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Forum Post: Israel vs. Palestine

Posted 1 year ago on Nov. 22, 2012, 2:27 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80 (6584)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Israel is conducting a brutal and vicious occupation of Palestine. This occupation, which has been going on for many years now, is illegal; it’s in violation of international law, and condemned by the UN and virtually the entire world – except, of course, for the United States and Israel.

Now, when a state is conducting an illegal occupation, the ones who are being occupied have the right to defend themselves – including with the use of arms. In this conflict Israel is the aggressor; the Palestinians are therefore the ones who have a right to defend themselves. This is fully in accordance with international law. It’s called self defense – an obviously logical and reasonable right and principle that must apply to all human beings. It is the ones who are being occupied that have the right to defend themselves against the occupier, not the other way around.

This does not, however, mean that the Palestinians have the right to do whatever they want when fighting back against the aggressor and occupier. Although the crimes and killings done by Israel vastly exceeds that of the Palestinians, Hamas and many militant Palestinians have, during this conflict, committed crimes as well, like killing civilians with rockets, for example.

It is however Israel that has the responsibility and obligation to pull out of the occupied territories, and stop the atrocities. It is Israel that has the main responsibility and must end their illegal activities.

The United States is also an important factor in this conflict. Israel could not have done all these crimes without the support – politically and militarily – of the U.S. Israel is dependent of this support. The United States has the power to stop more or less all Israeli bombing, terror and occupation.

So what must be done? Well, there is a solution that virtually all Palestinians and Palestinian groups and organizations accept. This solution is also accepted and supported by virtually the entire world and the United Nations: The two-state solution based on the 67-borders.

If the state of Israel decides it wants to start accepting international law, and stop conducting illegal occupation and bombing of Palestine, they must withdraw from the occupied territories and accept the 67-borders.

It is the occupation that is the root cause of this conflict; the occupation must end.

Palestine Is Still The Issue by John Pilger

US/Israeli Crimes Against Palestine by Noam Chomsky

125 Comments

125 Comments


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[-] 4 points by Shule (2030) 1 year ago

Reality on the ground is, as Shadz66 suggests below, the viability of a two state solution has been overcome by events. Over the years progressively ever more extreme right wing governments in Israel supported by extreme right wing political forces in the U.S. have brought matters past that point long ago. These extreme rightists in all likelihood don't care for any solution of any type as warmongering is their strategy and tactic in of itself. I feel the average Israeli and the average Palestinian can care less what the land is called, or what government reins over them so long as they can be secure in their homes, and raise their children peacefully. The real question is how does one get rid of these right wing extremists who are constantly stoking the fires for war.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Yes, the key to solving this conflict is the US and Israeli population organizing big opposition to the policies their governments are carrying out.

It's not a law of nature that right-wing politicians supporting Israeli crimes are in charge, nor is the illegal occupation. It can all be changed.

[-] 3 points by turbocharger (1418) 2 months ago

So much for ceasefire: https://news.vice.com/article/cellphone-video-captures-gaza-civilian-reportedly-shot-and-killed-by-sniper

Now that Murdoch and FOX have a significant stake in Vice, expect the coverage that is anti Israeli to slowly dwindle to nothing, the same as it is here.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 months ago

Bumping this as a reminder of the giant elephant in the room: The ILLEGAL OCCUPATION of Palestine.

Israel is a brutal terrorist state that's conducting an illegal occupation. This is the core of the conflict.

[-] 4 points by turbocharger (1418) 3 months ago

Thank you.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 months ago

Saying ''ILLEGAL OCCUPATION'' - Or That ''Israel is a brutal terrorist state that's conducting an illegal occupation (& that) This is the core of the conflict.'' .. are the kind of truths that most Americans - even on this OWS forum .. just are not able to compute or register, never mind analyse and digest. So good for you 'sff' for saying that so loud and clearly here, as all we can ever do is try to inform if not educate.

Years and years of deeply one-sided Corporate MSM coverage ; the plethora of Pro-Israeli Think-Tanks {always thinking 'Tanks'?!} ; the undeniable reality of 'The Israel Lobby' [AIPAC, ADL, J-Street etc.etc.+ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States] have now left the majority of Americans with a one sided p-o-v of the 'Israel / Palestine' issues, devoid of any history, context or different views.

Maybe - just maybe, Americans hearing that which you say from other Americans or even from Jewish or Israeli sources will possibly have a little more traction on the popular mass consciousness as I think that - as in all things, change can only come from below and by The 99%. Thanx very much for reviving your excellent forum-post & I refer u to our previous exchange & append in compliment, these 18 links :

fiat lux ; fiat justitia ; fiat pax ...

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I now believe that the real question will increasingly become (if it has not done so already) - Is The Two State Solution Really Still Viable ? The abject reduction of Palestinians into what can only be called 'Bantustans', leads me and I'm sure others, to wonder as to what would happen if Palestinians dropped all ambitions & pretences towards an unviable separate state & simply demanded their full ., civil, legal, human and democratic rights in the land of their and their forefathers' birth .. in a Binational One State !

multum in parvo ...

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Why do you ask that?

Israel should accept international law and pull out of the occupied territories.

I don't think the Palestinians should accept the illegal occupation. The illegal occupation of Palestine should be opposed, not accepted.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I ask the question - "Is The Two State Solution Really Still Viable ?" because I fundamentally believe in the concept of Universal Human Rights - irrespective of colour or creed ; gender or genetics ; race or religion. As you yourself state in reply to bw's fundamental point re. 'simplicity' - "It's not complicated in the sense that we know who the aggressor and occupier is, whose responsibility it is to pull out." - but the truth is not only has Israel failed to pull out - but it still continues to annex, build upon and occupy. The West Bank is not viable as a country as the facts are now on the ground as created by Israel since 1967 and as for Gaza, well I leave it for you and others to consider the following :

We are either for 'Universal Human Rights' or we are not - because any willingness to try to make exceptions makes an utter mockery and hypocrisy of the whole concept as Palestinians and Israelis alike - both continue to 'struggle for freedom'.

ad iudicium ...

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

I support human rights, and I support the Palestinians getting their land back.

The continous occupation is no law of nature, it can be stopped.

The Palestinians want their land back; Israel must accept the 67 borders.

NC supports the two-state solution, btw.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

As we all in our own way 'struggle for freedom', I append for your and others' further consideration :

I accept all your good points and also know about's NC's views - I just don't totally share his ideas on this matter, tho' I respect and revere his views on many subjects. 'Solidaritet' to you Andy and thanx again for your excellent forum-post, which I just reread.

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

We disagree somewhat on this issue, but in most cases we agree. Thanks for all your kind words. Solidarity!

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I don't think we disagree that much and I'm merely musing on 'why not equal rights for all' ? Reaching for an attempt to try to envision new paradigms. Thinking out loud with =======#~~' in my hand, man ~{:-)

I ask you, why couldn’t you reconstitute Israel as a Multiethnic Secular Democracy with completely equal rights for all ? Why not simply erase the Green line, incorporate the West Bank and Gaza, grant full citizenship rights to all persons, and live in peace with non-Jews !

