Forum Post: "Tearing Down the System" - Official OWS Consensus on Why We're ALL HERE?
Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 29, 2012, 3:02 a.m. EST by owsleader2038
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Out of this place for a few months and now returning its seems odd that all the old trolls are gone - ok that's good.
But now its largely republican apologists, I think that good liberals have fled, 99% of the people on this forum today are apologist's for the status-quo USA police state, not surprising, given OWS has only two missions. 1.) Re-Elect Obama 2012 2.) Grow the Prison Unions
The goal here was always that the system had to be torn down and destroyed, nothing good can come from a rotten corpse of a country.
The OWS was largely co-opted back in October 2011, by Team Re-Elect Obama-2012, ... but you can see by what's going on in Oakland that troops in the street are NOT following the marching orders of the NYC GA of OWS.
Nobody uses this forum for anything useful. Just saying.
But it is interesting from time to time to remind people that our SYSTEM is not worth saving that it is rotten to the core that both the DEM & PUG party's and all their sock-puppets and talking heads must go.
Post US Dollar collapse we can only hope that an old tired prison colony can re-invent itself.
Yes you don't need to tear down the system, because it will implode, in only a few years nations, like China, Russia, Iran, ... will simply require GOLD in exchange for OIL, once the USA cannot buy OIL with US Dollars ( worthless paper ) the entire PONZI we call the US police state will collapse over night, its coming and quick.
I think Oakland is exactly what the doctor ordered.
Blood must flow to awaken the parasitic TV watching nation. While the folks in NYC fear the cold weather, such a thing doesn't exist out West, so the Revolution out west is a 365/24/7 revolution, not a panzy ass re-elect obama-2012, hibernate til spring when your needed revolution.
Doesn't play well for the CANVAS CREW ( google canvas know your OWS leadership ) team re-elect obama-2012 to be associated with violence.
But pray-tell the USA is the most evil homicidal maniac prison colony in human history, a mercenary army that brings bombs and destruction to the world, there still lie more bombs in Laos that were used in all of WWII.
It doesn't play well but like JFK assassination its all about "chickens coming home to roost", the folks out in Oakland have long lived in a modern prison city, where the cops kill kids daily the people have been mad as hell for years.
A violent nation that kills for MONEY such as the USA only understands violence, its why the LEFT has failed for the past 50 years.
So go ahead NYC team OWS sit on your ass and wait for spring, ... but the folks out west will show you how to run a revolution.
The first order of the day is survival.
Nobody survives a 'civil war', by standing around in the fire.
Once the war is over say, .. 5-10 years the USA will have flushed its own toilet and cleaned up the mess, in humility it will have to borrow from the world to rebuild, and like today's post Nazi Germany the children of tomorrows USA will NEVER AGAIN allow the greedy criminals to control their nation.
But in the short term a 'smart anarchist' will weather out the civil-war far from the USA.
I don't think the system needs to be torn down. It needs substantial change though.
I'm not happy with the actions in Oakland tonight. I'm hoping those were agents provocateurs.
But the people who rule over us with this very system don't want anything to change. If we really want change to happen with people pushing for it, then the system must be reworked. Reworked so that the very people holding society together can actually live decent lives. What is going on in Oakland and in many other places is only natural, people want change and the rulers do not, that creates a conflict. The people are fighting. This fight can be peaceful or it can be violent. In my point of view the police and underdogs of the rulers are trying to ignite madness into the people, to discredit us, to shame us but for now they have not succeeded. We must take the fight to them and fight for what is right. What is happening in these places shows how people feel, humans have emotions too, they are not just calculators or machines they live, occupy Oakland shows to the world that people still live. They will change things, that is what they want but mostly what they need.
The point is that non-violence is not only the ethical stance, it's the practical stance. When you resort to violence you imediately become as morally corrupt as your adversary, and hence there is no reason for civilized people to prefer you over them. If you want reform, you will stay non-violent; if you want revenge you will become violent and give them the excuse to crush you with their superior mechanisms of violence.
If we want a just society we must promote justice even for the 1/100th of the 1%. We must preserve the rule of law over the law of the jungle. "We are a nation of laws, not men." The greed of the few has overturned that principle; we must reinstate it, not abaondon it.
If we do we are playing their game on their terms. That is exactly what they want us to do, and this is why I suspect the people behind the people advocating for violence are the puppets of the 1/100th of the 1%.
Violence has been used time and time again, it has never produced anything lasting for people. So we'll stay peaceful and bring the world not to their knees but to their feet.
That was beautiful, my friend! ""Bring the world not to their knees, but to their feet." When I hear that said, I feel the thrill of hope regenerate!
The problem is OWS is for the status quo as well, you can read here and see that the majority here actually think that Oakland represents OWS consensus.
The fact is OWS a wall-street centric collection of elitists.
Your part of their 99% 'family' so long as you allow them to be your mother and father, ... trouble is most american's will never tolerate this kind of nanny-ism, ...
OWS (NYC-GA) represents only itself and nobody else,
Who is OWS-NYC? Just a bunch of rich brats that saw their parents lose the family fortune in the Madoff Ponzi, and now they want it back.
Who is the father of OWS in Vancouver-BC? Just a Hungarian elitist that thinks he can control the world with SOROS money.
All these folks are wackos.
I think Oakland is exactly what the doctor ordered.
Blood must flow to awaken the parasitic TV watching nation. While the folks in NYC fear the cold weather, such a thing doesn't exist out West, so the Revolution out west is a 365/24/7 revolution, not a panzy ass re-elect obama-2012, hibernate til spring when your needed revolution.
Doesn't play well for the CANVAS CREW ( google canvas know your OWS leadership ) team re-elect obama-2012 to be associated with violence.
But pray-tell the USA is the most evil homicidal maniac prison colony in human history, a mercenary army that brings bombs and destruction to the world, there still lie more bombs in Laos that were used in all of WWII.
It doesn't play well but like JFK assassination its all about "chickens coming home to roost", the folks out in Oakland have long lived in a modern prison city, where the cops kill kids daily the people have been mad as hell for years.
A violent nation that kills for MONEY such as the USA only understands violence, its why the LEFT has failed for the past 50 years.
So go ahead NYC team OWS sit on your ass and wait for spring, ... but the folks out west will show you how to run a revolution.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy.
Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.
Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth.
Through violence you murder the hater,but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate....
Returning violence for violence multiples violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
I agree, but it's hard to know what to do when every effort to assert our right to peaceful assembly is met with tear gas, billy-clubs and rubber bullets.
I think the reason there was such an outcry over the UC Davis pepper-spraying is that the students were so obviously completely non-threatening to the police. When protestors destroy property or engage in violence themselves, the reactions of the police are more likely to be considered justified.
