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Forum Post: I still don't understand, how are you helping?

Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 9, 2011, 3:01 p.m. EST by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

My life is very simple, I moved out of my parents house at 16 to go to college. I worked my way through college, missing a semester here and there to make more money to continue. Through the years I have cleaned porta potties, drove school buses, delivered bread, delivered meat, mowed lawns, been a security guard and several other demeaning jobs to just get by. I have prospered at times and just made sure my kids had something to eat other times.

This to me seems to be just part of life. Most of us are not born with a silver spoon in our mouths but work toward a better life. Today I am looking out of my living room window at the 50 acres I own. I tend to my 20 head of cattle, have pigs about ready to go to market, milk three goats, collect eggs from my chickens and quail and get my place ready for a hard winter. I just returned from elk hunting, shot a deer on my property this year and look forward to church on Sunday.

There are only a few groups who oppress me:

1) Athiests - they try and steal my joy in my beliefs. The joy of Christmas and Easter, ridicule me and those who I fellowship.

2) Government - I had to pay well over $150 in fees to hunt on public land which I believe I am a partial owner. My ownership of firearms is monitored to make sure I am not breaching some sort of limit is too much or "threatening" my neighbors. My livestock is monitored, my children where removed from my care and indocrinated by a public school system which mocked my values. There is not an area of my life the local, state or federal government does not touch.

3) Every other group from PETA to the Sierra Club who only see their rights not anybody elses. I have religious freedom, I have freedom of speach, I have the freedom to assemble as long as it agrees with each of these special groups, otherwise I am a killer a user a beast an idiot. Even on this forum, make a comment disagreeing with a OWS and see how you are attacked. Having a differant opinion is not welcome.

I guess even though I have worked for everything I have. I take care of my family, taught my children work is the only way to succeed and watch them build their own personal wealth; and have nothing to do with corporate america, I am considered part of the 1%. Simply because personal responsibility is important to me; God plays a large part in my personal success; and I mantain F*ck is not an adjective but a dirty word and I have as much of a right not to have to listen to it as someone else has to say it.

216 Comments

216 Comments


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[-] 3 points by Saikron (24) from Charleston, SC 12 years ago

Hopefully public school at least taught your kids how to write English and that there is a wealth of science and culture the human race has sustained in spite of Christianity. Do you think you worked as hard as all those bankers that probably crapped on the value of your property and ran off with enough money to buy it many times over? I think you should join the 99%.

[-] 0 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

No thank you, I prefer to do things myself instead of standing and demanding my "fair share"

[-] 1 points by invient (360) 12 years ago

no one is demanding anything, other than to get money out of politics. If you want your democracy bought, then dont join the movement.

I am an atheist, I have read the bible, and I dont believe anything in it. Any atheist who bothers you is being unamerican at the least.

As per the public school comment, if you dont like what they are teaching there are many avenues to influence it. Look at the textbooks out of texas, who often have christian ideals in them.

Lastly, even if you are "attacked", I would call it the group exercising its collective ability to free speech, you can just ignore them and continue on. If every time you say something controversial you shut down, than how are your ideals supposed to be representative.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Your statement of what the movement is representing is one of many. Your will never get the money out of politics and even as we speak those in politics are reading the polling and beginning to move against the occupy movement.

I am sorry if you read the Bible you did not have the understanding that comes through the Holy Spirit. I hope you find for what you are looking.

[-] 1 points by invient (360) 12 years ago

Your first paragraph is rather disappointing. Are we not even supposed to try to make our government represent us... it is derelict in its duty, and we will be in ours as citizens if we do not succeed.

I remember reading about a neuro-scientist that found the region in the brain that when stimulated would give a feeling as if god or some other unknown being was present... anyway, perhaps later on in life Ill be reading the bible and that understanding will strike me.

[-] 2 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

The Tea Party elected representation that stood up against a Republican party and they have been demonized. The far Left has elected representatives who have fought the Democrat party and of course nothing was said. It is only those in the middle who only represent dollars if OWS is such an credible movement, organize work at the local level elect those who will represent your views. This stuff is hard and require someone to take a chance.

Right now the movement is being undermined by polls; polls are what guide the middle. Occupy Portland is going to be cleaned out Saturday at midnight, it is going to keep happening all across the country for one simple reason. OWS has no support from those who actually pay taxes, buy houses, and want their kids to grow up and have more. I am not meaning to be rude or sarcastic, I have met many people on this site some great some are real jerks, some really dedicated to changing things and some with their hand out wanting something for nothing.

You seem to be the sudo intellectual who believe themself cleaver but only has limited practical experiance in life and honestly believes what you are doing is making a differance while the real power in this world just laughs.

Best of luck!

[-] 1 points by invient (360) 12 years ago

I actually agree with that strategy. I am have been talking to people at my local occupy about becoming precinct committee people and taking over both parties elections...

I know I never look at a poll, and decide my views. I think the middle is less influenced on polls, and more on just being generally uninformed. As for the argument that OWS has no support from tax payers, that is silly as a recent poll showed over 50% of the protesters have jobs... and buy stuff on a regular basis, and there is that little known fact of 500,000 dollars in donations...

I am glad you elected me to sudo intellectual status. I was fine with just user intellectual status (you probably wont get this joke, others will).

I think practical life experiences are dependent on the individual...

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I hope you do get involved in the system you will make more of a differance. Great 50% of the OWS has jobs, one presidential campain makes $500,000 at one fundraiser. The point is, overall support for the movement is not widespread. Only a small number participate or support the movement and polls show fewer people support any portion of OWS. This is one reason someone like Mark Adams the Mayor in Portland, Oregon is cleaning out the parks this weekend. He made clear at the press conferance annoucing that he personally supports the movement but regardless they will be cleaned out of the parks and will be kept from occupying the parks beginning Saturday night.

Again, good luck

[-] 1 points by invient (360) 12 years ago

Kenny, I wish you well!

[-] 1 points by riku (1) 12 years ago

just to add on a side note, I love how both of you spelled Pseudo wrong....despite your remarks on intelligence ;)

[-] 1 points by invient (360) 12 years ago

You didnt get my joke...

sudo is used in linux to gain root access, thus the ability to do anything an admin could do... while user access obviously does not allow this... it was a double entendre meant for my fellow computer scientists.

[-] 2 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

You have a right to your beliefs and your way of life. No one is trying to take that away from you. If you have not stepped on other people to get your wealth, you are not the 1% that I fight against. The reason I personally choose to Occupy is because as a native New Yorker, who grew up in the slums and left home at 17. Worked my way through college. Just as you did. And got a job. That job was destroyed when greedy real estate moguls made bad decisions. Tons of jobs were destroyed from the real estate agent down to the secretaries of financial companies. I also had the misfortune and that I got diagnosed with a debilitating illness. I found a different line of work and am surviving.

I think the reason someone in your position has trouble understanding why people Occupy or support OWS is because you have had a fortunate run. There are many of us who are working hard everyday and still can't get ahead. Taxes are high, medical bills are high, rent is high, food prices are through the roof. Student loans are high because college tuition - even in public institutions is very high.

This is why I occupy.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

During all of this I watched a wife die, lost a daughter had several set backs in business. But I didn't give up, and stop living.

[-] 2 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

I think that you are misunderstanding a lot here sir. I work two jobs, I most definitely have not stopped living. That doesn't mean that I can not ALSO support those who are working towards a better future. I think you need to think outside the box and realize that you are in a small bubble. There are many many other people in this country that are not able to live as you have been able to. I also can imagine that you are older than me. I am 32, when you were 32, the world was a very different place. I think you need to put yourselves in the shoes of others in order to truly be able to understand this movement. That is afterall, why you posted your question, correct? To understand the movement.

[-] 0 points by happier (9) 12 years ago

Just wanted to speak to the age thing you brought up. As a teen in the 70s I was quite the activist in college...... I know the world is not in the best shape right now.... but it wasn't then either. We grew up in a world that assassinated a president, murdered MLK and RFK, riots in our cities, our friends were dying by the thousand each month in Vietnam, we lived under the constant threat of nuclear annihilation, the oil crisis etc, etc etc With each generation comes a period of hard times, my parents had depression and WWII.

It isn't a matter of who had it worse or who had it better than the other....

[-] 1 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

I don't doubt that. I think my point overall is that we all have to keep an open mind and see that the world has changed.

[-] 0 points by happier (9) 12 years ago

The world has changed but people really haven't.... we felt then just as you do now,

[-] 0 points by hahaha (-41) 12 years ago

And there is the standard OWS fallback position. Your hard work and self-detemination be damned, you 'had a fortunate run'. You were lucky and they were not. And THAT is what the OWS 'movement' is all about. It's tantamount to complaining about buying a lottery ticket that didn't win.

[-] 1 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago

Yes. That is exactly right. Only in this case the lottery ticket is Life itself, and the game that we've built for us to play is rigged.

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 12 years ago

idioit.com

[-] 1 points by ryancozzens (32) 12 years ago

I have a good job a college degree that I managed to get with minimal debt.

I would like to point out the constitution protects from the establishment of a state religion, yet it is fairly apparent that Christianity has become just that. There is no way an admitted atheist could get elected president. More than half of the republican candidates have claimed that a christian God told them to run for president. I feel Religion has a negative impact on my life (gay marriage, stem cell research, science education), but no where am i seeing anyone from OWS be anti Christian

The main reason I support OWS is the obvious connection between the rich and the governmnet. Wall street is not the only problem, but they are the symbolic financial center for the United States and it makes sense to begin a revolt against corporate rule.

Why did we fight the Iraq war? Why are we still in Afghanistan? Why are we discussing more drilling and pipelines rather than creating a smart grid and renewable energy? There is a corporation behind all of these things.

The movement is not designed to punish success. The top 1% pays lower taxes now than at any time since the Great Depression and if they have their way that will go down even further. And since a capitalist society will always favor the rich (they have more resources to create more wealth) they should pay more for the government that offers them protections around the world, sometimes acting as a private military. And anyone who tries to argue that you cant tax the "job creators" I would ask to explain why we are in the unemployment mess at all since the tax rates are lower than at any time in the last 50 years

We just want the playing field to be level so that democracy can work as it was designed to.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I don't think I can reply to all of the things you put in here, but I'll try:

The majority of the comments I receive are due to me stating something about my religion. Most are just ignorant individuals who wish to insult me, but it doesn't. Christianity is not the state religion, and maybe an Athiest should run, but it usually people of faith who do. There are reasons people of faith believe what they do most of it have to do with what God has said about sin and certain activities, You do not have to believe what God says, according to the Bible there are a few things God can't do or chooses not to do, forcing anyone to accept the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, is one of them.

There has always been a connection between the government and business. If you want to make a differance, work within the system, I hear your reponse now, it can't be done; the Tea Party changed the face of the House of Representatives by running candidates who won and stuck to their principals when major votes came along.

I question why we are still in Iraq or Afganistan, but I also question why we are still in Korea, Bosnia, Germany, Japan and a half dozen other countries around the world.

