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Forum Post: Is This as Good as It Gets?

Posted 1 year ago on Aug. 16, 2012, 9:17 p.m. EST by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Is this it? Is this as good as it gets? This entire system is fucked, the whole thing is all encompassing and corrupted, and its not going to get better as long as :

"I voted for X" is the main extent to the people's efforts.

Its a joke. And the apathy of the people is really starting to screw up any chance the next generation has for a future of decent food, good schools and an overall happy existence.

Get in front and lead or get the hell out of the way.



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[-] 3 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

I understand your rage. I was living in a nice house, two cars, good job. I was on the path to the middle class. Then boom. No jobs no nothing. I spent a year telling people there was no work, something is wrong with the economy. My family, my wife, all thought I just wasn't looking. They thought I had turned to a lump. A year later, it was all over the news. But the damage started long before 2008. 2008 was just the point that they could no longer hide it from the public. The media and politicians are to blame for the lack of progress as much as any partisan voter. They keep pointing to the gains on Wall Street as proof that not all is lost. This is complete bullshit. Wall Street is now and has been living off the money coming from the FED. At the end of July they handed Wall Street another 257 billion dollars. And now Wall Street is booming. We can all see this isn't fixing the economy, just making numbers for the sake of numbers and filling the very pockets of the people who fucked us. This is why I have been saying, LET IT COLLAPSE. This is the only thing that could force the self diluting dipshits into doing their goddamn jobs. I'm tired of waiting for the tragedy or deliverance. Let it collapse. Let the dollar go bust, I don't give a fuck because I don't have any dollars.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

Here! Here!

Fight The Cause - NOT THE SYMPTOM

OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution!)

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I heard Howard Dean say the same thing, just let the thing go over the cliff. Because nothing is going to change until then, they are just dragging this shit out as long as they can.

Lets just get it done and over with already.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

The heck with the victims. The poor will hurt worst of all. Does that matter?

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Sacrifice today for the sakes of later generations. I know this is a foreign concept to you boomers, but try it once in a while :)

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I can't sign on to a strategy that includes millions of poor people staring, and possible civil war. That is reckless & irresponsible.

In addition it is lazy, and defeatist. We can improve the system. The people united can never be defeated.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

What part of "You cannot reason with bullies" do you not understand?

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I agree to some extent but what does that have to do with this discussion.?

Are you confused?

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

Are you confused?

This redirection onto my personal capability to reason or understand is a confession of ignorance on your part. Personal attacks are a poor supplement for knowledge.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I don't mean to personally attack you I just don't see how your "bullies" comment relates.

Is there a website you want to refer to?

[-] -2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

I like what I hear from Howard Dean most of the time.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

But if it all collapses won't vastly more people by thrown into real suffering. More middle class will be thrown out of work, out of their homes, & into poverty. And the current poor would be in even worse shape. How is that better.?

I mean I hear what you're saying "I don't give a fuck because I don't have any dollars" but we can't strategize based on your poor situation.

I truly hope that things improve for you. But I am not supportive of the plan that says "it has to get worse, before it gets better". If it gets worse millions of people will be worse off than you are now. I can't support that.

No! We must work towards a solution that improves the situation for all Americans.

1st and foremost get money out of politics Move to Amend.

Elect progressives. Vote out anti jobs bill politicians

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

And who would those "progressives" be?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I don't have every name but there is Bernard Sanders, Letitia James, Jill Stein, Many others. Do you know any progressives.?

Are you for or against progressives.?

[-] 3 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

That's a good list. I'm defiantly pro-progressive. Just so no one confuses the faux-progressives (i.e. Obama) for the real thing.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Pres Obama is clearly a moderate. Many people bought the campaign rhetoric of 2008 as some kinda major change from the right wing path we've been on for 30 years. I been around (in NYC) almost 50 years so I ain't naive.

I (and some others) were smart enough to know that the whole country has moved right and a progressive revolution is years off. OWS has hastened it. And I am encouraged. But it will be years yet still. And much work. And some mature realizations that it's not likely change can come as quickly as we'd like. Maybe. We'll see.