The silent protest as students watched the school chancellor walk to her car, was more powerful than any screaming, flag burning mob could ever be.
Absulutely. But at what point are we asking too much of people? I am in complete agreement with you, but I don't want to be the one on the receiving end either. This issue is becoming very serious.
It is serious. It is because people are getting hurt that those breaking into city hall and burning the flags piss me off. They are increasing the violence level and decreasing the public support level.
Of course the objective didn't make any sense to me either. I'm not interested in securing the right to decide to take over vacant buildings. I don't get it.
I was wondering why they decided to do this at night? It is harder to get good video at night and that makes it less safe for the protestors.
Thank you, LetsGetReal!
Direct action is meant to cause confrontations with the police. It has no other goal(s). You don't need to forcibly take over a public or private space 24/7 if you wish to assert your right to peaceful assembly or peaceful protest.
It's inevitable that some police officers slip up during these confrontations. When that happens, Occupy unleashes massive propaganda campaigns. It talks about the Pepper Spray Cop incident to no end, but dismisses violence created by Occupy protesters as being singular acts that do not represent the whole of the protesters.
OWS leaders want to create a revolution like in the Arab Spring protests. They want to overthrow the American government. If they wanted to create a more social and responsible republic, the would look at countries like Canada and Sweden for inspiration. Instead, they look at Egypt.
Iv'e predicted all this two months ago. It was in the cards all along and doesn't surprise me one bit. The latest news article shows a picture of a banner with the word "cops" and an explosion right beside it. It has the phrase, "Wear Black Fight Back". OWS is starting to promote violence. Most protesters don't agree with this idea, but putting your head in the sand doesn't help. If you heed my warning, it's not too late for the peaceful protesters to start attending GA in an attempt to wrestle the power out of the hands of the anarchists.
Occupy Albuquerque has' adoption of non-violence rules' on the agenda for today's GA. I'll be there.
Good for you! We must see that non-voiolence if a fundamental principal of Occupy!!!
Awesome! Keep up the good work.
If you have time, bring this up at the GA:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/learning-from-a-canadian-or-ows-marketing-follies/
Non-violence should begin with the use of peaceful rhetoric and imagery.
Thanks. I didn't see your post until I got back but I will bring up those ideas.
I would say that Albuquerque Occupy is strongly opposed to tactics involving violence, vandalism or 'in your face' screaming disruptions.
I just worry that the name 'Occupy' has now been associated with destruction to a degree we can't recover from because of the failure of some Occupy groups to condemn these tactics. If so, I suppose we can re-form under a new name.
Was this done formally or informally? Was it through the GA and documented as a commitment of your movement?
I'm curious because there is no commitment of non-violence from the NYCGA, it has not passed consensus. I know!! Beats me how something which is so obviously the right thing to does not have consensus.
It's in the principles of solidarity. "...we use non-violent civil disobedience".
The word violence can mean different things to different people. Some people don't consider property destruction be violence for example.
According to a member of the Direct Action group, you can read his own words in the link I provided, there has not been a commitment to be exclusively nonviolent. He specifically calls the principles of solidarity "disinformation", is a draft, and has not reached consensus.
Maybe it comes down to the definition of violence. Or, hello right hand, meet left hand. I do not know. But the Direct Action group seems pretty clear on the way they operate - which includes property destruction.
You're fighting the good fight. Don't stop. We'll be called trolls, we'll be banned, but, no matter what, we'll reclaim our space and voice on this forum. We'll Occupy. For solidarity. ;-)
You are incorrect. This seems to be a commonly held misconception. The document you are referring to is a draft and has never recieved consensus.
According to a member of the NYC Direct Action Working Group, they operate under the principle of "diversity of tactics" and "accepts the use of force in defense against state violence as well as property destruction as a political act" and have "never committed to being an exclusively non-violent movement".
http://occupywallst.org/forum/has-ows-changed-their-stance-in-regards-to-the-bla/#comment-608439
not according to the NYCGA site: "This is an official document crafted by the Working Group on Principles of Consolidation. The New York City General Assembly came to consensus on September 23rd to accept this working draft and post it online for public consumption". I don't know if that explicitly means that they came to consensus on it, but we make other decisions within the movement based on it. We have asked people to leave meetings for violating these principles.
No one there today was in disagreement, but we did not come up with specific wording. Some people are going to post possible language on the website for discussion both on-line, and in the next GA. I would say that the violence and vandalism aspects are crystal clear and easy to define. Certain other actions like angry mic checks at the legislature, less so.
I can't see any reason that property destruction is necessary in our circumstances today. The Boston Tea Party was mainly a reaction against a monarchy. We have a good form of government. I don't see any reason for property destruction. It will only serve to turn people off. If this movement wants more support, it needs to be totally non violent, including property destruction. Unless it wants to be the Blackbloc.
I agree. I would hope so anyway! Oakland though is clearly out of control with their violence. And its unbelievable to me that this is even an issue for any GA to get a commitment of nonviolence passed, including property destruction. This should be a no brainer.
I hope you're right about Albuquerque and they can get this done quickly. Sounds like its a better group of people there by you as opposed to Oakland.
The devil is in the details of course. Although I oppose the sort of random vandalism that happened in Oakland, I think there are times when destruction of property can be an effective form of protest.
The Boston Tea party destroyed private property but that was a symbolic gesture directly tied to the law they were protesting. More recently, here in New Mexico, there was controversy over erection of a statue of Don Juan de Onate, a brutal Spanish conqueror who had ordered amputation of one foot of each of the men of the Acoma Indian tribe. The statue went up and some activists cut off one of Onate's feet. I thought that was pretty cool. Again, property destruction, but with a point, not destruction for the sake of destroying.
What are your thoughts on this sort of property destruction?
Yes, all of this seems pretty suspicious, doesn't it?.
Very suspicious indeed.
Could our friend here, (owsleader?) be part of the, shall we say, coordinated effort?
I think he is exactly who he says he is. Probably an anarchist.
This sounds exactly like the kind of person who would be involved in the disgusting mess that took place in Oakland with the Municipal building invasion. It's property invasion! Occupy Oakland planned to break, enter and invade another persons private property. Who does this?!! Those people that planned and were part of that, the Oakland Occupy ptb are out of control and completely sick in the head. They are pathetic disgusting people. And they probably have the very same thought process as this sicko owsleader2038.
"We are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty in a feather-bed." --Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1790
Thomas Jefferson would not have been stupid enough to spend trillions of dollars on military weaponry and put it in the hands of despots.
The police have a terminology of what they did at UC Davis its called "Soften Up", if you watch the videos the people weren't even moving just sitting but what the cops did is spray their faces in a line, and then pick-up each person.
The reason is that dead weight is harder to lift than live weight, by spraying their face they become agitated and are easier to move. In the lifeless form without spray they're very hard to lift and to much work for the cops.