When it comes to energy, if there was money in it don't you think someone would be working on cashing in? The truth is there are no good alternatives. How many solar companies have to go out of business before you realize it is too expensive to produce on a large scale. There are billions yes billions of dollars which go into research every year. Not only here but in Europe, and Asia, what a boon to their economies if fossel fuel is no longer required.

As far as taxes, the top 5% of earners pay 90% of the taxes. Yes that is true. And only 48% of wage earners pay any income tax at all. What if the bottom 52% paid something for the services they enjoy. How about only $10 or $20 a year, how much more would the treasury collect. What about a flat tax, everybody pays 10% of their income, EVERYBODY. No deductions, no excuses, I make $1000 I pay $10; I make $10,000 I pay $1000; I make $100,000 I pay $1000. You say the movement is not trying to punish success, our current income tax does just that, by increasing the percentage paid in relation to how much you make. Make the rich pay more? When will you be satisfied with how much the top 5% pay 95% 99%.

You may not want to believe it but what makes the playing field uneven is the government. They have grown so big, collect so much taxes, fees, penelties, and other money from us that you are screwed before you start. To give you an idea I use to build houses, before I push any dirt start any of the prep work for a site I would owe the city over $50,000. I couldn't start without that payment, before I completed a house the city county and state would collect over $105,000 from me. That was passed on directly to buyer, do homes cost so much a big part is government taxes and fees. You want the playing field even, look what is truly being paid to our government, the waste and the fees which are forced on each of us. See what is required to start a business, and then you will under stand there is no such thing as a level playing field.

God Bless, good luck.

[-] 1 points by michael4ows (224) from Mountain View, CA 12 years ago

atheist oppress you? atheist are shunned by the theist majority afaict. (please disregard the stupid militant political atheist that do stupid things like complain about 'in god we trust' on paper currency and a 'moment of prayer' in public schools... they're stupid and militant... just brush them off with so many worlds)

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 12 years ago

Oh, and before I forget, Godbless you, your family, and America!

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 12 years ago

Well done!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-] 1 points by Redsuperficiality (96) 12 years ago

There is no god we invented them and now they are going out of style. Grow up.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. Ps 53:1

I am grown up and know truth from a lie. Best of Luck

[-] 1 points by Redsuperficiality (96) 12 years ago

No one who believes in god knows anything. By their own faith only a god would know the truth: by your own admission you do not know. Your faith in god means that not only do you not know but you can't know the truth. Secondly, faith is not a knowledge and can never be certain of anything if it is authentic. Faith, if it is true can only realize it is completely tenuous; that is, the only thing it can be certain of is that it is doubtful (only 'say so'). Thirdly, there is no god: you prove there is no god. How could god do anything less than god and here you are in all your imperfections. Nothing in the bible could ever come close to the truth I have just told you.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I am sorry you don't have the knowledge because of your self imposed ingnorance. There is no way you have had an in depth study of the bible. You have allowed others to tell you what to think and what is true. There are so many proofs that the bible is true not the least the declaration of the exact date Christ will be proclaimed King riding on the back of a donkey. The Gospel of Jesus in Genesis 5. It is not just faith, you can call it whatever you want you just don't want to believe truth.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 12 years ago

You are a selfish, uncaring man who only thinks of himself and his family only. You should pay more then $150 to hunt and kill animals and since you feel it is your right to do this, it also confirms what kind of sick individual you are.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Barb, think what you want, no matter how wrong. You have absolutly no logical argument, just call names. It is my right to kill animals, I also have the right to eat them. I have the right to own property and instead of asking anybody else to take care of my family I do it myself. Of all of the self centered self rightous crap I have seen on this forum yours is the worse. You honest believe yours is the only opinion here and that insulting me is going to further your foolish quest grow-up princess try some respect.

[-] 1 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

As a religious person, you should understand compassion a lot more. And be willing to understand that this movement is about helping those in need. Corporations have stepped all over others with their greed, gluttony, lust, etc. The nation is embroiled by the seven deadly sins. I see this movement as a way to stop it.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I understand compassion, and for you this may be about helping those in need. What it seems to many looking from the outside are mostly young individuals who grew up without any understanding of how the world works wanting something for nothing. I am sorry, but this will not stop it, the movement is being laughed at and those in power are reading the polls and will soon move against the protesters just like in Portland on Sunday. Best of luck

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 12 years ago

those are human conditions that cannot be fixed. the government was derelict in the duty to " promote the general welfare of"

corporations and banks have been allowed to decimate this country's economy and that does not promote the general welfare of. we must regain control of the government and start repairing the damage. this country cannot even afford to defend itself if there were a WW3. America is becoming a poor country soon to be at the mercy of other countries this is an important goal and the 1% will fight to the death to continue to decimate the economy for greed while this entire country falls.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I can't do this anymore. I have recieved so many responses that are so diverse some good others just plain stupid. Read what I wrote to everybody else. Corporations and banks do not create the rules the government does, you are aimed at the wrong target. Being used by those trying to deflect their own failure.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 12 years ago

i meant to say .. this protest is about regaining control of the government and forcing them to put the corporations and banks in check.

"We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution." ~ Abraham Lincoln ~

[-] 1 points by Droid24JG (119) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Everyone is demanding a share, but not willing to work for it. Because you have worked for what you have, you owe everyone else a part of it.
Very sad for America because this attitude is what is being taught to children today. Congrats to you Kenny.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 12 years ago

First I lived in Klamath Falls, Pelican City, Medford and a few other places in Oregon and Oregon is a pretty state. I have also lived elsewhere.

Here is something you may wish to consider.

This fight is for the future of the Country, not the past. Corporations should not be allowed to contribute to the political process. They were around when our founding father drafted the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and felt as follows.

Thomas Jefferson

“I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”

“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.”

John Adams

“Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or will ever do good.”

James Madison

“History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it’s issuance.”

Consider that these Corporations now have a greater say in the future of this country than you or your children and it will be your children that suffer the results, not you.

In life we make choices and if we are the ones paying the price for our choices then it is our due. If it is others paying the price for our choices then it is wrong.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

You want to fight the banks, start your own. Start a co-op which is what a Credit Union is get all of your friends to support it and you will have what you want. You just have to get all of the people to move their accounts to you.

[-] 1 points by rayl (1007) 12 years ago

no! you demand that the constitution be respected in the same spirit that the founding fathers intended. anything else is unamerican! our country has been hijacked by moneyed interests that do not care about america. my ancestors who fought in the revolution didn't fight for a country to be run by traitors.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 12 years ago

Obviously some people don't read their history and find factual information and some people do not genuinely understand the process.

The FOUNDING FATHERS made their meaning clear when they drafted the CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES and the AMENDMENTS.

Thomas Jefferson “I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”

Thomas Jefferson “If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”

Thomas Jefferson “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.”

John Adams “Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or will ever do good.”

James Madison “History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it’s issuance.”

[-] 1 points by rayl (1007) 12 years ago

thanks for the post!

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

No they didn't the problem is your definition of traitor may not be the one being used in the real world.

[-] 1 points by rayl (1007) 12 years ago

weakening your country for your own profit qualifies as a traitor.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 12 years ago

Why would I bury my head in the sand and leave the problem to others to fix? My ancestors didn't shirk their duty when they fought in the Revolutionary War, can I do any less?

Instead I choose to fix my country and you are of course free to pass the buck to somebody else if you so desire.

Here is my work, a Constitutional Amendment that gives the power back to the citizens, the backbone of the economy and the backbone of every country on the planet.

The Citizens of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA do hereby construct and present to the Congress and the Senate of the United States, this AMENDMENT to the CONSTITUTION, to reaffirm, Restore, Protect, Ensure Equality and to Secure the Blessings of Liberty derived from certain “Inalienable Rights” to Representation in our Legislative and Electoral Processes granted by the Constitution of the United States of America, the Bill of Rights and the accompanying Amendments.

We, the Citizens of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, do hereby find.

CORRUPTION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS; Money in the form of, but not limited to, monetary donations, gifts, promises, lobbying for and/or against the passage of legislation unduly influences and/or impacts the final vote. Resulting in the deprivation of the Civil Rights of the Citizen of the United States of America.

Money in the form of, but not limited to, monetary donations, gifts, promises, lobbying for and/or against the election or appointment of any candidate to office unduly influences and/or impacts the final vote. Resulting in the deprivation of the Civil Rights of the Citizen of the United States of America.

The results of any influence in the form of any donations, advertisements, lobbying, gifts for and/or against an individual to be elected to public office or for and/or against the proposed piece of legislation is self-evident and unduly influences the outcome of the Legislative and Electoral Process; assailing the very Democratic Process our founding fathers created and this very document seeks to protect.

RESULTS OF THE CORRUPTION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS; The result of these acts is an inequity in the lives of American Citizens, so much inequity that some Citizens are unable to provide homes and food for themselves and their families. The economy of the United States of America has faltered and America has been brought to its knees and continues to decline.

United States Judicial System and the Courts specifically, have failed to protect the Electoral and Legislative Process from these Corruptions.

PERSON-HOOD AND THE INTENT OF THE FOUNDING FATHER; The Founding Fathers' Intent, when framing the Constitution for the United States of America and the accompanying Bill of Rights, is self-evident in only a “person” may be counted in the enumeration, vote, hold office and possess “Certain Inalienable Rights”, this is self-evident in the language used in Article 1, Sections 2, 3, 9 Article 2, Section 1, Article 3 Section 3, Amendment 5, Amendment 12, Amendment 14 Sections 1, 2 and 3, Amendment 20 Sections 3 and 4 and Amendment 22 Section 1.

Amendment 28 - Electoral and Legislative Process Contributions

  1. A “person” is defined by the Constitution, specifically by Article 1, Sections 2, 3 and 9 Article 2, Section 1, Article 3 Section 3, Amendment 5, Amendment 12, Amendment 14 Sections 1, 2 and 3, Amendment 20 Sections 3 and 4 and Amendment 22 Section 1.
  2. Only a “person” may participate in the Legislative and/or the Electoral Processes.

  3. Only a “person” may contribute financially, monetary or other gifts, to a candidate running for and/or currently holding any elected and/or appointed public office.

  4. Only a “person” may contribute to the input and/or the creation, and/or advertising to and/or against any piece of legislation.

[-] 2 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I'll make you a deal, take the Union money out of the political system and I'll stand right next to you.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 12 years ago

This removes all money from all groups of individuals including, but not limited to, Unions, Religious Organizations, Corporations and the only people that would get to contribute to the legislative and/or the Electoral processes are individuals.

Does that work for you?

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Sure, you get the unions to agree and I will work on the corporations. How do we get in to the Supreme Court to make it the law of the land.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 12 years ago

Unions, Corporations, PACs and so have no choice with a Constitutional Amendment. The US Supreme Court has no say in this. We have a much harder target, the federal legislators so it will take everybody to come together for that single change.

That single change will give our country back to the Citizens by removing all the influence from non-persons. This means that if you wanted to run for office you would be able to do so without having to compete with a Corporate financed candidate.

This means that if you wanted to draft and present an initiative you wouldn't have to fight corporate advertising against your initiative. That means it will cost less.

