Forum Post: I have read many crazy post on this site, but what I have yet to read is even the slightest DEFENSE of Wall St…
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 14, 2011, 8:29 p.m. EST by unarmed
(213)
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Guess we are all in agreement that they are corrupt?
hahahahahahaha fucking awesome point!!!
I didn't hear anything said about the oil companies during this whole 2 months.....this society will cease to function without the crude......
Explain to me why we even need a stock market?
Imagine we OWS'ers band together to form the "OWS Company" according to good solid OWS principles. Much to our surprise, our little company becomes quite successful, and we decide we need to expand substantially. After all, shouldn't EVERYONE in America wear domestically made recyclable shoes ? Unfortunately, the cost of expansion is greater than all our pooled savings. What do we do?
One way the OWS Company can get the money it needs to expand would be to go hat-in-hand to the Bankers. They, however, will charge us a fortune in interest because we're small and risky. OWS Company could try to issue bonds, but the bond value would exceed the assets of our company, so we would have to offer very high interest on our bonds.
Bleak, isn't it ? Wait, I have an idea !
Change to the OWS Corporation and offer other OWS'ers a chance to buy shares. Rather than pay interest, we're offering them to share in our success. We get the capital we need at low cost. The OWS'ers who buy our shares take on some risk, but also get a larger payback if we're successful.
Assume after they buy our stock that some of the OWS'ers decide they want to sell their investment and get their money back. All they need do is find someone else who wants their share and sell it to them. Suppose yet another OWS'er missed out on the original offer but wants in? All he has to do is find someone who has a share and offer to buy it from them.
The idea of a corporation is a good one. It allows start-ups to get capital without having to pay exorbitant rates to the bankers. It ALSO allows the common man to get a little bit of the capitalist pie and a share of those record corporate profits.
Finally, note the overwhelming majority of stock is held by average people in the mutual funds of their 401ks, IRAs, etc. THESE are the people who receive those record corporate profits. Though I agree CEO pay has gotten out of hand, their pay is hardly noticeable as a percentage of profits distributed to the common man.
Personally, I believe in Capitalism...the goal of which is to establish and maintain microeconomic monopoly. I also self-consistently believe in macroeconomic constitutional representative democracy checks and balances.
The U.S. CONSTITUTION IS DEAD however, R.I.P. Oct 3, 2008 (i.e., TARP "cannot be subject to any public hearing or court review"). It could be revived by a PUBLIC VOTE OPTION on the COMPETING final Democratic vs final Republican VERSIONS of a Congressional BILL, as described in my lonely thread http://occupywallst.org/forum/public-vote-option-on-competing-democratic-vs-repu/
By the way, unarmed, James Madison a.k.a. the "Godfather of the Constitution" said "The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans..." Don't think so? Just try me...
Hi unarmed, Another good post. Best Regards, Nevada
The injuries and deaths in the name of this movement speak for themselves. This is the cause of true righteousness.
Wha?
I would even welcome the Madoff classic, "They were Marks, they deserved to be taken!"
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They have nice shoes and Armani ties.
It is a bit difficult to defend the indefensible.
We are too general when we say "Wall Street." The financial institutions, commodity brokers, and stock brokers of Wall Street each play a different role.
The financial institutions move capital to where it is needed. This is, in and off itself, a positive thing, but we need to ensure they are operating fairly, ethically, and without introducing systemic risk. The CONCEPT of credit swaps is rooted in statistics and is a sound approach to mitigating risk. The algorithms being used, however, did not include provisions for systemic downturn that renders the statistical assumptions invalid. These guys certainly need to be regulated to ensure they are operating properly, but the service they provide is valuable and necessary.
The commodity traders provide a valuable service to industry by allowing them to lock down the cost of the raw materials they need. Unfortunately, there is also a lot of speculation in these markets, and that distorts prices.
The stock traders provide a valuable service in allowing companies to get capital at low cost from a broad swath of society comprised primarily of "average joes" willing to lend in exchange for a cut of the profits. The alternative would be to use bankers and bonds, but both carry cost to the borrower that is not present in a stock issue. Like the other two components of Wall Street, speculation often distorts the stock market.
Speculation is a key problem in all operations of Wall Street. I know of no good way to limit it other than to raise the tax on short term gains and drop the tax on long term gains. I'm interested in hearing alternate ideas.