So since I wasn't fooled by the campaign rhetoric I haven't been disillusioned. He did what I expected. In fact he did a great deal more than I expected especially in the face of the most evil massive 1% plutocrat resistance (thru the republicans) the world has ever seen. They ain't giving up power easily, no one ever does.

Elect progressives, Vote out anti OWS politicians

[-] -1 points by dreamingforward (394) from Tacoma, WA 1 year ago

Not to talk violence, but this is why I was arguing that deliberate acts of violence is sometimes the most compassionate. Where you do think history came from?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34975) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

You don't mean too - and yet - you do.

Talk violence somewhere else.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"violence.... compassionate"? That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. Sorry I disagree

Good luck in all you good efforts.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

Go read the FDIC website about how they handle defaulted banks.

but we can't strategize based on your poor situation.

Occupy is not here because of me, no red herrings please.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I referred to your quote. I don't care cause you don't have any dollars"

So if it all collapses what about the millions of people who will starve. Does that matter to you? Or just your dollars?

Collapse is a mistake. "Worse before it gets better" is too damaging to human beings especially the poor.

Why should I read the FDIC bank default process? Are you trying to say something or distract me.?

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

So if it all collapses what about the millions of people who will starve. Does that matter to you? Or just your dollars?

Stop spreading your fear and go read the FDIC website. Unless spreading fear is your goal. I don't buy into fear mongering, mostly because I am informed.

Why should you educate yourself, so you don't look like a fool trying to discredit me by insult simply because you lack the required information to debate the topic.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I am just against your suggestion to "let it all collapse".

What does the FDIC have to do with your suggestion.


[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

If you read it, you would know. I even gave you the important subject matter to this issue, so it should be easy to find. If you are unwilling to use debate as a means of self education, you will find yourself unable to grow in knowledge and as a participant.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Ok so you're not gonna make any other points.

But you have suggested "I will find myself unable to grow in knowledge and as a participant", unless I read what you tell me to read?

Wow. Well you don't have to offer an argument for "letting it all collapse", 'sok. That's is your choice. I have offered my argument for opposition.

The poor will starve, there will be civil war! So I am against your suggestion. You don't have to read anything to understand my opposition. No distractions from me boss.

Now if you have no arguments to offer against me argument. Then the debate is over.

I hope you take this as an education, a growth in knowledge for your future debate participation.


[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

As someone who claims to support Occupy as you do, you should know that the FDIC is an important part of banks, and bank defaults which have been a large part of the downturn. Are you really trying to justify forceful ignorance on the subject at hand, using me as an excuse to continue your ignorance on the topic you are interjecting yourself in. You are completely opposed to a collapse but you refuse to educate yourself on the processes in place to handle a collapse? And you think you can use personnel attack as the rational for remaining ignorant?

You tow the party line, you insist that society is dependent on the banks, and you purposefully ignore an integral part of the institutions we are protesting against. Again, why do you even bother?

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I don't understand your comment.

I haven't said any of that. I don't believe any of that. I am well aware of FDIC, Banks, Default, I don't know what party line you think I tow, but that is unrelated to our discussion.

I am not ignorant, I have not personally attacked you.

I simply said your suggestion to "let it all collapse" is too hurtful to the poor.

You are unable to counter my debate point. So the debate is over.

You lost. 2 comments ago. I've moved on. You should too.

Unless you have a counter point to make. (not a website reference, A POINT)

Thanks for playing.

PEACE, & SOLIDARITY We are not enemies, Be nice.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

Actually, I think we are. I think you're not here for your stated purpose. I find nothing you say to be inline with this protest. Simply saying "Occupy" and "Solidarity" do not make it so. You're a fraud.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

You think we are what? Enemies?

Do you think I'm a fraud because I don't support your suggestion that "we let it all collapse".

I can't support that idea because it will hurt the poor worst of all. I've been poor. It ain't pretty.

I don't know what "occupy" supports on this issue. But I think for myself. And I know that the people united will never be defeated.