[-] 2 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

See you are wrong, the congress passed a law that the president signed restricting what corporations and groups (except unions) could give. It was overturned and deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Pres. Obama made referance to it in his first State-of-the-Union address. It pissed off the court that the President would repremand them in his speach, they don't go to the State-of-the-Union any more.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 12 years ago

No, you are wrong. The Court overturned a law based on what was written in the Constitution. I am proposing to amend the Constitution so that other laws will have to be compared to the newest amendment.

You are also wrong that it was the Congress passing a law because Congress cannot pass a law. Every Law has to be passed by both houses, the House of Representatives and the Senate and then signed into law by the President.

Same thing with the state laws except it would be the Governor signing the law.

Amended: or be initiated by the people and voted in.

Any LAW passed can be contested as unconstitutional, an amendment is a different horse in the stable.

Amended: If you are referring to Citizens United v FEC it was a state law that was challenged and not a federal law.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

The Fineman/McCane campain finance bill was passes in the House and the Senete (which is known as Congress when you speak about both houses) and signed into law by Preident George W. Bush.

It was challange by a several groups and found unconstitutional with a 5 -4 vote by the Supreme Court.

Please don't talk down to me you are the one who does not understand what he is talking about. An ammendment to the constitution has to be approved by 3/4 of the CONGRESS (which includes the house and senete) and then is sent out to the states and must be ratified by at 3/4 of the states.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 12 years ago

Article V - Amendment

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

Where is the Court and it is 2/3 of the Congress, both houses or 3/4 of the states.

Next.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I did make a mistake it is 2/3's of Congress

...of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress;

I never said the court was part of adding an amendment to the constitution, I said the court overturned a bill which became law which was written by Russ Fiengold and John McCain passed through both houses or "The Congress" challenged until ultumately over turned by the Supreme Court.

They are two separate issues.

[-] 1 points by JadedGem (895) 12 years ago

I personally support OWS. I personally do not support gun control. Nor will I support rights for animals when people don't have those same rights! I support people's right to have an abortion or be gay if they want to be. I am a good person because I choose to be, not because a law tells me to be.Legislating morality just steels the thunder of those who would have done it for God without even being asked. Laws should not be made to favor one religion or another. This should a persons own personal decision. We should not seek to remove all temptations. Many people are republicans because they seek to legislate morality, they have every intention of removing other people's freedom. They just want control over what freedom is to be taken. Drugs would legal in a free market, no FDA, no prescription needed. You got bad well too bad meat, you should have sniffed it better. This space is for OWS, this space is not for Tea Party trolls. The Tea Party is not here on the forum to learn. They are here acting like crazy people and to convince people they represent OWS. Its a disinformation campaign. Come on admit what you were told to do here! Go ahead, what made you come here in the first place? What was your goal? Have you really thought threw the party line or did you just assume when all regulations were removed the 1% wouldn't try get your kids hooked on heroin because they are in the poppy business. They didn't tell you abortions would something you could buy because in a free market you can buy anything? Did you fail to read the fine print?

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

We have a similar background, in that we both worked our way through school and achieved a level of success. Your 50 acres may put you in that 1%, my income doesn't get me close, but that's not important. We're part of a group that seems to take responsibility for our life, work first and spend later. It's beginning to look more and more like the individuals that spent first and now want someone else to pick up the pieces are guilty of more greed then the bankers. On the plus side, I'm finding that my children have payed attention to what I do and how I act and that's turning into a stronger force then all the indoctrination in the world.

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 12 years ago

Kenny, I've got like the same story, except I'm a kind of lazy, go with the flow type of person, that learns social systems, infiltrates them, and profit from exploiting them. Basically I'm a proxy for Corporations looking to improve their bottom line by connecting them with low cost labor...I too am very successful, and I attribute my success to my faith in God and his obvious approval for what I'm doing on his earth...I wouldn't be so wealthy if God didn't like me...right?

[-] 1 points by onemoe (78) 12 years ago

A lot of people have worked very hard to see all of their stuff go bye bye when they got laid off by the company they had worked for for 15 - 20 years just short of actual retirement. I know a guy that had worked for Coca Cola for almost thirty years he was a very hard worker did a great job( had all the company awards to prove it) and got replaced by a younger guy making about two thirds the salary. He was not the only one. They literally got rid of all the high paid guys to increase profit or cut costs whatever, all he knows is he isn't working anymore. I am glad the gentleman farmer rancher thing is working for you. But you have a unique situation. As far as the rest of your rights questions. Every group has their agenda. You sound like a conservative christian type. Your type has gone to DC several times to make sure things you should be teaching your children are made law so that every one has to maintain that moral idea that they may or may not support. Don't want abortion teach your kids not to get pregnant, don't want your kids to smoke pot teach them not to smoke pot, don't want gay marriage well, don't know what to tell you on that one being gay is not a choice so I guess we have to accept it and grant them some rights to (marriage it's just a word). You know it sounds like we actually would like some of the same things. I too want less in the way of the government being a moral compass. Due to the separation of church and state it was never supposed to fill that role. But now since we think more of earning money than we do of staying home and raising our kids I guess some people think the government should keep their neglected children safe for them. You know I think it is not just of government that is broken. Family has been broken in this country for some time but no one wants to fix that cause it might get in the way of making more money.

[-] 1 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago

It sounds as though you found your fortune through the seventies and eighties, and largely in cattle, yes?

So... take the price of your education, and then times it by five, and that's what we pay now. Now take the wage you earned back then and slash it in half. That is what we are dealing with now. That is the problem.

[-] 0 points by getajoblosers (65) 12 years ago

...and lounging around in a public park in New York is going to solve the problem how?

How about occupying the universities and demanding that the liberal professors and overpaid administrators take a pay cut? How about occupying the polls and electing a government who will cut spending and taxes for everyone so that businesses can afford to hire you and you can afford to pay your way through school? Just a couple of suggestions.

[-] 1 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago

People decided, less then two months ago remember, that they had to gather to even begin talking about fixing anything. It has gotten so bad that the conversation has ground to a complete halt, and the only available solution is to gather and discuss, and make themselves as noticeable as possible.

You complain they haven't occupied universities or the polls. This movement started less then two months ago and already they have people marching on highways to Washington.

Have no fear... occupying Universities will come.

[-] 0 points by getajoblosers (65) 12 years ago

My suggestions were more tongue in cheek than anything else. I would prefer that these people just go home.

[-] 1 points by rayl (1007) 12 years ago

how about a government that isn't bought? lounging in the park has pulled you're string or is someone else posting for you?

[-] 1 points by rondabandy (5) 12 years ago

You have a right to your beliefs, and anyone attacking you is no better than the those they are angry with. If your children or grandchildren are laid off and can not find a new one, try to buy a home and are foreclosed on because banks are willing to be dishonest to make money running forclosure mills, they will be the 99% If they cannot make a living wadge, they already are. You should feel blessed as someone who had the American dream while it was still attainable. What this movement is about, is the big banks and cooperation that took bailout money and redecorated offices with it. it's about how those of us not established will never realize that dream.I am watching both of my fully employed children struggle month to month on incomes too low to ever buy a home. I'm sorry people have been rude here and I hope that doesn't stop you from trying to understand, Thanks for stopping by!

[-] 2 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

am sorry your children are having such a hard time, I have four and have tryed to help. But it seems they have gotten into trouble when they have made poor decisions. I am not saying that is what your children have done. My three daughters are older and married, my oldest had the most difficult time living in LA. One day I just went down there and said you are coming home brought my daughter, her husband and my first granddaughter back to Salem. Told them they had free room and board for no more than three months get busy. They really did I watched my son-in-law work crazy hours sometimes up to 19 hours a day, but he is young and could. They bought their first house about two months ago, a real dump, but they have worked on it every weekend and made it their own.

My youngest a boy, is attending the Naval Academy, his first year. I tell all of my children I believe the American dream is still alive, look at how many people immigrate to the US every year and many of them are able to achieve their dreams. Sacrifice seems to be the key, one of my daughters was talking about buying a new car recently, my only question was if they could pay cash. Well of course not she said I then asked if she ever saw me drive a new car. No she said, I then told her I have never had a car payment, because I was taught debt was the same as slavery. They bought a really nice used car cash It was still under warranty, with about 30,000 miles.

I know you probably don't want to hear all of this but it is all true. It is possible, even in this economy. May God bless all of you

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 12 years ago

Sorry you are not the 1%.

The 1% are the individuals that maintain their billions (yes billions) of dollars through unethical and unsustainable means.

This movement imo is about opening up ethical discussions on economic functions of society which remain largely ignored in the mainstream media, politics, and through most corporate activities.

The only way to correct this is to hold open conversations on what changes would be ethical and sustainable. If this was already occurring within the mainstream media and politics the occupy movement would most likely not exist.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

I honestly see any banking endeavor as highly sustainable. There is an immense pool of people greedily wanting to get things now that they can't afford. Investing in the production of the next shiny electronic toy also seems like it's going to be sustained by people's desires. I've seen several different numbers of what income gets you into this 1%, any where from $250 to $500 thousand, far from being a billionaire.

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 12 years ago

The 1% depends on which perspective you are looking at it from.

If it's from a world perspective most of the US population could be considered part of the 1%. If its from within the US the wealth of the top 400 people is supposedly equal to half the American population combined.

Banking itself may seem well and good however it works off a form of structural classism. And certain practices (fractional reserve banking, derivatives trading) exaggerate the problems caused by it.

The inequality we see today is encouraged and built into our monetary/political systems. So it's the system that must change.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

I just have never seen bank systems as the problem, I look at our own lack of personal responsibility along with a desire to have what others have without regard for what we can afford. Personal greed and envy seem to have been as much a source of our current economic problems as any system devised by and for this 1%.

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 12 years ago

I'm referring to the monetary system in general.

The banks are just a layer on top of the monetary system. As long as money exists inequality will exist because the market system that money depends on is inherently competitive.

Competition implies that one party wins to the detriment of another. So at best it creates a win/lose situation. (inequality) In an environment where there is scarcity I can understand this reasoning. People will fight over necessities that are scarce. So money was used as a tool to coerce individuals to perform activities they dislike in order for society to function. That was because productivity was low and human labor was necessary.

However, today we can create abundance through technology eliminating most of the human labor required. And when abundance exists, the supply of a product/good cannot be sold for a profit. That is, no money is necessary for a transaction because the demand is extremely low.

So mechanisms of artificial scarcity are created and maintained in order to keep money flowing. In otherwords inefficiencies, starvation, ecological destruction, inequality, and so many forms of corruption we see today are required to keep this outdated technology (money) relevant.

Money is an outdated system of permitting access to goods and services which can be provided abundantly through automated technologies. Unfortunately many won't understand this until a high test city is created which functions without any money.

In the meantime here is an example of an system without money: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

We see things differently, I see the monetary system as a an evolved means of barter, we trade skills, services, and things with each other. Inequality is definitely inherent in it, with value being determined by the skills or goods one brings to the table and how desirable those things are. The man that can fix my car can ask more for his services then someone trained to slide merchandise across a scanner. Doctors make more then crossing guards, both may be necessary but one skill set is harder to achieve then the other. It's not fair, but neither is life, we're not all given the same abilities at birth.