You may say, then Israel would lose its “Jewish character”. I say that it could hardly do so when half the population is Jewish ! Meditate upon this : Why, in this day and age, must you have a 'Jewish State' ? But, you say, the Palestinians will never agree to a single state ! I say that a Multiethnic Secular State is so clearly the most equitable answer in order to move forward and it just comes down then to whether the Palestinian people will accept the name “Israel” for the state they’ve always wanted. I think that they would under the proper circumstances.

But you say, the Palestinians could be in the majority and would impose their will on Jews, controlling education, social policies, government spending, etc. This I'd say, is a specific political disease that affects most countries in the world, but it's most easily prevented by writing a proper constitution for a strictly limited government, the kind of government envisioned by America’s founding fathers maybe but which no longer exists in America. Perhaps you just need an explicit, well-written, libertarian socialist constitution that limits the government to protecting individual rights and property and then allows full and free political association and democratic expression - one that does not allow the majority to force its will on any minority, including the smallest minority - The Individual. You need a constitution that :

  • Completely and eternally separates religion and The Corporate Controlled State - education and state, charity and state, businesses and state, private behaviour and state ; by enhanced democracy and free association in a libertarian socialist construct.

  • Prohibits the government from passing any law beyond those needed to define and protect freedom, property, and the environment and basic universal human and civil rights.

  • Allows all Israelis, Jews and non-Jews, to associate or not associate with whomever they choose, to hire or fire whomever they chose, to educate their children as they chose within the framework of an appreciation of the simple notion of Universal Human Rights.

This 'New Israel' would combine all the best aspects of relatively free and prosperous places but it would go far beyond them to a new kind of freedom and prosperity for the 21rst Century. It could even become a model for all states in our increasingly global society.

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

At this point I think it's important to emphasize two points:

  1. The Palestinians want their land back, and a Palestinian state based on the 67-borders.

  2. The Palestinians have a right to their land back, and a Palestinian state based on the 67-borders.

With these two points in mind, is it really that hard to take a stand on this issue?

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I concur with the idea of a "state based on the 67-borders", as does Hamas - according to the 'Jerusalem Post' :

Thus again - "as you yourself state in reply to bw's fundamental point on this thread, re. 'simplicity' - "It's not complicated in the sense that we know who the aggressor and occupier is, whose responsibility it is to pull out." - but the truth is not only has Israel failed to pull out - but it still continues to annex, build upon and occupy. The West Bank is not viable as a country as the facts are now on the ground as created by Israel" - and neither is Gaza.

I agree with your two points and have taken my stand with you - it's just that Israeli Extreme Right-Wing Uber-Nationalism & Militarism is making this scenario evermore impossible. What further compromises can one side or the other make here ? Who holds all the cards but still can not close the game ? How long can this go on for without recourse to new paradigms ?

ad iudicium ...

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

This "Israeli Extreme Right-Wing Uber-Nationalism & Militarism" can be stopped if people rise up and demand it. It's especially important that the US and Israeli population do just that.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

You have a good heart and I agree with much of what you say (as indeed does Khalid Mashaal re. 1967 Borders, as evidenced above) but the facts on the ground as defined solely by Israel, increasingly make a 'Two State Solution' more and more unlikely, tending towards 'impossible' :

This is why I say that "I now believe that the real question will increasingly become (if it has not done so already) - Is The Two State Solution Really Still Viable?" as South Africa continually comes to my mind.

fiat lux, fiat pax, fiat justitia ...

[-] -2 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

what makes you think arabs have a right to the 67 borders? they set out to obliterate israel. perhaps you have forgotten but israeli's have not.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

I'm sorry, but you're making no sense. The 67 border two state solution shouldn't be controvercial; it's also the solution that's supported by the vast majority of Palestinians.

[-] -2 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

i make perfect sense.

[-] -3 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

that all sounds well and good except that you do realize you are dealing with muslim fanatics don't you? you think these people can be reasoned with? obviously you are not paying attention to what is going on in the rest of the world. muslims can't even get along with themselves let alone other people. you think they can be integrated into a secular democracy?

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (3158) 1 year ago

What an outrageous statement! I have read some of your other good posts and comments on this forum but your comment above is so biased, prejudiced and pig-ignorant, as to be beyond the pale. Are all muslims 'fanatics'? Are there Christian, Jewish, Hindu or even Buddhist 'fanatics'?

Millions of muslims live integrated into 'secular democracies', including our own pseudo-democracy, but your bias won't let you see or accept that, right? Have you ever met, spoken to or socially interacted with any muslims? Are you lumping together and claiming overarching knowledge of 1.5 Billion people? Have you become poisoned by mideast's lunatic comments on this thread? Sad and disappointing!

[-] 0 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

oh did i offend your liberal sensibilities with reality, my bad. obviously there are liberal and secular muslims but they make up a minority of the population. yes hamas and islamic jihad are fanatics. sorry reality offends you. and yes i have known quite a few who i would call my friends. so the riots in europe were cause they were integrating so well okay got it.

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3158) 1 year ago

'OccupyWallStreet - The revolution continues worldwide!' - is what it says, qm - reflect upon it, please.

People all over the world want the same thing for themselves and their children - peace, safety, prospects & happiness. Their supernatural beliefs are here and there and too often these are an impediment to social progress. Majority muslim countries need the same things we do, so meditate on ... 'worldwide'!

Rightwing chauvinism, religious or nationalistic is the problem, so stop pushing hate and fear here qm.

Never Give Up On Love! Occupy Your Heart!! and http://occupywallst.org/article/right-here-all-over/

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

sorry i like reality. not fairy tales.

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3158) 1 year ago

Global Occupation By Bankers is a reality ... you like that too? Reality 'ain't all that' as my kids say, so Keep Occupying Your Imagination! Never Give Up Trying To Imagine A Better Tomorrow - for everyone :)

[+] -4 points by RedDragon (-161) 1 year ago

I have, many times. I really don't like them, especially the Pakistanis. And they don't like us. Their most frequent complaint here in the US is that we afford our women too much freedom; women, they believe, belong in the home. Period. I'm not big on 5%ers, either.

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3158) 1 year ago

Don't like who? Which 'them'? Pakistanis? How do you know they don't like us? If so, anything to do with us bombing them and invading other countries? http://occupywallst.org/article/right-here-all-over/

Never Give Up Trying To Find Your Brain and Heart!! Occupy Love!

[-] 1 points by RedDragon (-161) 1 year ago

Nah, this was long before that. We have a lot of Pakistani immigrants. And again, what they find most disturbing is the freedom we permit women. The longer they stay, the more they see of immorality, and the less they like us. I don't like them, either.

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3158) 1 year ago

Please try the video on the link. It is from the the top right hand of the site front page - http://occupywallst.org/ - Occupy Your Heart & the Real Issues! Peace.

[-] 1 points by RedDragon (-161) 1 year ago

I don't think you're going to have much luck re-acculturating me; without getting totally offensive - albeit true - I really don't like Pakistanis.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

I think that because people have been taught to consider themselves Jews or Palestinians first, or defined as any other group, instead of as human beings, this distorted vision is what allows and justifies the most heinous crimes to be committed in the name of their group.

