Forum Post: I am Dropping Out - I do not fit in here
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 20, 2011, 3:54 p.m. EST by webmouth
(46)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I did a couple of tours downtown denver. Occupy the fed is my focus. but I am a small business owner ,working my arse off to grow a company and to someday hire people that "want" to work WITH me. but after hearing interviews of people in this group over the past few days, I am not with you. If I work real hard and grow my company from making 3k / month to someday making 10-20k per month, you will kill me and my family. You will strip everything away from me because I am an evil "rich" capitalist. You will find no regard for the 18 hour days i put in for years to get this little company to profit and status as an employer. It makes me cringe to think about it. It is NOT what this country was built on. The men and women who fought and died to create a new country and who you can not argue are responsible for the right to stand and do nothing but yell did not do it so that you could one day strip others of the prosperity. They did it to secure yours and my prosperity. You no longer have my support. L8ter
people call this person a troll represent a segment of what is wrong with OWS, you will Not gain sympathizers by brandishing everyone that disagrees with you a troll, yes there are some trolls out thre but from what I read this person did not sound too "trollish".
I agree. This is not a troll.
Sorry, but accusing people of wanting to "kill him and his family" is stupidity at its height. Does he actually believe that? Is it remotely possible to believe that in a rational world? I am giving him the benefit of the doubt when I call him a troll.
I agree with you there are way too many anti-capitalist left wingers who blame rich people for everyone's problems when the rich actually pay more taxes and create more jobs than the bottom 80 percent combined. Capitalism is not the problem, we don't even have capitalism- we have a form of fascism/statism/crony capitalism- which is definitely NOT real capitalism and it is not anything that 'emerges' from capitalism either. the reason why shit is the way it is now is because of a corrupt federal government and federal reserve that collude with wall st and control the business cycle through the money supply. the government accepts bribes and passes laws in favor of corporations that they have ownership over, hence their portfolio returns being better than many legitimate hedge funds. the problem is the Fed and the federal government, not rich ppl.
check it bitches
http://www.moneytrendsresearch.com/capitalism-and-wall-st-not-the-problem-end-the-fed-occupy-d-c/
I stopped blaming others for beeing guilty for the problems we face because I realized that all the people, even the richest, only did what the society expected them to do (Minus the few guys who stick at nothing and which mostly hide in the background and persuade others to do their dirty job). And I did my homework and did some research and found the relatively new theory called debitism and it explained a lot. So if you want to learn more follow the link.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/maybe-this-will-get-the-support-of-mainstream-medi/
exactly
You must be talking to the wrong people. No one wants to kill rich capitalists or their families. Also, 20-30k a month is not the "1%" we are fighting.
All we want, at least from my understanding, and what I am personally pushing for is a reform of campaign contributions and lobbying. As it stands, it places an unfair, skewed representation in the government. What I want is a level playing field, where my voice is equal to that of the rich, and the corporations, and the unions.
It cannot be denied that a large part of the population is feeling unheard and unrepresented. We have a right to petition Congress according to the First amendment. It was placed there by the founders for this exact purpose.
exactly
This movement is about removing the corporate special interests from Washington, and fixing a political and banking system that doesn't work for most people. it is also about working together for the betterment of humanity instead of standing by and watching us all self destruct. I never once heard here that anybody was against a small business owner. Good luck to you and your family. Sorry you feel the need to leave. Check out www.themultitude.org. You may like that forum better.
I think you are a troll or you arent talking to people who understand what OWS is about.
If you earn your money without exploiting people, the environment, or businesses almost no one in this movement will have a problem with you. And the majority rule here.
Hypothetically, let's say the OP is running a restaurant. What wage should he/she pay his staff as to not exploit them? Would his food have to be all natural free range?
