Forum Post: I am loosing suport for the movement please read why
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 18, 2011, 7:17 a.m. EST by IcareNY
(4)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I am a older woman who REALLY supported the movement at first. I am disturbed by the fact the income Gap between the rich and poor has grown. I am disturbed that we are giving tax cuts to the wealthy while cutting programs to help the poor. I am upset about the corruption that goes on in politics and on wall street. But I am now bothered by a few things the group has done, #1 that your group actually tried to stop wall streeters from trading. Is that what you really want to do take down our economy ? let banks fail. ? #2 To hear about all the arrests also disturbs me. #3 sloppiness appearance of being drug addicts among you. (whether there is or not)
So you are loosing my support. I am only writing this with the best wishes for you - I want the movement to succeed but my advise is DO NOT become UNRULEY - DO NOT GET ARRESTED _ TAKE the Movement to CONGRESS . Take it out of wall street. Fight the politicians who are supporting BUSH tax cuts for the wealthy , Fight the ones who want deregulation of banks . Focus your message - get organized - Your image is important . It is not so much what you do but perception people have of you . If you turn us off by being unruley you lost many of us. You need to be clear, concise and accurate with what you want. And has to make sense- tearing up wall street, putting down all the people who work there, many who are just hard working folks, not involved with any scandel or misdeads is wrong in my opinion.
I only say this because I want you to suceed. My best to you all -
Hi. Thank you so very much for you post, which I consider to be very important. I think you are right. We are losing the support of older women particularly, I am a man, and think that it is very very important that we get older women, in fact women in general on our side.
You mentioned getting arrested. I don't think we can avoid that. If the police want to arrest us, they will. In fact, they tend to be targeting the better dressed and quieter protestors. I don't think they are neutral, unfortunately. They should be.
Yes they should be! I said it before in this sea of posts- The second they lost their jobs or were at risk for losing them.. they would be out protesting. Its a shame most cops around america have this roid rage attitude.
Really, our protests are giving them job security and overtime Christmas bonus money (for which they should be grateful). I bet a lot of them really want us to continue, for a long time. Others, I am quite certain, hope we succeed. I would like to believe that those who are unnecessarily violent are the minority among them, in general, nationwide. IN NYC, however, it's easy to see where a lot of them are motivated by Wall ST. money, donated to the PD, and private contracts with big money, so this may not be the case in NYC. I am no expert on these matters. My understanding is that here in New Haven, the PD was quite friendly and supportive from the start, although, I hear there's been a change of tone since the Fed coordinated attacks on occupations, and that many unmarked vehicles have now been seen observing the Occupy New Haven encampment, and that police have been less friendly. Seems like pressure from the top, which is particularly disconcerting, especially in light of Pres. Obama's admonitions to Egypt and others to NOT HARM PEACEFUL PROTESTERS. I don't know. I think a lot of police are likely sympathetic to our cause. They should be. I think it must be a difficult time to be a cop. I do hope all those who perpetrate violence and violate our 1st Amendment rights are held accountable, and the departments that order them to do so, and the politicians who govern those departments, etc.
This woman is right and trust me it is shared by the masses. The movement and the individuals that were actually participating were not enough to drown out the few that got arrested.
Mass protest may have worked in the past but today they are not as effective with a police state mentality. Come up with new ideas of how to get your real message across that all can agree on and have a real solution so you can act on it.
Police State...Yep..and these protests are real good at highlighting the fact that we live in a Fascist Plutocracy Police State...
Is that the country you were raised in or want your grandchildren in?
"the fact that we live in a Fascist Plutocracy Police State..."
you are mentally ill. the fact that you disagree proves it. crazy people usually do not know they are crazy. are you one of the credibility-sapping 9/11 truthers? you sound like one.
You really believe everything you government tells you? THAT sir, is mentally ill..
Fascist Plutocracy Police State...
Fascist: http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0412-32.htm
Plutocracy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy
Police State: http://www.allgov.com/Controversies/ViewNews/Tennessee_First_State_to_Allow_TSA_Highway_Random_Search_Program_111108
Wise up....
"You really believe everything you government tells you?"
only an insane person would infer that from what I wrote.
thanks for confirming your abject craziness.
fascist? no. police state? no. plutocracy...a bit.
you're either nuts, a crazed drama queen, stuck in teen rebellion, or insane. possibly all 4.
grow up.
I guess anyone who disagrees with you, you fucking asshole, is crazy. I'm 50 years old, chances are I've seen a bit more of this shit then you...You are just in denial or just don't know or don't care. The fact is, you have no valid point and didn't actually read what was in my post.. You haven't proven me wrong..You're just yelling like a little bitch.
BTW...9/11..was a false flag operation...As one of those people heavily involved in the matters of that day, it was a setup...You'll need to grow up and realize what your government actually is doing and your place in this society..You are just part of the indigenous population of America...Just like those native Americans that were slaughtered by our forefathers..No better...You'll find this out soon enough..
Yea, I'm crazy.. Crazy like a fox..
"I guess anyone who disagrees with you, you fucking asshole, is crazy."
your teenage girl-like rage amuses me.
"I'm 50 years old, chances are I've seen a bit more of this shit then you..."
Not much. I'm only a few years younger chronologically, but it seems I have you beat by at least a couple of decades emotionally.
"You are just in denial or just don't know or don't care. The fact is, you have no valid point and didn't actually read what was in my post.."
like I said, you are emotionally stunted. and a hypocrite. why am I in denial or just don't know/don't care? because I "disagree with you"? (sound familiar?)
what was in your post was a ridiculous statement that we are in a fascist plutocratic police state. and that's a joke made by an unstable drama queen. yes, there are unfortunate elements of plutocracy here, but the rest is laugable.
"You haven't proven me wrong..You're just yelling like a little bitch."
now I am starting to think you are a 14 year old girl who didn't get those cha-cha heels she wanted for her birthday.
"BTW...9/11..was a false flag operation"
<eyeroll> should have known you were a truthtard. truthtards are all such disconnected drama queens. they're also mostly stupid teenagers. and you claim to be 50 years old? when do you plan on developing your crticial thinking skills? time is running out.
"...As one of those people heavily involved in the matters of that day, it was a setup..."
what does that mean, that you were "heavily involved"? more truther vagueness and drama...
"You'll find this out soon enough.."
the tireless refrain from the truthers. I've been hearing that crap from you morons for 7 years. what will you do or say in 10 years, on the 20th anniversary of 9/11, when still nothing has been proven? as it is, there is ZERO evidence of inside job. NONE. not one piece. nothing but innuendo, assumptions, leaps of logic, pseudo-science, and straight bullshit. the truth movement is dead dogshit.
"Yea, I'm crazy.. Crazy like a fox.."
no, you're just a sad little unfulfilled man stuck in teen rebellion who can't admit that alex jones, the loose change little boys, box-boy gage and the rest of the truther leaders fooled you.
You haven't done anything here except ad hominem attacks..It's all pretty good..I've seen better..Just you haven't proven me wrong yet...Because you don't have anything...
"As one of those people heavily involved in the matters of that day, it was a setup" - I can't tell people where I work on a f*cking occupy forum...You understand?
You're right though, It's hard to convince people that 9/11 was an inside job..The "official" investigation says no and why shouldn't you believe those people?... But I can say that a government that would go to war based on false information is capable of anything..
