretty quiet. Only a bit of effort to cover it by MSM, and the R party kept silent on it. I wasn't surprised though, Ron Paul lost! You weren't surprised were you? And you think the Dems are gonna do the same? But there was no challenge to incumbent Pres Obama. I think you're wrong about that.

Are you also saying that there will be violent revolution? I hope not. I don't want that. Do you? And were you joking when you said this would be the last election? I'm afraid you are wrong about that as well. I mean I disagree with that.

We MUST avoid violent revolution. We MUST take back the govt with peaceful means. That means regaining control through the voting system.

[-] 2 points by kaiserw (211) 11 years ago

No sane person wants violence. Everyone loses. However putting one's head in the sand thinking that it isn't a possible outcome is foolhardy. Human beings are wired to be overly optimistic. It's a survival mechanism. It's the "I'll beat the odds", or "It won't happen to me." mentality. It's a pretty common thing in terminal medical patients. It's entirely necessary and good, but it shouldn't be allowed to blind people to the likely possibilities.

I'm with Chris Hedges, violence is non-productive and it should be avoided at all costs, but I'm not in control, neither are you. I'm just one guy with a keyboard.

People drunk on power do some awful and crazy things, don't underestimate them. Caesar, Pinochet, Mubarak, Assad, the Philippines, Hito, Mao, Ceausescu, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, the leaders of Nazi occupied France, Turkey, Zimbabwe, Congo, Argentina, several centuries in England, Ireland, Mussolini...

Unfortunately, tyranny is more the rule than the exception. It takes a brave soul to look into history and realize "we" are not any better than them. If you live in or visit the US or countries under the US empire, alarm bells should be ringing deafeningly.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

I'm not saying it isn't possible. It may even be likely by some measures. And like you of course I don't want violence. Everyone loses but no body more than the poor.

Maybe I am naive, You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us. And theworld will live as one.

Things can be turned around. There is still hope. We must fight. We cannot give up.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 11 years ago

I actually heard Ezra Klein say on MSNBC this morning "This is the last election" then moved on with his talking point. This could very well have been a misspeak but I thought it was ironic to hear that from him a liberal, then seeing it on your thread. Today is the first time I've heard this mentioned and now twice in as many hours.

Q: What makes you feel this could be the last election?

[-] 1 points by kaiserw (211) 11 years ago

I've done an incredible amount of reading (history, economics, and philosophy) over the past 5 years, and I see a pretty clear trend. I may be suffering from confirmation bias, but I don't think so. I genuinely try to challenge my logic in this. It doesn't pay off for me to be right. There are several forces that are coalescing together at the same time amplifying one another: Economic cycle, tyranny trends, global politics, and the increasing stress of the US global Empire.

The economic cycle is best summed up with this: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/big-reset-2012-and-2013-will-usher-end-scariest-presentation-ever

and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyzujydn2AU

These points are confirmed by actions of various people including Soros, John Paulson, and many others.

A book that does a good job of explaining the abstract human trends over time is "The Fourth Turning" http://www.fourthturning.com/html/fourth_turning.html

Global politics and the US empire are largely the same. The US, like a new Rome, occupies and controls the entire modern world. Chalmers Johnson (recently passed away) has captured this idea brilliantly in his books. Nemesis was his last book, unbelievably good and very well done. He's a brilliant man. Here's a couple videos with him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPr_T7btVgA


Also Naomi Wolf has been at the leading edge of seeing reality confirmed by actions of the last few years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH5U-BPJor4&feature=related

Combining the information (proved correct by the Fourth Turning and, Chalmers Johnson), and using historical empires rise and fall for a general pattern template, the general idea of what faces us is incredibly clear.

What does it mean for the future? Well, it means war. With whom, I have some ideas, We could very well see civil war combined with world war. I'm also a student of warfare. Putting this all together in the modern framework, It is very likely to see 4th Generation Warfare scenario increasing in geography and scope. Think Afghanistan in Virginia...

Chalmers Johnson correctly states that you cannot have an Empire and a Republic. If they choose to keep the empire we will be under increasing tyranny, and increasing state power. Maybe we still have elections, but they'll hardly mean anything - Putin, Mubarak, etc.

Could we avoid war, and the end of elections, maybe, but like 2 tectonic plates, one side has to give, to relieve the pressure. However, there are no signs that the state is going to reduce it's power quietly. We are facing a scenario that will likely be to the size and scale of the revolutionary war, WWII, and the Civil War.