Like most complex topics, there is no black and white, only gray.
We are too general when we say "Wall Street."
I disagree. Too few of us have the expertise to correct such a system - too few of us are aware of how it was broken. Those of us who are aware, such as yourself, can provide a service, in watching for corrective measures.
However - with ambiguity regarding our positions and demands, by articulating our dissatisfaction in the most general terms, has a very distinct advantage.
Think of an interrogator. His subject has information. His subject is nervous. Neither knows how much the other knows - but the interrogator has an advantage - his subject is captive.
We are, in a very real sense, at war. I am not the only one who thinks so.
http://www.truth-out.org/goodbye-all-reflections-gop-operative-who-left-cult/1314907779
Tools of psychological warfare have been used to herd the population into allowing our government become the handmaid of select and powerful interests.
This has had a negative impact on everything from our quality of life to our ability to project power on the international stage. We appear weak. Disorganized. Ripe for plunder.
We are not. We will not be. We will use the tools at our disposal, and we will affect change:
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With Peace, Truth, and the Weight of Public Opinion
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Sure. I have argued with some conservatives here that want to decompose the movement into issues and demands, that the mere presence of so many people in the streets indicates the presence of a problem. The "masses" may not understand the fine details of art, but they know what they like. The people smell a rat, and they need to be addressed.
yes.
I think the many that condemn OWS should at the very least offer something, anything in the way of a DEFENSE of Wall St.
That isn't why they are here.
But that lack does present the possibility that they might be subverted.
If you are into subversion and direct action you might like:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/targeted-interdiction-what-is-it/
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no, i'm all for investing :) that's what my 401k does so I can retire. me and millions of others investing weekly as much as we can for our future.(providing Obama doesn't take it and give it to the Unions. GM) "Wall Street" is just an easy thing to remember. "corporations" is just an easy enemy to imagine and a 4 syllable word at THAT, which makes many OWS protesters feel smart.
I was under the impression people have lost a lot with 401ks
lost and gained, such is the way of the market.
and we struggle daily to find ways to make the things we hold stock in more valuable.
Buy American. make sure you read the labels at the store.
I certainly would not bet my life on the stock market or Las Vegas if I could help it. As it is, at age 64, I am depending on SS and a State pension which makes me very nervous. This is the first time in my life I have not worked and taken care of myself.
scarey right now isn't it?
I think we should pick our leaders more carefully. ones who seem to have a sound understanding of todays problems and the knowledge AND experience to put us on the right track.
I can say one thing I've learned. the Next time we forget, the Next time we are doing well enough to allow a democrat in office, I'm investing in gold. or maybe the Yin
Scarey is right in many areas.
We are too general when we say "Wall Street." The financial institutions, commodity brokers, and stock brokers of Wall Street each play a different role.
The financial institutions move capital to where it is needed. This is, in and off itself, a positive thing, but we need to ensure they are operating fairly, ethically, and without introducing systemic risk. The CONCEPT of credit swaps is rooted in statistics and is a sound approach to mitigating risk. The algorithms being used, however, did not include provisions for systemic downturn that renders the statistical assumptions invalid. These guys certainly need to be regulated to ensure they are operating properly, but the service they provide is valuable and necessary.
The commodity traders provide a valuable service to industry by allowing them to lock down the cost of the raw materials they need. Unfortunately, there is also a lot of speculation in these markets, and that distorts prices.
The stock traders provide a valuable service in allowing companies to get capital at low cost from a broad swath of society comprised primarily of "average joes" willing to lend in exchange for a cut of the profits. The alternative would be to use bankers and bonds, but both carry cost to the borrower that is not present in a stock issue. Like the other two components of Wall Street, speculation often distorts the stock market.
Speculation is a key problem in all operations of Wall Street. I know of no good way to limit it other than to raise the tax on short term gains and drop the tax on long term gains. I'm interested in hearing alternate ideas.
Like most complex topics, there is no black and white, only gray.
Here IS A SPECIFIC, please respond.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/301260-bank-of-america-dumps-75-trillion-in-derivatives-on-u-s-taxpayers-with-federal-approval
Bloomberg reports that Bank of America (BAC) has shifted about $22 trillion worth of derivative obligations from Merrill Lynch and the BAC holding company to the FDIC insured retail deposit division. Along with this information came the revelation that the FDIC insured unit was already stuffed with $53 trillion worth of these potentially toxic obligations, making a total of $75 trillion.