So a "little" plutocracy is all that's wrong with this country? OK, I guess everything is fine then.. See you..
you are a truther clone, exactly like the 100s of other truther imbeciles I have come across online and in person.
"You haven't done anything here except ad hominem attacks"
categorically false. I explained why your ridiculous claim that 7 collapsed in 7 seconds was bullshit and I explained why WTC7 is not in the 9/11 commission report.
your avoidance of those facts speaks volumes.
"It's hard to convince people that 9/11 was an inside job"
it is impossible when truthers like you avoid rebuttals to your assertions. which is what you are doing, and it is SO predictable.
will you avoid, again, the FACT that the east penthouse alone took 7 seconds between its collapse and the rest of the building coming down?
will you avoid, again, the logical and reasonable answer to why 7 was not in the commission report?
do you think other people who might be reading this do not notice how you duck, dodge, swerve and avoid? that isn't the behavior of a truth-seeker. it is the behavior of an intellectual coward who can't face that his childish beliefs cannot stand up to any scrutiny at all.
prove me wrong. explain how the east penthouse doesn't matter. explain how the answer to why 7 wasnt in the commission report doesn't make sense. you won't because you can't.
"categorically false. I explained why your ridiculous claim that 7 collapsed in 7 seconds was bullshit and I explained why WTC7 is not in the 9/11 commission report." - Not to me, you must have been talking to someone else...
Look, you almost sound like that debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories person...It's cool and everything, but I don't think anyone on this forum is very interested in having two people squabble over 9/11...It doesn't really matter anyway..
If you want we can talk about the very provable "Inside Job" The 2008 Financial Collapse.
The real message is getting through. We don't want Bank Executives to get given enormous bonuses by stupid Bank Chairmen. Why can't they be satified with $300,000 instead of the $100,000,000 they are giving to individual traders. People used to be Bank Managers with 400 or so Bank workers under them. Now they are Vice President and things, with far less staff and getting on average $10,000,000 per annum. It is too much money for doing a routine job.
Please tell me how exactly are we going to stop this from happening?
By complaining that individuals are getting this huge money, and creating a revulsion amongst the community. These people have to be named and shamed. It is really whistle blowers in the Banking community, the 99%, who can tell us, tell the news outlets, tell the world.
Their names have been all public for decades.......and they are proud of their salaries. You aren't "telling" anyone anything nor exposing anything.
Until people individually become ethical or moral, there is little you can do to make them that way.
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Complaining about it will not solve this especially when you can't name any specific individuals in your argument.
Of course you can name individuals. Why not? It is no secret what they are being paid. In fact they have to declare it by law.
I'm sorry, I have not heard any individuals names on this forum that worked for walllstreet, the banks, etc.
Where did I mention "this forum". You have introduced this idea. Obviously this forum is for discussion and approach. The action, in other words naming and shaming will be done elsewhere.
I said "These people have to be named and shamed. It is really whistle blowers in the Banking community, the 99%, who can tell us, tell the news outlets, tell the world."
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Agreed 100%
The media is having a field day now, only walking up to the most bummy looking people on the street that can't even explain why they are there.
No one expects suits and ties but c'mon.
Just time to move it to a higher level....Before you mistakenly screw the rest of the 99% thats hanging by a thread.
The media. I had a first hand chance to observe the media when the floods hit Missouri this past spring.
We at my home were fortunate that the flood waters did not affect us, however, 100 yards from us the waters were rising. So being concerned with this little fact, we took a walk down the road.
We were noting that the Meeting Hall of one of the religious groups had flooded again and that they were attempting to 'vacuum' the water out, just a bit early...a media van (CBS)pulled up on the highway and set up cameras etc and waited.
What were they waiting for? A shot of two vehicles parked in the standing water leaving.
Media, the camera crews and reporters are told what the 'news room' wants and they go get it, even if they have to 'set it up'.
The old adage still stands, Don't believe everything you hear and only half of what you see'.
Ditto! You have also lost support from this 64 year old lady. I have been following since day one, but I am not in agreement with your strategies and direction. Best to you too ...
I, too, am an older woman, living a comfortable, easy life in my sixties. However, it is my hope that this movement will continue to grow and coalesce into a strong enough force.. politically and economically... to make our current government respond. You cannot have such an uprising without a lot of "undesirables", unruly behavior, etc., discord, arguments, anger, humor, etc. In my opinion, we have been "polite" and "properly dressed" as a means to cover what has proven to be a rotten underbelly. What is important is learning to care about people, learn about people, and behave with reason. Image is a facade; we've had our fill of images!
Hey IcareNY. I have made a proposal for getting organized. In my opinion it is very logical. Please let me know what you think: http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-unity-the-100/
I've been trying to warn ows that it is going to lose important public support with these ill conceived actions. There is a very vocal group who feels the end justifies the means and that since the cause is so just and righteous there is no need to consider what others who may be on the fence think, for they are, according to these people, simply idiots who can't see the righteousness of it all, or fakers who are not really on the fence but are really against ows. Apparently if you don't support everything some of these people do, unquestioningly, you are unworthy of ows. This is the attitude that will cost the movement dearly. Once someone like I care ny is lost, I don't think they're likely to come back.
Uh, there have hardly been any arrests. A couple hundred arrests with 32k protestors? That's like, .00001 percent or something like that. Completely irrelevant. Also, cops are just randomly grabbing people and arresting them for NOTHING. Members of the press are being arrested. Just because people are getting arrested does not mean it's justified. I mean, look at the police brutality. Obviously, there are many cops out there who don't care about the law, so the arrest indiscriminately.
And you're narrow minded and judgmental for thinking you can spot drug addicts by how they appear. That's not only false, but it's irrelevant.
Yeah, we can thank the media for the inflated numbers...gotta love 'em.
The number of arrests are in the thousands. There were 700 arrested on one bridge alone a few weeks ago.
Actually it is .6 percent or .006 of the total.
"Is that what you really want to do take down our economy ?"
You ask this seriously? (sounds like a FOX news sound bite)
NO ONE has done a better job of taking down our economy than the financial industry. Enough with the scare tactics!
"sloppiness appearance of being drug addicts among you"
Are you actually in the crowd during these protests or are you watching main stream media's interpretation and spin on these events?
"Take it out of wall street...Focus your message"
I disagree. Here's why: The players whose activities caused this financial meltdown are ensconced in a temple of greed ON WALLSTREET and are carrying on as if nothing happened.
I think the message is clear - watch out oligarch's, 'cause thing's gonna be changin' 'round here, the people are awake.
"Fight the ones who want deregulation of banks"
In case you missed this the Graham-Leach-Bliley Act, (enacted November 12, 1999) which repealed parts of the Glass-Steagall Act, was written by Republicans and signed into law by a Democrat. Both parties contributed to the mess we find ourselves in today, which is why election reform is so important. Occupy is not in any way shape or form attached to any political party.
"If you turn us off by being unruley"
Keep in mind that there are many operatives at marches and meetings who like to cause negative press and would love to instigate a riot. Thank the protesters for quashing down many of these incidents.
Save your indignation for the overzealous police officers.
P.S. I am an older woman who supports the hell out of everyone involved with this movement.
At first read, your post came off as an attempt at a cleverly crafted anti-OWS troll attempting to undermine, confuse, instill fear into and divide OWS supporters. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by responding.
