Forum Post: If the Food Stamp Program Was Eliminated, Would American People Step Up to the Challenge
Posted 11 years ago on Sept. 27, 2012, 11:16 a.m. EST by hchc
(3297)
from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
(note: to the handful of reactionsists here, this is not a post saying the FS Program NEEDS to eliminated)...
Would the people of the country step up to the challenge of feeding their neighbors? Would they donate to the churches? Would they do what is necessary?
I think they would. I think that people, when pushed, respond very well. I think the vast majority of people WANT to do what is right, but they are hit with so much propaganda from all over that it makes is damn near impossible to think straight, or even converse.
The fact that everyone in this country is eating crap at least once a day is not helping us to function and think our way out of this.
Would anyone else back the idea of turning the food stamp program into something more like WIC, which only allows for certain foods?
Isn't it fascinating that our food pantries are having a problem getting food because the "neighbors" that used to donate are now going under? Same problem. Keep the food stamp program in place, please.
I think the fact that no one really has to see any bread lines because the gov is handling it is a very good reason for what you listed.
How many people do you have still waiting for homes, hchc?
Tons, but its tougher for the average joe to donate a home than it is a few bags of groceries. Problems with bringing in strangers into your kids house an all.
What do you think about the corporations have simply subsidized wage increases through the tax payer through the food stamp program?
It was 10,000 in your county last time I heard. Is it still?
I think you should have paid attention to the Farm Bill.
And who owns them? The vast majority of the empty houses here are investment houses that were used for either appreciation or renting, and the rental market is WAY over saturated. Investors arent going to give up their home. Most were in over heads to begin with. And once the bank gets it, forget it. They would rather pay the taxes for 10 years then give it awya.
I heard it was 5k from a couple investors about a year and a half ago, Im sure its more now. The courthouse is doing daily auctions. Back in my hometown of Rochester, that wasnt bubbled up, they have an acution once a month.
You have about 10,000 people that need a place to live in your county and are on a waiting list? I remember a conversation we had some months ago. These people are living hand to mouth as it is. It is about basic needs.
I myself am waiting for the rents to come down. The rental prices sky rocketed. The point is that we have people that have basic needs that still need to be met. They cook in the forests if they can. There is already a great deal of stress involved. So, let's not take away or drop something that many desperately need.
I have family in Rochester. I remember that you have said this before. Are you Italian?
Haha, no Im Irish. But I have dark hair, and have had my nose broken a few times, so I guess I could pass haha.
The section 8 waiting list is about 10k. Is that what you are talking about? Im not going to go into what Sec 8 is all about, but its not exactly like its taking care of the worst off.
Oh, good. Every time you mention Rochester, I have this thought that flies through: Holy shit! Are we related? Am I going to wind up at a table at a wedding and realize that you are like a cousin twice removed?
No, Section 8 doesn't. However, due to the influx of undocumented workers for the past 20 years in Florida you are not just dealing with the downsizing and lay offs of the working/middle class folks-you have displaced those that were filling the jobs of house cleaning and kitchens.
I hope you're right but take comfort from the fact that the corporatocracy will never let the Food Stamp program go away. ADM, Monsanto, Safeway, Kroger, HEB et al. not to mention the commodities speculators are too dependent on government subsidies like FS to enhance profits to ever let them disappear.
So yes, Americans are generous, compassionate people, who have no power over our psuedo democratic republic. But until our corporate masters find alternate markets to exploit, government subsidies of their profits are certain to remain in place.
Read 'How Does That Work' at: https://www.createspace.com/3852916
now we're getting it - food stamps, welfare, all of that helps Wall Street. It's a bailout. Notice how it is not pulling people out of poverty or dependency? Yet the real actual things (ah hem jobs) that would and oh things like education and small business loans are under-funded and exorbitantly out of reach. Wall street wants us to be reliant, they want us to stay dependent. They fear and loathe upward mobility. Upward mobility means competition, intelligent populace, and no more hidden subsidy. Eliminate monopolies and open up entrepreneurship, educate, and the people will not be reliant any longer. That is how you get rid of food stamps. We have this viscous cycle of down-sizing over-priced housing, stagnant wages, and then we have to take even more from the working poor and middle class via taxes to fund the destitute. Taxes are being mis-managed, and job "creators" aka monopolies are allowed loopholes, and to endlessly downsize and out-source as well as trample small entrepreneurs and perform land-grabs as they make their way into the housing "business". Now the laid off monopoly workers have no where to go for jobs since the small companies got put under by the monopolies and they can't afford the cost of investor housing or cost of living created by the "investors" . How can this not implode? An economy must function in a circle - workers get paid, they buy; It's very simple. Now, workers get paid very little, they can't buy, but are taxed so others who lost jobs can still buy... And Wall Street marches on, or rather, all over us.