Borders may be moved, walls erected, and people relocated, but as long as our sense of justice is limited to a person's nationality instead of their humanity, conflict will continue.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I really think that your comment and Shule's comment below have real value and I appreciate your reply. Further, I draw your attention to the two items copied to 'sff80' above and append a short article from an arguably unlikely source :

From the article :

  • "Hillary Clinton, who cut off her Asian tour to fly to Israel and Egypt, was a bystander in brokering the truce. She is not even allowed to talk to Hamas. For we have designated Hamas a terrorist organization. Astonishing. What was Joe Stalin when Harry Truman talked with him at Potsdam? What was Nikita Khrushchev when Ike invited the “Butcher of Budapest” to Camp David? What was Chairman Mao when Richard Nixon toasted him in Beijing in 1972? We tie our own hands and wonder why we cannot succeed."

fiat lux, fiat pax, fiat justitia ...

[-] -1 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

The one state solution worked very well in the Arab world.
How many Jewish temples or Christian churches are in Yemen or Saudi Arabia?
When Israel was formed in 1948, 600,000 Jews were forced out - to create a "unified" state.


May 2009:
hristian families have long been complaining of intimidation and land theft by Muslims, especially those working for the Palestinian Authority.

Many Christians in Bethlehem and the nearby [Christian] towns of Bet Sahour and Bet Jalla have repeatedly complained that Muslims have been seizing their lands either by force or through forged documents.

In recent years, not only has the number of Christians continued to dwindle, but Bethlehem and its surroundings also became hotbeds for Hamas and Islamic Jihad supporters and members.

Moreover, several Christian women living in these areas have complained about verbal and sexual assaults by Muslim men.

Over the past few years, a number of Christian businessmen told me that they were forced to shut down their businesses because they could no longer afford to pay "protection" money to local Muslim gangs.

While it is true that the Palestinian Authority does not have an official policy of persecution against Christians, it is also true that this authority has not done enough to provide the Christian population with a sense of security and stability.

In addition, Christians continue to complain about discrimination when it comes to employment in the public sector. Since the establishment of the Palestinian Authority 15 years ago, for example, not a single Christian was ever appointed to a senior security post. Although Bethlehem has a Christian mayor, the governor, who is more senior than him, remains a Muslim.

As a Muslim journalist, I am always disgusted and ashamed when I hear from Christians living in the West Bank and Jerusalem about the challenges, threats and assaults that many of them have long been facing.

The reason why I feel like this is because those behind the assaults and threats are almost always Muslims.

For decades, the delicate and complicated issue of relations between Muslims and Christians in the Holy Land was treated by Palestinians as a taboo. Most Palestinians chose to live in denial, ignoring the fact that relations between the Muslim majority and the tiny Christian minority [about 10%] have been witnessing a setback, particularly over the past 15 years.

On the eve of Pope Benedict XVI's visit to the Holy Land, a Christian merchant told me jokingly: "The next time a pope comes to visit the Holy Land, he will have to bring his own priest with him pray in a church because most Christians would have left by then."

Indeed, the number of Christians leaving Bethlehem and other towns and cities appears to be on the rise, according to representatives of the Christian community in Jerusalem.

Today, Christians in Bethlehem constitute less than 15% of the population. Five or six decades ago, the Christians living in the birthplace of Jesus made up more than 70% of the population.

True, Israel's security measures in the West Bank have made living conditions more difficult for all Palestinians, Christians and Muslims alike. But to say that these measures are the main and sole reason for the Christian exodus from the Holy Land is misleading.

If the security fence and the occupation were the main reason, the Palestinian territories should by have been empty of both Muslims and Christians. These measures, after all, do not distinguish between Christians and Muslims.

On the other hand, it is also incorrect to assume that the Christians are leaving only because they are afraid of their Muslim neighbors. Christians are leaving because of the poor economy, and because they no longer feel secure in their homes. But they are also leaving because most of them, if not all, find it easier to merge into Christian-dominated societies in the US, Canada, EU and Latin America, where many of them already have relatives and friends.

In fact, Christians began leaving the Holy Land long before Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967. But the number of those moving to the US and Canada has sharply increased ever since the Palestinian Authority took control over Bethlehem and other Palestinian villages and cities. When the second intifada erupted in September 2000, Christian leaders said they were "terrified" by the large number of Christians who were leaving the country.

Ironically, leaders of the Palestinian Christians are also to blame for the ongoing plight of their people because they refuse to see the reality as it is. And the reality is that many Christians feel insecure and intimidated because of what we Muslims are doing to them and not only because of the bad economy.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Your abject ignorance, specious twaddle and blatant bigotry will not go unnoticed or unchallenged by me and you really should have grasped this "fact" by now.

Above, you only wrote three paltry lines before you simply copy/pasted an unlinked, unsourced and unreferenced piece from we know not where.

You wish to utterly ignore the "fact" that Jewish people lived throughout the Muslim world for many, many centuries, in relative peace, prosperity and safety. Indeed, there were synagogues across the contiguous Muslim regions, from Casablanca to Karachi and Kabul.

You wish to ignore the "fact" that nothing like what was visited upon European Jewry, intermittently for over a thousand years, from Russia to England - culminating in the monstrous industrial slaughter of fellow human beings by the Nazis, ever happened to Jews in the Muslim world.

You wish to twist the organised Aliyah ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah ) which happened in haste after 1948 and that too inter alia, shows you 'bensdad', for what you are - as a nationalist, chauvinist, vulgar propagandist and a hysterical shill for Israel who even wants to deny the very existence of the Palestinian People in your own 'land without a people for a people without a land' delusions.

Now let's see if you can get your hot and empty head around the words of a Christian Palestinian, who you may have heard about, regarding recent events :

Consider my reply comment here 'bd', as extremely mild in comparison to what will be forthcoming in the face of your utterly one-sided propaganda in future.

multum in parvo ...

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21384) 1 year ago

Thanks, sff, for laying it all out there so succinctly. It's really not as complicated as everyone would like to make it.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Thanks.

It's not complicated in the sense that we know who the aggressor and occupier is, whose responsibility it is to pull out. We also know how this conflict should be solved.

It's very important that the U.S population and the Israeli population organize big opposition to the foreign policies conducted by their governments. They can play a huge role in stopping this conflict, which has destroyed so many lives on both sides.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Do you actually believe that if a two state solution was implemented, that rockets would cease to be fired over the border at Israel? One was in effect in 1948 and was attacked by 4 Arab armies. Israel took part of the Palestinian land. But instead of a Palestinian state being created with the remainder, Jordan took control of the West bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of Gaza. Weren't Egypt and Jordan occupying forces just as much as Israel was then?

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

If Israel withdrew and accepted the 67 borders, the number of rockets launched would decrease enormously. As in any other areas in the world, we'd of course never have a 100% guarantee of 0 rockets fired into Israel.

What matters now are current events. Israel is now occupying Palestine. The occupation must end.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

why can't it be guaranteed? every nation in the world guarantees these kind of basic conditions.

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

When an Arab government occupies an Arab land, nobody complains. When a Jewish government occupies an Arab land, everyone complains.