Do you have evidence for this personal attack? Or are you still just trying to distract from your inability to counter my debate point that the poor would suffer too much under your suggestion "let it all collapse"

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

I don't know what "occupy" supports on this issue. But I think for myself. And I know that the people united will never be defeated.

Exactly. Yet you continue pounding on nearly one third of the population with your partisan comments. But you know this already.

I don't need to rehash our conversation, it's on the thread for everyone to read. If you edit your comments, it will only reinforce what I have said.. Lastly, the comment I am replying to is intended by you to continue engagement as I am a lose thread. I will remain a lose thread. This reply is not an indication that I am backing off of what I stated. You're a fraud and there is little that would convince me otherwise. Keep showing those media skills, it suits you.

[-] 3 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Corruption, deception, murder, and misinformation.

I think the kids of today know how fucked-up the world is, but as long as it leaves them alone to txt, tweet, FB, and zombie out to music, they simply don't care.

I'm thinking that most of this particular protest (#ows) is peopled by middle-aged souls who grew up in the sixties and seventies.

[-] 9 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

That's silly. Look at some of the video of the protests. It's mostly kids. It's up to us to be sure the kids aren't hurt trying to rectify the mistakes of our generation.

It isn't their fault the system is so fucked - it's ours. We are the ones who did not stand up when deregulation began its march. Not them. They weren't even alive.

Who can blame them for doubting that we have any answers at all.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

From what I can gather from the many efforts of researchers here (yourself included), the "system" has been subverted and controlled by organised criminal minds probably as far back as the late 1800's. Maybe even earlier.

The birthplace of our modern society was ancient Rome, and corruption and bought politicians were part and parcel of their culture. Didn't make any difference to the outcome. Maybe history is doomed to keep repeating itself? Lab rats learn from their mistakes. Makes us look pretty stupid, yes?

Sure there's lots of youth present at the marches and protests. Where are they now? Can you point to regular contributors here who you think might be representative of the youth of today?

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Um, I think you mean Athens? It was Greece where the concept of democracy and Justice seems to have been born - although they may have picked it up from the Hittites.

In any case, I'm not sure this forum is all that reflective of the demographic you'll find at a typical GA.

[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

Actually this is a fallacy perpetuated by intelligentsia through classical study; the birthplace of the America - if we are to label this as "modern society - was Northern Europe and the cultural ancestral ties that bind are far more Druid, or later, Celtic Christian; Romish is but an adopted aesthetic and little more.

[-] 3 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Romish is but an adopted aesthetic and little more.

Classical Grecian culture informs our institutions - and even our architecture - to their core.

  • "Satisne videtur declarasse Dionysius nihil esse ei beatum, cui semper aliqui terror impendeat?"

I rest content.

[-] -2 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

It absolutely does not and you should do your history; if it serves to inform anything at all it's academia's view of self.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

No? Whaddayamean, No?

What about the pillars? The triangle dormer? Agamemnon? The river of blood spilled in the quest for honor, for Justice?

What about Cassandra?

Don't tell me western culture is not informed by the myths told by the Greeks. Do not tell me our engineers and their engineering has not been touched - I know - I know there are those imbued with an insatiable curiosity, testing, to see if Cassandra might not have something to tell us today . . .

I know

And I think perhaps she will remain silent. Surely if she did speak to us today, there is no one here with enough sense to hear her.

Greek tradition, culture and mythology may not permeate our society, but you cannot claim it has not had it's influence on our culture, nor can you claim that influence has not been of some significance.

Or you can, I just don't think such a claim holds water. Such a claim is simply a bowl with holes - good for watering the garden, and little else.

[-] 0 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

I'm not talking about western culture, I'm talking about American culture - and much of Western culture, due to the breadth of our influence, is today American culture (and in many areas, much to their detriment). The ancestral subliminal core of the American cultural mindset and its ascent is NOT informed in any way whatsoever by the Greeks or Rome. Everything from the framework of government to even our attitude on divorce can be traced to unspecified pagan religions which had evolved into Druidism, itself eventually usurped by both force and influence, but largely by force, by Christianity, as it combined all spirits, both the good and the evil, under the One God.