Free range no because we could never support the world population like that realistically. But i have worked in a chicken barn, since you want to touch that topic, and i could not eat anything with chicken or eggs in it for 2 years after i quit. A dozen chickens in a small cage that would not be big enough for a English Setter. Some dead. None had feathers. It was pretty sick. Pigs are the same way. Sows are kept in pens that they cant even lay down in. Some die of a heart attack running up the ramp on the truck because of lack of any exercise. That is also one reason why pork is so extremely fatty compared to beef. Wild boar are not near as fatty as their domestic cousins.
Something does need to be done with that but its not really the point. But that needs to be done on the production end not the consumption end.
Wages should be a fair wage for the area. I consider a fair wage to be value of goods or services produced( on average) minus employer's cost for employing that person( taxes , workmans comp ins,benefits, etc) - minus a % for profit( this depends on the business)= wage. This depends mainly on how productive an employee is. The more productive and better quality work should be rewarded with raises as they make the owner more money.
This is something i got from running a construction company. Employees who were productive got paid more. Employees who cost me money were let go and replaced or if they were trying they were offered a wage reduction instead of firing. All employees always made me at least a bit of profit per man hour. The ones that didnt were not employees long.
A good example i use of my statement you replied too is seafood. I love seafood. We can only eat so much because if you eat to much you will get mercury poisoning. This is because toxic waste that was not properly regulated made its way into the waterways and then the ocean. So because some ahole wanted to make more money he risk my health, screwed up the environment and hurt businesses in the seafood industry( since consumption would be higher if it didnt have mercury in it) all in the name of greed. The people responsible for this should be in a prison not making business decisions.
Great answer. Seriously.
Don't know where you got the idea that we are against a small business owner...
I do know where he got that idea. A lot of the people involved in this movement are very anti-business and anti-success. A lot of the people here have simply never considered how much more difficult it is to be a job creator than it is to simply work one job. They see any employer as "exploiting" employees, rather than as creating jobs for people.
He's just a right-wing troll.
inexactly
I see a left wing troll attacking a right wing troll. Is this all that is left here?
with a business to run and family to raise...what an ass
Thanks for the positive comments "mostly" I really expected a bunch of troll beaters and good riddance. A lot to think about here. You are a hard bunch to ignore, and I dig intelligence, perseverance, and purpose.
Troll! no doubt...
You got it wrong dude. But good luck to you, sounds like you have a good plan!
"It makes me cringe to think about it. It is NOT what this country was built on. The men and women who fought and died to create a new country"
You mean the man who killed and take take the country from indigenous people?
Webmouth, you're needed. Really needed because people who know how to start and run businesses are going to be essential in the future, and this imposed left-right paradigm has helped ruin us.
And you are trolling.....so bye bye
You have my support. I'm in the same boat. 84hrs a week if I'm lucky more if I'm not.
Buy a firearm learn to use it and if you need it you will of done the world a favour.
webmouth, your words are well oriented, and there are a number of us that wonder how such a fine concept of protest got so well nudged off an effective direction.-
In that case, consider this forum and the unity on the web as the only real benefit you may know. The web does not advertize itself so whatever publicity was gained, sent lots of people here. Unfortunately there is no representation of strategy within the movement, so bad strategy could not even be pointed out in the barrage of issue based complaints having no solution.--
I agree with your post and know that the movement essentially has polarized a part of society that was more ready to compromise. It has ignored the existing social contract while demanding all the rights of it.------
We need an Article V convention. That can address all the issues with full authority.
Congress is very afraid of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_to_propose_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution "Congress acted preemptively to propose the amendments instead. At least four amendments (the Seventeenth, Twenty-First, Twenty-Second, and Twenty-Fifth Amendments) have been identified as being proposed by Congress at least partly in response to the threat of an Article V convention."
Our first right in our contract is Article V, the right to have congress convene delgates when 2/3 of the states have applied for an amendatory convention.
A power point by Lawrence Lessig that shows why congress is afraid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
If things didn't get so far out of line, there would have been no need for extremist solutions. I personally don't care how rich people are, as long as the social safety net remains intact, and there are decent jobs available, at a living wage, with benefits, for everybody who desires to work. All that is left over after that they can burn in Trump Tower for all I care.
