Forum Post: I Don't Agree With Everything About OWS But...
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 27, 2011, 12:16 a.m. EST by opensociety4us
(914)
from Norwalk, CT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I just don't fear that they are about subverting democracy or our constitution and that's why I support them. Trust is a necessity for progress or justice.
True that. If they had a designated leader then I'd be more inclined to worry. But they don't. This is just the natural reaction of the majority of the people who are now utterly and absolutely fed up with the degenerating state of things. But I dont think that the changes the most of them have been talking about are enough. I think the whole system needs an overhaul, and that we need to move beyond a monetary system in general to be able to achieve true freedom and progress for all.. from the individual to the whole of society. A bit radical, I know.. but I think perhaps its time for something radical, because the same old type of thinking hasnt worked in the past and wont work now. We need something new. An evolved system for an evolving (or evolved) civilization.
Right on. We are working on it. We are all here for one reason, if you can wrap your mind around that-you can get to the starting point-the place where the gordian knot of fiat fiction starts...sounds a bit weird, but take some time reading the posts here to understand who and what has enslaved each and every one of us...the ONE thing we all have in common. http://occupywallst.org/forum/interesting-read-about-the-constitution-and-corpor/. We are all individuals -capable of doing what's necessary to throw off thr chains. And yes, a new exchange medium is part of it. Stay tuned -keep learning and teaching.
Currency is really just a tool to facilitate exchange, I don't think it is a danger in itself. On the other hand, maybe currency's hyper-efficiency as a tool is dangerous, I don't know. I'm biased in favor of the idea that what is important are the regulations (laws) governing the exchanges that currency facilitates.
Either you are unaware of or glossing over the fact that each and every fiat currency and central bank in the world (save 3) is controlled by the Rothchild bank cartel. That in a nutshell IS the problem. It's a top down inside out global infection. Start at the beginning, please, or these discussions of economic bells and whistles are all without foundation.
that's what's so dangerous about money. It IS a tool, and because it's a tool most people think it's harmless in and of itself. I myself used to say "money isnt the route of all evil, greed is".. but money is the primary driving force of greed.. it's greeds fastest vehicle because it can be turned into whatever you want. But this tool is more like a drug than a screwdriver (my philosophy is explained here http://lilraine.wordpress.com/2011/10/09/the-way-it-is/). And it is a tool that just so happens to bring out and cultivate all of mankinds negative and ugly aspects while for the most part ignoring the positive ones. And there is no tool or invention that cannot be improved upon. Sometimes to the point of being replaced completely by something else (such as changing from the horse-and-buggy to the automobile for instance). This tool worked quite well up to this point actually, it is what enabled us to progress up to this point..to dominate every corner of the world. We are the most successful species on the planet in just a few thousand years. There was a time when it was convenient.. for when resources were scarce and transportation limited. But now we have resources aplenty thanks to the technologies we've created, and the only thing that's ever the obstacle to the individuals or societies needs and wants is money. We have come to a point in time where money creates more problems than it solves. This I believe is a sign that monetary systems are really obsolete. We could create even more and better ways to do things if it wasnt for the fact that these innovations arent "cost effective" enough to implement. And if it wasnt for the fact that existing companies using existing methods and resources (oil, for example) do not want to lose their important place in the world, or the profit that comes with it so they actively fight against new innovations regardless that it would be better for the world overall.
also, I think greed preceded money (currency)
yes. we all have the seeds of greed and generosity within us. Money didnt create greed, but money fertilizes the seeds of greed. If people behave with generosity, it is in spite of their need for money or because they want to make a good impression.
There's a lot of contradictions in your post. It sounds like you agree that some tool, just not currency, is needed to facilitate exchange. Currency is just a numerical count of something, harmless in itself. It seems to me that what is being counted and how it's being counted is what's important.
well, the system I have in mind is a resource-based economy, instead of a financial one. In such an economy human innovation is the only "tool" needed. As I mentioned above "there is no tool that cannot be improved upon... sometimes to the point of being replaced completely by something else"... something completely different. I've even considered how it could be implemented.. at least to transition from a monetary based economy to a resource based one. In a fully functioning resource based economy barter and trade would be unnecessary, so the whole need for such a tool as money would disappear.