Money comes to represent work done by someone somewhere and can be exchanged for goods or knowledge. There is competition when similar goods or services are offered at the same time. Over production or saturation of the market will lower the value of those goods. Innovative products would have a higher value. Suppliers take on risk when they overproduce they loose, when demand is high they profit.

I watched the video you linked to. I had a certain unease that grew the further along it went. That feeling came into focus with the term used in the video to describe this system approach, "A Global Economic Machine". In it I might be well cared for, but I would be a part in a machine. I'd have to work when and where the computerized control system needed me. That's the feeling it gave me, I'd cease to be human and become just a part to maintain the whole. This system says it's "designed to take care of humanity as a whole". I see it as having bartered away free will an dI'm not sure what I'd get of value to me in return.

It's ironic to me because I see the growing trend in this country to have government take care of our needs and feel it is a major contributor to the problem. Too many people are willing to give the responsibility for their life up to someone else. They act like kids turned loose in a candy store and expect someone else to pay for everything. Not just the metaphorical candy they eat, but to pay for the consequences too. Their upset stomach, cavities and obesity. You may get your version of society when enough people demand a safe easy government womb to live in.

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 12 years ago

Ha, this is true. Many do give up responsibility. But that too is a product of the monetary system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwS04LRW6rs

That was an excerpt from the full film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w

Creating incentives for people to contribute isn't as clear cut as brow beating people into acting responsibly.

This addresses some common problems http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDEql7DHDIQ

More issues addressed http://thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project/faq

The problem with the monetary system is it creates artificial man-made limitations. For example the price mechanism can be abused and it is. Many CEO's make more than doctors. Also the activities in which people 'should' earn more than others is highly subjective.

In the monetary-market products are purposely made less efficient, less durable, and less user friendly so new products can replace them on a consistent basis. Goods are also duplicated by competing businesses leading to waste as many of these goods aren't even consumed. Oversaturation is not a fix, it is a bandaid as businesses will simply produce less of the inferior good.

Many don't realize this, but society is already caring for them. Money only gives the illusion that individuals are living a sustainable life independent of all the people and machines already caring for them. Very few are truly self-sustainable maintaining their own food, energy, waste, and health.

Your ability to choose will not be eliminated in a resource based economy because there is no one forcing you to perform tasks. It is purely voluntary. But I recommend looking into the video links to get a better understanding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=My8XFjkfi8A

A more lighthearted approach to explain the concepts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48SABKtrZcU

There are 1000s of hours worth of other material related to the idea.

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

I'm not sure I could take a full length video, lol, I'd be yelling at the screen. If I was thrown into a system like that I'd quietly try to undermine it. I've never been good when something forces participation on me.

CEO's and doctors get what the market thinks they are worth. An action we think is reprehensible, firing thousands say and outsourcing, may save a company tens of millions and make that CEO a hero to the stockholders. Sad but true. Part of it is the fault of every person that insists on buying cheap goods. Companies are stuck in a sort of trap today. They depend on growth but with developed countries showing less population growth they resort to things like planned obsolescence.

If everyone's performance is voluntary in your system, you'd better have machines do everything. There is a natural tendency for life to get the most it can for the least effort. Very few will do the work they are supposed to and do it properly. This just shifts the elite from one group to another.

Wouldn't be long before human nature slipped in and corrupted whoever cares for the machines. A palace coup perhaps led by the men that control the plug for the grand planning computer. You'd get your anarchists trying to free us from the domination of the machine instead of from the banker and corporation.

Human nature is what it is, we don't work from dawn to dusk six days a week and die of old age at 35 any more, but we're not actually grateful for that, we still envy those we see in a better position. Too many think the solution is to make things the same for everyone. Your system sounds nice but we're not all equal and we know it.

[-] 0 points by genanmer (822) 12 years ago

"If everyone's performance is voluntary in your system, you'd better have machines do everything"

Not everything, just the tasks no one would voluntarily perform. :P

Most of our activities as you mentioned have already been replaced by machines and technology.

No need to watch but these are some more examples of technologies applied to common tasks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwJaLFMf7IA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQDArhWznjU

Anarchists are opposed to unnecessary authoritarians controlling interactions. The system advocated runs via the people contributing to interdisciplinary teams. The RBE system functions similarly to how Occupy's general assembly works except these are technically trained people addressing technical problems. So it relies more heavily on evidence based claims and testing. Subjective disputes are still handled in a democratic manner.

The machine doesn't tell people how to live and can't enforce it since there is no military and no money to coerce groups to push others around for you. It's just a glorified calculator showing how many resources are available, what our rates of consumption/ production are, and what activities are sustainable. And since the point of such a system is to create abundance freely food, water, and energy can't be restricted as a way of coercing individuals to adhere to the system.

On a sidenote: 'human nature' isn't completely competitive as many people believe. It is just as collaborative. If it wasn't, government in politics, insider trading, and monopolies wouldn't be a problem as people would refuse to work together at any level. 'Human nature' in reality is a misnomer as most of our behavior is learned and it changes throughout a persons life based on their environment, both internal (mind) and external.

The solution isn't to make things the same but to collaboratively work out differences. In a competition there is no discussion with the 'enemies' and therefore very little means of developing mutually beneficial solutions.

Regardless of whether a RBE is adopted or not, we need a system that is economically sustainable on a global level.

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Here is the 2011 list of Forbes Richest 400- http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/

I did not count them, but it appears that only about 10% of these people made their money from "banking, investments, hedge funds" etc. The rest of them built good, solid, companies that Americans benefit from every day. AND they employ MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people.

Here is a link to some actual numbers. I'll provide more if you want me to. http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/20/news/economy/occupy_wall_street_income/index.htm

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- "Think it takes a million bucks to make it into the Top 1% of American taxpayers?

Think again. In 2009, it took just $343,927 to join that elite group, according to newly released statistics from the Internal Revenue Service.

Occupy Wall Street protesters have been railing against the Top 1%, trying to raise anger and awareness of the growing economic gap between the rich and everybody else in America.

But just who are these fortunate folks at the top of the income ladder?

Well, there were just under 1.4 million households that qualified for entry. They earned nearly 17% of the nation's income and paid roughly 37% of its income tax.

Collectively, their adjusted gross income was $1.3 trillion. And while $343,927 was the minimum AGI to be included, on average, Top 1-percenters made $960,000."

The top 1% earned 17% of the Nation's income, and paid 37% of the Nation's taxes. The bottom 50% paid 2.25% of the Nation's taxes. I consider that inequality as well.

http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 12 years ago

I wouldn't rely on forbes for accurate depictions of networth. Rockefeller is worth just 2.5 billion?? And Rothschild didn't even make the list..

There's a whole lot of credit out there unaccounted for based on that list of billionaires.

http://www.creditcontraction.com/images/affiliate/Great-Credit-Contraction-Liquidity-Pyramid-Large.jpg

"The top 1% earned 17% of the Nation's income, and paid 37% of the Nation's taxes. The bottom 50% paid 2.25% of the Nation's taxes."

A link that disputes that figure. http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Also, of those taxes paid how much was refunded? and what percentage of the nation's income did the bottom 50% earn?

On a sidenote: I pay my taxes but the income tax is unconstitutional because it is a direct tax on income.

http://simpledebtfreefinance.com/is-federal-income-tax-unconstitutional/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4jj7Cf7Lb8

Point is, the system is fubared and needs to be fixed. I'm not blaming the 1% but inequality does exist. It's built into the monetary system itself and it's the monetary system (and supporting political structure) that must be corrected.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Please explain what you mean by unethical and unsustainable means of maintaining billions. I am not trying to be sarcastic, I want to know what you mean and your idea of how this is done

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 12 years ago

http://www.creditcontraction.com/images/affiliate/Great-Credit-Contraction-Liquidity-Pyramid-Large.jpg

A little graphic to explain one part of the problem. Most of the wealth created doesn't exist. It is only obtained by inflating and expanding the current credit through unsustainable practices. I say it is unsustainable because the entire world wouldn't be able to pay back even a tiny portion of the debts that are created off of such practices.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOzR3UAyXao

Every single unit of credit represents debt. Money is debt. So if the entire world can't pay back the debts of a single bank if it collapses... our economy is in big trouble. This is because many industries are now interlinked and globalized. This only explains how it is unsustainable financially.

Ecologically the monetary system is unsustainable because it requires infinite growth in its market system in order to function. That is in order to sell goods people must keep buying stuff. This need is called cyclical consumption. There must be employers paying workers, employees selling products, and consumers buying stuff continuously. If any of these functions were to stop the economy would again collapse.

So people MUST have jobs to obtain money. People MUST buy stuff continuously in order for businesses to provide jobs. And businesses must keep selling stuff continuously in order for employees to make a stable income.

But what isn't factored into the cyclical consumption cycle are two things. Technological unemployment, automated machines replacing people because they perform the jobs better and abundance. By abundance I refer to supply and demand. If there's an oversupply people won't pay for the product. e.g. No one sells air. Through advanced technologies the production capability has made it possible to create abundance of many many goods. So companies must create artificial scarcity in order to sell their products. e.g. crop destruction, produce inferior quality goods, technologies are suppressed, inferior designs, create extremely high prices, etc.

So the highest quality, longest lasting, easily upgradeable products and services are never made available because such products would crash the monetary system. But in the meantime all the inefficiencies artificially created cause a tremendous amount of waste. They cause waste both in obtaining resources to create the product, and shortly afterwards when the product is trashed into a landfill. Ecological destruction is just a byproduct of the current system. And finite resources will continue to dwindle until a new scarce alternative is introduced into the market. This however risks an ecological collapse.

Anyways, I don't blame the people specifically. They are just a product of a system designed to encourage inequality. In order to make and maintain a ton of monetary wealth you must be able to capitalize on inefficiencies and problems. Major problems are profitable in the current system which is exactly why they are perpetuated and very rarely fixed. War for example is extremely profitable for military industries. The 'its just business' or 'I'm just following orders' lines are prime examples of this reasoning.

Some common examples most people will remember are enron, bernie madoff, and the banking bailouts. All three situations occurred because of corruption embedded within the system. They are not a few bad apples isolated from the system. The system itself encourages such behaviors.

This movie goes into detail about other issues caused by the current system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w

Another site displaying the wealth distribution: http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

These are just a few examples of many areas which must be discussed openly.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Thank you for your detailed reply. It is very good best wishes.

[-] 1 points by JohnsonJaimes (260) from Sanibel, FL 12 years ago

I guess you have all the answers. How did you get to the top of your pedestal without help?

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Work, sometime two jobs at a time. Eating katsup soup, or nothing at all, water has always been free. Saving money, in a bank, investing, and being paid for that investment. Staying married for almost 33 years. But most of trusting in God would do what He promised. Really not that hard, never said I didn't have help, just never sat around crying with my hand out screaming IT'S NOT FAIR! I'd bet you could even do it with a little effort.

[-] 1 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

You are very lucky if you do not have a water bill. Water is not free in my county.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I have a well, I guess I didn't think those who pay cities for water or those who won't drink from the fauset.