For the cop's its all about CONTROL, and making their jobs easy, spraying the kids in the face prior to moving them out, is simply just part of normal police training.
You are buying into Occupy propaganda.
The police have done horrible things. What happened in Oakland a few months ago when a protester was shot with a canister on the head was inadmissible as was the incident with the Pepper Spray Cop. There is no doubt about this. However, Occupy has exaggerated the frequency of these incidences in order to demonize the police. It is absolutely and categorically untrue that all Occupy confrontations with the police have been like this. In fact, they constitute a minority. Most confrontations with the police have been without incidences.
In the same way, the news media has also used propaganda against Occupy. This is normal, but should also be outed. Everyone uses propaganda on the road to achieving their objectives. It's part of the game.
Look at the picture in the latest Occupy news article: http://occupywallst.org/article/solidarity-sunday/
It has been chosen wisely. There is an explosion beside the word "cops". This is not a coincidence. The title of the article reads "Wear Black, Fight Back". This does not inspire peace. The news articles that preceded also started to hint that the activities of the black bloc were acceptable in the eyes of the anarchists who organized Occupy and run it to this day.
The fact of the matter is that the anarchists want to create a revolution. They have wanted this since the beginning and that is why they are so deeply inspired by the Arab Spring protests. There is no way to overthrow the American Republic without violence. This is obvious. The anarchists know this. They use direct action to create tension with the police. Inevitably, some policemen overreact and the anarchists use this to promote the idea that Occupy protesters are victims of a oppressive regime similar to the one in Egypt. Once protesters believe this, slowly adding violence in the guise of it being a way to "fight back" will become easy.
The truth is that you don't need to Occupy a building or a park 24/7 to assert your right to peaceful assembly or peaceful protest. If Occupy wanted, it could easily organize protests, marches, and assemblies which would be limited in time. This would not cause a problem, and if it did, then they would have a real reason to complain. By forcibly occupying spaces 24/7, Occupy organizers are purposefully forcing confrontations with the police.
" There is no way to overthrow the American Republic without violence. "
Wrong.
It can be done, and it will be met with violence on the part of the Powers That Be, just like now, where the only ones rioting are the police, and the way the Civil Rights movement in the 60's was met with dogs and water cannons.
But the only way to overthrow and change this country is through massive non-violent acts of political power. Emphasis on the word "massive".
Don't try to think there's any other way, like "working with the system" (puke!) because there simply is NOT.
Occupy Propangda to be tagged 'pussy propaganda',
No war in human history was won be being nice and cowardly,
Yes we all read Thoreau&Emerson in college, ... and yes at the end of the day Thoreau was rich from selling pencils, begin to end, ... lucky dog, and could sit on a pond and write cool books,
But the fact is throughout all human history wars are won by being the firstist with the mostest, funny that the US Marines are NOT fed this shit that Occupy Fills the brains of folks here with, that by being a pussy you can win,
The US Government has been boiling the public frog for more than 50 years and now the public fears its own shadow, and the likes of OWS would like everyone to believe that being a coward will set you free,
Again funny that the way the USA came to power was violence and theft, and funny that it stays in power with courts and prisons, but most funny of all is we the people have to be told to bend over and enjoy being fucked, cuz it will set us free.
Bull fucking shit.
police are demons, id rather have all the money back i paid to them, and carry my own protection in the form of a hand gun or whatever. they do a lousy job. they are in the business of persecuting us free citizens, giving us tickets for not wearing a seat belt, my god, they might as well give me a ticket for not wiping my ass. some men, dont need other men to teach them what is right, we choose to live by gods laws, not mans laws.
and the dmv is just an evil tentacle of their control over the people, they took my last thousand in savings this past year cause i had a check enging light, they wouldnt give me permission to drive my vehicle to work. some day, ill get my revenge.
To each his own. I personally would not want to live in a world policed by mob rule. Days of village lynchings are over for a reason.
When you go out to take your revenge, leave your gun at home.
Amazing and beautiful quote. Thanks for sharing!
That's all fine to Quote 'king' who was murdered by TEAM-CIA, the same team that is killing our country today and the world. The same team that run's virtually every 'legitimate' power in the western world.
I prefer Mao-Tse-Tung "All political Power comes from the barrel of a gun"
It's nice to see folks quote King (MLK), but then its even more interesting to watch TV USA water-board the worlds children.
Watch what people do, not at what they say.
You prefer Moa, who murdered TENS OF MILLIONS of his own people?
King GOT the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act passed, freeing his people from Jim Crow laws. He got a lot more in terms of freeing people and getting them a living wage.
What did Moa get? Naked raw power and a starving populace he systematically brutalized.
King paid for his people's victories with his life. Mao forced his own people to pay with theirs.
Great choice.
You aren't an OWS leader, but an OWS destroyer. I'm sure you take pride in destruction, fitting as it does so well in your revolutionary concocted hubristic grandiose self image. But no one will help bring down a single structure unless there is something much more positive to build in its place. And what is built on violence is violent, and depends on violence to maintain itself. You, I hope, are utterly alone in your desire for it.
Chomsky points out correctly that the Amerikan propaganda machine uses one standard for the rest of the world and another for Amerika. "When we estimate the human toll of a crime, we count not only those who were literally murdered on the spot but those who died as a result. That is the course we adopt reflexively, and properly, when we consider the crimes of official enemies--Stalin, Hitler, and Mao, to mention the most extreme cases."(pp. 46-47) He goes on to point out that most accusations against Stalin and Mao count deaths that occurred under them as some kind of oppression, whether Stalin and Mao knew the dead or intended the deaths. Chomsky then rightly adds that we should do the same for our own leaders, in this case Clinton in 1998.
I have no problem with using a single standard of counting. I would certainly take issue with the notion that Mao and Stalin didn't know exactly what they they were doing, or that tens of millions weren't directly murdered by them, with bullets. (Ever read "The Gulag Archipeligo" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn?)
Regardless, it has no bearing on OWSdestroyer's posts, or my responses to them. Favoring Mao's thought over King's will not win him any comrades I, or the overwhelming majority of people, would support. It emphatically does not represent the will or the interests of the 99%.
King wanted equality, a concept for the slave people.
Mao wanted to rid China of western influence, big fucking difference in goals.
But, and here's the BIG BUTT,
Today the occupation of the USA by the corporate monster run by CIA/DHS/NSA/TSA is not unlike what MAO was against when he was trying to free CHINA of western influence post 1940's, but the fact is he won. I love to study winners, ...
Note that MLK lost,
Chomsky also points out that the debate from both ends are ran by the CIA, .e.g. the CIA controls the OWS debate, and it controls what is disseminated from FauxNews. Chomsky calls it 'manufacturing consent' and even wrote a book by that title explaining how the USA government controls the world.
i don't think you read the book - or didn't understand it completely - watch the movie - it is easier
Chomsky also points out that reform, not revolution, is called for now.
