Forum Post: Listen UP: How we are being censored by SOCKPUPPETS
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 17, 2011, 2:25 a.m. EST by looselyhuman
(3117)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Here's one thread full of stuff they don't want anyone to see (from http://occupywallst.org/forum/liberalism-is-not-socialism/ ) . They are using sockpuppets and other fraudulent methods to vote down comments they disagree with. The moderators seem to be powerless to stop it. Anyway, for the record:
sockpuppet: Actually your definitions come up short. You didn't tell us specifically what you as "Liberal/Progressivel" stand for.
looselyhuman: I stand for the moral mandate of government to the welfare of the people, which includes addressing the issues of crushing inequality, and the regulation of the market in a manner that benefits the common good, not just enriches the few.
sockpuppet: Thank you for your reply. Where in the Constitution is this "moral mandate"? Where does the Constitution mention Govt. must address social and economic "inequality? Also where do you find the part that states the Govt. must regulate the market? Do you believe in "social justice"?
looselyhuman: I think the constitution is a framework that offers for a system of self-governance. Government is authorized to promote the general welfare and the nature of that activity is left to the voters. I am sure we disagree that our republic is a form of democracy, and that the constitution is a living document, so there's not much else to say.
I can only point out that during the era when the policies I support were dominant, the people were free, prosperous, and relatively equal. We had a stable and just society. Things have changed, and I see little do do with the constitution in what has happened since Reagan's neoliberal policies put us on the path to decline.
sockuppet: What "era" are you talking about? Please,in years.
looselyhuman: The 40s-late 60s (I see the 70s as a transitional period). The "liberal consensus" years. Recommend the wiki article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States ). Also this is repetitive so maybe review: http://occupywallst.org/forum/liberalism-is-not-socialism/#comment-368382
sockpuppet: You are correct that Liberal does not mean Socialist. Unfortunately for you the people that highjacked the term are Socialists so it does not matter what the definition is. If you identify with them you are a socialist regardless of what the term means.
looselyhuman: I think that's the propagandist's view. Liberals were always about mixed economies. Look at the greatest period of prosperity and relative equality in our history, when the middle class became dominant. It was the 1940s-70s era known as the "liberal consensus." Compared to today's neoliberal climate of privatization, deregulation, free trade, and otherwise unfettered capitalism, spiced up with a healthy dose of propaganda, the liberal worldview has become synonymous with socialism. It was not always so.
Read the wiki piece. Everyone from FDR to Ike to Kennedy to Nixon were part of the liberal consensus, but by today's definition they are all statists/socialists. We haven't changed, the narrative has.
Before you go into debt and all the other indicators of big government, consider that revenue as a percent of GDP is the lowest in 60 years. Also review this cogent anaylsis of tax policy by a fellow OWSer: http://www.brianrogel.com/the-100-percent-solution-for-the-99-percent
sockpuppet: One of the few intelligent responses I've had on here. I think we are saying the same thing but I still want to know who you identify with. BTW thx for the link. I will review it directly.
looselyhuman: Thank you.
Who I identify with... I voted for Obama, because I bought into his rhetoric. His policies have been a bust. The presidents I think most highly of, especially against the current background, are Lincoln, Teddy and FDR, as well as Kennedy. Looking around the world, I find the systems in places like Germany, Sweden and Canada to be closest to my ideal. These parliamentary social democracies more closely reflect the liberal policies of our 40s-70s than we do today.
You might read about the Marshall Plan in Europe, which was really a continuation of the New Deal, and, especially in Germany, shows how succesful these policies can be over the long haul.
In terms of current American politicians/economists/etc, I identify with people like Elizabeth Warren, Robert Reich, Bernie Sanders, Paul Krugman, and others.
sockpuppet: Well after reviewing your statements and info. I'm still of the same opinion,Liberalism is just another form of Socialism/Communism. ...
Does everyone know how to expand a collapsed comment and vote it up? Figure it out please. Help your beleaguered fellow OWSers.
I was one of the people who suggested the invisible posts after a certain number of negs but I can see it isn't working.
Too bad.
Yeah it's gone south big time.
We need to let jart know - maybe she'll consider removing that.
I think now they've figured it out, they can still force posts to the bottom of the page. I think some auditing of clusters of activity to determine which accounts are sockpuppets is needed. If I had access to the database I could probably do it... Then ban those IPs. Something like that...
I was thinking they might be using bots too.
I've seen some posts accumulate 8 or ten + or - in what seemd like less than a minute.
Yeah, they must be. Bots associated with seperate accounts. IP banning would still work unless they were using a botnet. Maybe would need some code to auto ban any IP that tries to login with a known sockpuppet handle...
Hell I could give her a list of known accounts right now.