[-] 1 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

In my county, there is a meter attached to your house. It measures the amount you use, whether it's drinking water, flushing water, shower water, dishwasher water. You are charged per usage.

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

It is the same here if you don't live in the country and have a well. I pay for water, too.

[-] 1 points by JohnsonJaimes (260) from Sanibel, FL 12 years ago

Wow, you know nothing about me, but you have already judged me. I am a self employed business man myself, work VERY hard to to keep up, but unfortunately I am in the construction trade. Doesn't your Book tell you to judge not, lest ye be judged?

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I never judged you. You asked a sarcastic question and I gave you an answer. How I have done it.

[-] 1 points by Idaltu (662) 12 years ago

"Forum Post: I still don't understand, how are you helping?" Sorry there is no cure for stupidity.

[-] 0 points by hahaha (-41) 12 years ago

I bet you know that well.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 12 years ago

He's trying to educate. The reality is that human desire is evolutionary.... and so are our gods as born of some more archaic human form. As a serious student of science, evolutionary psychology, history with a minor focus on such things as genealogy, I can tell you one thing for absolute certain: those who are marginalized do not produce descents; within three generations they are gone.

[-] 1 points by buik (380) from Towson, MD 12 years ago

i never said i was helping. i help but i dont brag about it.

you could never understand how i help in a million years, anyway

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Why not try me you never know

[-] 1 points by buik (380) from Towson, MD 12 years ago

i will try you, sir.

i will sample the goods, i will explore your berry

[-] 1 points by wouldstronglypreferjustice (35) from Portland, OR 12 years ago

With all due respect, do you mind if I ask your race?

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I am white what about you

[-] 1 points by wouldstronglypreferjustice (35) from Portland, OR 12 years ago

same- and listen, I have read your comments and I totally respect where you are coming from and appreciate the work and though you are putting into this forum. I am a christian as well - I love Jesus. I have had to reevaluate the benefits that have come my way because I am a white man, however. I have also had to evaluate my own success and realize that, while I have worked really hard and had some success, I have lost faith in our country.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I have lost faith in what it is now not in what it was ment to be. If you truly love Jesus remember, this is all temporary. It is hard in the middle of the storm to ignore the waves and all of the distruction going on around you. Remember Peter walked on the water, he did the impossible until he took his eyes off of Jesus. The he began to sink. We have all be there, like many I lost a great deal of my retirement with the crash, and I had to re-evaluate many things but the only secure and steady thing in my life was the same God who took me through when I lost a daughter, had a failed business, and had to go through a very public bankrupsy. We all have failures this world will have many more, but God is still on his throne and His promises will always be true.

Rescue me from my enemies, O LORD, for I hide myself in you. Ps 143:9

[-] 1 points by wouldstronglypreferjustice (35) from Portland, OR 12 years ago

Yes, I agree, and I would also say that we are called to recognize and speak out against injustice.

[-] 1 points by LobbyDemocracy (615) 12 years ago

First of all I would like to thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. I think it is important to remember that there are many different perspectives that make up the 99%. Although I think many of the objections of Occupy Wall Street are shared by a great number of the 99%, simply calling yourself the 99% does not make you the 99%.

In response to the title of your post, I think the greatest thing that OWS has done and will do is simply draw attention to issues that need to be considered. Issues like income disparity, tax code equity, and financial reform have risen to the forefront.

I think it is important that there is a lot of other work that needs to be accomplished to make change in these areas real, and find true representation for the 99%. It is in response to this that I have opened up an organization to represent the perspectives of the majority. We acknowledge that the majority do not have one belief or perspective. We will poll our membership to see what issues we do agree with and support any issue that draws 65% support or opposition. We will contact all of our elected leaders with the perspectives of the majority, and enable our elected leaders to write back to their constituents. This process does not have a predetermined outcome. We do not know what issues we will represent. We are simply here to represent the perspectives of the majority.

I think that the OWS and other tangent organizations like my own have the possibility of creating a system in which the policies of our government are driven not by a small group of elite, but rather by the majority of us.

If you are interested, please check out www.lobbydemocracy.com. Either way I wish you well, and hope that the winter is not too hard.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Wonderful response! I do believe most of the issues were already being addressed. You must remember you will never break through "The Golden Rule - He who has the gold, rules". Many of the problems were not problems when they were managed locally. Government has gotten too big. Attack what is causing the problem, keep all government local. Return all education, enviroment, medical and commerce to local control. Then you have to look into the eyes of the people you lie to, it makes a differance. When I was a boy, my father knew every person in the bank. They wanted his business even if it were a small savings account. That bank today is owned by Chase. Make them be responsible to their communities and things will change.

[-] 1 points by Harper (13) 12 years ago

"The Golden Rule - He who has the gold, rules".

This is capitalism: he who has capital, has power. It's not the only system humans have ever lived under, nor will it be. Communism is not the only alternative.

We are helping, I think, partly by holding banks such as Chase responsible for their egregious faults. And partly by discussing alternative ways to live. This 'golden rule' does not apply in Zucotti Park, and by itself that's something of a small miracle.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I know, how many people are living there, what are they producing, are they living without donations. Thoughout history experiments have been done with Co-opertives. Not many of them around any more. Let me know when all of New York City, Oakland, Boston, Portland works.

Please understand, I am not trying to belittle you just be honest. That is why I

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

I'm pretty sure true atheists have not oppressed you. Generally that works the other way around. Atheists may challenge your beliefs, they may even ask you tough questions... but all of us still wake up on Christmas morning and celebrate with our families... we just celebrate our families, not Christ. If atheism threatens you, that is your issue really. Point is, no one is taking away Christmas... or your joy of it... so how, exactly, do they oppress you?

You are free to homeschool. You are free to hunt on your own 50 acres... or any private land with permission... and you obviously own guns, how many do you think you need, exactly?

Hey, I'm with you on PETA, however, they weren't harassing me the last time I bought a fat steak from the store. Honestly, they don't care what you're doing. They raise their money, they yell at celebrities... but you? You don't even register on their radar... and they certainly aren't changing any laws preventing you from hunting or buying meat and furs... so how, exactly, do they oppress you?

And you're only the 1% if you're rich. Monetarily. God has nothing to do with it. Neither does government... or curse words.

Funny how I came here because your header lead me to believe I would find a like minded individual. Interesting how things play out.

[-] 0 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Yeah it's funny because I thought someone who would take the time to respond to what I said would really look at the harm political correctness has done to our society. How if you are rich, it's not a bad thing. Those who call themselves the 99% really only represent the thinking of a very small percentage of the country.

But most of all, God has everything to do with it, that the church fights one day at a time to improve peoples lives, giving them a sence of hope, belonging, a purpose. That government has become centralized, that our constitution which was ment to limit government is used to help it expand. And mostly cursing, that is a gauge of how we treat each other, how it is a gauge on inteligence, how words mean something and the lack of vocabulary most "educated" people have to draw.

I know things are "playing out" the lowest portions of our societies are emerging as "the norm".

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

I agree with most of what you just said. Overall. I have nothing against the rich. I am not a protester... and I can say with a great deal of certainty at this point that these people do not speak for me. I'm not even sure they speak my language.

I have chastised folks here for not being able to express themselves without swearing or name calling. It makes them look desperate, angry and illogical.

As far as god... for most, it provides an excellent moral compass and absolutely gives hope when hope can't be found within one's self. I do not begrudge you your beliefs, you will never find me ridiculing the spiritual person, short of the few who ridicule others in the name of religion.

All I was saying is: I have many atheist friends, I myself, lean very far that direction... and none of us, not one, oppress those who have religion. More often than not, the truth of the matter is, we are looked upon as lesser beings, less whole, less moral than the religious are.

To me, that is the definition of oppression. And in the sense you quoted your oppression in your original post, I feel you are way off base.

Your final statement alone, "the lowest portions of our societies are emerging as 'the norm'"... reeks of oppression in and of itself.

[-] 0 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Two words: Bill Mahar

[-] 1 points by ryancozzens (32) 12 years ago

What is bill mahr doing to hurt you? Cracking a few jokes, dont watch.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I don't cancelled my HBO subscription due to his show. But he is all over the news hard not to see him or his ignorant comments.

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

Bill Maher has something of value to say, yes.

[-] 0 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Bill Maher is a rude, mean spirited person who gets to insult and belittle people at will. You may find value in his words I find he is ignorant about he claims to know, making money off of those who choose to remain as ingnorant as he.

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

I suppose you prefer Glenn Beck?

I'd bet my paycheck you do.

Who is the same horse, only a different color.

[-] 0 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Well at least he tells the the truth. You must not listen to Glenn Beck you at least hear those he disagrees with condem themselves with their own words

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

Riiiiiiiight.

Glennie boy couldn't see past his money to stop bragging about how he's not bragging about his money long enough to have an honest conversation with someone he thinks he might want to condemn to have any concept of truth... beyond his own warped version, that is.

But that's ok. There's a whole world full of puppets who drink up his drivel. He, of course, wouldn't have all that money to brag about not bragging about without you.

The close-mindedness Glenn ( or Fox "Faux" News in it's entirety) represent will be the ultimate demise of this country... should it become the "norm", as you say.

Good luck to you and your little world. You're missing out on an infinite amount of beauty you are programmed not to see.

Atheists are ok, you know... not the scourge of the earth, contrary to what you've heard on TV. So are gays, for that matter. And chicks who had an abortion. And divorcees. And people who don't hunt, watch NASCAR or eat meat.

There's a place for everyone in this world. Period. Get used to it.

[-] 0 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

II had this whole argument, but I erased it, you are not going to listen think about it or check it out. You accuse me of being closed minded, but you stay within your little circle of those who agree with you and preach back and forth to each other. You know nothing about Fox, you have never watched or listened, your friends just tell you what you should think.

My world is so much larger than you could ever know. I have done things and seen things you can not even imagine. You place me in a box as biggiot but the real biggiot is you. I love and care for those who are gay, young women who have had abortions, was divorced myself.

I wish you well but I wish more you actually break out of the very small world you rotate in and realize you are not as smart or cleaver as you think. May God Bless You. He will knock on the door of your heart maybe someday you will open the door.

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

Don't presume to know me.

I have spent many a night yelling back at Fox News, thank you. I have watched. And listened. And gone to bed furious that people believe the poison being fed to them on that channel.

In recent news: "Our blacks are so much better than theirs"...

And yes. I know the context that was taken from (I actually watched it... my son loved the rant that Foxism induced from me) and it reduces the ignorance by exactly zero.

My mother was very religious, and one of the most beautiful people I've ever known. She educated me in every way she knew regarding Jesus and god. I grew up in the church. I have read the bible cover to cover. I understand this world, I respect it... and I see beyond it.

However, I have many friends who love Jesus. I love them as much as my atheist friends. We discuss politics and religion... and no one has ever, not once, accused me of being a bigot (and the word is actually "bigot", just FYI)... until today, that is.

I have traveled, I have gone to college, I have read more than just the bible, I have met and engaged with people from all walks of life.

I am as clever as I think, thank you. I have no use for god to come knocking on my door, I am well grown and do just fine without him. I have a deep moral core, I treat those as I would wish to be treated, I respect nature and life. And I do it all because it is the right thing to do, not because any god said I should... or because I fear for the state of my immortal soul.