I will personally defend you and your property/business if anyone tries to take it away from you. We are not looking to take anything away from those who work hard and honest. I will lay down my life to defend what you have worked so hard to achieve. However, if you screw over other people, cheat, lie, steal or bribe your way to success...then yeah, I will come after you and your wealth (not your family).
I was pretty shocked when OWS did not even say diddles in solidarity for another, Libya had a great victory today. The whole world spoke about it. OWS voice was noticeably missing.
oh please. we will build you a permaculture arcology and you and your family will move up and we wil lstop having a middle class and poor just because the rich like to have boot lickers. No murder, no violence, get real. this sounds like trolling. or maybe your sincere. hard to tell. stop spinning in your paranoia and wake up. until you wake up we will fight for you. when the continue to steal away your life bit by bit- you will come back to us sooner or later. if you are going to leave leave. otherwise man up and quit whining.
Come on man.
You're letting fear, anxiety and resentment (of those who might say that capitalism isn't always perfect) get in the way of the main objective.
Which is to fix the fucked up system! The system that WILL fuck a small business owner or entrepreneur over just as fast as any worker.
Small business does not benefit from the status quo! Your customers are the ones with upside down mortgages, ridiculous credit card interest rates, now unemployed thanks to Wall St's antics....I could go on and on.
Long story short, we're in this together. Don't let a small minority of anti-capitalists turn you off to this movement. This is a capitalist country and always will be, full stop. The problem is making it work for people who aren't named Koch.
Im just an average person pro occupy wall street and I, as many others, feel it is great for a person to rise to success through hard work and they should not be punished for reaching such goals, however major corporations and those rich who put their monies in foreign bank accounts to evade US taxes and those rich that participate in the demise of our economy through shady business should be held accountable and or taken down.
Also I do believe that if you are so blessed to have succeeded to the point of being the richest 1% of the nation it would not harm you to pay a slightly higher tax to help support the wonderful country that allowed you the libertly and freedoms to gain your success....just my humble opinion....we all have opinions and OWS supports all of us having a voice and policies and procedures being based upon the majority opinion which is very democratic and fair.
Don't worry, the society is with us. A lot of people hated MLK as well.
And yet you feel the need to post? You are not an evil rich capitalist for trying your hardest and working hard for your dreams. The evil rich capitalist is the one who invests their excess money in off shore accounts, and cries poverty while they increase rates to customers.
I believe that the OP is jumping to conclusions. Yes there are some anti-capitalists here and there's also some misguided Ron Paul supporters. But the majority of people here are anti-crony-capitalists and independents - meaning that if your small business or even large corporation makes it's money honestly, we don't have a problem with you. I personally praise small business capitalists and companies like Apple and Microsoft.
Hmmm...
I guess it is best to focus on only limited numbers of specific goals.
I read many posts on this forum. Solidarity of people in this kind of social movement is really important. But each person is in a different position in this society, and each person wants or believes a slightly different thing from one another.
So, the goal should be something that is simple and indubitably benefits everyone, something that no one say no to, despite of individual differences.
For instance, no tax loopholes.
Well, I know it is not me who should decide what is the goal of this movement, though. I will wait and see what the OccupyWallSt will become of.
Shame you met some bad people it looks like. I have some friends that make more then 20.000 per month and they justified it well to me. Well good luck with your company, hope you earn a lot and help out some people on the way.
You are right. Men and women died for this country. For our democracy. Where is our democracy now? It is in the hands of the 1%.
1% buys their representation. 99% are left with the scraps.
Our government is corrupted by the monied influence of the 1%. We need to get the money out of the political system.
So that we all have fair and equal representation in government. Then your business will thrive.
You should be able to grow your business in a country with a fair and democratic government.
