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Forum Post: I Have Been A Fool

Posted 1 year ago on March 12, 2013, 8:52 p.m. EST by GypsyKing (9780)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I've been a real fool for a long time now. For a very long time I have been grappling with the question of by what Means this movement could reignite and go forward, and I just haven't seen it.

Thanks to nuclear weapons, the powers that be have their greatest tool against people's movements, the reason being that the risks of political instability in a nation like ours have simply become too great to risk. People, understandably, desperately, want stability, and so the inherantly messy process of people's democracy becomes too threatening.

I think the Occupy movement is the latest movement in America to run into this psychological reticence. An understanding of that need for political stability (as well as a belief that we need to maintain that stability on my own part) have been why I reluctently advocated working through the existing political process, and I still think we should do so.

But when I read gsw's post yesterday, where he talked about trying to implement direct democracy at the level of the state legislatures a light dawned, and I realized what an idiot I had been.

I think there is real power in that idea. By taking the issue away from the federal level, we diffuse the fear of instability. Furthermore, the states could be a proving ground for the process of direct democracy, so that it could be made ready for prime time, so to speak. Finally, and most importantly, everyone can reach their state legislature to protest and make their physical presence felt by government.

So after thinking about this for over a year, I believe this is where we should shift our efforts. I honestly don't know where else there is to shift our efforts to have any real effect.

The question that remains is, if we see the potential of such an effort, have we been too beaten down now to rise again?

197 Comments

197 Comments


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[-] 7 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Well, I have been a fool. It took me too long to see the way, but if we follow the path of gsw and BradB we will see the way forward.

The plants of the 1% were getting the upper hand here, but guess what - They Lost. Checkmate!

Ha, ha, ha, ha!!!

It's been fun folks . . . see you in the Light!

GK

[-] 5 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

For those who would like to understand the underlying thoughts that have brought me to my conclusions, please read my blog:

http://gypsyking1.wordpress.com/

thanks.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I like the way they widdle down the up-votes on threads they don't like to give the impression there isn't that much interest, but the number of comments contradicts that. Just thought I'd point that out. Oh, and on troll threads they do the opposite, to give a false impression of interest.

It's all part of the game of attrition baby - how they wear down and demoralize. That's how they think they will win. Money gives them a lot of staying power so we must, to the best of our ability, dig deep to keep up.

[-] 4 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

Interesting... thread... fwiw... I very much like gsw's site...

  • there is concern here... supporting state level approach as well as worry of state opposition ...

  • let's think like this ... and we will get it all

  • as looking state level will help us potentially side step some of the prospective fed level problems ...

  • also will looking "poll level" will help us potentially side step some of the prospective state level problems ...

  • if we initially step back... and simply initiate "direct democracy polling" first...

  • no one will oppose ...

  • as these "direct democracy polls" begin to reach consensus levels ... say 60-70% on given legislation ...

  • it will become very hard for any representative to vote against their constituents stand ...

  • and the "direct democracy polling" will become norm with No opposition or fight...

  • we simply need to do it...

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Man, I'm getting goose bumps. I really am.

We need people like You in this conversation very badly.

I know when I am speaking with a level head, in the know about the process.

I have always just tried very hard to listen to that inner voice we all have in silence and contemplation, to Feel when something is powerful. I'm really not a policy analyst. I have no background in such things, but when I hear you say this, I get goosebumps.

You are right. How could government stand in the way of state by state initiatives, if we educate people about the idea, and can produce majority favor for the idea? At some point that stance would be simply to anti-democractic to stand muster.

I feel it. This is big.

[-] 3 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

;) just like ‘Rolling Jubilee’ ... they simply just did it ;)

[-] 3 points by gsw (2872) 1 year ago

A concerted focus like a laser light, with a plan, and this sight ,can be bridge to ground for the people. Someone should ask Bernie's thoughts on this. He might just go talk about it on Senate floor. That would be a good marketing tool.

http://www.cusdi.org/state_legislator_package.pdf

http://www.cusdi.org/campaign.htm

http://www.cusdi.org/presentations.htm

ZenDog probably has Bernie's # , being from Vermont.

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Go to Bernie Sanders web site.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Bernie Sanders - U.S. Senator for Vermont www.sanders.senate.gov/ Bernie Sanders

by Bernie Sanders - in 1,119,130 Google+ circles - More by Bernie Sanders Official site includes his biography, committees, legislation, photos, constituent services, issues, press releases, links, information about Vermont, links and ... Contact Senator Sanders - The Saving American ... - About Bernie - Vermont

[-] 2 points by gsw (2872) 1 year ago

Everyone email Bernie this link Consolidated PDF Version of State Legislator's Information Package Including Cover and Five Documents

http://www.cusdi.org/state_legislator_package.pdf

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

What I said on my contact:

Please look at and consider. Maybe you know some current members of government that might also be interested.

For Your Consideration:

http://www.cusdi.org/state_legislator_package.pdf


Contact was made at this address:

LEGISLATIVE COMMENT

I always appreciate hearing the views and concerns of my constituents regarding federal legislation. If you wish to comment on a legislative matter, please use our COMMENTS FORM.


BTW - On the form I selected OTHER as the topic then entered "Proper Government of the people" as the subject.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2872) 1 year ago

ask Bernie's thoughts on this. He might just go talk about it on Senate floor.

http://www.cusdi.org/state_legislator_package.pdf

http://www.cusdi.org/campaign.htm

http://www.cusdi.org/presentations.htm

Bernie, you are the people's light and champion. I REspect your leadership in the Senate.

Please look at plan above. Some think it could help our country at this time.

Thank you for supporting the people.

You should run for president. We need a people's president.

http://www.InitiativesAmendment.org/

Above is what I sent.

We should send to R Nader, Jill Stein, Rocky Anderson, Kucinich and all people's politicians too.

Mine filed under election campaign reform

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

We should send to R Nader, Jill Stein, Rocky Anderson, Kucinich and all people's politicians too.

YES - Communications - reaching out - networking - "IS" Essential.

Nothing happens in a vacuum - nothing good.

So let us talk to those who appear to want to represent the people and see how they respond.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Wow, wow, wow, WOW!!!!!

I feel the electricity.

[-] -2 points by trulyamazingOWStruthseer (-23) 1 year ago

Welcome to Occupy. Better late than never. I'm happy you woke up and finally understood the power of anarchy. You're welcome to join our efforts with e-democracy, and the Bridge to the Ground. Let's create a better world for us all. A world by the people, for the people. Let's topple this government! Viva la revolution!

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Wow, that's a really amazing moniker you've get there, especially since you just showed up today!

I didn't say anything about anarchy, or "toppling" a governement, interestingly enough; so I don't know where you got this stuff. I believe in democracy, and I believe in democratic reform.

Could it be yet another incarnation of Tr@shy?

[-] 3 points by gsw (2872) 1 year ago

Thank you for the analysis and consideration of this everyone

Initiative Democracy http://www.cusdi.org/generic_state_bill.htm

....as looking state level will help us potentially side step some of the prospective fed level problems ...

  • also will looking "poll level" will help us potentially side step some of the prospective state level problems ...

  • if we initially step back... and simply initiate "direct democracy polling" first... no one will oppose ...