However, if he should come knocking? Show up all in his white robe and angels singing "AAAAHHHH" in the background? I'd drink a cup of joe with him, sure. He'd be a hoot to chat with.

Save your wishes and prayers for someone who really needs it. I'm ok, my heart is open to everyone. It burns me more often than not, but I continue to love anyway. My heart, believe it or not, is even open to you... despite the fact that you think you are, as I said in one of my very first posts, more complete as a human being than I am. I mean, how could I ever be whole and happy without god in my heart, right?

Ah. And I love it when my points come 'round full circle.

[-] 0 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

And what was Ann Coulter's point, you don't know, I can read headlines also. You take one line out of a opinion show and use that as your basis for dislike of Fox News. I guess I should use Ed Schultz who just plain lies, and use that to characterize MSNBC.

As far as God, you will recieve my prayers, you do need them. I am sure your Mother spent alot of time on her knees from the way you said it, it sound like you lost her. I will just pick-up where she left off.

I know you don't believe but we will find the truth at death won't we.

[-] 1 points by Idaltu (662) 12 years ago

At a personal level I have never been oppressed by anyone or any group. I guess I am just luckier than you. Its nice to see the 1% posting here. Shows that OWS is not biased. Have a wonderful day.

[-] 1 points by Spankysmojo (849) 12 years ago

Although I agree with your sentiment I think the 1% are on a yacht eating caviar not collecting eggs and eating the deer they hunt.

[-] 1 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

this is very true. the 1% that hoards all the cash wouldn't know a thing about how to actually live off the land.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

did you ever take the time to learn your history or your nation's foreign policies. did you ever learn that the prosperity you were able to achieve was built on the backs of many people. that we are headed back to the Guilded age because we as a political machine never learned anything from the Guilded age, but instead globalized the world. Do you know that that action allowed us to be a debtor nation, just like Germany when Hitler came into power. or like the USSR was when it imploded. there are a thousand reasons why people are discontent, and it an't just about your prosperity.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Yes, I know history and that it can not be changed. The differance is you think you can "make-up or make-right" you can't. Work with what you have now, make a differance. I would not change anything by giving up my meger belongings neither will anybody change anything by taking what is mine.

Maybe you should read more about the Russian revolution, they went from the monachy to a central committee. Nothing really changed just who was in charge.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

dude, i hope I am not wasting my energy replying to a child, but here goes: there is no faith in the market we were sold a bad bill of goods. know one feels comfortable trusting any major business venture, until confidence returns we will stagnate as a country. and as long as people suggest the same, stale ass come backs, i'e. If you don't like it move, we will continue to stagnate. and yes, something did change in Russia they are an oligarchy now, just like us

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Look I tell you can't be over 15 just by your using "dude". I will try and go slow just for you. You can not build anything with out work! You hear from OWS that we have to take from those who have and give to those who have nothing. Well you are not going to get anything or keep anything by camping in a park.

I guess I went too far back into history with the referance to Russia. You see: Once upon a time, the land of Russia was ruled by a Tsar (Zar). They were royal families that ruled the entire land without question. The last family or dynasty were the Romanov' who ruled Russia from 1613 until 1917. Now the Tsars were not always nice people and in fact people all over the country worked most time to jus support the monachy or the King and all his family. So people who didn't like them protested telling all of the people things would be more fair if all the money was spread around to everybody, and everyone was equal. These people were called bolshevik, who believed the state, which is suppose to be the people, owned everything equal. But, they lied. After they took over from the king, the only people who were equal were those who were "in-charge" they had alot of money and food and heat, stuff that makes life more comfortable. But all of the other people, the ones that joined them in the streets, many of them died because services that provided food, and heat and basic necessities were not there anymore. If you didn't like what the guys in charge did, you could be killed just for trying to support your family. And then they lied to the world putting up fences not so no one could get in, no so nobody could get out.

If you want to know history go back further, what OWS is doing has been done many places, it has given us more poverty, leaders such as Stalin, Nepolian, Che, Pho Pot, all who killed millions. Learn history learn what the heros of the sixties are doing now. Most rich, or in a government office, there is a way of making changes taking to the streets only seems to work.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

Well, if thinking i'm fifteen makes you feel better, so be it. Let me add also what protesting has gotten us. It ended the Vietnam war, gained us better civil rights, universal suffrage and shorter work hours, and that is just off the cuff. don't hate on me because i like the working class lingo, dude.

[-] 1 points by Vooter (441) 12 years ago

What exactly does your post have to do with the fact that private companies (the banks) received public money (the bailouts) to keep their private companies from collapsing, which is exactly what a failing company SHOULD do under a capitalist system? What does your post have to do with the fact that bankers not only took mortgages that they KNEW were junk, fraudulently repackaged, promoted and sold them as AAA securities, and then shorted those securities because they knew they were junk and were going to collapse (all the while passing them off as triple AAA) but that NONE of those bankers went to jail for the FRAUD they committed. What does the fact that you worked hard have to do with bankers committing crimes and not being punished for those crimes?

[-] 2 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Nothing, this economy is not built on the banks. The government told mortgage companies they had to extend sub-prime mortgages. You want to send someone to jail, try Dodd and Frank and all of the others in power who gained from the fraud. Don't blame someone for doing something legal, blame those who were in charge who didn't care.

[-] 1 points by bikeclub (2) 12 years ago

Thank you for your post(s) and for engaging the conversation. I do blame the politicians, but I also believe the politicians have been bought/ corrupted/ bribed by private interest lobbyist (which are legal and then legally use their influence to make all sorts of things "legal").

Wouldn't you at least agree that the System is broken... no longer responsive to citizens? That's what the admittedly imperfect OWS movement is about. We just can't keep going down this path. But you are right about 1 important thing... the real 99% is people who do their best and do quite fine and don't really see the point of all the ruckus.

me... I'm all for raisin' a ruckus! (non-violently of course).

[-] 1 points by bikeclub (2) 12 years ago

Thank you for your post(s) and for engaging the conversation. I do blame the politicians, but I also believe the politicians have been bought/ corrupted/ bribed by private interest lobbyist (which are legal and then legally use their influence to make all sorts of things "legal").

Wouldn't you at least agree that the System is broken... no longer responsive to citizens? That's what the admittedly imperfect OWS movement is about. We just can't keep going down this path. But you are right about 1 important thing... the real 99% is people who do their best and do quite fine and don't really see the point of all the ruckus.

me... I'm all for raisin' a ruckus! (non-violently of course).

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I believe you still can make a differance. I saw that with the teaparty. They came together and made a diffeance with candidates who have been held responsible. Now the news may call them renigades or that they are hurting the country, but they know why they were sent to congress and have stuck to their guns.

You and I may disagree what they have done but citizens can still make a differance. I keep reading about lies that are being told about OWS, as a tea party member, I know how it feels. Spreading a lie is much more easy than coming up with a reason for not doing the right thing. Good Luck

[-] 1 points by Kingjoffy (7) 12 years ago

Vooter, you're close, but still very wrong. Banks made more subprime loans because they were pressured to do so by the government and by community action groups. It was OK with them, only because Fannie and Freddie backed those loans and they could move them off their books. Consumers are also very much to blame. They demanded the loans because they wanted home ownership even though they did have the down payment and they could borrow more than they could afford because housing prices were increasing so fast they were certain they could refinance or sell for a big profit before the loans reset. Wall Street found a way to make money by buying and selling these and were confident doing so because the loans were backed by Fannie and Freddie and because the rating agencies gave them AAA ratings. Few were smart enough to short these which is why some became uber rich, and many banks almost collapsed. The bailouts were wrong, but they weren't done to protect the rich, they were done to protect the 99%. The gov knew that if the major banks failed, the result would be a massive depression that but far more Americans out of work than their are now. It is disgusting that bankers could use the bailout money to fund massive bonuses, but those bonuses were not the reason the government bailed out the banks, they were just a sad, unintended result.

[-] 1 points by thestruin (83) 12 years ago

It's the way of our society Kenny, we are raised to believe in the farce of the individual, where we are all individuals living together, being tolerant of all other individuals. Then we receive the jarring realization that we can't all be what we wanted to be, almost none of us can. The indoctrination into rewards for nothing creates a parodoxical mindset where we feel since we did some work we are entitled at least to ease. Then we see other people who have what we want and are bitter for it, and angry that we have been so slighted. We build convenient causes to give us a sense of accomplishment, then we defend those false causes as vehemently as possible, the real ones we calmly discuss.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago
  1. You are free and welcome to believe whatever you like no matter how ignorant or perverse. That is a constitutional right.

  2. If we didn't pay to support / protect / manage public land, a corporation would own it and deny you access, at least until they had deforested and strip mined it, at which point you probably would not be interested in "using" it.

  3. The same freedoms that apply to you apply to others. You get the right to bitch and moan about whatever you want, but others can't have their own concerns? Your attitude ("ME ME ME ME ME!!!") is what killed this country.

[-] 1 points by Kingjoffy (7) 12 years ago

Respectfully, "ME ME ME" is what made this country great. People looking out for, and relying on, themselves. And "themselves" refers to the individual and the individual's family, friends, associates, etc. People used to know that they were responsible for themselves and I remember when Democrats used to say, "Ask not what your country can do for you." To many in the OWS movement seem to think capitalism is about greed and screwing people over. It's not. Anyone can make a quick profit at someone else's expense, but to truly succeed and be profitable, you have to provide goods and services that people want and need at a fair price or someone else will come in and take your customers.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

Unless of course you dominate the market and the regulatory system, and circumvent the controls intended to protect consumers and society from rapacious greed.

Free markets are not about maintaining healthy competition, they are about eliminating the competition. Regulation is supposed to prevent this from happening, but since the regulatory process has been coopted by the very forces it is supposed to control, we now have a global financial collapse.

[-] 1 points by screwtheman (122) 12 years ago

What is your problem. Why can't he have different beliefs than you?

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

He is welcome to whatever beliefs he likes, as are you.

[-] 0 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

You just don't get it, it is about me and you but I try and make this a better place by adding to the community.

My church distributes over 100,000 lbs of food each week. We distribute clothes twice a week to everyone who shows up. No income requirements, no belief statements, just ask; and no cost to anyone who disagrees with our beliefs. All of the expences is paid from those of us who give from what we EARN. We give because we want to, we serve because we want to. It is not a blind tax, taken by an immoral government, who takes at will.

It is about My property, which I earned, My children, who I raised, fed, clothed, and educated, My grandchildren, who I pray will not end up with the attitude that they deserve without pain and suffering, without making difficult choices and making sacrifice. I owe you nothing, this country owes you nothing go out and work for what you want, grow-up

[-] 1 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

I think, trully, as I have read through many of these posts. The reason that you don't "get it" is because you have not lived in the NYC area. A family of four literally can't survive on less than 100K. I live in a neighborhood that isn't that great. I still pay $1300 in rent. That's $15,600 a year. Just in rent. And no, you can't just save to buy a house. The average house price around here is $500,000. 20 percent of that, required to get a mortgage would be 100,000. What a couple makes in a year if they are lucky! Add utilities and food. Then add health insurance. Add clothing. Also add taxes. Add things like the water bill. Student loan payments. I could go on. Not counting car insurance, etc. The problem is the banks are out of control. Taxes are out of control. Food prices, gasoline, etc. Out of control.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Move, nothing is keeping you there. I have had to move several times in my life. I have children living in Alaska, California, and Oregon. My father lives in Illinois, and my son goes to college in Anapolis, MD. Go to where you have the most opportunity.