We are all being had by the very very top 1% that so precious few are be able to identify. The 1% do not care about Left or Right. They dont divide themselves because they are collectivists. Cronies. It will take every last one of us from all political spectrums, from every tax bracket, from every walk of life to AGREE that yes, the Banks like JP Morgan, MorganChase, Goldman Sachs, The private Federal Reserve, and yes Bank of America with its 70 Trillion in back-stopped derivatives (Thats more than the entirety of Americas 14 Trillion in admitted debt, and thats just ONE bank)
C,mon folks its not that hard. Do some math. Its just addition.
only Left AND Right ...rich AND poor... TOGETHER equate to 99%
Anything else is fragmented and bottomline, the status quo
http://www.occupythefed.net/
The problem is that we've all become haters - everyone needs someone to hate; without it we would have no identity, as in "I'm not him."
well we have to get over ourselves then. When the economy actually does tank, and it will, and we HAVE admit to our selves this is another depression, we are going to look around bcz we are all going to need some help from friends and family and neighbors and strangers. It'd be fortunate if we care about one another enough to at least be kind to eachother. Its something everyone is capable of doing. We are in this together left and right and all the other groups that refuse to acknowledge one another. We will be Free Together or hang separately, so to speak.
Yea...
Left wingers don't, as a rule, hate capitalism. Sometimes they do. Often this is simply because the meaning of capitalism has been twisted to mean "glorification of greed". It has come to mean the notion that the goal of an economic system is simply making money, instead of organizing human activity and productivity in a just and efficient way, in a way that gives everyone the opportunity to make something, create a product, offer a service, or build a business, and be justly rewarded for it. It is not about legitimating destructive behavior because it is "profitable".
Talk about regulated free market and free enterprise, and very few will oppose you. Realize that our culture has allowed the word "capitalism" to be stolen by usurpers, by crooks and profiteers. No one, absolutely no one, thinks that those who make outstanding contributions to society should not be rewarded. But neither do they think that we should respect or admire or be thankful to those rich that won their money by manipulation, oppression and sterile exploitation. The hate for the rich simply comes from the impression that those means are becoming the dominant ones.
10 k- 20 k a month in 12 months is 120,000-240,000 a year. And I'm sure you wouldn't seek immoral tax breaks- like sending your money over-seas.
You would still be the 99%, the 1% makes over $500,000 a year or much, much better. Please re-consider: make wall st, main st again.
Don't mix up this kind of social movement and the things that happened to you or a certain number of individuals on a personal level.
Is it so hard to understand that this social movement is seeking "fairness" in our society, for instance, "no tax-loopholes"? It is not unreasonable or selfish demand, isn't it?
(But I have to admit, I do not know yet what the OccupyWallSt will become of. I want them to continue their protest, and I have a hope that they will bring about a good change to us all. But I want to wait and see..)
It is true the ideology runs the gamut, but the protest is focused on the people who earn more in a day than this guy earns in a year, and even his hoped for income would be a fraction of their annual wage/bonus/stock options....
people call this person a troll represent a segment of what is wrong with OWS, you will Not gain sympathizers by brandishing everyone that disagrees with you a troll, yes there are some trolls out thre but from what I read this person did not sound too "trollish".
What if OWS were to focus not on the top 1%, but the top .1%; would that make a difference? $350K puts you in the top 1%.
lol. Get some theraphy!
OH BS! Really go away. if your working so fucking hard boss where do u get the time to come in here and troll?