  • as these "direct democracy polls" begin to reach consensus levels ... say 60-70% on given legislation ...

  • it will become very hard for any representative to vote against their constituents stand ...

  • and the "direct democracy polling" will become norm with No opposition or fight... we simply need to do it...

Right BradB. We have people all over country, in each state, who, if they choose to, can work towards this, and work and planning it will take, but now we have a legal means, a legitimate way, and a place to refer people to a solution forward from mess with citizen involvement, and ultimately Initative Democracy, a possible new name for this movement or approach, it captures it's essence, and can give power back to people, more broadly than money out of politics, which can also help us in getting to this....

If you haven't seen this sight yet. http://www.cusdi.org/generic_state_bill.htm

OH LOOK They even give a sample letter .... http://www.cusdi.org/grassroots.htm

[-] 3 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

yes gsw .. http://www.cusdi.org ... looks real good ... over last year I have been spending every spare min.. trying to get the software framework written... that I believe would help with the "direct democracy polling"... getting very close .. I believe ...

kindda hard... having to stop every couple days to go make a few bucks... then returning to a 10,000+ line program... and remember where left it... but soon...

btw... "Initative Democracy" is a great name ... I only wonder that it doesn't give any ref to Occupy ... where all these things really were born ... maybe 100% Initative Democracy ... ???

[Deleted]

[-] 3 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

hehe,,, me?... find it a good name ??? .... it's your site ... or who-ever's ;) I'm just trying to build a software platform that will help ... .. give me another week ... I'll try to out-line it or even put up a demo... [for critique] ... but it ain't mine... it's Occupy that showed the path... imo

[-] 3 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

ok... quick notes... imo

  • for issue focusing (initiative) ...type polling development ...

  • we need a communication system ...dynamic enough that as ideas .. get discovered/ described/ understood... etc ... that the paperwork so to speak... or discussion moves on to the next step.... helping to move those currently following towards consensus ... while allowing others to at any time later catch up....

  • we need a way that we can (personally) rate & tag topics or issues for later referance & sharing with others...

  • we need a way that we can find, create, develop & share (networks) of expertise in any topic...

  • and a lot more along that same... conceptual line...

  • This is WAY different than knowing or defining the legal structures of states rights.. etc...

  • it ...IMO... is not as complex or as difficult.. or as knowledge intensive as knowing WHAT we need to change... it's only a tool... that can help

  • IMO... no one of us has the answer... but ALL of us together do ....

  • anyway... back to software... imo... we need much more than simply a voting mechanism.... we need a way to [dynamicly] organize interests... understanding... issues.... concerns ...etc... in such a way that it is easy for new-comers to get envolved... catch up... and if they know where the flaws are... help fix them....

more later.. ;) hope that made some sense

[-] 3 points by gsw (2872) 1 year ago
  • A site with a poll link, so they can answer poll questions, such as do you support national Initiatives, and ability to tweet Facebook to friends and family

  • links to local working groups by state, that have clear times for concerted action, such as presentimg to legislators, popularizing at local events, methods, supporters, etc.

  • issues clarification method

  • link to send proposal plan directly to your legislators and whitehouse. http://www.cusdi.org/state_legislator_package.pdf

[-] 3 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

gsw... did you look at the http://sunlightfoundation.com/projects/ tool's ? ..

they have an api... that we can use to gather and integrate to thier databases ... much of the issues is already being catagorized there ... I also have a very good start imo.... just little time ... all time spent trying to earn $300 wk... w/o having to commit to a job ... arrrrgh

[-] 3 points by gsw (2872) 1 year ago

Yes, thanks for directing my attention there: very good tools. I looked briefly at the categories of tools. many useful as you describe.

Very glad you have the valuable programming experience, and see how to utilize that which is available.

Here are old polls on Nationwide Initiative support http://www.cusdi.org/publicsupport.htm

and a brief piece on polls utilized in Boule. http://www.cusdi.org/rules_of_assembly.htm#Polls_and_Surveys

...time to end run around paid-for representatives.

here's another like cause for National Initiative with poll results http://www.initiativeforchange.org/AmericansWant.htm

and a list of prominent supporters http://www.vote.org/endorsers of Mike Gravel's similar NI4D http://ni4d.us/

and http://www.citizensincharge.org/poll-americans-want-a-direct-say-in-government

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

GS.. links look good.. thx... I need another day or two before I can study anything new... but I will then ;)

[-] 3 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

oh... I want to add.... IMO... we do not want a site that replaces any other... we want a site that sit's aside All the other's ... that serves as an indexing , cross-referencing and networking tool... while allowing dynamic voting that anyone can change their position(vote) at any time...

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Amazing!!! You go BradB!!!!!

[Deleted]

[-] 3 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

not sure if it's his... but this is the one he posted... http://www.cusdi.org/index.html

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Thanks for re-posting that link to your Very Important thread.

Let's try to make that thread go viral.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2872) 1 year ago

Hi BradB and GypsyKing, other interested people.

There is a ready made petition page at the site, as long as we credit the source, link it

to their site. Post on whitehouse.org petitions page, possibly?

We do need to be aware of any copyright issues possibly involved.

  • because Ows is bigger than that issue, would we want to mention Ows too?

Might better be a spun off independent group?

People's thoughts? http://www.cusdi.org/petition.htm

Also, applicable copyright issues http://www.cusdi.org/copyright.htm

[-] 1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Interesting idea. Has potential.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Socrates Lives.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The mouse? Sorry - kidding - couldn't help it.

[-] 2 points by Marlow (1141) 1 year ago

.. (huff'n and puff'n..).. We're Working as Fast as we Can Gypsy

Whew! .. Take Heart Dear One!

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago
[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Signed that, and I would highly recommend that everyone here do so.

Thanks for presenting that here. It is important.

I don't think however that enough will be said until we have the reality of uncorrupted democracy actually in our grasp.

Thanks again for bringing that here:)

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I think that the GA's have perhaps outlived their relevence, and perhaps we should start from fresh with this idea - but firstly I think we all need to get behind semantics. We must know what to call this cause. Personally, I think in order to succeed it must present itself as it is, a renewal of democracy, a push for real democracy, and please just throw out all words that are a put-off to thse who's help we need to inlist.

Please let's come up with words for this concept that do not include communism, anarchy, or socialism regardless of how we understad these concepts.

Those who have gotten to this realization before I have, would probably have some suggestions.

All I'm trying to say is that a movement needs a name, and the name needs to sell the movement.

Does Occupy Wall Street really represent where this movement has progressed?

Just questions.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

True, that is a tough question. I wish people would present ideas and vote on it.

[-] 1 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Completely agree. LOVE is the answer!

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

99% Democracy

[-] 3 points by gsw (2872) 1 year ago

i think it needs to be 100% democracy, although in our hearts in can be 99.9 or so.

[-] 3 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

yeah ... "100% democracy"... sounds better ... retains the OWS brand/concept... w/o any negativity

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

How about Democracy Initiative? That just seems to sound better reversed.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

We are right on the same page, right on! If OWS became, say, Initiative Democracy, it would immediately vastly expand it's now dwindling support.

BradB just put forward the idea of polling for support in states. I think with a combination of Large, well organized protests at the state level, and polling for support we could probably force at least one state, and if we take even one, then at the very least representitive democracy would have to really straighten up it's act, because their would be a New Game in town.