[-] 1 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

There are several things keeping me here. I was born and raised in the NY area. I have no desire to move. My family and friends are all here. One should not have to move from their home if they do not want to.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

You have made a decision, now live with all that comes with that decision. I am not saying you are wrong only that you have choices, I was born in a small town in Illinois, 50 miles north of the Kentucky border. There are no jobs about 80% of those who live there on on some sort of public assistance. I had a choice, I left searched for greener pastures. You have decided to stay, I don't see my family very often, but I chose not to live in poverty all of my life. We all make choices and have to live with the good and bad.

[-] 1 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

again I am personally not in poverty. I am getting by. I have had a lot of bad luck. But I can deal with things myself. However, there are worse off than me. And that is what I can not abide by. The American dream used to be that you could make it with hard work. The greed of corporations and the greed of politicians whose campaigns are financed by greedy corporations is what is killing the economy. No matter how hard you work, in this day and age, it's not possible to make it. You just have to work harder and harder. This is not the age you came of age in. I think that is what you need to understand. This is not your world, you will have passed on and won't see where it's headed. We are still stuck here. If we don't fix it now, there will be no hope for the next generation. Only that 1%.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Most campaigns are financed by multiple sources. Unions throw millions of dollars to politicians in order to buy influence. It is the same thing. Try working with the Tea Party they have worked to elect those who will go to Washington and push their agenda. That is the only way it is going to change.

[-] 1 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

I don't agree with the Tea Party. All I am saying is that you can't judge everyone. Just as you don't want them to judge you. You wanted to understand why OWS is happening. And I've explained to you why. Until you can walk a mile in the shoes of another, you can not see the whole picture.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I doesn't matter if you agree with the Tea Party or not. What is important is that they changed the political landscape within the system. That is the only way you are going to challenge the status quo.

By the way, just so I know what do you disagree with the Tea Party about?

[-] 1 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

well for starters I don't like that they are against gay marriage. I also don't like that there is too much emphasis on the Christian religion as I do not consider the US to be a Christian nation. I feel church and state must remain separate. I am pro-choice, there seems to be the opposite from the Tea Party. I understand they changed the political landscape. But I don't feel OWS should endorse a candidate at this time. OWS is re-administering democracy

[-] 1 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

Yes, it was founded by Christians. But so many religions exist here now. Declaring it a Christian nation wouldn't be fair to so many other people. As if their religion doesn't exist. As far as human life, that is to be determined. I have my own personal opinion, but it doesn't give me the right to judge others.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Valid, you have to believe what you believe. I hate to say it, but the "re-administering" of democracy is not going to happen. If you don't believe this is Christian nation you really need to read our founding father's writings. Plus almost every state was established by a religion, Penn - Quaker, Maryland - Catholic, Virginia - Church of England etc. I know there is no way to argue with you about killing children, human life has become so cheap and expendible. Thanks for letting me know best of luck.

[-] 1 points by Slugsalt (13) 12 years ago

I am from another world if we are to base our sameness on experience. I am in full agreement that what the people of America have lost is the sense that we are our brothers keepers. Brotherly love need not involve religion. I believe that it does need for sacrifice by all when needed. The collapse of America is in the me me me generation. We are not all equal, but we all deserve to live a life that includes humanity. The concept of a free lunch is bull.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

Since you don't know what I do or how I do it it is ignorant of you to assume that you do. I do get it, I work to support my family and I participate in charity and my community, though not through any church.

I don't ask OUR country for anything, and I pay dearly only to see OUR taxes squandered on global military ventures, corporate welfare and bailouts, etc. while those at the top avoid paying taxes.

Why is it OK for churches to distribute food and clothing to the poor, but not the government?

[-] 1 points by Kingjoffy (7) 12 years ago

First of all, people at the top DO pay their taxes. They pay far more than anyone else. Nucleus, when you do your taxes, do you take the deductions availble to you? I sure as hell do. Sure, the rich take advantage of the tax laws to limit their liabilities, but so do the poor. Do the poor opt to reject the earned income tax credit? Do the middle class not take the mortgage deductions and child tax credits? About 50% pay no income tax at all. The rich pay as little as the can (as do we all), but they still pay the most. Plus, they own the largest house and buy the most stuff and use the most utilities which means the pay more in property tax and sales tax and utility taxes etc. Cetain corporations may find ways to escape taxes, but the CEO's and employees all still pay tax on their income.

Second, churchs help the poor by using money from people who choose to give it. The government takes your money. Charity is voluntary and isn't done by force. But I, and probably Kenny too, are perfectly OK with some taxation and the government helping the needy. The problem is when the needy become permanently needy because they think government handouts are a right and not something to only be used in an emergency. We have an ever growing class of people in this country that are happy to see themselves as victims and want others to support them.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

The effective tax rate at the top is smaller than the effective tax rate on the middle and even upper classes. Buffet said he paid a lower rate on $7 million income than his cleaning lady.

The reason for this is the rich control the political process through a variety of mechanisms that all depend on wealth.

The myth of the "permanently needy" is that they are suckling at the tit of government (i.e. the taxpayer). The truth of the needy is that corporate financial policy of maximum profit has discarded the American worker, and that the support systems that used to exist are no longer. Welfare is now workfare (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families), limited in duration (maximum 2 years) and value (about $600 per month). In addition, you must actively be seeking a job.

Since 2008, the poverty rate in the US has gone up over 50%. This is not because of lazy people bailing out of the work force to live high on the hog on TANF, but due to the rapacious greed that decimated the workforce and collapsed the economy.

A society is only as strong and as healthy as it's weakest members. From an economic standpoint, it costs far more to perpetuate an underclass than it would to provide basic services and opportunities for everyone.

Blaming the victim avoids the reality of the problem. A rape victim did not ask for "it" and more than an unemployed person did.

[-] 0 points by hahaha (-41) 12 years ago

Here we go with the Buffett thing again. Buffett's head is so far up Obama's ass he can see his molars. Buffett complaining he pays less in taxes than his secretary? I can fix that for him. Instead of taking a $100,000 a year salary and a zillion in dividends, why doesn't he give himself a raise to, say $30,000,000 a year and pay income tax on that? Problem solved. Or why doesn't he just cut a check and make a voluntary contribution to the federal government to assuage his guilt? Again, problem solved? Do you know why? Because he knows and Obama knows that there will never be a meaningful tax on the wealthy. Just empty rhetoric spouted by an increasingly looney-tunes billionaire fed to the occupant of the Oval Office to make the divide greater, to make the 'corporate jet' and 'millionaire and billionaires' lines in speeches get the sound bite electorate riled. The stuff of campaigns, period.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

The system works for people like Buffet at the expense of everyone else. If you want to fix something, let's hear your ideas.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Through the church every dollar goes to support those in need, again no requirements, no application, no tests just help to neighbors in need.

The govenment does well when gets $.45 of every dollar into someones hands and then by providing dollars instead of goods allows for fraud to run wild. Washington DC has no idea what is needed now in Salem, Oregon, the High Street neighborhood. They don't see the face of the hungry, they don't go under the bridges on cold nights giving away coats and blankets. They don't get people medical care. Instead they hand out pennies on the dollars received and call it good. That's why not the government. When I volunteer to work with the homeless, it is to serve a member of my community not to just make myself feel better. Why a church? You may not like it but we actually care, we want people to lead profitable lives. It is what the Salvation Army has done for well over a hundred years.

Why the church and not government? We do it for souls not votes!

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

The church is a very wealthy institution. To think that it is not, and that every penny is used for charitable purposes, is self-delusion.

To understand what is wrong with government you only have to follow the money. Corporate interests (wealth) controls the entire political process.

[-] 2 points by cristinasupes (145) 12 years ago

The church has more money than God. ;)

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Just Stop, the church isn't the building or the organization it is the people. Even the bible tells us on the last days some will say Lord, Lord and He will say I never knew you. You can only justify what you do yourself. There is a lot of money in "The Church" there is also all types of abuse. I serve the one Living God, the God of Israel who sent his only Son, a part of Himself to die for my sins. He has made my life one truly worth living allowing me to serve others while serving Him.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

There is only ONE god?

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

No, there are many gods, only one God. Believe what you want and I'll do the same, in the end we will all know.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

or not.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

good luck with that

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

In the long run, you make your own luck - good, bad, or indifferent.

[-] -1 points by hahaha (-41) 12 years ago

Did some of that thread get deleted or did you respond to something that no one was talking about with that 'luck' thing?

[-] 1 points by thestruin (83) 12 years ago

Because churches distribute donations, items and money freely given. Governments demand a price, then spend it with what appears to be reckless abandon.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

Churches are another form of power structure.

The "reckless abandon" of government is one of the primary causes of the OWS movement. Unlimited financial influence controls the entire political process including elections.

[-] 1 points by thestruin (83) 12 years ago

I would agree with both of those statements, though I feel we might differ on some of that reckless abandon. And the scary difference between the church and the government as power structures is the individual has a voice in the church, and chooses when to support the church's projects and when to decide that it's not a good use of the individuals resources.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

OWS is all about the individual's voice.

[-] 1 points by Kingjoffy (7) 12 years ago

Is it? Honestly, I have no idea what it is about. For some, it seems that OWS is against crony-capitalism and wants money out of politics and an end to influence peddling. I'm with you 100% on that. (And so is the Tea Party movement!) But for others OWS seems like it's against capitalism and wants income redistribution and free college tuition and higher taxes on the rich, etc. I think OWS is really a collection of several different movements but the entire movement is being melted together by the media and acting like it's the middle-class/working-class democrat/left leaning answer to the Tea Party.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

I find most ills in society to be related, and I distrust the corporate media.

[-] 1 points by thestruin (83) 12 years ago

I never said it wasn't

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

It wasn't an accusation.

[-] 1 points by thestruin (83) 12 years ago

I apologize then for my retaliatory remark, and for assuming when I lacked sufficient cause.

[-] 0 points by hahaha (-41) 12 years ago

And that last line is why you're without a clue.

[-] 1 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

I made a few points and posed a question. You contributed nothing. Nice work.

[-] 0 points by hahaha (-41) 12 years ago

Well said. But falling on many deaf ears here I'm afraid.

[-] 0 points by Rob (881) 12 years ago

This persona raised valid points yet you did exactly what he is concerned about, mocked. He wants to be left alone to live his life as he sees fit, yet you bitch that he wants to do that. You seem to feel that you should have the right to get in his pocket to take his money and get in his face to spout your ignorant rants and he should be required to give and listen. You mock his religion, which is a guiding light in his life, but what about your ridiculous GA and the stupid, childish hand signals? He has focus, and dedication to his life, you want to take it away. You deserve to die.