Greece and Rome are but intellectual aesthetics, what they inform is not culture but character - certainly Washington had his Cato and the Dec has its Aristotle... but these are intellectual philosophical ventures, not cultural drivers.

Casandra is everywhere, she lives in all of us... but are not all eyes now on the Druid scholar?

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Ahh, ya GOT me . . . I had to go look up the term, culture just to be sure we were indeed using the same language . . ..

Which was of course absolutely silly - at least, I have not heard that anyone had so adroitly tied the thread of reason into such splendid knots before the Greeks . . . and now we do entertain our mental mastubatory excess to such degree that we may tie a whole universe into such a band of constriction that it becomes a black hole . . .

encased within a skull !

and once the collapse is complete, what is left, but neuroleptic malaise, a parade of legalese, and finally the needle prick, ushering the road to oblivion . . .

  • surely our reason has become quite unreasonable
[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

Absolutely not - do your history. Brilliant language, though...

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Yeah-ya - the last one is little more than grade school equivalent flash cards - but I didn't really think you wanted a bunch of references that were PDF files . . . .

Besides - you are just pulling my leg as you play devil's advocate. Of course Athens and Rome are not the only influences on American culture, but you cannot reasonably claim their influence has been insignificant.

that's just silly.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

I will read the Roman influence... but I have already made this journey, just as Jefferson himself did... we start at the beginning... what is law, from where does it originate amongst our people, what is the line of descent, what influenced... We are Celts by intentional design, everything is derived independently of Rome. Jefferson by the way employs an artificial aesthetic of intellectual fodder but there is no underlying substance. This applies right down to the words we find in the Preamble of the Dec, which can be decidedly categorized as Lockean-Aristotelian in nature. But a true and complete understanding of his words has defied academia for over three hundred years, it's defied them because they have not read all his writings, they have not studied his mind from the vantage of writer, or examined the progression of logic... what is most interesting about Jefferson is that which speaks so loudly in silence.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Hmm? What?

The Preamble to the Declaration of Independence is a very clear, concise, argument. It begins by stating the purpose of the Declaration: to present to the world their case for Revolution, and to do so out of respect for the opinion of mankind - and then continues:

  1. it states a basic fundamental belief - that all men are created equal

    • there are inalienable rights endowed by some higher power, or Creator
    • these rights include the right to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness
  2. Governments are instituted to secure these rights

    • the right to govern derives from the consent of the people
    • the people have the right to alter or abolish government when government is destructive of these ends - or when it no longer serves by the will of the people
    • that the people, having altered or abolished, have the right to establish new government, to secure their safety and hapiness
  3. Such an undertaking should not be attempted for trivial reasons

    • that on the contrary, light or trivial reasons rarely have the result of revolution
    • that when a long train of abuses demonstrates not simply a trend, but rather a commitment, a purpose, a design, with the intent of subjugation of the people, then the people have a duty to engage in Revolution.


Jefferson by the way employs an artificial aesthetic of intellectual fodder but there is no underlying substance.

While it may be unclear how much of the text actually belongs to Jefferson, and how much to any of the other five delegated the authority for the draft, it seems chock full of substance to me.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

haha... and this is why academia is so short sighted.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago
[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

There is no underlying Roman substance, only the elementary illusion of substance. But there is more... there are words contained in the very first sentences that academia has debated and misinterpreted for well over a hundred years now.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

The process of reason itself has its roots in Athens.

I am unfamiliar with the debate you mention.

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

Actually, no it doesn't. It has its roots in the evolution of the human mind. And so does logic.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I accept that as true - and I believe the Hittite culture may provide evidence of that - this does not change the fact that European Classical education has for centuries focused on the Greek tradition, if for no other reason than the fact of written records . . .