Instead of criticizing, why not offer ideas, ways in which you think we CAN succeed.
1) If you thing that we want to take down the economy and let banks fail, then you really haven't been paying attention to what OWS is about.
2) All of the arrests disturb us too. If you know a way to stop it, let us know.
3) There are drug addicts everywhere. I can tell you from experience that there are less drug addicts among OWS than there are in the Stock Exchange and on Wall Street in general.
I'm sorry to hear that you no longer feel you can support the movement because of our "behavior", and that that apparent behavior upsets you more than the behavior of Wall Street, the Mayor, and the NYPD. We are doing the best we can as a newly born movement up against decades of corruption and waste. Hope you can find it in your heart to forgive us and rejoin the movement sometime in the future.
Oh everyone will get their turn. Even us old folks....you are in total denial....here is reality.
http://boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/OccupyUCD3.jpg
This is what we are up against....any words of wisdom for this.
http://boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/OccupyUCD3.jpg
Something very similar happened a long time ago in Germany
Why should the acts or appearance of a few change your view on the majority?
What's age got to do with it? I'm 68 myself. Try living in a tent on concrete for two months without a shower or toilet facilities and see how grungy you get. As for drug addicts, OWS is an open movement. Aren't drug addicts, psycotics and the homeless part of the 99% or is this just a movement for the displaced but genteel middle class? As for civil disobedience, well Rosa Parks didn't make the status quo especially comfortable either. That's in the nature of movements for social change.
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Why should the acts or appearance of a few change your view on the majority?
In 1772, the American colonists had a dream In 1963 Martin Luther King Jr. had a dream In 2011, I have a dream My dream is to provide my children with a safe, sound, reliable roof over their head. A home that I can raise my children in without having to fear the bank will take it away, a home that will keep them warm in the winter, a home that provides clean, safe water, a home in a safe neighborhood, and in a great school district. My dream is to be able to provide groceries every month, and pay my bills on time without having to choose between rent, food, or electricity. My dream is that my children are afforded all the possibilities of the world, regardless of age, gender, race, and income. My dream is that my children will have the best medical, dental, and vision care, and prescription medications that are available in my country, regardless of my income. My dream is that my children will not be poisoned by hamburger meat, or tomatoes, or peanut butter that I picked up at the supermarket. My dream is that the shampoo that I use on my children won’t contain cancer causing ingredients. My dream is that my husband, who works 50 plus hours a week, doing knuckle busting, back breaking work, will be able to stop scraping by and be able to have a little bit of savings. That he will be able to buy more than just the necessities for our family. My dream is that politicians stop playing the game and start fulfilling their promises. That they look to the best interest of the people they are representing and not the people who have the most money. My dream is that my country cares about me and my family. And so 48 years after they were said, Martin Luther King Jr.’s words still ring true. “We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation…We have also come…to remind America of the fierce urgency of Now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy. It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment and to underestimate the determination…” of the 99%. 2011 “is not an end but a beginning.” “Those who hope that the,”99%,”needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America. No, no we are not satisfied and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
And I have a dream in which we all ride around on ponies and eat lady-fingers while swimming in our pool of cash.
Dream on, lady.
Really? Because I don't think any of that is unreasonable. Unless you can provide an argument to defend why it is so unreasonable, other than a sarcastic remark about ponies and ladyfingers, which FYI I want neither a pony, a pool of cash nor do I like ladyfingers, then your comment is rather useless.
Who is going to pay for your dream?
Not me.
Oh you mean my dream of having safe food for my children? That would be the government passing stricter laws regarding meat processing plants that have tested positive for E. Coli to be shut down instead of being allowed to continue to operate because the people with the money (i.e. food companies) rejected it/Lobbied against it ..Look up Kevin's law. Or how about passing a law that prohibits using cancer causing ingredients in hygiene products. Look up Johnson & Johnson. How about not taking out 30% of an individuals gross income. Offering affordable healthcare without taking even more deductions from that individuals paycheck. And instead of a bank looking at a number on a credit application, make them look at actual payment history. Just because a person NEEDS to refinance a loan (which had a high number of payments made) because they work in a business where they require tools, and cannot work if they do not have those tools, which dropped how many payments made back down to zero to start over again, should not make them ineligible to purchase a house.
I didn't ask you or any other taxpayer to pay for MY dream. But while we are at it what about all the people on public aid who are recieving benefits when they are (and I'm not saying all are like this) either doing drugs, working for cash under the table, or standing in an assistance line wearing expensive name brand clothing. You realize you are paying for them right.
Is it so unfathomable that our government should protect innocent people, like children, instead of looking into the best interest of a corportation. And since I am started on food, maybe you should check out the film Food, INC. and tell me who is getting protected.
1) Stopping wall St from a day of trading will not ruin the economy and is tinny in comparison compared to the trillions they stole from us
2) If you are aware of your history Eugene Debbs, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and Jesus Christ were all arrested for trying to make the world a better place. (sorry for those not named)
3)This is not a dress rehearsal it's the real thing. Some of these people haven't been home in days. Not to mention they are the ones most affected by the criminals and may not even have homes.
4) In a crowd that reaches 10s of thousands there is bound to be a few bad apples.
They need supporters who are living well like you and I. Please don't let the TV tell you what to think.
Watch this protester:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zihj6HjWnVc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
you left out the rapes, murders and rampant anti-Semitism...
http://bigjournalism.com/jjmnolte/2011/10/28/occupywallstreet-the-rap-sheet-so-far/print/
I love your post IcareNY. I hope your advice is taken on board and people take it to congress instead.
Hey whatever you do don't upset the status quot, although I believe what you are doing is morally and ethically correct, please wait until I leave the planet before any changed you might make will affect my comfort..Otherwise I'm with you 100% or 99% ..Let's make that 99 and 3/5ths.
Hey Lady...The economy is toast, The stock market is just bad window dressing and everything is failing, it doesn't even need OWS to take it down..It's just going to eat itself alive..
If age matters, I'm 68 years old. Regarding the tactics of Occupy Wall Street, its most fundamental goals are embodied in its title, to occupy Wall Street, a goal which it has yet to accomplish but which it made its most recent effort towards on 11/17. If you supported the movement at first, how is that any different than what it attempted to do on day one (though it is true that day one was a Saturday).
Are you seriously suggested that the 700 people who were arrested on the Brooklyn Bridge including children and the disabled intended for that to happen to them? Most people didn't which explains the boost the movement got after that event. Are you suggesting that people voluntarily bloody themselves in order to turn you off?
People were exercising their First Amendment rights of assembling peaceably for the redress of grievances. For that they were beaten, tear gassed, pepper sprayed, their belongings and a library valued at nearly $40 thousand was turned into garbage. And you are suggesting it was their fault? Many of the people living in Zuccotti Square were homeless, and the NYPD under the direction of Mayor Bloomberg turned their humble abodes into garbage. Talk about disrespect. Just who is disrespecting whom? Homeless people squat in the nooks and crannies of every city in this nation. What Mayor Bloomberg doesn't like about the Occupation is that we are making that fact so obvious and public. He talked about a public health hazard. The biggest public health hazard in Zuccotti Square is the NYPD.
Nobody liked it when Rosa Parks got arrested either, but today she is a national hero. It isn't nice to block the doorways, but so far the nice ways always seem to be failing.