The problem isn't occupation, it's racial hatred.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

An illegal occupation is unacceptable no matter who conducts it. The amount of complaining that's done in regards to other conflicts doesn't change the fact that Israel is conducting an illegal occupation of Palestine, and therefore is obligated to pull out.

Just like most other critics of Israeli occupation, I despise antisemitism.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

how many rockets in the past month ?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Too many.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

I heard 2 myself that idiots launched

how many isreali rockets ?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Not sure what you mean?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

I've only heard about 2 rocket attacks against israel cities recently like the past month

I head isreal bombed like a thousand targets or something like that

don't know

no longer care to look

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

So what you're saying is that you are unaware of the numerous of Israeli airstrikes on Gaza last week?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

No, couldn't decipher his question, "how many rockets in the past month ?"

His reply "I heard 2 myself that idiots launched" when hundreds were fired made no sense.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

What are you talking about?

[-] 1 points by grapes (3261) 1 year ago

Perhaps what he meant was that only two really caused significant damage or casualties even though hundreds were fired. Rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel went on for a long time but we seldom heard of them here in the U.S., probably because there were no casualties.

Unfortunately, if you mentioned Middle East and only property damage, people here would have no interest whatsoever. It would not be news -- it would be olds, real olds. We have become rather jaded and fatigued from hearing of the incessant never-ending violence from the Middle East and beyond.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

You're probably right.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

of course you do know that the occupation of gaza ended in 2005 right??? of course you did.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Yes.

[-] -2 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

then why do you keep calling it an occupation?

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Because there is an occupation of Palestine.

[-] 1 points by bizworldusa (1) 1 year ago

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[Removed]

[-] 1 points by grapes (3261) 1 year ago

Israel's attack on the communications out of Gaza was deplorable -- the World has the right to know. The basis for peace is for Israel to return largely (subject to negotiated exchanges of territories) to its pre-six-days-war (1967) boundaries. Gaza's conditions need to be improved so Israel's de facto blockade of Gaza must end.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Exactly right!

[-] 4 points by grapes (3261) 1 year ago

Peace demands active work from all sides. Rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel and the smuggling of arms (such as longer-range rockets) into Gaza also need to stop.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

It takes both sides to achieve peace, sure.

I don't support killing civilians with rockets either. That's unacceptable. But like I pointed out in the article: the Palestinians have, according to international law, the right to defend themselves, including with the use of arms.

[-] 2 points by grapes (3261) 1 year ago

The right is always there implicitly, the only difference being the opinions of the World and any subsequent repercussions. Killing civilians are unacceptable, whether Palestinians or Israelis or anyone else. Disruptions of civilian lives also need to be minimized, whether they come from airstrike/rocket-attack sirens, blockade, or frisking. A state of intimidation and fear is very bad for building peace so it must be eliminated through concrete and gradual steps comfortable for all sides.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Comfortable or not, Israel has the main responsibility. They are the ones conducting an illegal occupation; it is their responsibility to pull out.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3261) 1 year ago

Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip but that did not prevent the rocket attacks from it. It will take some doing to convince Israel that a "solution" like that can work again. Israel was apparently planning to build more in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, rubbing the nose of Obama which had already been flattened a bit.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

The people in Gaza are suffering from the blockade. Second, Gaza is part of Palestine.

Again, Israel has the main responsibility. They are the ones conducting an illegal occupation; it is their responsibility to pull out.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3261) 1 year ago

Israel is seeking some Palestinian authority that can truly sustain durable peace. The election of Hamas to power in Gaza caused Israel to tighten the blockade because Hamas' avowed goal was to drive Israel out to the sea. Let us be realistic and clear about that -- Israel will not disappear into the sea so Hamas' stance must change for peace to come. I think that many sides are already pretty weary of the many decades of wars, casualties, deprivations, and sorrows. We cannot erase history but the Palestinians and the Israelis can forgive but not forget, can they not?

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

The vast majority of Palestinians support the 67-borders. People talking about "the destruction of Israel" and other such nonsense is a small minority.

What a few extremists might have said, does not change the fact that Israel has to stop their illegal activities.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3261) 1 year ago

You are absolutely correct. We in the U.S. suffer from the same problem with some of our own people. Pre-election kabuki seems to plague Israel as the pushing ahead of settlement of occupied territories recently and the second intifada attest. Ariel Sharon was warned not to visit the Temple Mount before the election but he did it anyway so boom, we got the second intifada, not again!

One way to untie the Palestinian-Israeli knot is not to pull it any tighter and start loosening up the loops, perhaps putting in safeguards along the way to prevent "spontaneous" tightening of the loops.

[-] 0 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

what occupation? the blockade is to prevent arms.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

The occupation of Palestine.

[-] -3 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

there is no palestine.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

What!?

[-] -3 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

there is no palestine. there never has been. most likely there never will be.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Could you elaborate?

[-] -2 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

who was the head of the so called palestinians before arafat?

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

"the so called palestinians"..?

[-] -3 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

you didnt answer my question

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

I can't answer a question that I don't understand. You have to explain what you mean by "so called Palestinians"

If you could also explain what you're trying to get at with the question, that would be nice too.

[-] -2 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

what he is saying is you don't know enough history on the region to give an opinion worth having.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

What do you mean? What are referring to?

[-] -2 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

i'll make it simple, who was the head of the palestinian people before arafat?

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Oh, so now they're not "so called" anymore? What did you mean by "so-called palestinians", janus?

Oh, and if you have a point or an argument, then make it and quit playing games.

[-] -2 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

you're avoiding my question, ANSWER the question, ............who was the leader of the palestinian people before arafat? if you could answer the question you would have .

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

No, you're the coward who don't present any arguments or points.

If you have a point, then make it!

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by town (-374) 1 year ago

Why wouldn't you answer a simple question about Arafat?

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

"you're the game player, i modified the question , which you wont/cant answer. coward."

I'm just not playing games with you, that's all.

If you have a point or an argument, then make it and quit playing games!

And you didn't answer what you meant by "so called palestinians".

[-] -2 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

www.targetofopportunity.co/palestinian_truth.htm NOW, coward,anwser the question, who was the leader of the palestinians before arafat?

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Stop playing games. Make your point (if you have any).

[-] -2 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

you're the game player, i modified the question , which you wont/cant answer. coward.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

Gand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini. "The Arab Nazi" Check it out him and his buddy Hitler. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1987-004-09A,_Amin_al_Husseini_und_Adolf_Hitler.jpg

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

I heard there were to Rockets that ht isreal cities

how many were there?

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Yeah, I think it was something like that. And several hundreds of Israeli air strikes.

[-] -1 points by dreamingforward (394) from Tacoma, WA 1 year ago

I think everyone is just totally confused because evil as taken root both in occupy and elsewhere. If you want to understand some of the complexities see my answers on Quora.com.

[-] -1 points by UnFriendlyObserver (-32) 1 year ago

If there is one person amongst the Palestinian nation or the entire Arab world that feels "Heart Felt Sorrow" for the pain and suffering inflicted upon the Jewish Nation-Israel..

" Please let that person step forward."