Chomsky is a tenured DARPA MIT fellow. An insider going back to the OSS pre CIA, ... yep I love Chomsky. If he says that revolution is only won by being a pussy, then it must be true, given that he is a pussy and has the full backing of the CIA covering his white ass and a pension from the US-ARMY(DARPA) to boot.
Hear, Hear!
BRAVO ! Great Post ! !
You can't even spell Mao ( Tse-Tung ), what's the point?? I notice that everything you write is mispelled and illiterate, yet the OWS crowd gives you 9 points, or you yourself give yourself 9 points with all your monikers, ... but most telling is your inability to even know how to spell the name of the most influential politician in recent history.
FYI BUSH, .. RAYGUN, CLINTON, ... OBAMA have killed far more people.
Yup, a misspelling of a proper name is certainly a basis for reasoned argument.
I have ONE "moniker". I take responsibility for what I write, as well as what I do. You clearly don't, especially in terms of the latter.
At any rate, especially as this forum is not limited to the New York "pussies" as you called them on another one of your thrilling, self aggrandizing posts, but represent posters from all over the world, It would seem that your grand violent revolution lacks popular support.
If by influential you mean among the most murderous in all of human history, I suppose Mao really does fit that bill. You must be so proud to be emulating him. Even if others in the last century may have approached his blood lust, you are still idolizing a mass murderer. (Obama really killed more than the one hundred twenty million people Mao did? Gee, that's news to me - and everyone else in the world.) Clearly, people like ML King are simply not macho enough for you. It must be gratifying to know how much better and more enlightened you are than him. You're mother must be so happy.
Go back to prison in Oakland. Apparently you like it there.
As to the rest of us "pussies" we'll do just fine, and do it non-violently, without you. Thanks for your glorious and positive contribution, at least in your eyes. Now run along and go drink a Molotov cocktail.
Do you think King would not have been murdered, (along with a lot more people,) if he had advocated violence?
Read the "Autobiography of Malcolm-X" if you want to know the answer to that question.
"The Autobiography of Malcolm X", "No More Lies" by Dick Gregory, and "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" were the three main texts I studied in High School for American history class. I was reading Chomsky and Marx by the time I was 17. The school was founded on Anarco-Syndicalist principles.
I studied with some of the best radicals out there. And not ONE of them supports violence.
Once in college I led student strikes. Once out I organized for the Unions. I even had a contract put out on me for my pro-worker union activities. The FBI and Interpol got involved to prevent my murder. In the meantime I spent a year looking over my shoulder. So you can take your holier than thou radical posturing and shove it where the sun don't shine: between your ears.
In human history no pussy ever won a battle.
IMHO this entire debate about non-violent protesting is simply a means to get people to vent and then do nothing else.
It's funny that our opposition the police and army and DHS are armed to the teeth to kill us and imprison us, and yet they're troops are not taught to be non-violent. Funny indeed.
The enemy is armed and dangerous, yet were told to be weak, humble and meek and wait to be shipped off to prison camps and get fucked in the ass.
Funny, but this is how all totalitarian governments prefer to manage their people, cuz the real fact is it only takes a few dozen folks with balls to completely fuck a 9-5 system of mercenarys.
That sounds like a great way to leave a whole lot of anarchists feeling happy and vindicated in their prison cells (and possibly on death row) and provide the pretext for things like the EEA to get through, leading to the possibility of an actual outright police state. At best we'd probably have one or two Kent state incidents, and at worst we'd have an escalating race to the bottom between the violent factions of OWS and the government. Should that escalate into outright civil war we would go from living in Chechnya or the West Bank to living in modern Somalia or 2006 Iraq.
Given the degree to which the country is polarized on so many issues, you'd wind up with 50-50 neighbor-on-neighbor violence involving two evenly matched sides. You wouldn't get Bull Run or Gettysburg, you'd get Watts. In every city and every community in this country. In a situation like that there is no real winner; the losers get wiped out but the winners inherit a bloody mess that nobody in their right mind would want to have to put back together. Even when you have defined geographical entities with traditional armies, war (especially civil war) is quite an ugly and destructive business. Now strip away the defined nature of two armies going at it and just have every man for himself running around with guns and knives and all-kinds of what-have-you. There's precedent for that... Iraq, Sudan, and Somalia, just to name a few.
Now if you're sure that's what you want, then that's fine by me. Up until now I've given this thing the benefit of the doubt. I've parried crap and tried to sell fence-sitters on this left and right. I was and I still am disgusted by the police violence turned on members of the movement during peaceful marches and evictions, and I stand behind you in attempts to call those involved to account. If OWS goes in the direction you're describing, I and a whole lot of others will be done with it once and for all. If you think that you're going to be able to do anything other than get yourselves killed and possibly start a few riots here and there you're sadly deluded.
I agree. Nonviolent revolution works more often than violent revolution, anyways! Anyone in this movement who is advocating violence is either living in a teenage fantasy land or is a cop.
That's Right!
[Removed]
OWS power is NIL, they have NO say in this debate. Period.
The good people of Oakland already live everyday in what you describe above, they already live in a civil-war, that has been going on for 40+ years 24-7 with the police, its just that its ignored by the mainstream media. As a child I lived in Watt's I saw the fires of 1965 I was there.
What you write above reminds of someone who perhaps lives in Vermont, long far away from today's America, I can tell you this that the HELL you describe already exists for a large portion of America, most of the URBAN hell's of America today are Somalia, and make Nairobi look like a fairy-tale.
I can tell you now as an international citizen that the today's USA is the worst fucking place to be in the world, the most violent, the most filthy, and the most disparity.
In summary what you write is correct, but I think you fear that OWS has power and that the SHIT will not come to your HOOD, I can tell you this, ... whenever a people ignore their brothers and sisters and the shit does come, and it will come. The CIVIL war is here NOW. The Police State is here now, its already here for years since the 1980's, and if you don't see it, its only because your obviously a white man with money.
Hardly; I'm a half-Puerto Rican kid from the Bronx who clawed his way out and made it all the way to MIT because my family and my community cared. The whole reason I'm even here is because I don't like watching other people getting drummed right back into the world my sister and I broke out of and if we let this country continue along the path it's going down right now then that's what's going to keep happening.
I'm here because I want to reverse that trend and I want to see the USA pull as many of its own people out of poverty (urban, rural, or otherwise) as it possibly can. You don't want to reverse that trend, you want to accelerate it. You want to pull the rest of the country down into your own personal version of hell just to vindicate your own bitterness, and if you think I or anyone else won't curb stomp your sorry ass the first time it looks like you might have a chance at succeeding, you're dead wrong. By the way, if after everything I've done and gone through I go back to my old neighborhood and find it in flames thanks to something you and your ilk started I'll come for you.
owsleader2038 is just another troll, they come in like this to incite violence or to get people to turn away in disgust.