That economic circle is the zero sum equation that Milton Friedman couldn't find. ["An economy must function in a circle" - elf3] Conservation of matter and energy is another. The latter rules the universe. If one percent of the populations possess on average one hundred times the average, there's nothing left for anyone else. In what direction are we moving w.r.t. concentration of wealth with the financial class?
Read more about dysfunctional culture and economy: https://www.createspace.com/3852916
No dispute on the fact that wealth inequality is a major problem, but the economy is not a zero sum equation. If that were true, we would have to have the same size economy as in the 1600s or 1492.
Yes, growth is possible, maybe even probable. It's possible for a rising tide to raise all boats but that's not what's happening except for those who live on the rich side of the sea of wealth. More importantly, the instantaneous distribution of wealth is always a zero sum equation. The concentration of wealth function has a positive first derivative, so the rich are becoming richer while the rest of us grow materially and relatively poorer.
That is a zero sum game. It's the direction we're going in that's most important. Look at the concentration of wealth over the past forty years of conservative domination. Conservation of matter and energy is the zero sum equation that's trumps every idiotic economic theory that the right wing has ever invented, to rationalize their greed. The game theory they cherry pick to support their speciousness proved, in the 1950's, that zero sum conditions must exist for any number of agents. Check out John Nash.
The disconnect between the real physical world and the imaginary world of economists is something I'm well aware of. I also don't dispute the that the hoarding of wealth or over-investment does not help the economy. The production of real wealth comes from labor.
You have to dissect into the real economy and finance. The real economy is not a zero sum game but finance is. The real economy suffers from the concentration of wealth in finance as it leaves less for the rest. If you have no money, you cannot buy in the real economy, demand collapses and the real economy suffers.
The distinction between real economy and finance must be made. Does nitpicking an accurate portrayal of our maleficent economy do that? More significantly, the economy is all represented by a zero sum equation at any given moment. The criticism is specious and otherwise flawed. All and everything is a zero sum game called conservation of matter and energy.
I discuss the differences between real and abstract economy at several places in my book.
Read 'How Does That Work' at: https://www.createspace.com/3852916
For me this distinction is important, so I would not call it nitpicking. Within the realm of economy the conservation of matter and energy is irrelevant because the economy is about satisfying needs. In my opinion interest on money is the core problem:
http://www.naturalmoney.org/full-theory.html
I think we do not differ much in views, but for me the theoretical concept is important, and hence I make such distinctions.
Is the reason 90% of us must go in debt to live, that 10% have on average ten times or more the average net worth, leaving only zero and negative real numbers for us? Is life a zero sum game after all?
Reply on: Is the reason 90% of us must go in debt to live, that 10% have on average ten times or more the average net worth, leaving only zero and negative real numbers for us? Is life a zero sum game after all?
It does not have to be this way. It is the monetary system causing this. Interest causes wealth to concentrate as the poor pay interest to the rich. Interest can therefore be seen as a tax on poverty to the benefit of the rich. Money in the bank is backed by debt, so interest is a fraud that forces the poor into debt if the rich do not take the money out of their accounts and spend it [which they do not because they have too much]. The following example demonstrates this and also that interest on money is unsustainable and leads to crisis:
If someone brought a 1/10 oz gold coin to the bank in the year 1 AD, and the money remained there until the year 2000 AD, collecting a yearly interest of 4%, the amount of gold in the account would have been 3.6 * 10^31 kilogramme of gold weighing 6,000,000 times the complete mass of the Earth.
If you see the problem then you can see the solution. That is whay I have been working at:
http://www.naturalmoney.org/full-theory.html
Natural Money does not end differences in income and wealth but it ends the monetary system working to the advantage of the rich by forcing the poor into debt slavery.
san diego receives more funding in food stamps than it gives to the people
any store with an atm check out can take food stamp money
Charity sounds like a good thing, but in the end it only creates subordinates and superiors. I much rather have everyone have an equal shot at economic fairness in the first place. How about an economic system that works for all people, where profits are shared among workers more fairly so that people can actually live on their wages? People before profit.
I think the entire system is busted, and its going to get ugly soon.