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

What's your point with this?

[-] -1 points by gmxusa (274) 1 year ago

The “Israel has a right to exist” argument is pure garbage. I’ve got more right to Buckingham Palace than a bunch of Khazars have to Palestine. But what else can they say? They know they’re liars and thieves and that they’re running out of excuses. Similarly with the “Israel has a right to defend itself” crap. Israel has not more “right to defend itself” than a punk with a gun has to “defend himself” while robbing a convenience store. Their hysterical screaming and scheming happens because THEY are the hysterical ones.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

"The “Israel has a right to exist” argument is pure garbage"

That one you're going to have to explain more thoroughly.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

There is irrefutable proof that the Jews were in Israel during the first century A.D. The arch of Titus contains a relief clearly showing the menorah and other temple articles being carried away by Titus in 70 A.D. Even the Atheists don't contest this fact of history.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blxtn_jerusalem-titus03.htm

[-] -1 points by town (-374) 1 year ago

khazars? jewish people have been in israel for over 3000 years.2000 yrs ago it was the kingdom of israel.the western wall of the great temple built ( almost 2000 yrs ago) by king solomon still remains.

[-] -2 points by lignite (-303) 1 year ago

Make a parking lot out of the Middle East but spare Israel

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

What are your real opinions on the Israel/Palestine conflict? What do you think about the forum post?

[-] -3 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

GAZA: part 1 of 2
In our recent elections, it would be very hard to come up with a more
significant reason for the republican losses than the fact that
the republicans told the truth about themselves.
Why can’t we also learn the truth from what the “Palestinian people”
say about the “Palestinian people” ?

On March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with
Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein.


”The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a “Palestinian state” is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.
Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a “Palestinian people”, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

“For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a “Palestinian”, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem.”


Truth does not change. Truth is truth.
If something was true 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it is still true today.
And the truth is that only 30 years ago, there was very little confusion on this issue of Palestine.
You might remember the late Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir making virtually the same statement: “There is no such thing as a Palestinian people.” The statement has been a source of ridicule and derision by Arab propagandists ever since. They love to talk about Golda Meir’s “racism and bigotry and hate mongering.” They love to suggest she was in historical denial. They love to say her statement is patently false – an intentional lie, a strategic deception –
but is source from a PLO leader!

What they don’t like to talk about, however, are the very similar statements made by Yasser Arafat and his inner circle of political leadership years after Meir had told the truth –
that there is no distinct Palestinian cultural or national identity.


Pretty clear, isn’t it? It is even more specific than Golda Meir’s statement. And it is hardly the only such statement of its kind. Arafat himself made a very definitive and unequivocal statement along these lines as late as 1993.
It demonstrates conclusively that the Palestinian nationhood argument is the real strategic deception – one geared to set up the destruction of Israel.


On the same day Arafat ( who was born in CAIRO EGYPT ) signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, Arafat stated:
“Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of “Palestine”, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.”


No matter how many people delude themselves that the aspirations for Palestinian statehood are genuine and the key to peace in the Middle East, they are still deceiving themselves. In the history of the world, Palestine has never existed as a nation. The region known as “Palestine” was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I.
The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their ancestral homeland. In recent decades, parts have been “occupied” by Egypt and Israel. It was never ruled by Arabs as a separate nation.
Why now has it become such a critical priority?
The answer is because of a massive deception campaign and relentless terrorism over 40 years.
Golda Meir was telling the truth. Her statement is validated by the truth of history and by the candid, but not widely circulated, pronouncements of Arafat and his lieutenants.
Israel and the West must not surrender to terrorism by granting the killers just what they want – a public relations triumph and a strategic victory. It’s not too late to say no to terrorism. It’s not too late to say no to another Arab terror state to launch attacks at the only Jewish state. It’s not too late to tell the truth about Palestine.
……………………………………………. by Joseph Farah


Are you afraid to believe Farah & Muhsein & Arafat ?

WATCH WITH YOUR OWN EYES
Are there any historical errors in these clips ? IN THESE CLIPS


PALESTINIAN PEOPLE 3.29 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_818090&feature=iv&src_vid=HRA0NKQ0k6E&v=9jOW9EzMiWc


PALESTINE & THE QURAN 8.29 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU9CauJP4Pg


JEWS & MUSLIMS & NAZIS [ ANTI-SEMITISM = ANTI-ISRAEL ] 5.59 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gzyeo1Z1I4&NR=1&feature=endscreen


THE CARTOONS 4.20 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrq76I1M3CM&NR=1&feature=endscreen


CELEBRATING 9/11 6.02 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5BtQgTGOI4&feature=endscreen&NR=1


A FEW OF THE CRIMES OF ISLAM – “THE RELIGION OF PEACE” ▬► we can’t stop this if we don’t acknowledge this & understand this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J_cqtdH26c&NR=1&feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2kFzGyKgpA&feature=endscreen&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQpj2bFM7s0&NR=1&feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rgSH0h45Eo&NR=1&feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOIbgd5qcrg&NR=1&feature=endscreen


THE HISTORY OF THE MIDDLE EAST IN 11 MINUTES 11.37▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZY8m0cm1oY&feature=endscreen&NR=1


WHAT IS THE WEST BANK 6.17 ▬► http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq6tDmLNPjU&feature=endscreen&NR=1


THE PASLESTINIAN CONFLICT 4.20 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TI5Mwyhzhg


THE BITTER TRUTH 8.34 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MjUcIQjb1U


BEAT WOMEN 2.15 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHwATEWqslw&NR=1&feature=endscreen


ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE [ INTELLIGENCE SQUARED DEBATE ] at NYU: debate with two advocates on each side 1.46.36 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh34Xsq7D_A


ISLAM: WHAT THE WEST NEEDS TO KNOW 1.38.40 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krvCQbzPKiI&feature=endscreen&NR=1


PAT CONDELL: ISLAMIC LAW & CRIME & RAPE & QURAN 6.11 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoxVkGHzI0&feature=endscreen&NR=1


PAT CONDELL: ANTI-SEMITISM & HATE CRIMES IN EUROPE 6.10 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIesXORjBps&feature=endscreen&NR=1


PAT CONDELL: “PALESTINIAN” HISTORY & HATRED & PEACE?!?! 5.15 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1N1zhUm84w&NR=1&feature=endscreen


All Israelis are not good. All Israelis are not bad.
All Arabs are not good. All Arabs are not bad.
All Jews are not good. All Jews are not bad.
All Muslims are not good. All Muslims are not bad.

But, sadly, numbers are numbers
Since 1948, Israel has killed 35,000 Arabs/Muslims
Since 1948, Arabs/Muslims have killed 11,000,000 Arabs/Muslims

I do not hate Arabs or Palestinians – but we cannot hope to solve the middle east problem unless we understand what these people believe. And sadly, it will be as easy as ending the generations of anti-minority - homophobic - anti-woman beliefs so skillfully taught by parents and religions in the confederate states for generations.