They spout lies and hatred, and then when you try to nail them down, the story changes, just ignore the jerkwad, he's probably a 12 year old in indiana or something.
His story already falls to pieces, as usual, I think this particular troll was also a self-described 83 year old socialist granny from washington. when kids lie, they go big.
Bravo. SO well said. And I would stand by your side.
I voted with my feet long ago and fled the USA, if you had taken Economics with Samuelson at MIT you would know to flee to PR before they'll not let you in, but sadly you have created a mythology that will keep you living in hell (USA).
Thank you for leaving my country and making your sorry ass the burden of another one. And thank you also for making the USA sound so horrible, so hell-like that no one else LIKE you will want to come here, or stay here.
Anyone who thinks the USA doesn't reek of shit simply hasn't traveled and seen the world.
No place in the world, no city, nothing is as dangerous as most USA city's.
No police forces on the planet are as rude, mean and hostile to the population as the USA police, the majority here such as BetsyRoss who I KNOW is a classic THRASSY apologist sadly does represent the majority here that there is some good in the USA.
The fact is there is NO good in the USA, that it's people are selfish and rotten to the core, they blame their politicians and corporations for plundering the earth.
Funny how not one single parasite in NYC bothered to join the OWS type movements until their trustfund got absconded by wall-street.
Anybody that thinks the USA is even in the top 100 best places in the world to live simply has NOT traveled.
The USA sucks dick, just thinking about the TSA/DHS sticking their fingers up my ass at the airport is cause enough alone to NEVER visit the god damn fucking NAZI USA.
The USA citizens are so deep in shit they don't even know anymore how much their frog has been boiled.
Any world traveling you have done is extremely limited. Especially in the USA. But again, keep on making this country sound terrible so that anyone stupid enough, and inexperienced enough, to believe what you are saying chooses to live somewhere else.
The person who is filled with shit is usually the last person to figure out why that smell is always wherever he is.
If you live in PR what do you care? Don't worry about us.
if the violent overthrow,
the violent will be in power
If pussy's live in tents in their own shit and trash, they'll get sick and die.
Never in human history have the weak and stupid won a battle.
The founders of the USA republic made it very clear at the birth of this nation that freedom would only survive if blood flowed every generation.
ministration can be taxing
So you feel the violence must be ratched it up? At last an honest poster.
What I said is that if you want to understand the discontent today 2011-2012 in American history you need to study the Bonus-Boys of 1932. They were murdered by the US army on the steps of Wash-DC.
Nothing came of it, as the MSM in 1932 covered up the murder, ... but the little people talked and when the next election came around FDR won, because the little people were mad as hell at the murders that HOOVER had ordered.
What is happening now is the police will over react and kill children and this will effect the next election.
Just stating how US history works.
I think it's counter productive to say that nobody uses this forum for anything useful. That is not true. Many of the ideas that have been acted upon in our communities have been generated on this forum. To say that communication isn't anything useful to this movement seems a strange thing to say to me.
We must bring them down, one way or the other. But I think reforming democracy would be a better way of putting it than "Tearing down the system."
The US Constitution clearly says' that "the People have at all times the Right to Abolish their Government"
When I say tear down the US government, I'm simply using street terminology for Abolishing the US Government. "Flush the fucking toilet" would be the correct vernacular.
Ah, but first we had better make sure the toilet doesn't flush us.
Since the Occupy Movement doesn't have any leaders I'll assume you are another troll.
That aside, there are those within the movement who feel as you do. I can't say if their feelings are the result of
cynicism after a long train of abuse,
laziness and envy upon recognition of the depth of disenfranchisement of the middle class and the lengths we must go to rectify the problem,
or deep shame and a desire for retribution on behalf of the global population whose lives and livelihoods have been enslaved to American consumer demand
They may even be correct in their analysis - regardless of how they come by it.
Yet it is not a position I subscribe to. Nor, I think, will most Americans. If Occupy truly does represent the 99, and if it truly does operate on the basis of consensus, then it is clear, there is much work to be done to determine if the system we currently have can be salvaged, and if it cannot, to provide such proof of that to sufficient numbers of the rest of America that we arrive at consensus on that point.
Saying there are no leaders does not mean there are no leaders. In this case, what's important is to look at practice, not theory or rhetoric.
At this time, Occupy does not represent the 99%. It does not even represent 99% of the views of its own protesters. What it does represent is the ideas of the few anarchists who are in control of the NYCGA. I urge you to go there with other protesters who care about peace and to wrestle the decisional power out of their hands. This is America, not Egypt. A revolution is not needed. Occupy must stop demonizing the police, and it must become a true peaceful protest. Direct action should be dropped in favor of tactics that work within the current governmental structure. I believe the American Republic is a good model and that it can be saved. We must work on fixing the bad laws which have opened to door to corruption. Socialism is the key, not anarchism. Inspiration should come from Sweden and Canada, not the Arab Spring protests.
Support OWS - Support Obama - Support Prisons
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You're a liar. OWS wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the realization that Obama was a fraud, a con job, and the Third Term of Bush.
Obama people would LOVE to co-opt the movement. But they won't. Because the people who "get it" hate Obama as much as they hate Bush. Obama is a far better liar than Bush, much more successful at tricking people, and is therefore even more evil than Bush.
I wish this were true, ... but what I have seen of OWS is that if your not a supporter of RE-ELECT OBAMA 2012, then your shit in this forum.
The OWS only exists to re-elect the OREO, and send more people of color off to oil wars.
You're a freaking lunatic. Go back under the rock you crawled out of.
tee hee. I secretly switched their blood with folgers crystals. Lets see if he can tell the difference.. eh.
Re-invented into what?
To tear down "the system" unless you have a better alternative or a principle that can knock it down. Fortunately, both are available.
I truly wish, ... to sweet talk you, and tell you that there is hope, as OBAMA has shown there has been NO CHANGE, so all HOPE has been lost.
OBAMA came to power by getting money from WALL-ST bankers ( 1% ), and promising more public money to the public-employee-unions ( prison industry ).
The little people have no power, the entire world is NOW voting the USA down with its wallet, the entire world knows the USA paper dollar is worthless and only 'legal-tender' because the USA keeps the NUKE-GUN to the worlds head.
The world is sick and tired of USA aggression and murder, its game-over for the USA parasitic nation. The majority of all of you have no idea of what your government did in your name during the past 50+ years, but it don't matter, you remained silent, because 56% of the USA public feeds at the government PIG-TROUGH ( phony USA dollars ), now that the money will collapse in value nothing will keep the USA integrated. All hell will break loose.