It would be a wake up call of the highest order, and if it really worked, well, eveyone would be calmouring to get onboard.

[-] 3 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

;) ... to clarify though ... the "polling for support in states" ... can be... but is not so much "polling for support of a movement" ... but a polling for support on each specific issues ... "government Not politics' ... ;)

we do it that way... no opposition ... and direct democracy begins

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Wow, I may be a bit slow, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

hehe... no... you got it.. just excited ;)

[-] -1 points by trulyamazingOWStruthseer (-23) 1 year ago

Personally, I think in order to succeed it must present itself as it is, a renewal of democracy, a push for real democracy, and please just throw out all words that are a put-off to thse who's help we need to inlist.

It already does this. It's called anarchy.

Please let's come up with words for this concept that do not include communism, anarchy, or socialism regardless of how we understad these concepts.

Why? We need to use the best term for the job. Occupy is anarchy so that's what it should be called. We can't build a better world by hiding behind false terminology simply to please to more people. That's not the right solution. We must be honest and transparent. We are anarchy, either anarcho-syndicalism, or anarcho-communism. If people don't understand those terms we must educate them. There's no other way. Shady terminology never works in the long run.

Does Occupy Wall Street really represent where this movement has progressed?

Occupation is a very common term for anarchic movements. It's an anarchic strategy. Occupy did occupy with their encampments. It's a good name. The name is well known. There's no reason to change it now. Don't fix what isn't broke. You're looking for problems where none exist. The name "Occupy" is not our problem at the moment. Our problem is finding an implementation of direct democracy that works smoothly and effectively in our general assemblies (hence the recent articles on consensus). Once we are armed with a good model, then we can start pressuring the system so that it gets toppled and we can implement our direct democracy. We also have to work on an Internet version (e-democracy), aka The Bridge to the Ground.

[Deleted]

[-] -2 points by trulyamazingOWStruthseer (-23) 1 year ago

It's more than the words which have been tarnished by the pro-capitalist US government, it's the concept themselves. Socialism is the key to a better world, and the only way to get there is to educate people about the concept. We must start now.

I disagree with using unclear terms to define something that is already defined with clear terms. We can't create a better world through trickery. We must use the correct theoretical terms to define ourself. They exist, so let's embrace them. That's the first step to rendering them positive once more. If you dish these terms, anarchy, communism, socialism, you not only dish words, but you dish the very concepts as well.

[Deleted]

[-] -2 points by trulyamazingOWStruthseer (-23) 1 year ago

I believe Occupy offers us the real way through civil disobedience, direct action, education, and the idea of direct democracy. They have done all these things since the beginning and I believe this is the correct answer. Many want to restructure or otherwise change Occupy. I believe this is a mistake due to impatience. Change takes times, big change takes a lot of time. Occupy is doing things the right way. We just need to be patient.

To those who don't believe in the methods of Occupy - and there have been many since day one who have not agreed with the idea of not making demands, who wanted to play into politics, etc... - I say you should start another movement and leave Occupy as it is. We need an anarchic protest like Occupy. Nothing stops you from attacking the problems in another way.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Sock puppet.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8655) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Usually I think most people are only fools for a relatively short time, hardly anybody more than a hundred years or so, not to worry you're in good company.

Many states have proprositional process and that provides lots of opertunity to be involed in pushing change. Here in AZ the 1% state officials hate our mmj law that we passed in 2010, but it slowly moves forward, in 1998 we passed public funding for state elections, even though the Robert's Court has gutted it establishing the right of rich people to buy governors if they choose to do so, and the people of the state are not allowed to interfere. If you want to look at this here's a link to the ruling:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/10-238.pdf

I do find it interesting that so many people who on one hand want to "bring down the system" and on the other think the GOP can't be killed. For me it seems quite simple, kill the GOP and make room for another party more responsive to the needs of the 99% than the current two.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

You are really getting it. Great post! I've been waiting a year for it out of this movement.

The way the structure if gov is states of people have power.

The states with their inherent diversity have seen less infiltration, so some may be very cooperative in using their voice.

Ultimately direct democracy in states would be the most constitutional way to conduct ratification authority to state legislations.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Yes, I think we may have Finally found the key.

[-] -1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Found key, or keyhole? I think keyhole. Put in key, turn, watch state move to enforce federal constitution.

Now the key.

Constitutional intent.

[-] 0 points by aramiska (19) 1 year ago

Just vote for the Occupy candidate and vote the corrupt out. The groundwork has been done, the seeds are sown, dont stress. 15M in Spain, Italy's M5S All over the West people are voting out those who created this mess. The Revolution continues Worldwide !

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I think progress is being made in that regard and absolutely we should engage that process, but I also think a push for more direct democracy at the state level would be a very good idea. The technology now exists to let people engage more directly in the process, and furthermore I think people really need a way to vent their frustration through action, so that "they" Know we are serious, that we've had enough.

[-] 0 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

LOVE is the answer!

[-] 4 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Yes, I will LOVE it when the banksters go to jail

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

LOVE breeds justice, and they should already be in jail.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

OK, but they are not in jail and that is one of the problems

As long as you don't make me hug Jamie or Lloyd,

But rather embrace, LOVE and appreciate the people standing alongside me in this monumental struggle, I agree

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

I don't mind hugging Jamie or Lloyd, but they damn sure should be in jail. All People are Equal, with NO exceptions for the privileged. When we together can Love even them, we will have great power. It's not too late for them to go to jail either.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

To each his own, and no it is never too late

And yes i do believe in redemption

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

We should always Love whether there is redemption or not. Just make the choice to Love everyone, the power from that would be the hope and change people want and need.

I hope the OTS continues to grow, and thanks to you for your help.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You're welcome, but we all have a part and a contibution to make in this

It may not be what we thought it would be early on, but so be it

Leaving our egos behind, and succeeding is where it is at

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

GK recognized how profound you last sentence is, success, leaving our egos behind.

Brilliant!

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Trying to get along? or just rake up old arguments?

[-] 0 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

I'm trying to get along. Not sure what you mean about old arguments.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

GK recognized how profound you last sentence is

Looks to me like a taunt.

[-] 0 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

It actually was a compliment to GK as well as to Odin. I wanted to draw attention to it, I think it's profound.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I don't know about "brilliant." You've seen me. Did i look "brilliant" to you?! lol

Seriously, I do take time whether my comments are short or long-winded to make them sincere....so 'sincere,' yes

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Yes I've seen you. Laboring as a servant setting up for OTS, and cleaning up afterwards. I agree that your statement;

"Leaving our egos behind, and succeding is where it is at," is brilliant and something I intend to keep at the forefront of my mind.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

OK thanks...

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Wow . . . "Leaving our egos behind and succeeding is where it is at."

Brilliant.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

My vernacular was not poetic, but it's true and it is also what I witness mostly

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

It is true. Our egos are mostly what prevents us for having a better world. The ego is a strange and complex thing, something we need to really think about. For one thing the concept gets mixed up with that of pride, a very different thing. There are largely uncharted waters here, and very important ones:)

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

When we succeed, and we will, I will be satisfied to know that i played a small part in this. That's all i need

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

What needs to happen - starting at a very young age - is - a class on the proper care and maintenance of a healthy ego.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Wow again. This is a great subject, but I'll have to let it wait until tomorrow. Thanks so much for you and Odin's presence here on this thread:)

United we stand, divided we fall.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

It is a gr8 subject - personal growth - as individuals - as a society - has been woefully neglected - over the attention given to material acquisition.