[-] 2 points by nucleus (3291) 12 years ago

Criticism regarding mocking accepted. Let me rephrase, please:

You are free and welcome to believe whatever you like no matter what others may think. That is a constitutional right. But it is also the right of others to believe what they like.

If you are not secure in your beliefs ("atheists try to steal ...") then I suggest that your brain is starting to question the validity of your beliefs.

As for the rest of your post, mocking the GA process, and "you deserve to die", you are doing the very same thing you accuse me of and far, far worse. Nice demonstration of conservative ideals.

Thanks for sharing, we'll post that on the sign after your necktie party.

[-] 0 points by Rob (881) 12 years ago

so long as it is not one of those hideous Jerry Garcia ties. Do people actually buy those?

[-] 1 points by TH3W01F (180) from Ottawa, ON 12 years ago

There are Jerry Garcia ties? Stop the world, I want to get off!!

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 12 years ago

Hi. Posting on a public forum about what he thinks is "oppression" and why he should be left alone is exactly the way to not be left alone.

He's wants to be left alone? Don't post public threads he knows will create a flurry of reactions, some in his favor, some very not.

No one is looking to take away his focus or dedication... and certainly no one deserves to die for their opinion, you incredible fool.

Way to go. You are one of the elite few on this page who have reduced me to name calling.

[-] 0 points by Rob (881) 12 years ago

I feel honored. First I would like to thank those who gave me the the ability to instigate, you know who you are ;^). Secondly I would like to thank the people of OWS who made this all possible. Your living life looking through rose colored glasses has made you an easy target for me and others of like mind. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now...get productive and make something of your life instead of bitching and moaning and complaining that someone is controlling it for you.

[-] 1 points by jimmycrackerson (940) from Blackfoot, ID 12 years ago

Good post Kenny.

Not everyone here were raised with the same values as you were. I admit there is more than enough entitlement in OWS to go around. But this movement is not about entitlement. It's about doing what is RIGHT for the good of the people. There is a lot of shit that needs to change. I know you can see that--everyone can see that. And if it's not going to work with a mostly peaceful and non-violent movement, then people are going to start resorting to violence and terrorism to do what needs to be done.

I'd say you're lucky it's not a hell of a lot worse than it is at this point. Things are going to change weather you want it to or not. The question is, do you want us to continue with peaceful movement or evolve into something much more violent? The people have had it, and no one is going to give up. This country/world is going to be a very different place in the near future, one way or another.

[-] 1 points by Kingjoffy (7) 12 years ago

My problem is that everyone is acting like the US is such a terrible place. Prior to the current recession, things were very good. Not for everyone, but for most. Freedom isn't supposed to be easy and equal rights doesn't mean equal stuff. Generally speaking, those who made the right life choices (worked hard, stayed in school, didn't abuse drugs/alcohol, didn't have children in their teen years, etc) tended to succeed to various levels. The world isn't perfect and will not be under any system, and as such, good people fell on hard times for various reasons but our government did provide help for those truly in need. Again, if not for the current recession, things would still be very good for most. And if you look to the heart of it, this recession came about because the government got involved where it shouldn't have. Banks never would have started making bad loans had the government not pressured them to do under the guise of making home ownership available for all - regardless of their financial abilities. Now, a whole lot of bad and unintened stuff happened, but none of it ever would have happened had the government not butted in. There is a place for the government to regualte businesses to some extent, but when it butts in and tries to direct business for a social agenda, unintended things happen.

[-] 1 points by Slugsalt (13) 12 years ago

Values is a baiting heavy word. I think experiences is more respectful. When you add different and values into the same sentence it leaves a sense that values cant be equal when one has different life experiences. Words are more powerful than blades and if not used properly can be very dangerous.

[-] 1 points by jimmycrackerson (940) from Blackfoot, ID 12 years ago

Thank you slugsalt, well said.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I appreciate what you had to say. Thomas Jefferson said something like: I am amazed how good my luck gets the harder I work. I'm sorry that is the general idea I didn't look up the actual quote. If it comes to violence, you will not only be fighting police and government officials but those like me who will take up arms against you or anyone else who threatens the lives of those we love.

We are blessed that we have been given a political means to change what is not right. I want things to change, I want the federal government out of my local schools. I want to return to a constitution designed to limit government not limit my rights. I want entire government agencies eliminated in order to balance the budget. I know OWS may believe this is just an extention of "The Arab Spring" and by taking to the streets will draw everybody out to fight, but you're not as strong or as numerous as you think. More will be against you than you realize. The only blood in the streets will be yours. Nobody wants that to happen.

[-] 0 points by HowdyDoodyTime (27) from Brooklyn, NY 12 years ago

They are a me centered egotistical journey

[-] 0 points by MissBirdy (-78) from Thornwood, NY 12 years ago

Right on Kenny. God bless you.

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

It's a pleasure to meet you Kenny, Thanks for sharing your story. Sounds like a LOT of people I know and admire.

[-] 0 points by ThatOneGuy (51) 12 years ago

i can't get past the atheist part. how many atheist did you say knocked on your door, came to your business to convert you? what you mean to say is that people like me refuse to let you turn this into a christian version of Iran, a theocracy. well you are right sir, i am a very different kind of christian, and i have no obligation to live by your faith.

if you guys could keep your guns from being stolen by your own kids to shoot up schools, we could relax gun control, but the level of personal responsibility is just not there.

yes, you are correct on 3. the lack of tolerance is astounding, even on your part.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

As much as you may not like it Atheistism is just as much of a religion as islam or christianity. Atheist work just as hard to convert people to their way of thinking as anybody. I would argue not believing in God takes just as much faith as believing in God. It is also a lie christians do not believe or ignore science. It is usually the one thing that proves what we believe is true.

Athest knock on my door everytime they put up a billboard, one more thing I hold dear is taken from the public square or someone has to make a choice to say Merry Christmas or loose their job. Removing God from our society has not exactly improved our lives.

Us guys use our guns, but there is no reason for the government should monitor. You want to check criminal background fine, but if I buy 50 guns legally, it's none of your our anyone elses business. By the way nobody has stole any of my guns. Also because someone else isn't responsible does not mean my actions have to be criminalized.

Finally, how am I being intollerant?

[-] 0 points by ThatOneGuy (51) 12 years ago

these are all valid points with the exception of the billboads. again you dislike the remove of god from the public, that should be protected by free speech yet you do not want to extend this to atheist as well. the first amendment that protects your right to say "God bless" is also the same amendment that prevent the government for supporting one particular religion. this land is OUR land, not your land. this lack of allowing others the same you expect is your lack of tolerance. i am what you would call a gnostic christian(not coptic), or as close as could be considered these days.

you must welcome all to these rights if you want them for yourself.

John 3:15 - Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

You have probably seen the bumper sticker that says Co-exsist with many differant religious symbols. So I am suppose to change what I believe in order to co-exsist it's not going to happen. I believe the God of the Bible, who created all, made a covenant with Abraham. Sent His Son to die on a cross for all sin. Nobody said anything about hate. But if you believe that holding absolutly to you convictions, guiltyl

Though the arrogant have smeared me with lies, I keep your precepts with all my heart. Ps 119:69

[-] 0 points by ThatOneGuy (51) 12 years ago

the lie is that he would except your lack of tolerance for your neighbor. jesus was never a big fan of the church.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

Is that why he did everything that was required of a Jew? You need to read more not just listen to what people say.

[-] 0 points by ThatOneGuy (51) 12 years ago

that book you read from was assembled 300 years after the fact by a king and a politically appointed comity of clergy. when you search for jesus, you will find him.


And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

I wish we could debate this in person. You are right the Bible was assembled in the third century. A collection of 66 books written by all differant people, slaves, shepherds, and Kings over a 4000 year period. Including the one you just quoted, Revelation. This is the only book that promises the reader will be blessed:

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near" Rev 1:3

All differant people times and situations coordinated by the Holy Spirit to bring God's message of redemption to man. Putting it together is not adding anything to one of the books. Do more research, learn. Do you know how many people have started out to disprove the Bible and ended up believers.

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

[-] 0 points by gr57 (457) 12 years ago

I can pretty much agree with everything you are says.

The fee to hunt though it to provide some protection. With out a fee, every idiot with a gun would be out there seeing how many things they could shoot at. The fee helps pay for game wardens and the national parks

[-] 1 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

You are right about that. It's not the fee, it all is part of the ever increasing government intrusion. Two years ago I paid $20. for an elk tag, this year $42.50 just for the tag, the reason behind it: fewer people are hunting why, they can't afford licences and tags. So we continue to raise the price pushing people in to a position of hunting without thus needing more game wardens thus needing more money thus needing to raise fees thus fewer can hunt. Government needs to make sence, serve the people not be a business.

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[-] -1 points by Spankysmojo (849) 12 years ago

You appear to let fear rule your life.Fear of atheists is the same as fear of trees. Atheists, if you are a theist, want nothing to do with you. The government is necessary in a huge society. Otherwise you would be overrun by those slightly more to the right. They have more guns than you do. As far as PETA and freedom of speech. Why do you care what they say? You can hunt all you want, within the law.

[-] 2 points by kennyrw (92) from Salem, OR 12 years ago

No fear, just tired of the uninformed and uneducated.

[-] 0 points by Spankysmojo (849) 12 years ago

Me too.

[-] 0 points by hahaha (-41) 12 years ago

That is incorrect. I often wonder what it is about atheism that makes atheists so vocal and so ready to belittle and berate believers. I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy and I have never once gotten into a heated discussion with someone who does. How can something you do not believe in occupy so much of your thoughts? My armchair psychology degree says it is about seeking affirmation.

[-] 0 points by Spankysmojo (849) 12 years ago

I am not religious but I don't care what ANYONE believes as long as it doesn't effect anyone else. Unless they effect others with good deeds.

[-] 0 points by queenann (-220) from New Rochelle, NY 12 years ago

Fear should rule your life. You are such a jack ass it's scary.

[-] 0 points by Spankysmojo (849) 12 years ago

Hi queen. Sorry you feel that way. Nothing that an education wouldn't cure. Wanna debate? Bring a topic, Grasshopper.

[-] 0 points by queenann (-220) from New Rochelle, NY 12 years ago

You are not good at debating. You call names and put labels on people very quickly. Are your parents related?

[-] 0 points by Spankysmojo (849) 12 years ago

I am prepared to debate any subject with you. I am sorry that you, you of all people think I label. Now to your label: Yes my parents were married when I was born in 1956. They are deceased now and I'll leave it to you to somehow besmirch their names. I am also sorry that I offended you. I thought that this post was about How OWS is Helping.

[-] 0 points by queenann (-220) from New Rochelle, NY 12 years ago

sorry. I don't get the vibe that u r ready to debate. your debate seems to deteriorate to insults and name calling, not facts. I don't see how the OWS movement is helping? They have not articulated one realistic, positive proposal for the common good. Have they?

[-] 0 points by Spankysmojo (849) 12 years ago

Okay, then I've failed. You win, if that's what counts here. I'll let your ego run wild. You acme fo aggressive. I responded. I am officially backing down...real man move. Good night.

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