The system is collapsing from its own HUBRIS, so don't blame the messenger.
It's too late to fix the USA, all must be abolished, and out of the ashes good men & women must come forward to build anew.
America is a nation of 'interest' by definition by Hamilton in the Federalist Papers, trouble is today that 'interest' is held by courts and prisons.
No power of any of us can change the path of the USA-SYSTEM, its going down and hard. Fleeing to a free nation is the only safe bet, if you bother to study the history of civil wars.
I guess I didn't communicate well and think sufficiently. I think the US has let things degrade too far and too long. Unfortunately, the possibility of a peaceful transition to a sustainable economy appears to have been lost.
Well like the old cartoon said "We have met the enemy and he is US"
That said, study history, Rome fell, London fell, Constantinople fell, they all fall, nothing special about the USA.
Back in 1917 a book was written by Oswald Sprengler called "decline of the west", read that book on the history of failed civilizations,
Shit read Faber(marc) today "Tomorrows Gold", ... nobody is going to miss the USA, it was a short lived imperial venture of greed, but once they had to start borrowing money from the chinese to fund their oil wars, ... it was game-over.
The USA people don't have a clue, but never cared, ... only cared about their TV and auto fuel.
I would agree with that.
The USA is a failed police state, and no CIA COINTEL OP such as OWS can fix this miss, humpty dumpty has fell off the wall and the DHS/TSA is crippled and fucked.
Do it, but don't be surprised that the demands are ignored. The Radcons are bent on destroying America and no demand is going to stop them or even influence them. The only way is to un-elect the Radcons in Congress. See: http://thedragonsteeth.wetpaint.com/page/THE+NEW+PARTY Jim Miller
The US Constitution Gives us the Right to Abolish our government, anytime we wish.
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One can put things positively or negatively. Thinking positively is not only better for winning people over, but it is better for our own thinking and creativity. It is more likely to win people over to think about what we want to create than what we want to destroy. Of course that is difficult to put concretely, especially since our movement is so tiny and the task so immense, But we can start just by saying that we want a just, democratic, loving, peaceful and ecologically viable society and begin to talk to people from such a positive vision. This does not preclude militant action. For example, taking over abandoned buildings points to the idea of a society in which everyone has adequate housing.
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This post smells like Thrassy has gone really rogue.
Thrassy NEVER in his entire time on this forum ever had anything to say or offer intelligent or otherwise. His purpose was ONLY to distract, the fact that you have to invoke his image or name, is very dubious?
Thrassy's only game was to insult and anger people and drive good people away from this forum and in this he succeeded with OWS infamy.
What drove me to write today's post was that after not being here for 2 months, and gently reading all the Limbaugh diatribe it occurred to me that the majority here now somehow believe that there is an essential good in the USA worth fixing. There is NOT.
There was not in the 1930's, there was not in the 1960's, and there is not in the 2010's the USA is rotten to the core and MUST be destroyed.
Sorry. Not buying it, Thrassy.
No, this one is legitimately not him. Thrassy plays mind games from time to time. This dude is just deranged.
Definitely not Thrassy. He's a lot smarter than this dude.
Notice he keeps stressing he's been away "for 2 months? Sign on created today. 2 mths ago, Thrassy was opining as Glaucon. His denial to me speaks of Thrassy's " infamy"/ In a diff thread this guy says something about shadow banning.
I could be wrong, but.....
Thrassy's been on the forum pretty much continuously using a long list of various names, now including Socrate and Cephalus. I've been talking to him on another thread for the past two days about other matters and he's never once sounded off in this manner. Is this a "bad hand" account? It's possible, but I doubt it. I'm pretty sure he'd find the sheer crudity of this thread beneath him.
I promote peace, not violence. What Iv'e been saying for months is that Occupy leaders are planning to turn to violence. Most protesters do not want this and that is why I urge you to attend your local GA to wrestle the power out of the anarchists' hands. America is not Egypt, it does not need to destroy the government with a revolution.
As for owsleader, he is his own man. He keeps getting banned and coming back. The only thing that changes are the numbers at the end of his username. You can use Google to search for his previous postings.
Note: I never use caplocks in my comments. I find this impolite and childish. I trust that forum readers can read without needing words to be highlighted for them. If I want to stress a word or an idea, I use adjectives. Thus, if you see comments with all capitalized words, believe me, they are not mine.
ok, ok. Given you have been pretty forthcoming about your actions (you know the downvoting thing) I guess I will apologize even, tho I hate to bump this ridiculous thread back up! Given your tendency towards multiple personalities (my personal nickname for you is "Sybil") lol, I just thought you had decided to play a new game. Sorry. Also hope this latest incarnation of owleadersxxx has been banned!
Well if you want the USA destroyed you can just relax because the people in power now are doing a fine job of that without your help.
That is so true. Our country needs to be saved by "We the people."
We shouldn't tear the system down, we should build our own. The system will collapse in on itself, due to technological unemployment in the coming years. We should transition over into the new system before the system fully collapses. We don't need these fuckers anymore, just like we don't need the mainstream media, and a college degrees anymore, because we can get all relevant information online. I've already got it planned out.
We stop fighting the system and use it to our advantage. We don't have to be civil-disobedient to win, we use reason w/ law. The U.S.A is a corporation, as all nations are. The OWS must become a for-profit corporation selling open-source products and free food. Corporations cannot compete with that, and will be driven out of business.
We ask for land. Farmers are generous, especially to the OWS: ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsNUqK6saMU ). I'm sure they'd love to donate us land, or sell us land at an extremely low price. Once we have a permanent place to Occupy, we don't have to worry about evictions, and the planning for a new society could really take-off.
We connect with OpenSourceEcology: Global Village Construction Set to begin building a self-sustaining Occupy Community. http://OpenSourceEcology.org/
We educate people about a resource-based economy, or a world without money. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1CVyUlFkyI - ((this video is the most important))
I have to laugh that somehow a Canadian company [adbusters] ran by a Hungarian ( CANVAS ), is going to be the custodian of your future.
Yes you don't need to tear down the system, because it will implode, in only a few years nations, like China, Russia, Iran, ... will simply require GOLD in exchange for OIL, once the USA cannot buy OIL with US Dollars ( worthless paper ) the entire PONZI we call the US police state will collapse over night, its coming and quick.
Private issuance and regulation of our credit and currency is the root cause of all our many problems. Over time whoever controls the currency will control the nation.
Not unlike the Nazi's in say 1938, many a good Jew could make an argument that 'good' come come from a Nazi Germany,...
Today Good Jewish people argue that 'good' can come from Obama, or that a Mormon might be better than a crazy christian? The fact is like Nazi Germany the USA has slid too far down the slope of crime, and plunder on the world. Today the USA is broke, and only knows THEFT ( middle east oil ) as means of continuing its life support.