As far as Congress goes while it is not explicitly stated the general position of OWS seems to be that the megacorporations have not only bought most of the politicians, but the political system itself. You can agree or disagree with this, but the fact is, OWS is essentially a movement that exists outside the electoral system.
Are not the homeless, psycotics and drug addicts part of the 99%. OWS wants to build a movement that includes everybody and not just the genteel middle class. That is, of course, a very difficult proposition as your concerns clearly indicate. Nevertheless it seems a noble ideal consistent with the behavior of primative Christians and the historical Jesus who himself threw the money changers out of the temple, broke the law and hung out with whores, revolutionaries and other undesireables.
Finally, OWS is a movement, not an organization. As such it is outside the capacity of an organization to take or refuse advice. Friends and adversaries will continue to should all over the movement. The movement should do this or it should do that, blah, blah. That's fine for an organization and an organization might well take such advice, but that's not what a movement is. By it's very nature it is incapable of taking any advice from anyone, friend or adversary. It will, just continue to plow on, for better or for worse, regardless of what anybody in or out of it thinks of it.
Please don't judge people by how they look. Some of the most slovenly looking people have a better grasp on how this economy works than Ben Bernanke and Tim Geithner. That is why they are focusing on Wall Street. That is where the greed begins. How can they not go into the streets when they have been driven out of Zuccotti Park? Why couldn't Bloomberg let them stay, even give them toilets? What would be the big deal in that? Why do people get arrested for standing or walking on side walks? I don't know, but I think the way the occupiers have been treated is flat out un-American.
This is a fantastic post. Thank you for writing it. The only way that the movement can be cleaned up is if it realizes it needs a smart leader who understands PR. Good PR skills can never come out of a leaderless movement. More here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-becoming-increasingly-unpopular-heres-how-t/
Good post, thanks. I am 71 years old and I take pizza to our "Occupy Fort Collins" group every Monday. This group and the establishment have agreed to disagree without violence. Slow but sure, this group and others like it will wake up the rest of the 99% to the fact that this country has changed, I have witnessed the change over the last 40 years and it has been ugly. Please pass this article on to your "older" friends. Thanks
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/19/us/census-measures-those-not-quite-in-poverty-but-struggling.html?_r=1&hp
Yes definitely go to Washington to end all bailouts. What difference does it make if banks are regulated or not? If they make risky and or stupid moves they will go out of business. The problem is that the federal government rewards them for their stupidity by bailing them out. Fannie and Freddie are prime examples.
Forget about regulations - they never produce their intended results. Just stop crony capitalism, i.e. bailouts and the problem is solved.
Many people who claim they support the general principles underlying the OWS movement have never participated in a direct political protest action. The comment by this woman indicates that she would like to see change, but she is not willing to engage in a process that interferes with her comfort zone. She seems more worried about the impression of others and what it looks like in (MSM reports). Dear nice older lady, I suggest you seek other sources for how you derive your impression of the movement and how it looks. If you merely stick to the mainstream media for your impressions, you will not hear, or see much of the truth about this movement. Most media was hijacked by the 1% long ago. I am an older gentleman, highly educated, I m not unemployed, poor, or in debt, but I support the activism of this movement 100%. Unfortunately, if you saw me on the street, you might think I am homeless, or even an addict. I'm disheveled looking, very thin and unshaven. I don't look like you want me to. The message of this movement is perfectly clear, but most media want to obscure it - don't be their drone. You have to choose, support the movement, or support the status quo.
Many people who claim they support the general principles underlying the OWS movement have never participated in a direct political protest action. The protests directed toward Wall St. are to focus attention on the corruption that originates from there. The comment by this woman indicates that she would like to see change, but she is not willing to engage in a process that interferes with her comfort zone. She seems more worried about the impression of others and what it looks like in (MSM reports). Dear nice older lady, I suggest you seek other sources for how you derive your impression of the movement and how it looks. If you merely stick to the mainstream media for your impressions, you will not hear, or see much of the truth about this movement. Most media was hijacked by the 1% long ago. I am an older gentleman (64), highly educated, I am not unemployed, poor, or in debt, but I support the activism of this movement 100%. Unfortunately, if you saw me on the street, you might think I am homeless, or even an addict. I'm disheveled, thin and unshaven. I don't look like you want me to. The message of this movement is perfectly clear, but most media want to obscure it - don't be their drone. You have to choose, support the movement, or support the status quo. Working within the status quo is completely ineffective. And I know from experience it perpetuates it.
There's always the possibility that those who are against Occupy payed or otherwise encouraged individuals to act in irresponsible ways when the cameras were around (I believe they are sometimes called "plants"). I don't have any evidence of this, but I wouldn't put it past them. Question everything.
YOU SOUND LIKE A BOXED IN FOOL. its the people who keep voting of the politicians. And yes the system needs to be crashed. The system is corrupted at the core and can not be fixed. Im pissed at OWS for not attacking the brooklyn bridge the other day and shutting it down while blocking people from their spaced out drive home from work. As long as we just wander around from tv show to tv show and one political party to the next, we will just slip into nuclear dust. Listen older woman, put down your little tea cup and walk out of your plastic world and go sit down in an intersection somewhere with a sign that says "i am a part of the revolution to bring in a sustainable fair system, PEAPLE OVER PROFIT" THEN MAYBE YOUR LIFE WILL HAVE BEEN WORTH IT
The corporate media projection of Occupy is far from reality. 32,000 people peacefully marched in NYC last night after dozens were brutally beaten and arrested for exercising their constitutional rights of speech and assembly.
Police have been dumping homeless, drunks and prison parolees at Zuccotti Park. Agent provocateurs and undercover cops have been provoking and instigating violence.
Turn off the TV, go to a General Assembly. You will be amazed.
We are not try to take down the economy, we are trying to prevent the banks from taking it down even further. When the economy crashes even deeper, and the politicians hand them more of our money, where will you be standing?
I agree 100% (see my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-percenter-ready-to-join-if/ ) I, think we have more power in the COMSUMER domain than the political domain.
PLEASE read my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-please-support-the-american-worker/ where I provide guidance on how OWS can effect REAL change, RIGHT NOW. We can RESHAPE American business, and we don't need permission from the POLITICIANS or CORPORATIONS !
How are you going to do this exactly?
I can't repost all the material here. See http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ for a discussion of the need for us all to consider the total SOCIAL COST of a product rather than mere sticker price alone as has been our norm. You presumably already read the post I gave above with specific recommendations for this Christmas.
OWS is largely comprised of the Twitter/Facebook generation, and we have already seen the power of social networks in the Arab Spring. I am asking OWS supports to USE their social networks to get people to change their behaviors as consumers.
I for one have already distributed my "Made in the USA" Christmas list which includes the local store where the items can be purchased to my family and friends. I have asked that they do the same in return. This reflects one man influencing 20 people. Imagine if all OWS supporters did the same, then imagine what happens if they get their friends and associates to do the same again ?
Every person in America feels a little guilty buying foreign made goods. This "movement" allows every American to make a little protest against out-sourcing every time they buy. They don't need to do anything 'radical' and they don't need to buy into a whole basket of a politicians agendas, they just need to do the right one purchase at a time.
Once we have some jobs back, we can start working on getting people to widen their perspective and consider SOCIAL COST rather than sticker price alone.