Here's another thread ruined by sockpuppets voting constructive comments down:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/jobs-are-becoming-obsolete-due-to-advances-in-tech/#comment-373685
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it is possible that the opinion of OWS protesters, is only like 2% of what everyone else thinks.......this is what democracy looks like ya'll......the mob rules.....you wanted it, and now that you have it......you think it's incorrect, but it isn't.....the majority of Americans are voicing their opinions here.......work with it......because most of them are here because they don't like a tyrannical government either........
you need to consider that these are everyday average status quo americans with everyday average opinions......they are not bots....they are people...no one is trying to flood the board with "sockpuppet" spam....these are actually people........and we need to listen to what they have to say....their voices count.......alot of us have kids to keep warm and feed and take to school, we dont have time for camping downtown........I'm all for the movement....but my #1 propority...is feeding my kids and making sure they have a safe place to sleep that's warm.......we need everyones support....not just those that agree with marxism......
it's not a good idea......I was banned from the chat and called a sockpuppet for who knows why........because I disagree with some things?.....I'm all about revolution and holding the douches accountable and taking the world back from Tyranny........but.......you need to consider that these "sockpuppets" are regular everyday americans with different views, I mean i can understand if their total ignorant jerk offs.......but......differences of opinion is healthy for the movement.......we need many different perspectives to think about........plus.......as OWS continues to gain momentum......we need the support of the "sockpuppets".......enough already with the whole "doing there masters bidding" thing...........people are waking up and they need information, not to be spat on because they dont know wtf this is all about......
I don't think you understand. Sockpuppet means one user (or a robot) controlling multiple accounts and using them in tandem to manipulate voting.
Ok...I thought the term sockpuppet was being used to describe someone that has the opinion of their "masters"....that mankind should be "cleansed" of all the dirty hippies....sheeple who have yet to wake up.......
I was wondering what was going on. It did take them a long time to figure it out, though. It's troll city on here.
I saw that post and voted the genuine debaters up and the sock puppets down... I normally dont vote on posts but the numbers seemed way off what they normally are... this explains it.
Exactly. Thank you. We need more people to take responsibility like this.
I'm so freaking sick of these goons. It's bad enough we have run of the mill trolls and hate-filled violent extremists and deep psyops freaks like Thrasymaque. But SOCKPUPPETS SUCK!
"deep psyops freaks like Thrasymaque"
Yeah, that guy is good, and more dangerous than most. I have to admit, I defended him a couple times, as he seemed a genuine person who's opposition was thoughtful and not part of a disinformation campaign and calling genuine folks trolls for having differing opinions looks as bad for us as anything the trolls pull. But his recent post asking if OWS is planning for violence when I know he is well aware this isn't true had me review every link I'd saved to review a larger pattern of his discourse, and I must agree he has a definite agenda to infiltrate and misinform, but takes much more care to appear innocuous and maintain credibility -- I don't know whose payroll he's on, but he's definitely slicker than the normal trolls here.
Agreed 100%. You need to put what you just said in a top-level post. I'll try to help you keep it alive. People need to know.
Good suggestion! I will be, the only reason I'm not doing it this second is it's past midnight and when I call him out I want to be available to defend my stance, and I'm about to go to bed. Look for me tomorrow or the following afternoon at the latest though, since I'm twice as pissed for having been duped. I'm not usually easy to fool. Rest assured, I will be hounding him where ever I see him on here, and be looking for his new accounts as his credibility is fully expended under his current name.
I am respectful of reasonable voices of opposition and that is what he takes advantage of to fly below the radar, until you stumble on enough of his input to see the pattern. I just wish that there were a way to look at all the posts of an individual so then when these patterns are identified, it'd be easier to provide evidence by linking to their strategic fluctuations in stance.
For now, good night all and keep up the good fight till I see you next :)
Did one here: Feel free to pile on. :)
Good night!
I added my 2 cents, thanks for getting it done :)
Pleasure - thank you back!
The last thread about the posters was taken right from Glenn Beck's website.
Yeah, that was the one that tipped me off. It raised enough of a red flag for me to re-assess his "just a thoughtful guy who disagrees" pose, and see him as among the more dangerous propagandists on here.
looselyhuman 2 points 9 minutes ago
Hi Thrasymaque.
Glaucon 1 points 5 minutes ago
Hi, how are you? Any comments for my post? I'd love to hear arguments by anarchists. Discussion is important.
looselyhuman 2 points 3 minutes ago
Just give my best to Glenn Beck and let him know I think anarchist obsession is slightly more healthy than his previous Nazi fetish. It's good progress. Keep playing with that lithium dosage...