[-] 1 points by kaiserw (211) 11 years ago

I know, I hate being right. It's like the curse of Cassandra, who could see the future, but nobody believed her.

I had a friend in SFO I warned not to buy a house at the top of the market 1M+. I told him the market was going to crash 25% or so. He didn't believe me.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 11 years ago

Not so sure it's impossible. After ww2 the debt equaled 112% of GDP. Now it is about 100%. You do realize the US could just print the money, however that would tend to create a lot of inflation risk.


[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 11 years ago

I posted my last response before I read this one. It seems we fundamentally agree. When a nation has built a military machine as vast as the one the US has built, it is likely it will be used. Are you familiar with the book "Limits to Growth" and the general concept? http://ourfiniteworld.com/2011/10/24/2012-reaching-limits-to-growth/

[-] 0 points by kaiserw (211) 11 years ago

If you apply GAAP accounting principles, the net present value liabilities to the US is more than 81 Trillion, more than the GDP of the entire planet. That includes medicare, medicaid, social security, pensions, VA benefits, etc. It's not going to ever be repaid, and most people will never see their benefits.

The national debt only figures up what we've spent in the past.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 11 years ago

OK, now we are including unfunded (or unfundable) liabilities. You may be right on that, but my opinion as to why that is probably the case is based on my belief that economic growth, both in the US, and globally, is essentially over. All economic projections are generally based on a presumption of BAU. I don't think it's going to happen.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 11 years ago

I am concerned that like WW2, it will begin in other flashpoints, and the major powers will be pulled into war to assist allies. By the time Americans hear about it, the thing will have a life of it's own.

[-] 1 points by kaiserw (211) 11 years ago

Agreed, that is a very likely possibility, Israel and Iran could be the match.

Remember the old Bedouin saying: "I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers". A strike on Iran could very easily be a rapid start to WWIII.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 11 years ago

Actually, Israel has said they will begin holding Lebanon accountable. So they attack Lebanon, and the entire middle east will then be against Israel.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Wow. I guess we should start hoarding food and ammo. Build a bomb shelter?

Are you here in America? How are you preparing?

[-] 1 points by kaiserw (211) 11 years ago

Switzerland is one giant bomb shelter. We'll be fine as long as I can get home, and we don't get nuked.

Why, are you preparing? What are your preparations?

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Me.? No way. I don't believe that defeatist stuff. I am eternally positive! I know things will improve. Things have been worse. Just ask my grandparents, (when they were alive).

Nah. NYC has always been a target for instance. And I've always said when the bombs start fallin', and I see a mushroom cloud? I'm running towards it. Why would I want to live after that?.

Things will be fine. As long as we continue this growing progressive movement. As long as enough of us do not give up. As long as we keep fighting. I will choose dieing on my feet to dieing on my knees any day.

Good luck in Switzerland, and in all your good work. I suppose we will have to get along without you. send me a message when you leave, I'll know the end is near.


You're not leavin now are you?

[-] 1 points by kaiserw (211) 11 years ago

The future is unwritten, I'll be optimistic until the point where my life is in danger. There's still some time. Though, I want to be realistic about the chances we have.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

Whew!. Let me know boss. I got a kid in college and a family that depends on me! I'm in the middle of NYC and no car!

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 years ago

Poor libe(R)tarians, they just don't know what tools they are and have been to the GOP.

Not to worry though, Mr. Ps progeny is even worse than dad, and he's a (R) too, just like daddy.

Now he can play the GOP foil as Ron retires to draw off his offshore accounts.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 11 years ago

"Unlikely"? Of course we're not gonna vote our way out of this. We MUST vote of course to keep the right wing wackos out. But the only "way out of this" is a robust, growing, progressive movement that works with ALL like minded groups to pressure, and agitate for electoral reform and many more changes to improve the lives of the 99%.

[-] -1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 11 years ago

I am glad that someone sees through the political posturing.

What people fail to realize is that there exists an already set agenda for this nation by the children of the founding fathers, and those who wish to go back to the way it was in the beginning of this nation. It has gotten out of their control and they want it back!

Until individuals realize that the shyt is truly gonna hit the fan, this country, its good moral citizens and the nations of people (who are not utilizing their voices) within this great nation are doomed!