Thank you, and wholeheartedly agree, it is the politicians who have sold us down the road, they need to be held accountable, respect for self and others is sorely lacking in our society today.
OWS needs to post a list of demands on their website and give visitors to the website the ability to vote on each demand. eg. Right to work/ no more unions, a limit to campaign spending, no more money printing, restructure home loans now. etc. The total number of votes should display next to the demand. Which ever demands get the greatest number of votes over a defined period of time, should become the demands of OWS. They can get the names of the voters and use it as a petition as well.
That's a really good idea.
Unfortunately I think it will be subject to the same shenanigans as the like / dislike buttons.
remove the like/dislike buttons since it is a voting poll it should be very specific and the voter responds with I agree or disagree.
That is a good idea. At least they would have direct response showing somewhere.
Point 1 - They had to take strong measures such as sleeping outdoors in hard conditions to make people take notice in the first place. If they had not done that - Would we be having this conversation at all? Give it time. Rome wasn't built in a day. Point 2 - They do not always have complete control of the image represented by the media. The sources of information you get information from can determine the picture that is painted. So beware propaganda such as that from Rep. Peter King (repeatedly and falsely painted a picture of filthy animals sleeping in their own feces and urine) who is obviously trying to smear their image so people will not take them seriously. Point 3 - a sloppy appearance only proves a sloppy person, not a drug addict. A person observed using drugs proves a drug user. Just simple logic. Point 4 - You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs - hence the notion of civil disobedience. Who are you telling not to get arrested? The neatly attired retired Philadelphia Police Captain who got arrested. Or the S.E.I.U. labor leaders, also not sloppy, who got arrested? Point 5 - At the beginning of the message, you state pulling your support but conclude at the end that you want them to succeed. Are you confused? You appear confused and it diminishes the meaning of your message. Perhaps, you should be better organized and focus a bit more on the meaning of your message. After all, it is not so much the words you write but the perception people have of what you write. Do you get the point of the sarcasm?
I don't think there's anything to be gained from street protesting anymore. You have already got the medias attention. You did that . SO now what ? Now all that is happening is the potential for them to destroy you, especially when a few folks get unruly. They did it in the 60s. Take it to another level - organize but perhaps more so on the web - have meet ups - still have a few rallies but stop sleeping in the street . But the more people read about arrests and unruly behviour the more the oppostion wins. just my opinion.
When you stand up against rulers, by default you appear unruly.
Anything OWS does to call attention to their cause is going to be perceived by some people as unruly, because by default, it is. People either support - or even join in - this unruliness because they either agree or don't agree with the cause of the unruliness. The only reason I posted on this topic in the first place is because I think it is counterproductive to support an unruly cause and then moan about it when it appears unruly. You simply have to make up your mind whether this unruly cause is something you support or don't, but don't dance around on the fence all day.
Take it to another level? - Occupy Websites won't work. It isn't symbolically powerful enough to make people notice. Would you take a thanksgiving parade to the web? The spectators would be denied the giant balloons to gawk at. They have to gather in the streets and utilize symbolic marches across, say, our nation's decaying infrastructure to draw attention. Things that get people to notice. And hopefully KNOCK (symbolically speaking) more people off the safety of their fence.
Simple logic works if the person is a logical thinker but as evidence proves there are only a percentage of people that think in a logical pattern.
I think you only succeeded in making a point about yourself
" let banks fail. "
This is what this generation wants. Democrat and Republican alike.
I am a older woman (over 50) and my support for the movement is stronger than ever. First, NYPD surrounded & raided Liberty Plaza with force yesterday after a policeman filmed a few protestors jumping and moving a fence back away (a fence the cops were trying to corral protestors in). Also , the young man with blood all over his head & in pain brushed a cop's hat off his head...so NYPD came out in full force & brutality & there was no reason to beat the young protestor like that! Second, Occupy's purpose to shut down Wall Street for a few hours was just to send a message! Lastly, not all people look or dress alike! I remember being called a dirty hippie because I had long hair, wore jeans with holes & was barefooted, but I showered everyday!
An older woman that goes by the name of RockyJ? LOL
My real name is Roxanne, it was my grade school nick name after Rocky J Squirrel (I was always blasting off) I was a spunky kid & now I am a spunky older woman!
J is also the real initial of my middle name!
Lady, you don't even understand the "movement" in the first place. It wants to overthrow our government - or did you miss that? That they use some class warfare complaints that you "agree" with doesn't change that a bit. They don't want to change the system by gaining political power in the existing system. You and so many others out there who support these folks should wake up and realize you are supporting a revolution - that is their aim.
Of course don't ask whether any of their absurd Utopian ideas could actually create a prosperous society or even work in any real way. They will just mumble stuff about mutual aid, horizontal organizations and maybe Kropotkin - in other words, they mostly have the understanding of political philosophy and economics that you'd expect from a sophomore undergrad, but that doesn't slow them down. Don't support them - they are wrong and if they ever did get what they think they want it would be a nightmare for all of us that would have you calling the current state of affairs 'the good old days'.
Here is an Open Letter to the "Real" Occupy Wall Streeters from a Libertarian. http://libertariancomment.com/an-open-letter-to-the-real-occupy-wall-streeters-from-a-libertarian/
You are so wrong its almost funny! There's a difference between to trying to fix a system that no longer works for the people but for a select few than trying to take over the country! You're obviously scared of us so making up lies & reading more into the movement to try to discredit us just isn't working. The movement is way beyond that & that's why the 1% & the fools that support their destruction of our planet & greed are so dam scared! BOO!
the media will say whatever they want.
yes let banks fail.
complain to the police about the arrests. not us.
people released from rykers island were sent here by the police and others to make the movement look bad.
as far as the disorganization, the only alternative is hierarchy.
I cant argue for what someone else posted, But to call his/her opinion invalid is kinda rude. Everyone see things differently.
My issues is.. Move it to the next step- what ever that may be.
Nit picking back and forth wont help either of us lol
The banks received bailouts at our expense. So basically, the taxpayers paid the bankers' bonuses even though they committed massive fraud. Law professor and criminologist William K. Black has a lot of information on this.
One thing is for sure. You need the population on your team, so you need to consider their concerns. Comments like hers should be taken as constructive criticism because their is wisdom in her words. If you turn the population against you, you will not succeed. As for living in a tent, that is more counter productive than productive. Everyone should be home flooding the multitude of mass communication options with OWS chatter, engaging the billions of people who are in their homes chatting. Not outside in the dark cold elements getting sick and becoming a liability to the movement. Maybe you should consider dressing like you are going for a job interview when marching. You do want people to notice you, take you serious and feel like they should be a part of your movement. MARCH DURING THE DAY AND FLOOD THE AIRWAYS AT NIGHT. STAY HEALTHY, STAY STRONG, STAY VIGILANT.
I liked her comment, she has valid concerns.
I also like what OWS has done, they made a one time statement with an action.
I'm sure that action did not go exactly as planned, but then few things do.
It still made a statement and that is important.
The arrests are also a statement. A statement from the 'state' and by the protester. The state says no, the protester says YES!
Excellent response!
Howard Dean supported 11/17/11 and he wears a nice grey suit. You are choosing to see it how you want to but not the way it actually is.
AKR- I think you missed the point.