This next video does not directly relate to Gaza – but you need to know -
it was made by an American Muslim – about jihad & sharia law Jihad: The history of violent radical Islam 1400 years
This is not an Israel issue just since 1948 - or even an Arab issue
Mumbai - WTC - Sudan - England - Georgia - Beslan, Russia - Times Square - Shoe bomber - Lockerbee - Olympics
5000 Islamic honor killings per year + homosexuals murdered
American Wahabi Muslim school text books [ from Saudi Arabia] advocate murder


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrUpG_RlztE&feature=endscreen&NR=1


[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

You're still posting this text?

All these things you mention here, whether they're true or not, don't change the fact that Israel is today conducting an ILLEGAL occupation of Palestine, and has the obligation to pull out - and this is what the post you now commented on was about.

[-] -3 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

and how do you define ILLEGAL? Where is that LAW?
And can you find a single "fact" not true?

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

The whole international community and the United Nations (with a few exceptions) regard the occupation as illegal.

Are you indicating that the occupation is legal? What do you base that on?

[-] -2 points by town (-374) 1 year ago

The UN has Syria on its human rights council, the same Syria that murders tens of thousands of its own people. The UN is worthless.

[-] -3 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

I am indicating that when all else fails, try re-defining words.
1984 taught you a lot. Or did you learn it from Karl Rove.

Most republiclans believe or believed Obama is not an American: After years of Fox News and its occasional guests promoting the theories as a legitimate topic of discussion, a poll by MIT professor Adam Berinsky found more Republicans in September 2012 who believed that the president is not a citizen than during the months before the 2011 release of his long-form birth certificate. In all, Berinsky found that 73 percent of Republicans said they either don’t believe Obama is an American or they’re just not sure, up from 70 percent in April 2011.
The majority of Mormons believe Jesus was in America .
There are a lot of crazy people out there

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

What!?

[-] -2 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

illegal means forbidden by law
when was that law passed by who?
Did you find ANY false claims in ANY of the videos?
OR
Is it best to hide the truth?

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

I don't think you understand. The occupation is illegal according to international law. The occupation is illegal; the entire world and the UN (except Israel and USA of course) condemns the occupation.

I haven't watched any of the links in you text. None of them - true or untrue - change the fact that Israel is illegaly occupying Palestine.

Again: Are you indicating that the occupation is legal? What do you base that on?

[-] -3 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

I am not INDICATING anything. I am trying to define "illegal"
words are not defined by majority rule - except in 1984
"non-American" would define Obama if the majority of Rs could define the truth.
I would bet there are a few errors - but unless we UNDERSTAND what is going on here, the problem will not be solved.
In the 1850's the majority of southerners believed that one human could own another. Or do you disagree with that history too?


why are people afraid to watch any of the videos?
do you think that you may find some unpleasant truths?
if they are BS, surely the proof is easy to find.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

"I am not INDICATING anything." I am trying to define "illegal""

Do you agree that the occupation is illegal?

"words are not defined by majority rule"

Why do you bring that up?

"why are people afraid to watch any of the videos?"

What makes you think that anyone's afraid?

"do you think that you may find some unpleasant truths? if they are BS, surely the proof is easy to find."

There are lots of videos on youtube that have unpleasant truths and which contain garbage that's easily disproved. These videos - yours incuded - don't change the things I mentioned in the article.

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3158) 1 year ago

I have watched your 'BS', as you well know and your desperate shilling has nothing to do with 'truth' and everything to do with bias and fear. No 'proof' can untwist the twisted mind! Never Give Up Trying To Occupy Your Heart!

[-] -2 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

In stead of attacking me, can you cite just three claims in the videos that you can prove are false - do you have the courage to convince me with truth?

Would you consider Christopher Hitchens reliable?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-spKm13v6c

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21384) 1 year ago

Amnesty International's report on the Israeli Occupation of Palestine:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2012

[-] 2 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

I read this - it says nothing about the PLO saying "palestinian people do not exist" or Hamas mandate to destroy Israel or Hamas hiding rockets in civilian areas or how many Israelis are in Gaza or how many rockets Hamas has launched at Israel or why the PLO rejected every offer or how many Arabs have been killed by Arabs or how many fatwas have been issued or how many people have been stoned or how many hands & feet have been cut off etc etc etc


And - no - I never said Israel was faultless.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21384) 1 year ago

Progress.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by GenerationOfPeace (-15) 1 year ago

Hell ya there are man! That's why we have to stand up and be the Generation Of Peace! Those Rs are crazy man..

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

There were no "nations" over there until we carved it all up after WWII.

Gnommy has a nice scan of an old encyclopedia clearly stating that area as Palestine, and TransJordan to the north.

You zionists are all the same. Power hungry mongrels running rampant.

[-] -1 points by town (-374) 1 year ago

Gotta love the islam , aka " the religion of peace".

[-] -3 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

GAZA: part 2 of 2
A few more clips that I believe show the truth.
I would be interested to see any evidence of factual errors in these clips.
Clips about the poor conditions in Gaza or military actions by Israel do not disprove Arafat’s statements or thousands of attacks on Israeli civilians by bus bombs or rockets. There MUST be at least one or two errors in the hundreds of historical facts posted here. Can you find them?

Harry Truman immediately approved the state of Israel –
did he hate Arabs because so many Arabs fought against the Allies - for Hitler?
I do not know.
Jimmy Carter & Bill Clinton pushed the PLO and the PA to sign a deal –
did they hate Arabs?

I do not hate Arabs or Palestinians – but we cannot hope to solve the middle east problem unless we understand what these people believe.
I believe that paying a parent to send their child to their deaths to kill people
[ as in Mumbai ] is nothing less than inhuman.
Not the bomber,
not the parents,
but the paymaster & the Imam.
Maybe you disagree?


Have you read the Quran? I have read 20%-25% in at least three translations.
Do you believe in fatwas? Does Ayaan Hirsi Ali hate Islam? Does Salmon Rushdie?
Have you ever heard radical Imams & Muslims spewing hate and violence –
IN ENGLISH?
Listen – if you dare - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njRKaX0ORuI
Do you know what taqiyya is?

IMAM CHOUDARY TELLS THE TRUTH – MUSLIM TERRORISM 4.00 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TqPK5oYZBk&feature=endscreen&NR=1

FROM 60 MINUTES – GAZA MOVIE FRAUD 18.00 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkfKAz8l37U&NR=1&feature=endscreen

SUBMISSION: THE MOVIE VAN GOUGH WAS _MURDERED FOR 10.31 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdvsFSYRgd4

CNN: GOD’S WARRIORS – THE MURDER OF THEO VAN GOUGH 5.10 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O28opIDKwYk

ISLAM A RELIGION OF PEACE? A BRAVE MUSLIM & BILL MAHR 7.29 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ZEo7voCEM&feature=endscreen&NR=1

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE “WEST BANK” IS? 6.17 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYxLWUKwWo&NR=1&feature=fvwp

THE SON OF HAMAS LEADER TELLS THE TRUTH 5.00 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHbCGC6amdk&NR=1&feature=endscreen

ISRAEL IS AN “APARTHEID” STATE 7.24 ▬►
Most Arab states are not apartheid – they threw out the Jews
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eupkfyd1ulc&NR=1&feature=endscreen

ROCKETS 21.16 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6nLrUg_bzs

ISRAEL GEOGRAPHY & HISTORY 6.29 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTDPRtprKJQ&NR=1&feature=endscreen

PAT CONDELL: SHARIA LAW & ISLAM IN BRITAIN 5.01 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dQVUiEjpw8&feature=endscreen&NR=1

PAT CONDELL: WHO HATES WHO? WHO MURDERS WHO? 6.05 ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqSY285BqQg

The truth is the truth – not bigotry or hatred.
Some people do evil. For money. For power. For religion.