Catchya later.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Good night my friend.

[-] -3 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Replying here...

Yes. Look at NDAA and executive action. DHS equipment, arm and ammo buys. We've got our own little internal security force.

Apparently we have a slight malfunction on the other thread.

[-] 0 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

A friend told me yesterday that walmart and two other stores he went to buy ammo had none! One was a major gun store. I will be watching this to see if it becomes a regular occurence, because i would consider this a serious sign of an upcoming problem even though I don't intend to buy any for myself.

[+] -4 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

It is a regular occurrence here. Have you attempted to purchase gold or silver? Just stirred up a shitstorm with GK and the twinkle-team...

[-] 0 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

No I haven't, is there also shortages of gold and silver? Another bad sign if it is.

I read the thread where the shitstorm occured. GK writes well and is interesting most of the time and is helpful, even though before the elections he was in the lessor of two evils camp, and attacked me. I think it was when I posted a quote from someone that the dems were the more effective evil. Doesn't seem to have much patience after prolonged discussions though.

[-] -2 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

He is organized. Either a convert or an enemy. And yes, there are shortages. I prefer not to say why I know.

[-] 0 points by windyacres (1002) 1 year ago

Ok, don't say why you know if you prefer. You're still claiming to "know". I will monitor ammo, gold, and silver closely to know whether the shortages continue and become normal.

[-] -1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

I would find some gold or silver. It's what robber barons in the know are doing. It's going to rain inflation on the dollar. Hemingway wrote about the German inflation just after the first world war. Its in a compilation "Eyewitness to History".

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

It still seems like more of a question at this point:)

[-] 0 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

The only people who need political stability are the bankers and those cocksuckers are going to get theirs soon enough.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Well, if they are allowed to steal something like 14 trillion and we let them get away with it, then we might as well just put our head firmly between our legs and kiss our ass goodbye..

Really, at this point apathy is more dangerous than action.

[-] 3 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 1 year ago

I have not let anyone get away with anything, if I see any of them I am placing them under citizens arrest.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I think you might really do that. LOL!!!!

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

We will "rise again" GK, but as you know, i do not believe it is in the best interests for !OWS! to get involved in the political process

But let's leave that be for now......

While state political positions are usually the breeding ground for US Congressional seats

Here in NJ the state reps are usually corrupted, before they reach office...if they are members of either of the two main parties...as it's all about $$$, no-bid contracts, nepotism, and political patronage jobs

A distant cousin of mine who is one of the most sincere, gracious, honest people that I know ran for the State Assembly as a democrat in our very republican county

She was told by the party not to fill out the Project Vote Smart Political Courage questionaire, but like me she is a rebel, so she filled it out and sent it in

Her own party would not support her after that, not that she would have won anyway....

http://votesmart.org/about/political-courage-test

On a side note, i have known this woman for about ten years. We got along unbelievably well and would usually talk about our common Scandinavian heritage. Then about 4 years ago while doing my family tree I discoverd that she was related to me on the English side, and that we shared the same gg-grandfather who immigrated to Princton, NJ. Even tho her business was hit hard (4 ft of water) in Sandy, she offered to give the OWS people the soft drinks that had floated around and lost their labels

~Odin~.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Thanks for the response. I feel a little sheepish about not seeing some of this more clearly earlier. I think if we seach it now here we will find the mechanism to re-spark this movement.

Nothing could make me happier because the young people of Occupy have given me the first real glimmering of hope in my long life. I don't want them to fail! And I still see you in my minds eye there in New York. God, what fucking courage man! Thank you for giving me that vision.

I'll check out your link later. I've got a backlog now.

That's interesting about finding that common heritage, I bet a lot of us are more closely related than we know.

My paternal ancestor came from England at the time of Cromwell, So I have a lot of relatives in America.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Very humbly, this has been a very educating experience for me

If anyone said that he was the same person today that he was 18 months ago, well you can end that thought for me

Courage begets courage and it comes from the feeling that the cause you are involved in with others.... is a righteous one

My contibutions are minimal compared to so many other people that I know in OWS

BTW, the bright mostly young people who are planning for May Day are very enthusiastic, I know, but its success will depend a lot on labor and immigrants showing big up time, as well as more awakened people of course

~Odin~

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I agree with everything here except when you say your contribution has been minimal. One does not measure the contribution to human thought or liberty by the volume of words, or of deeds, but by the greatness of spirit behind them. In that sense your contribution here has been incalculable.

You know Odin, the one thing that DSamms said to me that stung was . . . "You have done nothing." And it's true, in a worldly sense I've done nothing in life. I haven't done the things, or aquired the things that denote earthy success. I just remember when that spark finally occurred in Sept. and Oct. of 2011, I knew that even though I was nothing I had to do something.

That is the essense of the 1%'s message to us . . ."You are nothing." And to the extent we believe it we become their slaves.

I live in a jungle in a very remote region, where every day I see little things eating each other, and DSamms and his breed just represent that order on a larger scale. If we are nothing by those lights then they are less then nothing, because they haven't even had the decency to reject that order. They thrive on it, and have come out on top, out of fear and sheer ruthlessness.

So when DSamms says to me I am nothing, I counter "Then you are less than nothing."

Those who see nature as beautiful and essentially benevolent have only seen half the truth. Nature aspires to divinity in it's beauty, but cannot free itself of the order that says everything must devour everything else. Nature needs a higher consciousess to free itself from that oppression, and strive further towards divinity. We are that consciousness, but we don't see it. We stay tied to that lower order out of habit, and don't see that we are the only force in the universe capable of furthering the good.

You have striven seriously and mightily to further the good, so your contribution is incalculable, while all of their "achievements" are just so much dross. They don't improve the world, in fact they blindly strive to keep us all, even themselves, in chains of ignorence and darkness.

Don't undervalue what you have done, for all you know you may have transformed the universe without even knowing it.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Thanks GK. My being hard headed has not always worked out well for me, but here it has

Many, many times after a poster has attacked me ufairly and maliciously even, I sit here smiling, because I know who I am

One of the things that I learned a long time ago is not to let anyone redefine who you are, but you have to honestly know who you are, for that to work

Many times people say things on here that are over the line, and could be more hurtful perhaps than they might realize

Although we have had our differences on the way that this struggle should progress, i respect your contributions on here, especially the ones that are more concerned with reaching a higher level of understanding, and perhaps compassion

In any event this movement, as much as anything else is about healing wounds, not making them gape open more

We have had enough of the latter, haven't we?

~Odin~

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Yes we have had Enough of the latter. The people who would uphold the ancient, blind, atavistic order have many, many ways to divide us. Yet you and I have had differences and have always worked them out with mutual respect. Perhaps as a nation we can do the same. That was always my hope in coming here.

And certainly if I have said things that hurt you, I never intended to do so. I'm a very flawed person, and at times incredibly frustrated. Sometimes I say things that I really regret out of frustration. That is partly why I've backed off here. There is a world of pain out there, and I'm but a part of it.