Don't fall for this psychological crap from any one percent goon. It's an obvious attempt to discredit our cause and break our will. Don't fall for it. Just follow the law and keep protesting no matter what the one percent goons say or do. Our message is vital. Below is my two cents:
We have been mislead by Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, and nearly every other public figure. Economic growth, job creation, and actual prosperity are not necessarily a package deal. In fact, the first two are horribly misunderstood. Economic growth/loss (GDP) is little more than a measure of wealth changing hands. A transfer of currency from one party to another. The rate at which it is traded. This was up until mid ’07′ however, has never been a measure of actual prosperity. Neither has job creation. The phrase itself has been thrown around so often, and in such a generic politicali manner, that it has come to mean nothing. Of course, we need to have certain things done for the benefit of society as a whole. We need farmers, builders, manufacturers, transporters, teachers, cops, firefighters, soldiers, mechanics, sanitationi workers, doctors, managers, and visionaries. Their work is vital. I’ll even go out on a limb and say that we need politicians, attorneys, bankers, investors, and entertainers. In order to keep them productive, we must provide reasonable incentives. We need to compensate each by a fair measure for their actual contributions to society. We need to provide a reasonable scale of income opportunity for every independent adult, every provider, and share responsibility for those who have a legitimate need for aid. In order to achieve and sustain this, we must also address the cost of living and the distribution of wealth. Here, we have failed miserably. The majority have already lost their home equity, their financial security, and their relative buying power. The middle class have actually lost much of their ability to make ends meet, re-pay loans, pay taxes, and support their own economy. The lower class have gone nearly bankrupt. In all, its a multi-trillion dollar loss taken over about 30 years. Millions are under the impression that we need to create more jobs simply to provide more opportunity. as if that would solve the problem. It won’t. Not by a longshot. Jobs don’t necessarily create wealth. In fact, they almost never do. For the mostpart, they only transfer wealth from one party to another. A gain here. A loss there. Appreciation in one community. Depreciation in another. In order to create net wealth, you must harvest a new resource or make more efficient use of one. Either way you must have a reliable and ethical system in place to distribute that newly created wealth in order to benefit society as a whole and prevent a lagging downside. The ‘free market’ just doesn’t cut it. Its a farce. Many of the jobs created are nothing but filler. The promises empty. Sure, unemployment reached an all-time low under Bush. GDP reached an all-time high. But those are both shallow and misleading indicators. In order to gauge actual prosperity, you must consider the economy in human terms. As of ’08′ the average American was working more hours than the previous generation with far less equity to show for it. Consumer debt, forclosure, and bankruptcy were also at all-time highs. As of ’08′, every major American city was riddled with depressed communities, neglected neighborhoods, failing infrastructures, lost revenue, and gang activity. All of this has coincided with massive economic growth and job creation. Meanwhile, the rich have been getting richer and richer and richer even after taxes. Our nation’s wealth has been concentrated. Again, this represents a multi-trillion dollar loss taken by the majority. Its an absolute deal breaker. Bottom line: With or without economic growth or job creation, you must have a system in place to prevent too much wealth from being concentrated at the top. Unfortunately, we don’t. Our economy has become nothing but a giant game of Monopoly. The richest one percent already own nearly 1/2 of all United States wealth. More than double their share before Reagan took office. Still, they want more. They absolutely will not stop. Now, our society as a whole is in serious jeapordy. Greed kills.
Okay, right wing troll.
Here's a tip: If you don't want to be so obviously a right-wing shill, don't come in here with your obvious lies peppered with right-wing talking points. Oh, you worked so hard, pulled yourself up by your boot-straps, right?
Here's your lame right-wing talking points. "Want to work" because the new flavor of the week for the GOP is that OWS people should just go get jobs, but they don't want to. "I am a capitalist" Yea, we know you guys love calling yourselves capitalists. "It is NOT what this country was built on" right wingers say this all the time, usually when trying to claim it's a christian nation or they're afraid because Fox News said something was socialism. "strip others of the prosperity" dog whistle for socialism?
Move on, troll. You're exemplifying the counter-productivity this movement is trying to expose. Good job.
Edit....I think you the fool. A self employed person who works their ass off and fails...isn't even entitlted to Unemployment. Their is NO safety net for someone who tries it on their own. I might be leaving this movement also as it appears your hatred for the right means this movement is only for leftists.
I've always wanted to see the Socratic method in action. Thank you.
"the streets will flow red with the blood of the non-believers"--Cornholio