No, I got the point. Image is important, but it's just stupid to talk about OWS like they're all getting crazy and getting arrested, when in reality, it's .00001% of people doing that. An insignificant number, and many of the arrests are unjustified, so the point is invalid. You want 32 thousand people to take the blame for 200 people, many of which couldn't even help being arrested because they did nothing wrong? As if we could or should do anything about it for the sake of image.
Come back when ten thousand protestors are trashing the place and you'll have a "point" that could be missed. Until then, there is no point.
Might only be a few but read the papers and then see what the perception is. Where I work the talk is is all against for reasons I just stated - that is a shame
You maybe correct but what the masses are listening too is the media and the internet comments and it is not making this movement look good at all.
Why must one wait until ten thousand protestors are trashing the place before enforcing the law. Where no law has been broken, that is one matter. Once Occupants start breaking the law, they need to be treated exactly like any other citizen would be treated. I saw a great video of Occupants being arrested in exactly the right way. They were respectful of the police, held out their hands to be cuffed, gave no resistance to the arrest. It made me feel good about them. When I see people shouting and screaming at police officers who are merely enforcing city laws, I lose respect for the screamers. If officers feel threatened like that, they are likely to be more severe as they will take fewer risks of engagement.
I am thankful, however, that most of the movement is not like that. I've given a lot more positive consideration to Occupy Wall Street movement in the following article:
http://thegreatrecession.info/blog/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-now-unoccupied-but-stronger/
If I wore a hat, I'd take my hat off to those occupy peaceably and who do not infringe on the rights of others to enjoy public access. They are the 99% of the 99%. It is, I'm sure, only 1% of the 99% who are breaking the law.
(And wherever police overreact or make requirements that go beyond what the law requires, they should certainly be punished.)
--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog
This is a bit ignorant...On #1- The stock market opening a little late isnt going to destroy the Global Economy. Or make banks fail. Stocks being traded is just the movement of paper, unless a stock price falls 90%, which didnt even happen when September 11th forced the closure of the exchange. This is part of Wall Street's bullshit propaganda, that THEY ARE the Economy, not us. That everything should be about whether the Dow went up today or not, something right wing shitheads think is true... Jeez, the economy is moving all around us, in the trucks delivering goods. The banks' 10,000 branches making loans and deposits are unaffected by the stock market. Who is affected? The owners of capital. Its not like we'll ever succeed in closing it for more than an hour, and that would be a smashingly unbelievable victory that would go down in history books. It would also create alot of blood as every cop in the city is mobilized with riot gear to DEFCON 1 if the market was closed 5 minutes.
I don't think it is ignorant in the slightest. No one has the right to block access to the stock market or to block public streets. Doing so brings discredit to worthy cause. One person's freedom to protest does not give them the right to interfere with another person's freedom to get to work. Not everyone inside those buildings is corrupt. Even if they were, you don't fight illegal activity with illegal activity of your own. I am thankful that many, many protestors have avoided such approaches.
So, whether it destroys the global economy is really irrelevant. You don't have the right to put your freedom ahead of others. You do have the right to protest but must do so in ways that do not impinge on the freedoms of other people.
--Knave Dave (Willing to say things all sides don't like if those things are true.) http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog
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The correct word is LOSING not loosing. Example: When I set my dogs loose in my backyard, I somehow managed to lose my diamond ring. Cheers! Have a nice day!
You do understand that giving tax breaks to the people who own companies and hire Americans is a time tested and proven strategy to increase employment right? That argument holds no water and is why this movement is losing the sad following it has had. Without clearly established concerns and realistic ideas to fix the issues, you can not be successful. And continuing to let the uneducated thugs be your mouth piece for this "Movement" only furthers the distane for it.
Not true. Putting it simply. You think that if the owner of a company, that builds washing machines, is given $1,000,000 he is going to build more washing machines when he already has a 1000 washing machines in inventory. He is not going to hire anyone to build more washing machines until his inventory is sold down. This can not happen because the people who need washing machines have lost their jobs and have no money. Now take that same $1,000,000 and give it to 2000 people ( $500 each ) who need a washing machine. The washing machine maker will be hiring people tomorrow because his inventory is gone and there are still 1000 people who need a washing machine from him. Economics 101 DEMAND CREATES SUPPLY , supply does not create demand. The really cool thing is that the people he hired to build 2000 more washing machines, all get a paycheck. They all need a new microwave, so they go buy one. Now the microwave builder needs more microwaves. He hires people to build them and they get a paycheck. They all need shoes for their families. Now the shoemaker has to make more shoes .......
You are 100% right in so far as you go. The poster following you is also right as far as he/she takes it.
As for companies leaving in record numbers this actually isn't so...the plans and the building of the infrastructure to make the move began long ago, it's just at this time it's now in place.
It's funny how things work. Companies leave an area because of perceived disadvantages and enter another area because of perceived advantages, yet once the company has made that move those advantages begin to chip away.
The old disadvantages begin to not look so bad.
People will do what they have always done, start up cottage industries and bide their time.
It's going to be interesting in 10 years when things shift once again and companies begin outsourcing jobs to America among other places.
It's not a supply and demand issue. It is a when it gets to expensive to run a buisness in your country, the buisness moves elsewhere issue. No companies, no jobs! They need to be incentivised because currently (and mostly due to the current administrations regulatory policies) companies are leaving the US at record numbers.
I think if you look into it more you will find that many companies who jumped on that short sited money saving scheme are already learning it was a mistake and are moving back to this country.For the rest you are right and that is where our government has failed the population because they, in reality, are looking out for big money and not the people. I truly believe that the population can come together as a unified mass. That force is what this country was founded on, a unified population. Government for the people by the people not government for big money by big money. You really think this gone astray government or a bunch of rich puppeteers won't snap to when they come face to face with a united nation of over educated pissed off Americans.This government is for the people by the people.There are some who just need a little reminder. The Peoples Government imposes import tariffs to "incentivise" companies to build in America. The "current administrations regulatory policies" were put in place by government for big money by big money. That is not the government our fore fathers gave us. This movement is young. Going for a new objective is a learning process. Some things work, some don't. You learn from your mistakes. You listen to constructive criticism objectively. And if you stay the coarse, you master your objective. We need to wake up, we have been complacent to long. Look at all the intelligent chatter going on about it around here. This is a lot deeper than the press is portraying it. Americans are smart enough to figure out how to avoid being demonized so easily by the press. Looks promising to me. Everybody's talking and everybody's listening. That's Great.
We need direct democracy to bypass the politicians, the banks and Wall Street. "When the government fears the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
The National Initiative empowers us to check and balance representatives, similar to ballot initiatives in 24 States, but at all levels from local to national and with major improvements. It gives us a "Plan B" whenever representatives don't represent us. Torture, perpetual wars and debt, domestic spying and bailouts for the rich do not represent us. People tried to get this power from Congress, both in 1907 and 1977, with no success. Rather than beg the existing 13 Legislatures to ratify the Constitution, the Founders had delegates of The People ratify the Constitution at the Constitutional Conventions. James Madison said "The people were in fact, the fountain of all power, and by resorting to them, all difficulties were got over." Please spread the word: http://vote.org/
That all sounds wonderful and great but first you have to get most of the 99% to believe in your movement. There are too many working against you since they have the media and the money to ruin it.
you're right the power elite and the bourgeoisie are working against us: www.umich.edu/~umforum/Issue2/Issue2-p11.pdf but we must undercut their power, from within and from without ... i used to think we needed to pressure from outside only, but I have come to believe that pressure must be exerted at all levels.