Great to think I have finally found some way to Believe again, to Hope again, and people like you have helped me find that way:)

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Thanks, here's looking at you GK

It' tough to not go over the line I know, even when you both know that the other person is just following his conscience too

Thanks again

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

My apology for any offense. Truly beautifully written GK. I do not know you, nor how life has treated you. But I do see the political jungle. That world prevails, though I wish it did not, and am working to change it. And it is a dangerous jungle.

If I wield a heavy and sharp sword, it is because I come prepared to slay dragons. And there be dragons GK. We need knights of principle and honor. Wit and disrespect. Courage and brains. And sharp pens with common purpose.

But we are all human. None of us more. None of us less. We are all equal and ought stand equal before the law. You mistake me sir. I may believe our love will conquer, but I know what will attack us. And it is not love. I came prepared to fight for my freedom. If Occupy just woke you up, fine. But the act is simply approaching a dramatic climax, many of us already follow the play.

The foundation of American empire is crumbling. If you have the vision to see it, there is an opportunity to break the elite's grip. If we dare. If not... chattel.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Oh confound you and your enigmatic blather!

[-] -2 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

The only reason you think it blather GK, is because you refuse to follow the logic. Socratic method GK, that's all it is. If I see farther, it is only because I stand on the shoulders of giants and look where they point...

Confront your contradictions. Let the logic lead you deeper into rationality. This is the heart and legacy of the Enlightenment. But if you place beliefs first, not reason, you subordinate your rationality to those beliefs' support... Most of us do. Fanatics and fundamentalists certainly, but all the rest as well to a greater or lesser degree. And beliefs are not rational, nor easily challenged or changed.

Thus reason becomes mere illusion, enslaved to keep belief alive and well fed. It only requires we eat practiced lies to keep truth at bay. Socratic method burns thru illusion and lies to confront belief. But many people cannot face that mirror -- else they meet themselves and behold Dorian Gray.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

You have a point about reason, but in all the time we've conversed I have never been able to follow your "reasoning."

We have had a long conversation now, and I started out respectfully, and only after seeing many months of your clever obfuscation did I finally have to accept that you are a phoney.

You oscillate between advocation of just not voting, an article five convention and a two or three other, I think underhanded, schemes to hijack this movement, while never really defending any of them, and using this smokescreen of your erudition to cover the shell game you are playing and your refusal to back your ideas.

That is classic sophistry, and so your invocation of Socrates is in this context is really revolting to me - REALLY.

What gives you this authoritative tone anyway, this condescending, pedantic voice, like Colonel Kurtz in Heart of Darkness? Apparently the history of privilige, and of having your bullshit taken at face value.

I won't even go into the fact here that reason alone is only half the battle. You wouldn't be able to grasp it.

I'm sorry DSamms, but this peon of the 99% ain't buying. I'm not buying it.

. . . "The Horror, The Horror."

[-] -2 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

I pity you GK. You admit ignorance about my advocacy, yet oppose it automatically, with an instinctive knee-jerk. You've read my work, but just don't get it, and never ask me any serious questions. And yet you oppose whatever-it-is-you-do-not-understand to the point of making comments about me to other posters. Attacking my work and myself behind my back, rather than in plain view where I can defend toe-to-toe. Yet you do not understand what I propose... Same tactics you tried just after Occupy got rolling, remember?

But I've been told your opposition is simply a matter of conscience. Perhaps. And perhaps you ought refrain from making uninformed statements, assertions, and attacks upon my work and myself to other posters. You support direct democracy, bully for you. Advocate for it. But keep your knives sheathed, when my back is turned.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

One last time (I first wrote tome instead of time, it must have been a Freudian slip):

What do you advocate, in one comprehensible statement?

[-] -1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

I cannot tell if Mitt would be better or worse than Obama. The significant policies would not change. That's what matters. Control of policy. And, no matter who you voted for, you didn't throw your vote away. It was counted. I voted for Jill. But there were no "good" choices in my congressional races.

A Georgetown U. professor called this the coin theory -- that the parties should be as alike as two sides of the same coin, so the people could throw the rascals out in any election, with the other party, without effecting or changing policy. That control of policy and political stability are the most prized elite possessions.

Yes, withdraw your consent to be governed by those who corrupt our government and economic system. Call an Article V convention. Publicly debate amendment proposals in the run-up to the election. Make twin party candidates compete with Constitutional philosophy and ideas. The cream will rise to the top -- proposals and proposers and debaters.

Ignite public imagination. Frame the issues, ask the question and let people educate themselves. Trust democracy. That's what everyone wants, isn't it? Direct democracy? A choice? This is it. Make it viral.

After the election, if we we prevail, we elect local delegates, our candidates -- debaters and proposers, in existing congressional districts, same as any general election, to the convention. They debate and propose amendments in public convention. Any amendments they propose must be ratified by popular vote in 3/4s of the states. Constitutional democracy in action. It's not perfect, but its possible. And its Constitutional, not anarchy.

Ask yourself this question:

As an American citizen, make a yes or no decision based on what you think, and what you want to happen next. The question is:

Either I support the twin-party political status quo and thus consent to all their bad acts I claim to hate and detest...

or

I Reject their hate and war and poverty by voting to withdraw my consent to be governed under the Constitution in the next general election.

Perhaps we can all agree, the people ought decide this question in the voting booth.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

One more time (sigh), step by step, what are you advocating?

I will demonstrate by attempting to decifer what I can make of your statement:

The two party system is broken, so withdraw your consent (somehow), call an Article V Convention, debate something or other, ignite the public imagination (what have we been doing here all this time?), let people educate themselves (I really like that - that's rich) . . . and then you got me, I don't know what you are saying from there.

Now, compare that plan to this . . .

We shift the thrust of the Occupy movement to advocating for direct democracy at the state level.

Now, compare and contrast. Which idea seems more comprehensible and potentially effective?

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Thanks - that was lovely =

The two party system is broken, so withdraw your consent (somehow), call an Article V Convention, debate something or other, ignite the public imagination (what have we been doing here all this time?), let people educate themselves (I really like that - that's rich) . . . and then you got me, I don't know what you are saying from there?

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Thank you DKA!

I wasn't being facetious. I was really trying to decifer that. LOL

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Gotcha - seems like a lot of circular nothing - Hey?

[-] -1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Neither actually. The vast majority of people are not here debating. They're watching TV, eating and sleeping. So neither has much of a chance under those circumstances.

But I digress. What do you know of the concept "consent of the governed"? I'm not trying to be factious, just figure out how much you know about the fundamentals of Constitutional self-governance...

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

What I know, or don't know, isn't at issue here, the issue is what do you know, and can you frame it in a manner that is comprehensible?

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

No reply link from DSamms below, and wow, that took awhile.

My reply:

What I know, or don't know, isn't at issue here, the issue is what do you know, and can you frame it in a manner that is comprehensible?

[-] -1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

I'm trying to... Damn it, be a little cooperative. This isn't a test, it's a legal and Constitutional discussion.

I'm trying to assess your legal sophistication. You keep saying you don't understand. That points to a fundamental misunderstanding on my part. I need to correct it. To do so, I have to understand it. But I work with these concepts daily, and need other eyes to point out my mistakes, assumptions and apparent leaps of logic or faith... I do not wear my emotions on my sleeve and am used to literary and legal criticism. But such criticism is substantive, professional and collegial as well as ruthless. Principles matter.