[-] 0 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

I can't comment on this any longer with a degree of accuracy... but I am of the belief that most of American classical study was derived of the clerical tutor and was primarily focused on language for the purpose of history and science. Jefferson felt that ethics could be learned in a closet (his words) and referenced those such as Locke and Stewart for logic. He was familiar with Homer but had a strong disdain for novels and poetry. Even so, he was not counted amongst the mixed bag of 99 (?) total delegates that attended the Constitutional conventions - and discussion there of form of government was very broad, encompassing all, informed in large part by the book compiled by Adams of the various constructs. I don't believe we'll find such works in Jefferson's collections, nor any reference in his writings. There was perhaps one minor reference to Aristotle. Jefferson makes a point though of classical language as a means to inform style but even there I believe most of American written form descends by way of those such as Mather, who had also received a classical education.

Jefferson also realizes this error when he traces the origins of American law; he was trying to arrive at a precise definition and determine why exactly it came into being in the first place. We are not of Greek or Roman ancestry, our cultural mindset was one of opposition; nor are we the descendants of Abraham.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

We are not of Greek or Roman ancestry, our cultural mindset was one of opposition; nor are we the descendants of Abraham.

I get that. You miss my point. Ideas are infectious - even if Jefferson was an exception, a lot of the higher learning that took place among the colonies from early establishment until the revolution was derived in some way from the Mediterranean region.

And I'll bet that by 1820 or shortly thereafter, what came to be called a classical education in the U.S. - and later Liberal Arts - spent a bit of time exploring Grecian roots of poetry, theater, law, rhetoric - architecture - I don't think there is any escaping it.

These early civilizations made contributions to that body of knowledge that informs civilization, that shapes it, and early on in many cases the primary source of English text used to provide reading education was the Bible.

You can't escape the Mediterranean influence, whether it be Greece, Rome, Judea . . . influence . . . it can be subtle . . .

[-] -1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

Yes, but what I have tried to assess is the exact measure of that influence; I believe academia has applied and ascribed a greater emphasis than our history reveals; it has skewed a cultural history in favor of an intellectual history.

To say that the cultural mindset was largely informed by Greece and Rome would be akin to saying the Non-Separatist Dissenter was largely informed by Calvin; it simply isn't true - very little was actually derived or retained of Calvin.

And yet it might be difficult to argue that the Puritan emphasis on reason, practical experience, and the measure of each and every biblical verse in light and accordance with the Laws of Nature in intellectual exegesis was not derived of the Schoolmen. This is reflected generations later in Jefferson's Dec, not as the product of Enlightenment but of Puritan hermeneutics.

The above statement as a deference to natural law lies in direct opposition to that which is typically presented, but the Schoolmen definitely had a presence that informed exegesis - the "Laws of Nature" are referenced repeatedly.

I believe it was you that mentioned the colonial magistrates. The very concept that a body of wisemen should sit in judgement is not derived of Rome but of the Druid, a tribal state rather than a city state; further our courts were not imitation of English courts, nor was Puritan jurisprudence - they were uniquely derived of Puritan creation which viewed the totality of law within a framework of five distinct categories. At the time of Jefferson, of course, Blackstone and others had a presence; this is a decidedly English presence.

I don't believe Roman influence was ever all that subtle; it met at the river of Germanic tribal opposition. This is reflected as late as the early 20th century in immigration law that sought to deny the perceived lesser of Southern European and Italian origin. You're saying we can't escape this influence; I'm saying it was always the American intent, as repeatedly recorded throughout our history, to certainly try. So I think that influence has been highly exaggerated by intelligentsia, and is just so much intellectual fodder.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Now this is an interesting perspective.

The only argument I can make revolves around the subtlety itself, after all, you know the old saying:

[-] 1 points by funkytown (-374) 1 year ago

haha... there seems no escape.

Nothing infuriated the Puritan cleric more then the suggestion that his intellectual exegesis was philosophically flawed or that his creation of multilayered doctrine, in conjunction with a rising humanism, might more aptly be relabeled in a more derogatory light as dogma. The secularization of educational institutions which began with William and Mary has generated sentiment that favored those dissenters less informed, less philosophical, who repeatedly engaged the Non Separatist, as the center of the economic authority, with thoughts of their utter destruction.

And so, well, enuf's enough and here we are.


[-] -3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Well Im 32, not sure if that still represents youth or not :)

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I'm 49, and I still feel like a late teen myself.