My question is if the food stamp program was canceled because the checks stopped coming (which is going to happen soon) would the American people band together to help one another or will they act like the greedy selfish assholes in Congress?
There is still enough money in this country that this never has to be the case. Corporate profits are at an all time high. The problem is that the workers are being robbed and the government does nothing to stop their exploitation.
Im not debating that. Thats a given. Im saying that the way things currently are, we are not going to see any of the money and the markets are going to go into another correction. And people are going to have to start helping one another again. Im not sure our culture is ready for that.
Okay, I get you. Probably not. We live in a very individualistic society, we are not community based. If something like that were to happen perhaps people would ban together, but I'm really not sure. Sadly, ours is a me, me, me culture.
I agree, and I think that is at the heart of all of this mess. These people in Congress or on Wall St. didnt just magically appear. Art imitating life or vise versa?
Its like pulling teeth to get people to organize or voluteer for anything that isnt related to TV/Sports/Money.
Yes. Our sick society is at the root of all of our problems. I agree 100%. We couldn't possibly live in a more superficial society.
The market? The markets are close to all time highs! What are you talkin about.?
What will create this alleged coming crash?
The markets have QE priced into them. Once reality sets in, its not going to be so rosy for Wall St. And the shit goes downhill. Just like last time.
Teh fact that they are close to all time highs with 12% real unemployment should be proof enough for you that this is all propped up artificially.
That is almost 90% employment! Are you suggesting the economy is gonna crash because of the unemployment rate. I'm afraid that is unconvincing.
And you do know that these statements of doom have been made before every qe effort that has been made. How do you explain that things have only gotten better since the first QE.?
Unemployment has come down almost 2 points, the markets have moved steadily higher, we went from -9% contraction to growth every qtr since QE began, Housing is improving as well.
What evidence do you point to to show this stategy isn't working.?
Um, sorry but we were never at 9% contraction every quarter. That would be an all out collapse.
Im not saying its going to collapse because of the UE rate. Im saying that UE that high and the stocks are almost as high, should be enough proof to show its rigged.
Ofcourse things have gotten better since QE!! I would certainaly hope that simply printing TRILLIONS give an ecnomy a boost!!! Geez...
The bottom line is the structural issues with our currency have not been addressed. And its getting worse. QE just delays the ineveitable, because the congress is bought out and WILL NOT do anything to address the real, underlying problems.
You may want to look at labor participation rates instead of UE rates, it shows we are right where we have been. The "official" UE rate has always been a lie, and gets more perverse every four years.
Yeah UE is the most fudgable. Just yesterday they claimed an additional 400K jobs in 2011 which coincidentally removes the repub talking point that Pres Obama lost jobs during his 1st term.
How funny is that? Priceless.
Oh I never said every qtr was -9% contraction. It was only 1.
Well I don't know boss. unemployment goes up, comes down. As soon as congress cooperates and passes the jobs bills UE will improve.
I don't what crash you're talkin about but you also said you thought things would improve so I guess everything will be fine.
I think its going to improve, but not until the tax/trade/monetray/and foreign poliices are dealt with. This group of D/R is incapable of dealing with them, they are not funded by the people.
Congress can go ahead and pass the jobs bill. It just prints money and puts it in the hands of the counties. The Jobs Act does nothing to address the underlying problems.
I think what their main goal is, is to drag us into a slow decline into serfdom, with no reall outright flash points. I just dont think the markets are going to allow for that slow decline, because sooner or later QE is going to lose its power and then its time to face reality.
Wow. You are just one big debbie downer!
I can't say I have understood any reasoning you present.
Maybe you mean the unfair regressive wealthy leaning tax system we must correct. I agree. Maybe you mean the unbalanced trade deficit or bad free trade deals we have, I agree. Certainly I don't like lots of foreign policy, But our economy will endure all these major problems.
Monetary policy. I'm sure I don't like it. But I don't think about it much. What monetary problem are you concerned about.?
We are currently in a debasing race to the bottom with the rest of the industrilized world. Every gov serves only the rich, but has an aging population and has promised a shit ton of benefits and pensions.
They would rather inflate than deal with the issues that they have created. Infaltion screws the poor hard. Especially the poor in the rest of planet.
I've watched every socialized european country cut retirement and other benefits.
I expect that will continue until the protests against the austerity forces an end.
I think we would have people step up. In these dark times i've notice more are likely to help people by giving food and time to shelters. The problem is there isnt enough that can help
Once the elections are over, and everyone here looks around and says "SHIT!! We just rehired the same two slimey companies to fix the problems they caused", this thing is going to plunge into recession again.
