Forum Post: How do you envision Occupy succeeding?
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 4, 2011, 4:22 p.m. EST by yoss33
(269)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
... and what would you consider a victory?
by paradigm shift evolutionary revolution, or, probably not at all. Systemically the legal apparatus would be an article 5 convention and a new political party. Neither alone would be sufficient and without the paradigm shift its unlikely we could elect anybody in under a few terms as the elections are rigged assorted ways. So it all hinges on the paradigm shift which in turn hinges on getting our signal to noise ratio up through the stratosphere, which in turn really hinges on using the wiki.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/WorkShops_in_SB_on_Sunday
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
I agree that a more fundamental change so to speak is an integral, even necessary element. I'd liken to an old weather beaten leaky ship that is sinking, and Occupy is the sleek new model, perfectly adapted for the particular stormy seas of a situation we find ourselves in. People need to jump ship and swim over to the one that can sail onwards to safer waters. Perhaps a big part of the challenge is getting people to step outside of their comfort zone and look outside their windows to see their trusty ship is in fact sinking.
Occupy to me is part of this shift, and is a kind of manifestation of it; the way it began and caught on, how it is an amorphous self styled representative of the '99%' movement. It addresses and targets all kinds of different yet interelated problems, it's multifaceted nature. Me with the big words, but yeah. I'm not sure i want to see an Occupy political party either, i do remain open minded to a certain degree, but i'm not sure whether that is the most truly effective way to go.
i am 1000 percent certain that an occupy part is the way to go.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
that sounds like way too much certainty for me at this point, but i will check out the link and give it consideration.
thank you. http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Article_5_Convention
I would consider the development of a just, loving and peaceful society without war, where the US abandoned its military bases around the world, where the a Green environmental approach was public policy, where corporations no longer existed and the resources of the world were democratically organized for everyone, where police forces were no longer necessary. That would be a victory. It may take centuries. I'm in for the long haul.
How do you envision succeeding in your relationships? Is success a process or is it an end? Can you imagine yourself working for a long time (for as long as you expect the relationship to last) to understand your partner’s needs, abilities, ambitions, challenges, and limitations, as well as your own, and negotiating a cooperation that will serve both? Would not each day that progress is made toward this mutual benefit be considered a victory? OWS is necessary because we have in the past neglected our responsibilities to our partners - the many strangers who cohabit this country and this planet.
yes, well said. It is a process for sure. Maybe 'success' in this regard is a poor choice of words. Perhaps it has more to do with changing our minds, perspective, about what is important. Our relationships, as you say, how do we come to some common ground, understanding and improvement towards health on individual and collective levels, including with that planetary health as well. Now that i think of it, you very much captured how i would define a 'success' and we are living it. It is fascinating to me to watch the ebb and flow of Occupy, the amazing reactions to it from the media, almost right out of some ingenius fictional political satire... but actually happening! Some of these bills for instance... wow. Occupy is a beautiful though thing i find, in many ways. Just the energy and the idea of it is a 'success' imo and the more Occupy and getting to the heart of what do we mean and where are we coming from, that unfolding is a kind of miraculous and inspiring series of moments and events to me. I think an important aspect or characteristic at least how i see it, is that it is inclusive.
I don't. They will be put in FEMA camps soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_gHflmedAQ
a dancing monkey for your troubles.
I would consider the establishment of a genuinely democratic, peaceful, just, ecologically sound and loving society a victory. Success to me would be a GA in every neigborhood, every nursing home, every military barracks, every drug rehabilitation center, every school and university, every prison and jail and every work place.
I see victory the day when the Occupy movement matures and understands how people who have been kicked out of society long term are not Bums but people who were just thwarted before the 2008 housing crash. When people have genuine sympathy for one another and are willing to give other people who are not as polished a break and a leg up.Examples would be like the long term homeless population and those who have been long since kicked out of the work place due to capitalists use of ARTIFICIAL SELECTION!! And through the power of the people our country is healed from it's many mortal wounds. Our entire infrastructure is restored to full function including but not confined to the Civil Defense. When National Security means to protect and defend the people and the land from those who are actively trying to destroy it Even if that means Capitalists. When a big government is in place that is strong enough not to be corrupted and has the ability to defend the PEOPLE!
Letting women lead for a change, with equal pay, and equal property rights in real practice. There is a kind of Jim Crow law against women now, influenced by the Bible. If it were lifted, a great portion of these corruptions would stop. A Wal-mart manager was quoted as saying men get promotions because they are the breadwinners biblically. This crap has GOT to stop. Is it no surprise that a WOMAN blew the whistle on Enron? When you get any narrow group, such as older white Christian males, leading a country or a business, it will greatly suffer from its imbalance. USA has.
Women have been the most oppressed group in history, bar none, so i agree with you. I personally love women in general, and would love to see them on top more.. sorry. But seriously though, they do need to be given more overall respect and greater leadership roles.
Woman base their decisions on emotion and men with logic. Emotional responses get us nowhere. Equality has never existed in any square inch of the world from the beginning and never will. To think it can someday is so far out of reality that it just makes those who fight for it more insane than they already are.
To think equality can exist is insane? What a depressing attitude that is.