The reality is a bit different, though I still feel like I'm in my prime.

[-] -3 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 1 year ago

have you looked in the mirror?...just kidding. having not matured myself, i too feel young. fire back, i deserve it. lol

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

I practice the Taoist life-breathing, do some sun-gazing, meditate about four times a week, rock-climb and abseil about twice a month, and live on a mountain-goat block, so I'm doing lots of cardio just getting around.

You deserve better than you're getting. Go get some of what you need.



[-] -1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

The twinkle was as much for your statement as your lack of using the "R" word.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

o but I like that word . . .

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

Zen this is the most on target thing I've read from you yet. Good show man.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

wow - 9 points? That means there must have been at least, what, twice that many up votes? I mean, I know my detractors are legion . . .

How many bots you got, man?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

Really, bots? Not even my MO. I actually gave you an upvote.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I was being facetious . . . it's been a while since I had so many votes.

And honestly? there have been a few things I've written that do deserve a bit better reception - not that I'm complaining. I'm just sayin . . .

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

lol, ok. I'll try using the voting system more. It just seems like a waste of time most days. People seem to be voting on the person not the comments.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13336) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I am certain that's why I often get down voted - not that it matters really. Sometimes just saying something can shake shit up.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34975) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

So R U leading? Or just gettin ready to get out of the way?

Cause honestly Eeyore you don't really do things to inspire.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 1 year ago

Thanks for this post. It's good to see other human beings with a fucking brain. Wake up people. Protesting is just the beginning it's not the end. We have to do more than protest. We need a new vision for our country and this world that's worth fighting for. OsiXs has the best vision that I've seen and the only strategic plan to get us there. Stop camping out and and join a real revolution with a plan and a vision. We need smart people (Scientist and Engineers) to fix this mess. Politicians, lawyers and bankers have failed. I'm not willing to let them screw up the rest of my life and the lives of my off-springs. I'm for getting the smart guys to fix this mess. They actually think and create real things instead of lies and paper money.


U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

Non U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.2” at ( http://SaveTheWorldNow.osixs.org )

If you know the world around you is collapsing and you do nothing about it, then who’s really at fault when you stood by and did nothing? We have to stop whining and do something about it. We don’t have to live like this anymore.

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 1 year ago

I don’t like playing the doomsayer roll. But society as we know it is doomed. A financial collapse of the US is inevitable. It’s too late for political solutions. It doesn’t matter who is president. The people are so divided no reasonable discussion is possible.

I think the collapse will slowly occur over a few years. As things get worse the government will implement stop gap measures to slow things down. But when the US credit rating is downgraded, a few major banks fail, unemployment reaches 25% or so and the government support checks stop or reduced, then a major depression will occur. I expect it’ll be much larger than the 1930’s Great Depression.

At some time during this process is when the masses will stop being apathetic. Political ideologies will become less important. The people will support whoever can provide jobs and security. Only when the masses lose their comfortable, secure, lives they will really get involved. I expect there will some blood in the street at some point.

So, the short answer to your question is, Yes, things will get better. But it will get much, much worse first.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I agree, this thing is so messed up, so screwed that there is no getting out.

I remember at Occupy Tampa one time we were saying that at the very least, we had created a group of people who were proven to work together in an unselfish manner, in case things went totally haywire.

I think we are already in that collapse. The bailouts were temp fixes, and each QE loses some steam. Im guess shortly after the elections we are going to see a run on the markets, and thats where we are going to start to see some massive protests.

[-] 1 points by jbgramps (159) 1 year ago

Personally, I think when gas hit $12 a gallon or so it will accelerate the financial collapse probably faster than any other single factor. Gasoline is the life blood of America. A lot of people won’t be able to adapt, food prices will sky rocket and a lot of businesses won’t survive. Just my personal theory.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2877) 1 year ago

jI'm 46

Justice Party is your voice.

Long shot, but may open a few more eyes, and continue the struggle on a new front.

Good for environment, stop the wars, Rocky Anderson has principals: sought impeachment of bush for Iraq.