I don't see much of that here, or in many forums. And that's a pity, because such rigorous analysis often leads to consensus on the part of its participants.

So, what do you understand about consent of the governed?

Try this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_of_the_governed

The principle of consent of the governed originated with John Locke. As contrasted with the "divine right of kings" to rule a subject people, Locke held that the only source of legitimate government arose from the consent of a free people willing to be governed. Thus, Constitutional self-rule, or that is to say, an explicit social contract between not only you and your government, but more importantly between you and I individually as citizens.

We, you and I, must make this agreement, because we delegate some of our power and suborn some of our freedom, to our mutual governance. In return we get order (law) and stability (police) to protect our rights and liberty -- this is an intrinsic acknowledgement of venal human nature, that government is necessary to protect ourselves from one another. From within and without.

Thus, the founders statement in the Declaration of Independence: "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..."

This establishes consent of the governed as the foundation of our Constitution. We must consent, in order for our governance to be legitimate.

[Deleted]

[-] -3 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Sorry it confuses you. Read more books.

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Who is Dorian Gray???

The modern day Dorian Gray could be: ( more then one possibility )

Both of the Koch's

Or

Cheney

Or

Boner

Or Bitch Mc or Bitchelle B or Rand or Paul and/or and/or and/or


The Picture of Dorian Gray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Remember though - to remove the concept of having an initial beauty. Unless one wants to allow consideration of the beauty of a new born that once was - the innocence long lost/gone.

[Deleted]

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

A very old and gr8 story of dissolution and eventual consequences of leading an ugly life.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (5805) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

It's already been made into a movie at least three times.

[-] -1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Oscar Wilde wrote "The Picture of Dorian Gray" in 1891. It's worth the read.

[Deleted]

[-] -1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Do you now understand my original reference?

Socratic method burns thru illusion and lies to confront belief. But many people cannot face that mirror -- else they meet themselves and behold Dorian Gray.

[Deleted]

[-] 0 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Anytime. Glad to help.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

The more we learn, the more we grow

PERSEVERANCE is the key

It was uncanny how well we got on, not knowing we were distant cousins, and when we told her husband that we were related, he replied, "I could have told you that." lol

~Odin~

[+] -4 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Answering here...

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9397) 5 minutes ago

No reply link from DSamms below.

My reply:

What I know, or don't know, isn't at issue here, the issue is what do you know, and can you frame it in a manner that is comprehensible?

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9397) 21 hours ago

I will only go away when this issue has been throughly addressed. I really see it as the hope for this movement so I will push it with all I've got first.

And Trevor, until we can change the playing field, I will still advocate the lesser of two evils, because evil is evil.

"Moral Man faces quite the struggle in an Immoral Society."

You got that right. It is quotable.

Thanks.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9397) 5 hours ago

Because our opponents control the message here to a greater degree than most realize. There we come to another issue that made me back off from this forum.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9397) 42 minutes ago

I have been told I need to explicate this comment, and I can see now that this is true. By our opponents I mean the 1% plants that are paid to work this forum against the interests of the 99%. They have deeper control over the message here than many realize. Unity, Unity, Unity.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9397) 1 day ago

I'm sorry DKA, I haven't been as engaged in the detail as much as I should have been. I tend to be a puffed-up "grand thinker" of a quasi-sort . . . so could you please give me a little more explaination?

↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink


Boy GK, for someone as erudite, educated and sophisticated as yourself, you certainly have difficulty with reading comprehension when it comes to my work. Must be my fault. But no one else complains. Except the twinkle-team. Same complaint. Same old complaints.

Do you understand consent of the governed as explained? Students usually have a fairly easy time with this...

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

There you go again, instead of making your argument, you just cherrypick the words of others and take them out of context. You are pathetic. I'm through with you once and for all.

[+] -4 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

SSDD. No cherry picking necessary, I quoted entire posts. Unity and opponents? Us vs. them? Thought you wanted away from all that. Need to cover some tracks? Advocating evil? Say it ain't so, GypsyKing. What's incomprehensible about that? I've seen your bloody hands before.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

You are just melting down now, again . . . just like the wicked witch in The Wizard Of Oz.

Go ahead sellout, get the last word. That's all you got left.

I'm through with you.

[-] -3 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

About the only two things I truly hate, GypsyKing, are bullies and liars. Both are cowards.

Gee, I come to meet people, propose and debate ideas, swap stories... and work hard for my advocacy.

And here you are, just humming along, with an enemies list and a twinkle team... Is anyone not seeing things your way a 1% heretic? Get caught with your knives out? Again.

[Deleted]

[-] -1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

You have no idea what I prefer, sockpuppet. Tell GypsyKing he's a cowardly liar.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Tell him ( GK ) yourself - just who do you think gsw is? I am wondering whose sock puppet you R.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I see that your home state Washington has I & R...cool

Care to set it up in NJ? There's a bushel of Jersey tomatoes in it for you. Ut-oh...I just bribed you...eh?

It sounds like it could go a ways to improving what we got, but is it enough to clean the sewer that our political system has turned into?

And will this political and economic system be able to handle the challenges of the 21st century and beyond?

~Odin~

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by gsw (2872) 1 year ago

our leaders are part timers. like yourself, becoming informed. you are your own leader,

we are really not structured here.

nobody in charge, as you can infer.

ideas are our leaders.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Study the resistance movements in history that brought on the sea changes, the most recent one being in Iceland

The political process in this country is rotten to the core

~Odin~

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I did not mean to confuse you, and I can't be bothered now to put up a link

Google up Lessons from Iceland: The People can have the power.

Then look at Sweden and Norway in the early 20th century, and how they got the systemic change that they needed, and got rid of the oligarchs in the process

Then Ghandi, then the 20th century labor movement in this country, and even Montreal recently, albeit to a much smaller extent

The blueprint is out 'there,' but so far the feeling of empowerment and courage are lagging behind

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 1 year ago

Interesting, they actually fired everyone and started over. I was too tired to read it all but am going back today and finish and to some research as to how it is working today.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

The more you know, the more you will realize how our politicians do not look out for the people's interests, but instead work in complicity with corporate and banking interests, and that is very much to our detriment

Then you may reach the same conclusion as me, and all the major movements in the 20th century had, and that is;

Only by getting a critical mass of people in the streets demanding a sea change in the way that our political and financial institutions are run....will we ever achieve it

I guess unlike my previous comments to you, there is nothing cryptic about that

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 1 year ago

Good show!! Got it! Thanks for filling in the blanks.

[-] 2 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 1 year ago

These are the last words in the article. Lessons from Iceland: The People can have the power.

The capital city of Reykjavík has launched a direct democracy platform, where everyone can put in a suggestion in a community forum about things they want to be done in the city. The city council has to take the top five suggestions and process them every month. Next step is to have a similar system for the parliament, and the logical step after that is to have the same system for the ministries.

From conversations I have had with people from Occupy London it is obvious we are all thinking along the same lines. All systems are down: banking, education, health, social, political – the most logical thing would be to start a fresh system based on values other than consumerism, which maximizes profit and self-destruction. We are strong, the power is ours: we are many, they are few. We are living in times of crisis. Let's embrace this time for it is the only time real changes are possible by the masses.