American soldiers gave smallpox infected blankets to native Americans.
Bush’s cronies approved torture. Southern traitors started a war against America & their descendents celebrate it!
BP killed oil rig workers.
Spanish catholics burned Spanish Jews.
The truth is the truth – not bigotry or hatred.
Some people do evil. For money. For power. For religion.



DO YOU HAVE THE COURAGE TO LEARN THE TRUTH?
Pre 1948 - How did the nation of Israel get it's land?

"At the end of World War I, some of “Palestine's” land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. About 80% of the resident Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins.
Analyses of land purchases from 1880 to 1948 show that 73% of Jewish plots were purchases from large landowners, not poor Arabs."
-- quoted from The Peel Commission (1937)

"The Arab charge that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when purchased. There was at the time at least of earlier sales little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land. Jews paid more than $20 million (at 1936 rates) to Arab landowners, mostly large estate holders. In 1944, Jews paid between $1000 and $1100 per acre in Palestine, mostly for arid or semi-arid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre
(U.S. Dept. of Agriculture)" --Land Ownership in Palestine, 1880-1948

According to British government statistics,
prior to the establishment of the State of Israel,

8.6% of the land area now known as Israel was owned by Jews;
3.3% by Arabs who remained there;
16.5% by Arabs who left the country.
More than 70% of the land was owned by the British Government.
Under international law, ownership passed to Israel in 1948.
The public lands included most of the Negev Desert --half of Palestine's post-1922 total area
--1948 Survey by British Mandate Government

Further UN estimates put the value of property loses of Jews kicked out of Arab countries after 1948 at 10 times the value of those lost by Arabs.
Most Jews in Israel are from Arab countries, not from Europe.
So the issue of the injustice done TO the Jews of Arab countries BY Arabs is relevant,
as are reparations.
Not all Jews are white New Yorkers. 60% of Jews are not what you might call caucasian. All the way up until 1970 Israel had a policy of repayment or replacement for anyone who could prove his claim. Around 10% of the refugees used this policy, while others refused .

From 1920 to 1948 Jewish organizations accepted partition plans that gave the Jewish state as little as 20% of the current state of Israel. The Arabs refused the deal or any compromise.
From the 1850's to 1948, 90% of the land Jews lived on was purchased at very high prices from Arabs. The rest was uninhabited land and passed from the British government to the Israeli government, under international law. In 1948, any Arab that stayed in Israel became Israeli citizens with full rights to vote and form political parties. Most fled, anticipating that the Arab armies would quickly defeat Israel, and they could return home, without being thought of as traitors. Now whose fault is it for deserting? In 1948 at the creation of the State of Israel, Jews who lived in all of the Arab countries were forced out or harassed. The land lost by Jews who fled was estimated by the UN to be worth ten times that of any property lost by Arabs who fled Israel in 1948. When will the Jews be reimbursed? In 1948 Jordan expanded its borders and stole the West Bank from what was part of Israel before the 1948 war__, a piece that was NEVER inside the Jordan borders. In 1967, Israel took it back as a buffer from the combined half a dozen Arab armies that were poised to attack the lone Jewish state. It was expected that Arab states would make peace and Israel would return the land within a few months. The Arab states refused to negotiate with Israel. ……………………………………1994 by David Carasso.


▬►Why didn’t the PLO / PA accept any of the MANY two state solutions proposed by Israel & America and backed by many Arab leaders in the last few decades?
▬►If the Arab nations were interested in peace or simply aiding their brethren ,
they would support the West Bank as part of Jordan AND Gaza as part of Egypt
( as it was occupied by Egypt 1948-1967 ).
▬►And they would be using their oil billions to send food to Gaza in stead of guns & rockets.
▬►If the Gazan militants were really fighting for the Gazan people,
they would not launch their rockets from civilian neighborhoods.
▬►Yes - Gaza is occupied - by Hamas and their terrorist militants


MY SOLUTION:
Each of the Arab oil giants will deliver a half million dollars
worth of food to Israel every day for a year for Israel to deliver to Gaza.
AND ISRAEL WILL ALSO CONTRIBUTE
a half million dollars worth of food every day to give to Gaza.


Let Hamas and Abbas follow Arafat and to try to turn that down! Despite numerous appeals by Israel to negotiate, Abbas refuses.
Here are a few Abbas quotes:

"A Jewish state, what is that supposed to mean? You can call yourselves as you like, but I don't accept it and I say so publicly."(27 April 2009)
"We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it." (25 December 2010)
"It - the Arab rejection of the 1947 UN Partition Plan to divide Palestine into an Arab state and a Jewish state - was our mistake. It was an Arab mistake as a whole."


Also- I believe in a three state solution: Israel + Gaza + West Bank


How would you deal with a geo-political adversary who worships a book:
Quran: 2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out,
for persecution is worse than slaughter…..Such is the reward of disbelievers. And yes, Jews have the Bible & Christians have the New Testament, but they don’t kill people who burn their books - or draw anti-religious pictures. We cannot ignore these truths.


AGAIN – I ask for the truth –
do not attack me -
if any these facts are false,
do not post opinions,
post the evidence


for example, did the PLO rep lie in 1977?
who was the king or prime minister of t he country "Palestine" in 1900 or 1800?
in WW2, the Arab armies fought against adolph?

[-] 0 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

wow facts!

[-] -2 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

FROM IPT: A ceasefire between Israel and Hamas may have been reached on paper, but evidence already indicates that it is unlikely to hold. A top Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader has already warned that the ceasefire would be short and that a "new, more savage round" of fighting with Israel lies ahead. The agreement establishes Egypt as the guarantor of peace between Israel and Hamas even though President Mohammed Morsi and members of his government openly aided and supported Hamas in the conflict. The ceasefire will likely embolden Hamas, which views it as a victory over Israel not a first step to peace. History shows that ceasefires do not deter Hamas from firing rockets into Israel. Further, Iran's admission that it has given improved weapons technology to Hamas serves as a warning of an increased Iranian effort to destabilize Israel. The lies & the truth:

  1. Hamas Will Adhere to a "Ceasefire"
    Hamas accepted a ceasefire with Israel in this latest escalation. However, the Arabic word for truce, "hudna," is perceived differently within Hamas - a hudna involves a temporary lull in the violence that allows Hamas the necessary time to organize and re-arm itself in anticipation of a future conflict with Israel. It is different from a ceasefire in that it is an agreement to halt hostilities for a defined period of time only, not a peace agreement. The late PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat alluded to the Treaty of al-Hudaybiyya while giving a speech in a mosque in Johannesburg, South Africa in 1994, suggesting that ANY peace with Israel would be temporary.
    History has proven that Hamas subscribes to this perspective, and that it uses hudnas as temporary lulls in the fighting prior to renewing hostilities.
    In June 2003, Hamas announced a hudna with Israel, yet it ended violently with a suicide bombing two months later in Jerusalem that killed 22 people and wounded more than 130.
    Likewise, Israel's 2008 incursion into Gaza led to a hudna as well. However, Hamas ended this temporary truce by firing rockets into Israel sporadically since the last "ceasefire," escalating the attacks dramatically in the past month.