Also, recruit radicals to vote now. If you can make a good video or media that goes viral show how easy to register online, at least here, we have mail in voting.



[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Your right! If the extent of our efforts is just voting the whole thing is hopeless.

It's a good thing No one on this site has suggested such non sense.

No we are for protesting, agitating for real change real direct democracy. We will use every non violent means at our disposal.

  • protests

  • petitions

  • letter writing

  • phone calls

  • social media

  • voting as well (to keep the most damaging conservatives out of power and to elect progressives who might serve the 99% by laying the legislative ground work for electoral reform and improvements to the lives of the 99%)

That is what we ARE doing. That is what we MUST do. And the people united will never be defeated.



[-] 0 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago


Working less = unemployment fixed. It is unfortunate that OWS did not have the confidence to support this idea before, but it is not too late to prevent tragic election results (whatever those would be).

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

UE would go down but wouldnt peoples paychecks as well?

[-] 1 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

(No idea why your comment received at least four downvotes)

You weren't really clear what you meant here. In my previous comment I was responding to the idea that the paychecks of people who worked less would go down, and showed how this is completely not a problem if those people already have plenty of money by their own standards.

Full employment leads to higher wages, or a higher share of national income going to labor, so by that measure the paychecks of everyone would go up.

The last thing I can think of that you might have been referring to is the general idea of "how large the pie is". For example, suppose that a company sells consulting services to wealthy people in China. If they work less, we get less money from China and the dollar weakens slightly, making things made in China slightly more expensive. In this case, working less would mean a smaller pie.

But overall it's not a good analogy. Other companies also sell things to rich people in the US, this is what luxury goods are all about. German cars, Italian clothes, French whatever... foreign things are often priced higher. The pie analogy doesn't work very well, but when this money leaves the US economy the "pie" becomes smaller, and the rich people who receive profits from these luxury brands will be less likely to spend their money since they already have so much—which is what contributes to the global economic slowdown.

So, if we work less while other countries are all trying to work as much as possible, on average we stop buying expensive luxury goods while also buying more cheap goods from places like China. Since people would have the option of working and earning more, no one is being forced to buy cheap goods instead of luxury goods; it is completely their choice because they value their free time.

So your question was ambiguous and here are more answers.

[-] 0 points by Misaki (893) 1 year ago

(copying a comment from another thread)

It helps to consider "working less" in the context of this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/04/business/sales-of-luxury-goods-are-recovering-strongly.html

“If a designer shoe goes up from $800 to $860, who notices?” said Arnold Aronson, managing director of retail strategies at the consulting firm Kurt Salmon, and the former chairman and chief executive of Saks.

“This group is key because the top 5 percent of income earners accounts for about one-third of spending, and the top 20 percent accounts for close to 60 percent of spending,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Analytics. “That was key to why we suffered such a bad recession — their spending fell very sharply.”

Part of the demand is also driven by the snob factor: at luxury stores, higher prices are often considered a mark of quality.

Most of the 1% work; only 5% of them don't work.

[-] 0 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 1 year ago

As I have stated many times a large number of us prefer to sit on our lazy asses and bitch.It would be nice if you could just take a breath and have some empathy for us.Thanks for your understanding.


[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

the entire system is fucked and the majority of the people will vote to keep it in place this november.

Don't pay attention to the people running for office who want immediate troop withdrawals or the woman running for president that actually took the times to protest the banks with the people. Those people can't win they say. You must support the system they say.

[-] 0 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 1 year ago

The must frustrating part is that a third party candidate can win. The only reason they don't is the trance of "I'd like to vote for him, but he can't win"

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (34975) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

It's the result of decades of advertising - people are in the habit of choosing a name brand - the one that is pumped into their ears the longest and the loudest with the most frequent repetitions.


[-] -2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

tv sponsored by corporations that fund the 2 parties... that makes it easier.

If news media and ads on tv covered other candidates as much as the 2 most paid for... it'd be a different story.

Why do the 2 candidates with the most money almost always make it to the final 2?

Political campaigns remind me of corrupt churches like Olsteen... "We want to help you... We want to help you and we need money."