I'm going to do some more research to find today's situation.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Yes i tis only in times of crisis can major reform or a revolution in the way things are done in our country can take place

So let's go for the whole ball of wax

Who said those last lines in your comment? Was it from Occupy London?

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by analystwanabe99 (153) 1 year ago

That was a cut and paste from the article. My statements are the first and last.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Cool, I agree with all of it

I also agree with Spain's La Marea mag/newspaper's 'just the facts' approach

I have put this link up several times, but here it is again...

http://www.nationofchange.org/spain-s-rebellion-moves-print-1359212971

~Odin~

[-] -1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

No. This is semi-organized chaos. Bullshit. Hot air. And pontificating.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Thanks for the response. I feel a little sheepish about not seeing some of this more clearly earlier. I think if we seach it how here we will find the mechnism to respark this movement.

I'll check out your link later. I've got a backlog now.

That's interesting about finding that common heritage, I bet a lot of us are more closely related than we know.

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I'm sorry, the above response was to my old friend here, Odin. I'll have to see how that miscarried, and get it to him. LOL! I really am a techno-jerk.

Sorry if you were confused, I would have been.

[-] -2 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Great observation. And thanks for the link.

A student asked me to consult with his uncle, a D county judge, about his candidacy for Congressional Representative. He was up against two oil-fueled conservatives, one a D, the other an R. I resisted, the kid insisted, his uncle called. I ended up visiting him at his farm.

Old man was in a foul mood. As a county judge, he informed me, he had in his words "carried water for the paper mill in his jurisdiction." Dismissing workman's comp claims, yada, yada, yada... Saved them untold millions over the years (according to him). And they had only given him a $5K campaign donation. "A drop in the fuckin' bucket. Goddamn those ungrateful bastards."

I asked about his warchest and where it came from. Not much, $50K raised from family and friends. Primaries ran about $1M per candidate that election. He began talking about red dirt, and this jar of red dirt he was "gonna set on my desk in Washington to remind me that I represent the good people in my district."

I suggested he renounce PAC money, corporate money, etc... and publicize in the papers his opponents' oily, and large, contributions. Oh, hell no, couldn't do that! What if he got elected -- "I'll want that PAC and lobby money..."

I checked around before visiting him. He was considered a pretty honest judge.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Really an interesting story that shows how deep corruption goes in this country

Only local politics as far as I can figure MAY be exempt from corruption

A word that you don't hear much here is 'accountability,' but that has to be one of our main focuses, having an accountable system with real consequences when the public's trust is broken

Project Vote Smart is a non-partisan goup of interns that puts out a wonderful pamphlet for citizens, and just from that pamphlet, you can make a more informed decision on who to vote for than most people do

Or at least, that's what I mistakenly thought for a f...ing long-ass time anyway...lol

~Odin~

[-] -1 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

It doesn't get much more local than county judges, IMO.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

The county level here too is corrupt

But I reckon there are some mayors in the little towns, MAYBE that are not

But I guess I'm being naieve mostly

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

I'll go with naive. Most people simply have no idea how corrupt it is... No idea at all about what they are really up against. Half-measures won't work.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

The parties carve out their 'enterprises' too, and both respect the other's turf

And neither respects the people's interests

~Odin~

[-] -3 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Am I damaged goods? How does what I advocate, and my arguments in support, strike you?

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

No you are not damaged goods, and I do agree with most of the comments that I have seen of yours

I would suggest though that for people who disagree with you out of conscience, and are not obnoxious, well just to tone it down a bit

Emulating the vicious right is not helpful to our rev

Don't ever lose your fire though because sooner or later as I'm sure you know, you will need it on here, and in life

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by DSamms (-294) 1 year ago

Thanks. It's two edged sword, and as dangerous to the wielder... Kick me in the pants from time to time. I usually need it.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Consider yourself kicked, and if you see me being a hypocrite, feel free to remind me in a simular way

Please tho, give me a pass on factsy...;-)

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

You JUST realized this? :)

I will say though, that local organizing is much easier to determine success and progress. When we are all yelling about DC or Wall St, it is almost too big of problem to wrap our heads around. Its like a mythical beast, something we cannot put an face to (some in NYC may take offense to this, but you get the point). But when dealing with your local legislators, you can protest in front of their houses, all of em, push things directly into their office, push for amendments on those bills, and then promote those amendments in the streets, which then leads to eventually seeing if your efforts were enough to change things.

Even national campaigns are eventually broken down to the local levels, and if there arent engaged people at that local level than that geographical area's efforts will be a fail.

There is no doubt that engaging people in direct democracy, or simply providing a platform, works. ITs why Occupy got shut down.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

OMG! Am I forced to agree with OTP???

What's this, reverse psychology? LOL!!!!!

Yes, if it isn't local it isn't national anyway.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

hahah. I appreciate the humor :) I would say that each person focusing on their own state would be the best way to do this, even create an online platform to track progress- number of volunteers, signatures, etc. Im always a big fan of making it a competition, to give every state something by which to measure their progress.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Okay, I'm having a hard time digesting this. I'm agreeing with OTP?

I wonder if I woke up this morning on the same planet.

Sorry, I need to take a look outside and see if the sun is green.

I'll be back shortly.

[Deleted]

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Cooperating with each other is key, a broad based movement of all disciplines addressing injustice and corporatism.

It just gets hard when others participating are endorsing the very things that are at the root of it all.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17808) 1 year ago

You mean like endorsing the John Birch Society and Breitbart, while pretending the brothers Koch and organizations like ALEC have no effect on anything at all?

I heard of people doing that.

It's sad and kind of ugly.

[-] -2 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Yes, that would be a problem. Most of us realize the effect they have, thats why we dont associate with those who do. Then there are some that ignore their actions in support of ALEC.

Those are very frustrating people to have to work with.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/alec-board-members/

[-] 1 points by shooz (17808) 1 year ago

Aww. Cute. You're changing the subject again.

Why not provide info on what ALEC legislation was passed by who?

Perhaps because that isn't posted at Breitbart's site?

[Deleted]

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I prefer actions over phones, but anything is better than nothing.

[Deleted]

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

haha no.

[-] 0 points by Narley (-629) 1 year ago

I like the idea of working at State level. However, the task won’t be any easier. Probably tougher to crack State legislatures since there are more conservative States. And there will be more direct opposition.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Well a state conservative or otherwise - is more accessible to it's population then is the federal government. Getting education out on a state level for local action/address/awareness should be easier to get support then on a federal level across state lines.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Yes, here's the issue of Method. What ever we Do must be Do-able.

It has been strange to me that there seems to be so much confusion on this issue.

There is a place for arguing abstractions, and a place for logistics. If the two cannot meet then all we are doing is mere abstraction.

I have nothing against debate and abstraction. There are people here who do that very well. Yourself, Shadz, BW, struggleforfreedom and now Odin come to mind. But somewhere the rubber must meet the road and this idea, as far as I can see, is the only one where logistcs can meet ideology.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Template for state by state action ( IMO ) = Move To Amend.

A step towards real direct democracy.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I'm sorry, the meaning of what I was trying to say above didn't come out right. Looking at it now it seems to imply the above sited people are confused on this issue, when I meant people at large.