The movement can't wait for the masses to come to them, they need to spread out and start talking to everyone to educate them on the truth.
Barb, Please consider the Civil Rights movement as well as the movement to kick the British out of India. What lead to real, meaningful change? After a group of people seeking to protect their interests unified around a common theme, they took action. OWS is seeking to build a coalition ... that's why there is this forum so that we can try to form a consensus and take action. People do need education, but the Civil Rights movement was not won by educating people in a strict sense, but it was that Americans began to see the sheer injustice in a society that intentionally excludes people from meaningful participation. Public sentiment shifts when the brute force of the state is demonstrated for all to see. Just as now that Americans are seeing how oppressive officers are to non-violent protesters through the use of mace, rubber bullets, etc. People are starting to change their view of governments. They are beginning to see just how much our institutions have betrayed us. A picture is worth a thousand words, and thus the image of brutality against OWS has shifted journalists' perspective on the movement, even if their corporate masters are still trying to PR spin this against OWS. Remember when OWS began? There was almost 0 coverage of the movement! Now the media covers it everyday, even though Bloomberg jailed reporters for covering the story.
http://rt.com/usa/news/press-nypd-arrest-bloomberg-689/ Even the President, who I think has betrayed Americans' interests on many occasions, said that he supports OWS.
Dear FelixNova, Both of those are great ideas. When i say go around, I mean both ... vote.org has a good notion of how to do this, and so do the Young Turks ... in Colorado a referendum passed limiting the rights of corporations ... notice how the media censored this very important news!!!! Power to the people and fuck fascist oppression! This referendum denies free speech rights to corporations, thereby limiting campaign finance from corporations ... even sensible libertarians would likely agree that corporations should have no legal rights or the right to limit liability. Limiting liability creates moral hazard (in economic speak). If a national referendum method were adopted and this question came up again, the majority of Americans tired of getting pillaged would say a big fuck you to corporatism: http://current.com/1i7aikc
I used to think the struggle should be waged from the outside ... but the truth is that the fight must be waged on all fronts ... it is not just that we are marginalized outside of the establishment, but war is waged on us on numerous fronts: ideologically, economically, educationally, socially, institutionally, psychologically, militarily, through devaluation of the dollar, through monopolies like the AMA (the US Supreme Court ruled that AMA violated Sherman Anti-trust law, of which health insurance companies are exempt from), etc. Thus why should we choose only path to respond?
www.umich.edu/~umforum/Issue2/Issue2-p11.pdf
I live in Arizona and this state has the worst reputation for being a police state and brutality. That is why there weren't that many protestors in the Phoenix area because they are too afraid of Joe Arpaio. He is the most corrupt sheriff that will go down in history in the nation. The fact that this man was re=elected so many times explains there are too many people that are ignorant and only hear what they want to hear and they disregard the rest. That is why this movement needs to come to some sort of agreement on a catchy slogan that everyone is carrying to broadcast their main goal. I realize there are many issues that need to be addressed but you still must start with one main one so the masses get what you are about instead of being confused on what you are trying to accomplish.
People cannot handle too many drastic changes in how we always do things here in America and that is why the movement is being viewed negatively by many people. All they remember is the 60's or what they have been told about it.
I do understand why you don't want a leader but at least have a few people that are great at public speaking so your views can be heard loud and clear.
One question every citizen in the world must ask oneself, what is our goal? Consider Karl Marx, who took up the question of human emancipation. It was the question of human emancipation as distinct from political emancipation on which Karl Marx distinguished himself from Bauer and other radical Hegelians:
"Marx makes one of the most enduring arguments from his early writings, by means of introducing a distinction between political emancipation — essentially the grant of liberal rights and liberties — and human emancipation. Marx's reply to Bauer is that political emancipation is perfectly compatible with the continued existence of religion, as the contemporary example of the United States demonstrates. However, pushing matters deeper, in an argument reinvented by innumerable critics of liberalism, Marx argues that not only is political emancipation insufficient to bring about human emancipation, it is in some sense also a barrier. Liberal rights and ideas of justice are premised on the idea that each of us needs protection from other human beings. Therefore liberal rights are rights of separation, designed to protect us from such perceived threats. Freedom on such a view, is freedom from interference. What this view overlooks is the possibility — for Marx, the fact — that real freedom is to be found positively in our relations with other people. It is to be found in human community, not in isolation. So insisting on a regime of rights encourages us to view each other in ways which undermine the possibility of the real freedom we may find in human emancipation. Now we should be clear that Marx does not oppose political emancipation, for he sees that liberalism is a great improvement on the systems of prejudice and discrimination which existed in the Germany of his day. Nevertheless, such politically emancipated liberalism must be transcended on the route to genuine human emancipation. Unfortunately, Marx never tells us what human emancipation is, although it is clear that it is closely related to the idea of non-alienated labour" http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/
Yes, instead of sitting around camping at a park ... Get off your butts, go home and start educating your community.
iconoclast wrote: We need direct democracy to bypass the politicians, the banks and Wall Street.END----
Article 5 of the US constitution is direct democratic control over the operating parameters of the federal government, just as you state.
Article V conference, Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-other attendee video comments http://vimeo.com/31464745
ON EDIT: I just noticed that Senator Gravel was featured on that site and that he is finally mentioning Article V. Five months ago is was all about ballot initiatives. I had pointed out that only ballot initiatives for an article V convention were going to be comprehensive.-
Inquiry to Gravel was not successful then. Is anyone getting any response from him now?
he was recently on the keiser report, i think he just got back from Switzerland, where democratic referendums are common. i hope that is why you have been unsuccesful in reaching him: rt.com/programs/keiser-report/keiser-report-209-max/
We need direct democracy to bypass the politicians, the banks and Wall Street. "When the government fears the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
The National Initiative empowers us to check and balance representatives, similar to ballot initiatives in 24 States, but at all levels from local to national and with major improvements. It gives us a "Plan B" whenever representatives don't represent us. Torture, perpetual wars and debt, domestic spying and bailouts for the rich do not represent us. People tried to get this power from Congress, both in 1907 and 1977, with no success. Rather than beg the existing 13 Legislatures to ratify the Constitution, the Founders had delegates of The People ratify the Constitution at the Constitutional Conventions. James Madison said "The people were in fact, the fountain of all power, and by resorting to them, all difficulties were got over." Please spread the word: http://vote.org/
We need direct democracy to bypass the politicians, the banks and Wall Street. "When the government fears the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
The National Initiative empowers us to check and balance representatives, similar to ballot initiatives in 24 States, but at all levels from local to national and with major improvements. It gives us a "Plan B" whenever representatives don't represent us. Torture, perpetual wars and debt, domestic spying and bailouts for the rich do not represent us. People tried to get this power from Congress, both in 1907 and 1977, with no success. Rather than beg the existing 13 Legislatures to ratify the Constitution, the Founders had delegates of The People ratify the Constitution at the Constitutional Conventions. James Madison said "The people were in fact, the fountain of all power, and by resorting to them, all difficulties were got over." Please spread the word: http://vote.org/
karenpoore wrote: I have been following since day one, but I am not in agreement with your strategies and direction.END----
Consider that demands without citation of the authority to meet them is folly, basically complaining. The demands are so huge, that the size of authority must be the largest. Basically the protestors use their constitutional rights, but never talk about that which gives them the right to do so. IF they were tlaking about defending that which gives the right to assemble, the constitution, and doing it well, there would be widespread support.-
However, I do not think there is any way to get even dialog on the subject from the multitude of leaders. They might listen, but they won't provide opinon based in fact, because that would show their strategy is flawed or seeking to overthrow the government which is in place unconstitutionally, but using their constitutional rights to do it:) -
littleguy wrote: One thing is for sure. You need the population on your team, MARCH DURING THE DAY AND FLOOD THE AIRWAYS AT NIGHT. STAY HEALTHY, STAY STRONG, STAY VIGILANT.END---
Using a robust understanding of Article 5 of the US constitution will gain a majority of the populations support AND make it so any law enforcement working against you, could easily be seen as working against the defense of the constitution. PARTICULARLY if the protest structures its demands strictly within the due process of Article 5. The suggestion that protest at congress be made is better than Wall street, but there is no legal authority for the populations protest there. Protest at the states capitols demanding that state legislations act to enforce Article 5 of the constitution IS within due process. With Article 5, and the methods in caps at the end, we will win!----
barb wrote: Come up with new ideas of how to get your real message across that all can agree on and have a real solution so you can act on it.END-----
Article 5 is an old idea, but it IS the fabled "democratic control over the republic". Americans can agree upon this.