Glaucon 1 points 1 minute ago
I was hoping for more constructive arguments. I took some time to carefully write this post and elucidate a problematic dilemma of anarchist. If you have any anarchist friends who would like to discuss this dilemma, please direct them to this thread. I love a good debate with strong arguments. See you later, take care.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-anarchic-dilemma-do-anarchies-self-destruct/
Hey loosely, I've got a question. Bear with me because I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to participating on web forums, in fact this is the first. What exactly is the purpose of the 'like' 'dislike' option? I know what it's used for but what good does it actually do? It seems to me to do more harm than good. If someone doesn't like your opinion, no matter how valid it may be, they can vote it down. Same thing if for some reason they take a dislike to you personally. That's one thing that ruined Craigslist, giving faceless people the power to control your participation. There are a lot of power-tripping mofos in cyberspace. On an open forum, doesn't it make more sense to give every comment equal weight, assuming they're on-topic?
Hey gno. I think it does make sense to have some sort of "highlight" capability, where comments are made prominent that are reflective of our views (the fact that the voting here doesn't seem to reflect our views is another problem). I think the idea that the flip-side, unpopular views, should be censored is where we run into real trouble though. I've seen ideas to only allow "like" and not "dislike" and I think that's a good idea...
Yep Thrasymaque is hardcore evil.
By the way I think Glaucon is Thrasymaque: http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-anarchic-dilemma-do-anarchies-self-destruct/
Thanks for the tip, noting that name now too...
Double yup,
:o(
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Yup...
we need to stick together.
We need a website with a different format, active moderators and categorization. Plus sticking together...
I would still not want to abandon this site to the trolls. People come here to find out about the movement. Which SUCKS.
Key point. People do come to this site to find out about the movement. Therefore, despite all the hardships of posting and commenting here as a genuine person, I'm sticking with it. I'm not technical person. I think I generally understand what you're referring to here. Any tips you can provide in lay person's terms would be greatly appreciated. Maybe you should create a post that gives the "top 5 things a genuine supporter of the movement can do to help make sure the dialogue on here is genuine and not affected by trolls or paid disinformation folks". There have to be ways to keep such a post high on the forum -- by writing it in nontechnical language and getting a genuine dialogue going there.
Hey buddy. I will think about that post. Might be a good idea - but will definitely be troll bait.
Let's network via PM to keep quality control up.
It's possible to redirect newcomers automatically or by link, just a thought. The format of the forum could be improved but I am not sure if the program allows for that on this one...
Moderation wouldn't necessarily be good or bad, it would depend on the moderators chosen and whether they could remain impartial and not let their own beliefs color their decisions and only consider how those decisions affect the forum for the benefit of those who wish to enter into honest debate and dialogue,
Key point below. People do come to this site www.pccupywallst.org to find out about the movement. Therefore, despite all the hardships of posting and commenting here as a genuine person, I'm sticking with it. don't want to abandoned this site to the trolls. I'm not technical person. I think I generally understand what you're referring to here. Any tips you can provide in lay person's terms would be greatly appreciated. Maybe you should create a post that gives the "top 5 things a genuine supporter of the movement can do to help make sure the dialogue on here is genuine and not affected by trolls or paid disinformation folks". There have to be ways to keep such a post high on the forum -- by writing it in nontechnical language and getting a genuine dialogue going there.
an easy fix would be turn off the negative vote closing of posts
How?
the admin has to do that - we need to let her know
We can email or private message "jart"
Censorship going on in many places on the next. I had 15 posts eliminated today on my trading forum for re-posting events of early 2007. They trying to eliminate the evidence. plz read regarding the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-not-that-wall-street-didnt-know-they-are-just-/
"Government is authorized to promote the general welfare"
If you read further down the constitution, you will find that government is also authorized to PROVIDE for the general welfare.
Liberalism is great because it takes a step in the right direction towards a society that works well for everyone.
But only democratic socialism goes all the way and actually creates a society that does in fact work well for everyone.
The means of production should be democratically owned and controlled for the benefit of everyone. Only then will you have a system that provides for the general welfare of all, like the constitution mandates.
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OWS was a perfect example of human nature.
You tried to accomplish something great. But in all the bureaucracy and attempts to censor counter points. OWS ended up as a human experiment to show that, regardless of the situation, circumstance or political position, human nature never changes and all things remain the same.
Listen, no one is trying to censor counterpoints. Except maybe the other side coming here trying to drown out OUR voices with lewd, insulting, racist, sexist, lying, slanderous posting and by voting our posts into negative points oblivion which is EXACTLY what this thread is about.
There is out and out trolling going on here. If you don't realize what trolling is, google it.
What "other side?" Racism, insulting, sexism, lying... Those are the same things that our current government puts up with every day. And also get accused of. What makes you any different? The more you grow, the more you become that in which you fight against. What's your solution to the high unemployment levels? Stand in front of someones work place so they can't go to work either. You can't even say Ron Lawl on here without censorship because of liberal bias. The whole movement is split into two obvious sides; the conservatives and the liberals. You are an exact reflection of the current political system, except you sit outside rather than inside.