There is nothing worth saving in the USA, all must be destroyed, and out of the ashes good people may once again "Speak Up", and lead a nation. Today's USA is only a mercenary army destroying the world, and the world is fighting back. This is why Obama wants to close the USA army-bases, but keep open the 1,000's of foreign bases, because the USA only exists to control the world.
The USA people are only now awakening to the fact that the US system care's little about the US people.
The US constitution is a dead document albeit makes very clear that the "People have at all times the right to abolish their government".
So be it, the US government must be abolished, or should I say "Torn Down".
The Committee of 300
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCzR7NCeMYA
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Rouge politicians, thief company CEOs are out there, they manipulate everything like bitches, swallow all the money and ruin the future of humanity.
Nobody get's close to a microphone or a political orifice without being a WHORE to the Corporations (CEO's) - FACT.
Nobody, not Nader, not Obama, not Bush, and NOT Adbusters get's close to anything of significance. The CIA (Big-Oil) controls the left&right arms of all our debates. The CIA has only one goal worldwide, to make sure the world trades OIL in US-DOLLAR's, which the US Government can print for free, and thus get OIL for free to run our country ( world-policeman-army ).
None of any of this debate has anything to do with America or the US government. The US is a 200 year old slave labor agrarian prison colony that went to manufacturing post 1890's, and then 1980's that manufacturing was transferred to Asia. Now the USA has 300 Million humans too many.
Civil War is the next step to the American Experiment, like it or not, it is coming.
You are beginning to sound a very dangerous and counter-productive note here. Is this not just one more attempt to drive us to violence, which would be the one way to assure that this movement loses, and that in fact all Americans will lose?
It is much more likely that violent revolution will bring and end to even the vestiges of our democratic institutions, and bring outright dictatorship, than it is that OWS will emerge the winner.
Is this what you are advocating?
if violence is what it takes to end persecution of the poor then so be it, then the poor can live wherever they want without some other man telling them they cannot live on their earth.
Do you really think it is that simple?
If my rhetoric of "Abolish the US Government" drives you to violence then it is you that are sick.
The OWS will emerge as the winner of nothing, to suggest that a misfit from Hungaria that runs a small software biz in Vancouver BC, has some influence on the US citizen is delusional at best.
Allow me to say this, what your seeing in Oakland happens virtually everyday, but with the lack of 'news' for the MSM they cover anything they can find that ring's "OWS", but its really just sort of FreakWave if you don't mind, where many different things come together at the right time from different directions.
There are 1,000's of highly trained soldiers in Oakland that are living in squalor and pissed at the system, the fact that they're homeless and that the OWS invited them to the 99% tent is so yesterday, the fact that NYC-GA OWS thought they could control real men in the future is quite laughable.
OWS controls nobody.
Perhaps, but if a tenet of this movement is non-violence than anybody engaging in violence, other than in self defense, could be automatically considered not part of this movement.
Abolishing the US government won't fix anything, it'll just toss you and the rest of us right into the middle of Lord of the Flies. I don't care what kind of army of gangbangers and misled adolescents you can put together; it's not going to be enough to do anything but give you a blaze of glory to go out in at the expense of a lot of innocent people on both "sides".
Abolishing the US government Kills the CIA, and it forces ten's of millions of US federal employees ( cops, prison guards, .... ) to go home and care for their family's.
To suggest that our country would be the "Lord of the Fly's" without the US prison system is a joke.
There's a major difference between fixing the prison system and abolishing the government. I'm fully in favor of legalizing marijuana and amending the statutes as far as other drugs are concerned, which in turn would get large groups of young men whose only crime was drug commerce out of prison. I feel that such a move, along with better staffing of courts and subsidizing law school for public defenders much the same way some places are beginning to subsidize med school for primary care doctors should ensure that the poor have a fair shot at talented representation and clean up most of the abuses inflicted by the current legal system.
That said, the government does a hell of a lot more than just operate prisons (and a lot of the prisons people wind up in are operated by the individual states anyway) and all of that would go down the drain if you suddenly pulled the plug on the government. That means no post office, no EPA, no DoD, nobody gets their Social Security checks, nobody gets their TANF checks, the military doesn't get paid, firefighters and teachers are suddenly unemployed, and that's just the start.
The federal government doesn't pay fire-fighters, city-cops, or teachers,
But I give up 99% of OWS are supporters of the status quo police state.
Case closed
Abolish the USA police state, ... all OWS sponsors, .. DHS, CIA, NSA, TSA, cop-shops, ... prisons.
Go back to pre-1880's America where citizens picked their judges and sheriff, and they were accountable to the people not OWS(canada), or corporate assholes.
Why does the MAJORITY of this OWS-FORUM coddle and protect the Police State? ( Prison Industrial Complex )
That is an outright lie.
It's a 100% outright correct observation from reading on this forum.
The folks here are 100% in support of Cops, Prisons, and waving USA flags.
I'm in 100% of those that burn those flags.
That 100% is probably about 1% - so, ironically, you are in the 1%.
OWS is an NYPD front? Yes or No?
UNIONS - Only PUBLIC UNIONS MATTER. Only PUBLIC unions have power, influence, and access to unlimited Federal Reserve funds.
The 500LB gorilla of the public employee union biz, is the public prison unions.
OK Rush, go take some more "medication".
Be sure to tune into Alex Jones, for even more cockamaimy ideas.
The stated goal had not been achieved, and the police are familiar with the aggressiveness of activists in Oakland. They expect it. In fact, the Oakland Police Department is on the verge of federal receivership, an unprecedented move, because the OPD really likes violence, and seeks it out as part of a policy of state-sponsored gang warfare. And the insistence on “Fuck the Police” marches in Oakland leading up to yesterday could only shift the emphasis from the occupation itself to the clash.
Now we have to ask ourselves if we should continue to give the police what they want, which we do in ritualized form at every action. After all, it is these rituals that reproduce belief in the cops. The cops tell a lie. The lie is that their violence is autonomous and imposes its power to preserve an abstract order. What they never want us to understand is that cops are an element of the machinery of the capitalist state, and they exist within a wide network of institutions which allow the capitalist class to exercise social power. In Oakland their repression was used to evict an encampment which threatened to bring public space under proletarian control, and to drive out an attempted building occupation on a day declared to be a “general strike.” And if yesterday the OPD was forced to call upon the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office and city police including Fremont, Hayward, Berkeley, Pleasanton, Union City, and Newark, their actions were structured around the defense of private property and its social system.