And I disagree..money is far more than merely a numerical count of something. It imparts power to the one who possesses it. The more money a person has the more power and influence he/she has over someone else. Like I said.. the fact that it is a "tool" is what's so dangerous about it.. it makes people think it's harmless in itself.
i guess i don't understand what a resource-based economy is. it sounds as though it lacks the need for counting, i don't know.
Thats ok. Here's a good introduction to the concept: http://www.unitinghumans.com/
I learned about the idea of RBE only after I came to my own conclusions about money, and was very excited when I did.
they lost me at "Solving ALL the Problems of the World". i'm immediately skeptical of anything sold that hard.
I'd suggest you watch Zeitgeist Addendum or Zeitgeist: Moving Forward. or both : )
you yourself said you dont understand what a resource-based economy is, yet you let the title of the document decide for you instead of reading about what makes them think it is so. You'll never get anywhere like that. Read the article and then decide whether you think the statement is or could be true or not.
And keep in mind, that their version of such an economy is just 1 idea of how it could work.
However, I must state that I do not believe in Utopia and I dont think a RBE would be perfect. If good exists, so will bad to some degree. So it wouldnt be a perfect world, just an insanely better one. :)
I don't agree with everything either but in general I support OWS. I just regard the kids with bongo drums and all that as protest paraphernalia so to speak. There's a good deal of typical student radical stuff, but, to look at things like the 99% Declaration, it seems OWS has its own "silent majority" that is a bit more focused and pragmatic.
I hope so and I'd like to count myself in that majority. I have a hard time understanding why I should be so afraid of supporting the idea of better treatment for others, especially others who have no obvious reason for not deserving to be treated better.
The whole of public discourse has been pretty heavily warped. It's gotten to the point where it almost feels embarrassing to speak of normal, decent values. I remember once, many many years ago, speaking to a fellow who had come over from Poland before the Wall fell, and one remark he made that always stuck with me was, "You can't understand how badly basic values have been warped" by the authoritarianism and propaganda in his country back home. Well ... I think I'm beginning to grasp it.
Here's the Revolution's new song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL4ei-RE3Nc
http://occupywallst.org/forum/something-to-think-about-part-2-again/
Brothers and sisters, the KTC needs to lean on you!
The Revolution starts here!
I used to agree with OWS, back in the first days...but this whole hard left spin it's taken is making me fall off the wagon...
I mean, ending the lobbying in congress is one thing...but redistribution of wealth? Negating student loans? I don't know about all this.
People just want more equality. That's not such a abnormal thing to want. Research shows that more equal societies have more healthy citizens and less crime. It seems a win-win, even for the rich. So what's the problem with it?
The fact that no wealth should be redistributed. I mean, my money is mine, same goes for them. Like I previously mentioned, their money shouldn't matter in politics...but in no way should it be taken from them. How is that even right?
But it is ok to take if from poor and middle class people? Because that is what is happening. That's what i don't get each time i hear that argument about 'taking from them', apparently you are not allowed to spread the wealth more fairly. But it is ok to use and abuse people. Suck them for every penny they have as long as they are not rich.
THAT is not right!
In the form of what, taxes? Sure. Everyone should be taxed, and taxed equally. Put people are saying they just want redistribution...that ain't right.
I don't know what you think redistribution is. Or who was using it in which context.
The way i see it is, within the reference of our current system, taxation would be a way to spread wealth more evenly. And also having more power to the workforce to demand a fair pay and benefits for their hard work would be a way to ensure more fairness. Just to give some quick examples of what redistribution could mean.
Personally i think a lot more then that has to happen, but that's a totally different discussion all together i guess.