Great post IcareNY !
Article 5 would be great...there might be a small issue according to this.
http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
I made that page.
There is a big issue with congress. They have been violating their oath, "support and defense for the constitution" "without mental reserve" and failing to call an article 5 convention for about 100 years. There is an occupy starting up at congress soon and this matter should be central. It would be excellent if congress did the right thing. Never know with congress.
Pressure from the states legislatures should get a convention called. Congress pretended they had interpreted the constitution correctly and didn't count application, then didn't application for amendment as a call for article V, but when they do not amend as requested the constitution implies it is an application for an article 5. As it is, with the misrepresentations, congress wants to say that states applicaitons must be specifically for article 5. Meaning 2 more states need to apply by that measure, but technically no.-
I think that congress has run the nation into a ditch and they gotta' get out from behind the wheel and sober up.
We have congresspersons so firmly entrenched that it would likely take something pretty drastic to move them...with the 'old guard' positions being practically handed down by the simple expediency of Name Recognition, it's nearly guaranteed that nothing will change and no Article 5 will be acknowledged, always there will be some justification for the lack.
As far as I can see, OWS has accomplished one major thing in these two months, and that is gaining the attention of voters...making those same voters actually pay attention, to realize that the things they've been thinking for the past 30 years are also thought by others, that they are NOT alone.
With any luck, this time when the tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear, there will be a NOISE, a roar, that we, the people, will no longer be ignored.
PandoraK wrote: it's nearly guaranteed that nothing will change and no Article 5 will be acknowledged, always there will be some justification for the lack.END-----
People were complacent and the economy had not yet been trashed. Now they are getting educated in masses. Article 5 was something that media would not share at all. Now people have the web.-----
Congress cannot ignore the constitution IF the people are watching. There has never been a protest demanding congress convene an article 5.
Also, there is lots of misinfo about article 5. Wiki has a real bad one,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_to_propose_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Third paragraph down,
Congress has the power to choose between two methods of ratification: ratification by the state legislatures, or instead ratification by state conventions called for that purpose
Wrong.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.-------
may is if the states do not ratify. Read where "shall" is located.
Voters=people...ok?
Absolutely, people have the vote. Voters=people
Elections systems need to be secured and I've not found good accountability for that yet except for on the county levels.
Even on the county levels there's always going to be someone looking for the 'fix'.
We'll be watching a good bit more carefully from now on I'd imagine...before too many weren't really paying attention.
Oh yes. There needs to be some classes added to junior and high school curriculum to include voting and law. Let me note here that media is absoutely out of control and has to be muzzled and chained to the floor before people are going to break out of their comfort trance.
There needs to be a national forum where systems are vetted with state delegates dealing with amendment proposals to reform systems in their state finding security and compatiblity.
Internet forums are perfect for this because the people can see the exchanges in an official forum and make comment in a public forum with a polling feature. When ideas see approval over a certain level the delegate is notified and must examine what the public has determined.
The problem would be getting the delegate to examine rather than delegating the responsibility to an 'underling' so 'only the most important' reaches him/her...
That's what many don't seem to get, it's not getting 'the people' to do their part, it's the other half that keeps falling down on the job and most likely will continue to do so...Human nature, "I'm a delegate and there fore my time is important" syndrome.
The state delegates for an article 5 would not be current federal or state incumbents so that attitude will probably be limited. It is likely that the numbers of votes of the electoral college for each state would be the delegates per state.-----
With web forums and the polling function properly used, I think any issue can be well addressed by the public given time.
Time...something we may or may not have enough...it's so many possibles and not enough time to test them all...
Let's try to fix what we have before we try to add to it or change it.
That is exactly the idea. There is a system in place with a bunch of people that believe in it. Rather than oppose them, examine the system that is broke, observe how to fix it, then work with them to restore constitutional government.---
Unity is what is important. Time issues can be overcome by agreement which can theoretically happen instantly. All a matter of info and perspective.
I, for at least one, am rooting for the failure of the 11 or so TBTF banks. I was sad the opportunity was missed in 2008. The unfeeling, viciousness of capitalism should have put the bankers out of business and living in a tent instead of the govt socializing their losses.
I would love to see the corrupt fail, too, and also go to prison; but I don't want to see banks fail because the movement illegally blocks access to them. How can you fight corruption with lawbreaking and get anywhere.
Hats off, however, to the MANY who do not block access, but stand near access and protest the greed and corruption of the few!
--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog
Hi KnaveDave,
I agree.
My preference for their failure is to not have the government bail them out, to end stimulus, and stop quantitative easing. The banks are already unprofitable, oversized, over-resourced and over-paid. Congress and the Fed just need to stop giving them money.
I don't think we need protesters to break the law either to accomplish this.
Two years ago, when the bailouts were first beginning I wrote an article syndicated to a few newspapers about our addiction to size. One of the main points I argued agains was the manner in which the government was coercively solving the problem of failed banks that were two big to fail by merging them with other equally large banks to now create monsters that were twice the size ... even while telling us that the sole reason they had to intervene was because these institutions were too big to fail. It's a mental sickness our culture has. That's why structured bankruptcy would have been the right approach -- breaking down the bloated and dying institutions to the parts that are healthy enough or legitimate enough to carry on (as separate smaller corporations), and letting the rest of the beleaguered organism die of.
(I tried to give the article a humorous take. You can read it here if you are interested: http://thegreatrecession.info/blog/2009/01/downtime-collapse-of-the-colossus . I think it will really give you a sense of just how awful the solution was and how MANY banks became even BIGGER because of the "solutions.")
--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog
[Removed]
Although - I have been saying from the beginning the protestors should dress better, the men especially, dressing like your in a Garage band. If they dressed as if they wanted to impress the girls there, millions more could identify. Of course, nothing pisses them off more than being told that...
People should dress like they NORMALLY dress for work and just be who they are. If the critics want to judge a whole movement by the clothes of some, then they are shallow at best.
--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog
Ok...we'll stay on wall street, thanks for the advise Grandma. And learn to spell.