Derivatives are highly volatile financial instruments that are occasionally used to hedge risk, but mostly used for speculation. They are bets upon the value of stocks, bonds, mortgages, other loans, currencies, commodities, volatility of financial indexes, and even weather changes. Many big banks, including Bank of America, issue derivatives because, if they are not triggered, they are highly profitable to the issuer, and result in big bonus payments to the executives who administer them. If they are triggered, of course, the obligations fall upon the corporate entity, not the executives involved. Ultimately, by allowing existing gambling bets to remain in insured retail banks, and endorsing the shift of additional bets into the insured retail division, the obligation falls upon the U.S. taxpayers and dollar-denominated savers.
You offer proof that the "system" is broken, not that a correctly operated system would not add value. It needs better oversight and regulation, but it DOES provide services our economy needs.
Bank of America, by the way is a REALLY bad example for people to use. It was quite sound before the Government twisted their arm and MADE them buy Merrill as a "public service."
So it's "our" fault that B of A is trying to stick the American Tax Payer with a potential bill of 75,000,000,000,000? What happen to all that RESPONSIBILITY I hear so much about? This 75 TRILLION would dwarf ALL "social" spending COMBINED over the past 20 years!
Yes. It is partially the Government's fault. First we twisted their arm to buy Merrill (and Countrywide), then we passed financial reform legislation that penalized them for HAVING Merrill. We have been bending over backwards to try and make this Government-Sponsored-Entity successful, and rightly so in my opinion given that we exerted undue influence over them during the 2008 melt-down.
I'm not arguing that there have been no examples of abuse, I'm simply saying that Bank of America is a bad one to use. There are PLENTY of others you can cite that are not DILUTED by undue influence by the Government.
Are you going to apologize for Wall St. for, convincing us that they needed it, then taking the Trillion Dollar TARP? At what point will you cease discussing Wall St like they are some innocent victim? The victims in this situation are the American people. A relationship that Madoff elegantly described when asked why he did it, "They were suckers, THEY DESERVED IT"
I am not apologizing for anyone. I am simply trying to get people out of their black and white mentality regarding a very complex problem. Complex problems are seldom black or white, they are grey, and people need to understand that.
Madoff was speaking of his investors, not "Wall Street." One could say the American consumer has been "suckers" as well. We spent all our disposable income AND racked up record levels of debt to buy foreign products. Now we complain the bankers got rich and we have no jobs. Bankers don't get rich unless we borrow from them, and there was a time in America when peopled saved BEFORE they bought rather than pay a premium to borrow and "save" even more AFTER they bought to pay it back. If the American Dream has faded, it's partially because American Character faded first. I hope for a time when we stop borrowing so much. I also hope for a time when we think about the SOCIAL cost of a product (US employment, working conditions, fair wages, etc) rather than mere sticker price when making buying decisions.
I am not saying there are not problems in the financial sector. Banks and corporations, however, provide what we ask for. If we stop borrowing money and start buying American products from companies that reflect our VALUES, they will change.
I want better regulation and oversight of finance and corporations, but I ALSO want the American consumer to THINK about the ramifications of their actions as consumers. See my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ .
When banks give 18 years old right out of High School a credit card without them having to earn they can be responsible for it, there lies a big problem. It is the same mentality when they let low income families buy a house they could not afford.
It has always been in the past that banks reviewed your credit worthiness and that they knew better since most do not know a thing about economics and we trusted them that if they thought we could afford it, then we could pay it.
This is not reality and this is manipulation on the banks part.
Agree.
Yes, but just as soon as banks figured out they could sell the loan, they isolated themselves from risk and therefore don't care. This is simply a reality.
People should not be listening to what their banker says anymore than they should listen to a guy on Craigslist selling a car. The days of assuming the banker will do YOUR job for you in assessing whether you can afford something are over. People will have to learn to make good decisions in regards borrowing just as they have had to learn how to be good buyers of other products.
true.
Silence is Gold en
And what is your defense for Wall Street Las Vegas?
Wall Street is not one thing or one person. It is many people, many businesses and many banks. Some are bad, some not so bad, sort of like society.