The last time in 08, college schools were telling students their student aid checks werent there (it happened at my school. Everyone had to wait 4 wks to get it). And banks cleared lines of credit like a coke whore cleaning a mirror (happened to a couple friends of mine in real estate).
Everything is still on a thread, and everyone knows the problems that caused the last one are still there, and bigger than before.
Most importantly, the quick band aid of printing/stimulus is all done. You can only do that so much before it loses its affect.
People better be prepared to start helping out their neighbor, and getting out and into communities outside their own. Because a lot of people are going to have a hard time functioning with this upcoming scenario.
Some people would help others out... Most people would not.
Which is why programs like this were started in the first place....
Because people were not getting helped by others.
What would happen if they ended the food stamp program? You would see crime go up like nothing we've ever seen before. I'm against something like WIC. Keep it simple.
No because most people on food stamps live in communites that are located outside of areas that can afford to be charritable. Plus sometimes leftovers are just simply not the best option.
I agree.
I also agree with the original post that it should be more like WIC. Poor people who need food stamps, on average, have a much lower "health IQ" than those with more money. To allow them to just eat whatever they want with their food stamps is really doing them a disservice. I see a shocking number of people who have no idea that sugar causes cavities in their teeth. It is sad, but it's the truth. People using their food stamps to give themselves heart disease and diabetes are not being helped whatsoever.
'Cept, you can acquire food stamps while you are homeless. So, these people aren't going to have a place to cook and there are those people that are disabled and cannot cook. :/
Sandwiches and salads dont need any cooking :) Milk instead of CocaCola (although Im not so sure how great the milk is).
That doesn't fly. That is a very nice try, though. +1 for silliness.
HAve you ever heard of Eat Like a Caveman?
The trap is that people on food stamps are in a shitty situation. They need to think their way out of it, focus on things. And then they fill their bodies with nothing but junk, which is really shitty fuel for thought.
It is called poverty. Do not take away the lifeline.
Start researching the Farm Bill. So that in the future you have something to replace that which you want to take away.
But do you agree that it also pacifies the nation and reduces the chances of the people deciding that enough is enough and we are going to get some serious freakin change?
No. I believe that this method is targeting the powerless instead of holding those with the power responsible.
really? do you have any empirical evidence of this?
Sort of, it is from first hand experience though. I am dentist and a good chunk of people, especially poor ones, don't know anything about their oral health or health in general. Just in the last week I have had a few people who indeed did not know that sugar caused cavities and another who asked me what floss was. Very sad, but unfortunately very true.
fail
Haha what did I fail at?
"Empirical research is a way of gaining knowledge by means of direct and indirect observation or experience."
ancedotal evedince isnt enough to support a conclusion that is supposed to comment on a general trend.
Oh there is much more than anecdotal evidence that poor people have extremely low health IQs compared to the rest of the population. I was just commenting on what I personally see when I volunteer at the Medicaid clinic as opposed to my own practice.
If you simply go to Google Scholar and type in something like health literacy + socioeconomic you will see thousands of articles that back up these claims. Within in the health community it is universally accepted that poor people know much less about their own health than others.
There's no storage of opportunities to help any who want to or will, is.
I think WIC and SNAP are both "food stamp" programs just different names.
I think there are at least two ways to correct the current problems, one way is to form strong unions with government asst, passing laws that would make forming unions very easy and make them very strong once formed, and applying great social pressure on those that run our companies not to be greedy in their pay, this is what Japan basically does they spread the wealth at it's formation so there is less difference from the top to the bottom in pay. In Sweden they have huge differences in pay, but have a very aggressive tax system that taxes wealth very heavily and then they provide certain basic needs to all from that pool of money, either can work but just letting it all flow to the top and pretending it's just fate only serves to increase the imbalance.. and leads to collapse. .
You can't have it both ways: if you're going to create a society with private property that excludes people from the means of procuring their own food, you're gong to have to provide means for those who "have not". No man or woman owes another their labors when it's the earth that makes food -- not the ingenuity of some entrepreneur.
Or is murder and theft for the only means to acquire a right to live?
Or what, you're going to call them and post their info too? Wtf are you still hanging around for?
I think the more people get onto programs though, the chances of those people rebelling against this gov decreases, and thus its a win-win for the establishment.
True that, but then that's where the Internet comes in.
Hell no - we need food stamp equality for all.