  2. Hamas is Interested in Peace:
    Hamas, designated as a terrorist organization by the United States and the European Union, does not distinguish between the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and pre-1967 Israel. To it, all of "Palestine" is occupied. The Hamas charter explicitly calls for the destruction of the Jewish state as its top priority. Any recognition of Israel's right to exist is unacceptable to Hamas. This belief is the root of the conflict. In light of a Nov. 21 bus bombing of in Tel Aviv, Hamas member Ezzat Rishq confirmed that the attack was a "repercussion of the Israeli aggression on the Gaza Strip."

  3. The Problem is Israel's Occupation of Gaza:
    With Israel's unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005, removing every Jewish resident and soldier from the territory, Palestinians were given a chance to fully govern themselves and build their society. However, instead of trying to improve Gaza's standard of living, Hamas remained focused on the destruction of Israel by firing rockets at the Jewish state immediately after taking over Gaza.
    Since Hamas first exerted control in Gaza in 2006, 6,109 rockets have hit Israeli territory. Hamas fully seized power in a bloody Palestinian civil war with the rival Fatah faction in 2007. In response, Israel imposed a blockade on Gaza in an attempt to curb the flow of arms to Hamas. This year alone, 1,822 rockets have hit Israeli territory. From November 10-13, immediately prior to Israel's operation, Hamas fired 121 rockets into Israel. Hamas launched another 1,500 rockets after Israel initiated Operation Pillar of Defense on Nov. 14.
    Israel's blockade is by no means an "occupation" – rather, it is a necessary response to stem Hamas' weapons smuggling into Gaza, actions that threatens Israel's security. This tactic is nothing new:
    The United States blockaded Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962.
    The United Kingdom blockaded the Falkland Islands during its war with Argentina in 1982.
    A 2011 United Nations report concluded that Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip is legal under international law.

  4. Israel Deliberately Targets Civilians: Israel went to extraordinary means to minimize innocent Palestinian casualties in response to the terrorist rocket barrage. Prior to any action, the Israeli military dropped thousands of leaflets in Arabic warning Gaza residents of impending attacks. This effort gave residents time to evacuate the area.
    Collateral damage happens because Hamas intentionally embeds itself in population centers in violation of international law. If Israel deliberately targeted civilians, its military superiority would allow it to inflict far greater casualties. An Israeli pilot actually aborted a strike mission on a rocket launch pad located in a playground because he saw Palestinian children nearby. That rocket ended up being fired at Tel Aviv, causing Israeli children to run for the bomb shelters. Imagine what the United States government would do if the Mexican drug cartels fired thousands of rockets at San Diego, Phoenix, or other cities along the Mexican border from the safety of Mexico.

  5. There is a Moral Equivalence Between Actions by Israel and Hamas:
    Israel strives to minimize civilian casualties.
    Hamas tries to maximize Israeli civilian casualties and strike fear into the population.
    This is self-evident based on the fact that Israel strategically targets Hamas terrorists with accurate, pinpoint airstrikes. Hamas, on the other hand, indiscriminately fires deadly rockets at Israeli cities with the intent of killing or maiming Israeli civilians. Hamas purposefully fires from Palestinian population centers to elicit an Israeli response that occasionally results in civilian casualties that who it can use for strictly propaganda purposes. The terrorist group also uses Palestinians as human shields to protect military targets, which is considered a war crime under international law.

  6. Hamas is a Reliable Source of Information:
    It is in Hamas' interest to inflate Palestinian casualty figures. Throughout the years, Hamas has used fake images, staged funerals and lied about specific casualties to enhance the perception that Israel was committing deliberate massacres. A photo was circulated in the media following the start of the recent conflagration allegedly depicting a Palestinian child who was supposedly killed by Israel. In fact, the child was one of the 30,000 casualties of the Syrian Civil War. Another infamous picture making headlines shows visiting Egyptian Prime Minister Hisham Qandil and Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh embracing a dead Palestinian boy whom they label as a victim of an attack by the Israeli Air Force. However, "experts from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights said they believed that the explosion was caused by an errant Palestinian rocket" that landed within Gaza.

  7. Gaza is Besieged and Starving:
    Israel continues to transfer goods and supplies into the territory to help Palestinian civilians despite the rocket fire from Gaza. In fact, Gaza civilians do not suffer from a scarcity of food or other basic needs. Throughout this recent escalation, the Jewish state has facilitated the transfer of essential food, water, fuel and electricity.
    Israel continues to treat Gazans in Israeli hospitals. I’m sure Hamas would treat Jews in Gazan hospitals – IF there were any Jews left in Gaza.

  8. Egypt Is an Reliable Mediator
    Post-uprising Egypt, which is now ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood, has explicitly thrown its weight behind Hamas and blamed Israel for this latest violence. Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi tweeted on Nov. 16: "Egypt stands as a protective shield for the Arab and Islamic nation" and "O People of Gaza, you are of us and we are of you. We will not abandon you." In the past, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak played a crucial role as a mediator between both sides. Morsi is personally linked to Hamas, which was created as the Palestinian arm of the Muslim Brotherhood.

  9. Turkey is a Constructive Player in the Crisis
    Turkish Islamist Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan recently called Israel a "terrorist state" in response to Israel's defensive actions in Gaza. This comment is ironic, given Turkey's own terrorist insurgency conflict with the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK). In one incident, Turkey was responsible for the death of 35 civilians in an airstrike near a Kurdish village.
    Turkey has also illegally occupied Northern Cyprus since it invaded the island in 1974. In contrast, Israel has no forces stationed in Gaza.
    Furthermore, the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) put Turkey on its list of "countries of particular concern." This action places Turkey among the world's most repressive states such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, and North Korea. In addition, Turkey jails more journalists than any other country in the world, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists, which reported at least 61 Turkish journalists are imprisoned directly because of their work. Under Erdoğan's Islamist government, Turkey has suffered severe setbacks on their religious and media freedom. On Nov 20, Erdoğan declared that Israel is engaging in ethnic cleansing in Gaza, a preposterous accusation coming from a government that refuses to acknowledge its nation's responsibility in the Armenian genocide of 1915 or the millions of Greeks, Assyrians and other minorities who were ethnically cleansed by the Turks after World War I.

  10. This Conflict Has Nothing to Do with Iran
    Iran's fingerprints are all over Hamas' rocket arsenal, including the Fajr-5 long range rockets which were fired at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Iran is Hamas' main benefactor – supplying weapons, providing training, and sending money. Furthermore, Iranian Gen. Mohammad Ali Jafari told Iran's Fars News Agency that it has given Hamas the technology to build its own Fajr-5s.

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