Words are damned trickey things! There are times I hate them with a passion.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

No prob GK - I did not take it as such and yes the people at large are out of the loop. But I feel that we are making progress there as well. Will it be enough - soon enough? I can pray that it is.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Thanks, I pray with you.

Based on a comment by middleaged, and a PM I just got, I would add this, that the leaderless concept of Occupy was brilliant, as long as the will stands firm, and that we need to always remain flexible, rather then tie ourselves to some political dogma that ties our hands.

Democracy = demos = power to the people. That's it, that's my political dogma.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Being leaderless - also leader-full if you consider affinity groups - all doing various things in support of education outreach protest etc - this is a very strong movement - and hard to pin down to attack.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

That's right! That is our formula.

I have tried to advocate the idea on gsw's thread because I think it is a workable Tactic, and we seem to have few of those. But I'm not wedded to it at the hip. We must remain flexible and not intimidated into stifling ongoing debate.

Democracy = demos = equal power to the people. This is the only ideology we need. The only thing it needs to win is the WILL, and lacking the Will no other ideology can save us.

The truth is always simple, or at least clearly explicable, and I would caution everyone to be alert to those, All Of Those, who tell us they have an answer that cannot be clearly stated in one paragraph - because if we give in to that idea then all we have done is gotten back again to the point where - "Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others." And the sick ego-driven game starts all over again, the game that got us here in the first place.

We are the power that will save us, we cannot retreat once again into the age-old idea that we need to leave it to the "experts." Look where that got us.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Truth = We are the power that will save us

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Move to Amend is currently in process ( about a year now ) - but as you say there is no reason more can not be pushed. OSTA would be a good one.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I'm sorry DKA, I haven't been as engaged in the detail as much as I should have been. I tend to be a puffed-up "grand thinker" of a quasi-sort . . . so could you please give me a little more explaination?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Stop into their website. This group is forwarding state by state the effort to remove personhood from corporations and to get money out of politics. It is recruiting citizens in every state to forward this issue to their state government for action on a local/state level as well as push it federal.

Getting the people to understand and act on this issue forwards the ideal of direct democracy.

Getting the people to see who supports this issue and who opposes it points out those in office who need to go.

If Move to Amend can be made successful on a state basis - then other issues can also be taken-up - like OSTA.

Perhaps spearheaded by this same group or as an offshoot.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Thanks, I have some catching up to do.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34909) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

As we all do.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

And why is this post that has a lot of good resources a -3?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Because our opponents control the message here to a greater degree than most realize. There we come to another issue that made me back off from this forum.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I have been told I need to explicate this comment, and I can see now that this is true. By our opponents I mean the 1% plants that are paid to work this forum against the interests of the 99%. They have deeper control over the message here than many realize.

Unity, Unity, Unity.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

All we need is one state. There are 50. Also, as stated above, trying to do it on a national level I don't think is possible because the large majority would be too afraid of some shift to an unproven system with nuclear weapons in uncertain times.

At the state level I think we have a shot. And if it can be shown to work better for the people of that state then others would naturally gravitate towards it.

[-] -1 points by trulyamazingOWStruthseer (-23) 1 year ago

From day one, Occupy has pushed the idea of using direct democracy. The goal was always to use direct action to cause a revolution and give people the power through direct democracy.

At this time, Occupy is rethinking ways in which this direct democracy could work. General assemblies failed because they were stuck to Robert's Rules. We're trying to solve direct democracy's trilemma: http://occupywallst.org/forum/on-consensus-why-occupys-direct-democracy-was-crit/ There's also a lot of talk about e-democracy and how it could be implemented (Bridge to the Ground). Sweden has already commenced an experiment called Demoex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoex

Talking about implementing direct democracy at the State level doesn't make much sense at the moment. We weren't even able to implement it properly in our small general assemblies. There's still a lot of theorizing and testing which needs to be done before direct democracy can be applied to such a large scale.

I'm not sure what to make of your post. It's like you never realized what Occupy was, and, like a Jack-in-the-box, suddenly sprung forth with your sudden realization that it's about direct democracy. I guess like most people here you thought it was about supporting Obama? It's anarchy, always was, and always will be.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2872) 1 year ago

This is democracy via iniative process, giving people power to make laws, theoretically to change and be superior to congress' laws

Here was the post http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-would-a-new-constitution-say/ This seemed like the biggest kernel we like. http://www.cusdi.org/index.html To get initiatves in states that don't have, ultimately initiatives could propose national legislation, assuming we get amendment, and cusdi describes how it can work without congress or article 5

Demoex is noted in first thread. Great idea.thanks.

All seeking truth have wonderful ideas, and exploring lead to good thinking.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Great, just Great!!!

Thanks again for bringing up this concept. It's powerful.

[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

As true as this statement from the cusdi.org site, getting amendment from congress is unlikely. The concept will work well as a structure empowering ART5, which exists for the specific purpose of amending and direct democracy in states is justified considering congress had a duty to call a convention 100 years ago and failed.

"1. Summary Congress is dysfunctional, corrupt, and unresponsive to the popular will. This Constitutional Amendment can permanently solve many of the problems:"

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Can you please link to GSW's post so we have a better frame of reference?

[-] -2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Cool. I had a good message conversation with GSW on this

http://www.cusdi.org/index.html

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Thanks for the link, I will as soon as able. And sorry that our former conversation was cut short. To be honest I was in the process of backing away here, because I couldn't really see any way forward, and I'm pretty tired. gsw's thread enbabled me to see the way clearly at last, and so I will try to see that through as along as I am able.

Really, it's only a vision that gives us strength in the long run. Our moral natures can only stand so much frustration:)

It is a sad thing that in the long run also, telling the truth as you see it makes few friends for any of us, and after I push this idea I will finally go away here. Revolutions, even if only of thought, are in the end for the young. It is no country for old men.

Thank you for standing here for what you believe, even though we mave mostly not agreed. It takes courage to stand for one's beliefs. Too many simply don't have any, and their lives are rendered sad and vacant.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

it's a constitutional amendment for a federal level ballot initiative. As well as a state level system which allows for more direct democracy. Really cool topic. But yah it's a long read.

I think we have agreed on pretty much everything in regards to issues. The only thing we ever disagreed on was whether or not I should like a political party and certain members of that party.

Moral Man faces quite the struggle in an Immoral Society.

If you are going away, I wish you luck!

[-] 3 points by gsw (2872) 1 year ago

see. again the parties divide us.

goodbye to parties

good people, stay united

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Yes, goodbye to parties. It appears, if we have the will, we won't need them anymore.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Yes indeed!

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I will only go away when this issue has been throughly addressed. I really see it as the hope for this movement so I will push it with all I've got first.

And Trevor, until we can change the playing field, I will still advocate the lesser of two evils, because evil is evil.

"Moral Man faces quite the struggle in an Immoral Society."

You got that right. It is quotable.

Thanks.

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Yah the quote is just based on the title of the book on my coffee table. Moral Man and Immoral Society.

Evil is evil.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

LOL! We understand one another. The differences are philosophically just splitting hairs, and only by nature of the current evil order rendered large.

They aren't large, they are small, and have to do with process, not conviction.

Maybe we don't need them anymore at all, and can find a common way to the moral order we both want.