But the reinforcement of private property is not limited to police violence. It happens in schools, the legal system, social welfare institutions, non-profit organizations, trade unions, and countless other spaces. Since these institutions don’t use violence to defend private property, a struggle whose assault on capitalist power is as broad as that power itself will situate street confrontations within a wide spectrum of activity. In Oakland the class war did not begin with the occupation. It happens every day when the police are used against its citizens, many of whom are sent not just for a night in jail but to prison, if they aren’t shot in the back. And it happens every day when people are evicted from their homes, when they are subjected to discipline and humiliation in the workplace, when their schools are converted into training camps for Bill Gates. For many of these people, whose entry into political practice is required for the continuation of the Occupy movement, escalating the confrontation with police may not be highly desirable. Evasion is better.
And it is the subject of evasion which brings us to the next part of our story. I can’t claim, for a specific set of reasons, to have direct knowledge of what happened then. I can certainly assure you that I took no part in any illegal activities. But someone who isn’t me was there, and experienced it.
A much smaller crowd – maybe between 200 and 500 – followed a route past the Traveler’s Aid building, the site of the November 2nd occupation attempt, again followed by police. At a certain crucial intersection someone creatively knocked open a fire hydrant to produce a water barricade. The crowd swarmed into a park containing the Remember Them statue, with depictions of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, among others.
The next time Occupy Wall Street sends money to Occupy Oakland, the general assembly may want to consider investing it in a helicopter. With their helicopters the police knew exactly where to line up to kettle the entire group, who were blocked into this park, with little left to do but admire the sculptures, erected by the Oakland Metropolitan Chamber of Commerce, of men and women who committed civil disobedience and faced police in the past.
The police recited their order to disperse. Some people probably wanted to fight again, but the vast majority did not. They approached the lines of police and informed them that they wished to disperse. This had to be repeated several times; most times it was ignored, sometimes it was met with a response that they were waiting for instructions. When the instructions arrived the police informed people who wanted to disperse that they should move to another corner of the park and exit onto the street there. The crowd moved over to that corner, where a cop told them, “stay away from us,” and refused to allow anyone to leave.
Suddenly, at the other end of the park, a smoke bomb. People started running towards a fence, which blocked the only area without police. An advanced element knocked down the fence and the whole crowd ran, coming up against another fence and knocking that one down too.
A few people ran off and successfully dispersed. The others gathered and were kettled again. Part of this group made a remarkable escape through the YMCA, jumping over exercise equipment and exiting elsewhere. Another part of the group was arrested.
The action didn’t stop there. Another group, whoever wasn’t sitting in front of the YMCA with zipties cutting into their wrists, returned to Oscar Grant Plaza and simply decided to occupy City Hall, where they burned an American flag and fought with police again.
Earlier that day, as we sat in Oscar Grant Plaza waiting for the next round, I heard a number of people talk about the class war. War demands military thinking. Among the basic principles of military strategy is the one which dictates that you retreat when the enemy advances. This is as fundamental a principle as the one which dictates that you pursue when the enemy retreats. And any evaluation of the day will have to begin with the acknowledgment that up to 500 of our troops were captured.
In the 1895 Introduction to Class Struggles in France, Karl Marx’s account of the 1848 revolution and its repression, Friedrich Engels reviewed the effect of historical changes in warfare on the class struggle. “Let us have no illusions about it,” he wrote. “A real victory of insurrection over the military in street fighting, a victory as between two armies, is one of the rarest exceptions. And the insurgents counted on it just as rarely… The most that an insurrection can achieve in the way of actual tactical operations is the proficient construction and defence of a single barricade.”
Knowing that the barricade tactic was one of “passive defense,” and that the military always possessed equipment and training unavailable to the insurgents, the revolutionaries of the 19th century pursued other goals. “Even in the classic time of street fighting,” Engels wrote, “the barricade produced more of a moral than a material effect. It was a means of shaking the steadfastness of the military.”
But at a certain point street-fighting lost its “magic,” even for this “moral” effect. After 1848 the police developed their own tactics of street fighting, and a whole range of changes tipped the balance in favor of the military. Their armies became bigger, and their weapons far more effective. Engels lists the smooth-bore muzzle-loading percussion gun, the small-calibre breech-loading magazine rifle, and the dynamite cartridge. He adds that the urban terrain had been transformed, with “long, straight, broad streets, tailor-made to give full effect to the new cannons and rifles.”
To this list we can now add beanbag bullets, CS gas, and helicopters. We are lucky that, unlike in Egypt, more traditional varieties of bullets are not currently on the table. But we can’t ignore the limits of the barricades; since the Paris Commune in 1871, which the Oakland Commune now recalls, the tactic of the barricades has been linked to defeat and the possibility of vicious and bloody repression. We have not suffered such a gruesome defeat. But coming up with a long-term strategy, beyond the short-term tactics, means that we acknowledge and learn from the defeats that we experience.
OK Rush, you took a bit too much medication.
Have a few martinis and go lay down for a while.
Just remember................Think happy thoughts.
Re-Elect OBAMA/BUSH 2012 ... Keep the status quo, support zero-change,... love prisons or leave america ...
The revolution will not be televised and OWS will not be invited.
Nobody get's close to a microphone or a political orifice without being a WHORE to the Corporations (CEO's) - FACT.
Nobody, not Nader, not Obama, not Bush, and NOT Adbusters get's close to anything of significance. The CIA (Big-Oil) controls the left&right arms of all our debates. The CIA has only one goal worldwide, to make sure the world trades OIL in US-DOLLAR's, which the US Government can print for free, and thus get OIL for free to run our country ( world-policeman-army ).
None of any of this debate has anything to do with America or the US government. The US is a 200 year old slave labor agrarian prison colony that went to manufacturing post 1890's, and then 1980's that manufacturing was transferred to Asia. Now the USA has 300 Million humans too many.
Civil War is the next step to the American Experiment, like it or not, it is coming.
Ellen Brown J.D. proposes practical solutions at her site:
http://www.WebOfDebt.com
see bill posted at http://www.Monetary.org
see proposed legislation at http://www.TheMoneyMasters.com
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A violent nation that kills for MONEY such as the USA only understands violence, its why the LEFT has failed for the past 50 years.
So go ahead NYC team OWS sit on your ass and wait for spring, ... but the folks out west will show you how to run a revolution.
The left has not failed in the last 50 years. You have simply failed to recognize its accomplishments.
Your specific brand of revolution will fail, too, because no one wants it.
There is NO LEFT in the USA just two flavors of FauxNews DEM&PUG or CNN/ABC/NBC/CBS aka Military Industrial Complex. Chomsky calls it manufacturing consent. The LEFT&RIGHT in the USA a virtual creation of the CIA, where in an Orwellian nature everybody supports BIG brother.
Case closed in this thread 99% of the OWS folks are status quo supporters of the existing police state.
THe 99% percent of EVERYBODY doesn't see it it your way. And guess what. You can't have a revolution without any support.
Well said.
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