I think women, or even better, the feminine quality in all leaders is exactly what is missing in the world. Everyone has both masculine and feminine qualities. To be completely feminine would be too much of a pussy forgive the language and that is no good. But look at what the feminine aspect, or women bring to the table. They are empathetic, nurturing, compassionate, etc. etc. You speak of emotions as if it is a dirty word. There is a term in psychology called emotional intelligence. I feel like if used in harmony with logic, that is the best policy. Logic without emotion is unhealthy, even from an individual standpoint. Having an overly dominant masculine or feminine trait is problematic.
So many leaders today are involved in pissing contests, and while competition and strength is good, i think we need to move beyond the chest pounding and realize it's not about who has the fastest car or the biggest bomb, that shit is shallow not to mention a mindset that is fucking up the planet and the vast majority of people living on it.
This should be top comment for the day!
Thanks so much for your reply. I couldn't have said it better. Men are victims in this culture too. They cannot show their natural "feminine" sides in this political climate, and it leads to irrational political decisions.
Your very welcome. Thank you for bringing up a good point, actually a crucial point in my opinion.
Yeah I can see how well it is already working. Im not depressed. Maybe its time to get back on your Prozac.
You got problems besides women, that's for sure!
I have no problems because Im one of the 1% :-)
by global shift in consciousness, getting rid of the monetary system and sharing the planet's resources according to needs. i see a resource-based economy where wars don't exist, only fellowship, agape.
Sounds good I think a shift in consciousness on a greater collective level is part of it, imo for sure. How do you see the monetary system being phased out? Gradually in various stages, or in one fell swoop?
i'm a proponent of the "resource-based economy" and encourage everyone to watch the "venus project" and "zeitgeist" films, and then sign the "venus project petition".
chalk up another vote for 'resource based economy'. I like the idea in principle, how would you implement such a change in the economy from the monetary system to resource based? One idea could be to initiate direct product/service trading organizations and events.
I envision it's 'success' as having by contrast much to do with the current power structure's continuing and overwhelming 'failure'. People will be running around with no civil or human rights left and no money or food, screaming 'Game over man! game over!' wondering wtf they are suppose to do now, and lo and behold, there is Occupy, actively working to change the system one mind at a time by challenging the consensus of what 'democracy', or freedom and equality in fact means.
That is one very generalized scenario, and by no means the only one or a very complete picture. I also think that an unwavering focus on truth and justice will go far to helping the cause. 'You can not evict an idea who's time has come' i like it. You also cannot evict the truth from reality for too long, and the reality is, those motherfuckers are greedy as hell and they will have what's coming to them one way or another. And if anyone still thinks there is any dispute about that, (their greed that is screwing over the rest of the world) then you are in severe denial, and a part of the problem as well.
And also i think that despite all that, Occupy needs to emphasize unity, and continue to kick the peace and love and remain welcoming to everyone who is on the fence or unsure of what to think or do, because really, we're all human and i think at heart we all want and need the same things. Food clothing and shelter for a start, but also a sense of purpose, community, that we are important and valued members of such a community. So the great thing about Occupy is that is gives this sense of meaning, purpose, direction to everyone who wishes to participate, and that is a beautiful thing.
Humans are not capable sticking together very long in groups like OWS. To many people and Bankers against them. The same for the Tea Party. Its a pipe dream. Its not realistic. The 60's proved the peace love thing ends miserably bad. The trillionaires just won't tolerate it and if they control the worlds money they ultimately control the people. Thats just the way it is and always has been. To believe otherwise is complete insanity.
i must respectfully disagree. When you say 'In groups like OWS..' what other groups are you talking about? There has never been a group i would argue that has formed so fast that has transcended city, country continental boundaries like Occupy. Find me any in history comparable.
As for the 60's, the hippies had no real plan, they just were 'against' the Vietnam war and had vague ideas of being rebellious. Gandhi on the other hand proved the "peace love" thing does work. He liberated what is now (and may have been at the time) the second largest country in the world from British rule from doing what Occupy is doing now, so your argument is not consistent, nor valid.
a never ending movement of the people!
right to the point. Thanks for your input, and feel free to elaborate on what such a continuous movement would change, though i guess to some degree there have been examples already.
I find this and all the forums a bit aloof these days...so I post very briefly I do apologize.
I would like to try to spin the issues a bit for you...currently in the world we attack issues that arise as they arise. Missing the point that these issues have originated long before any current situation because we (the people, majority anyway) have not been doing our jobs for millineia(s) now. As we see the issue as something to be fixed we are continually being through into this imperial/patriarchal cycle or system.
In short, we have a long way to go and even the majority of activism may be headed in the wrong direction...
The closest thing I know happening politically that I can endorse is Bolivia Set to Pass Historic 'Law of Mother Earth' Which Will Grant Nature Equal Rights to Humans www.pvpulse.com
where the intension is set and seemingly in a new type of direction where instead of taking the big man down we bagin to promote the world up, if that makes sense.
and I quote "The law redefines natural resources as blessings and confers the same rights to nature as to human beings, including: the right to life and to exist; the right to continue vital cycles and processes free from human alteration; the right to pure water and clean air; the right to balance; the right not to be polluted; and the right to not have cellular structure modified or genetically altered. Perhaps the most controversial point is the right "to not be affected by mega-infrastructure and development projects that affect the balance of ecosystems and the local inhabitant communities"
You bring up a very good point, in that focus should be about what we want at least as much as what we don't want. That is why i support the peaceful approach, and i like the word 'occupy' rather than 'protest'. Violence may be used against us, but to define the space and tone of what Occupy means is to remain peaceful in the face of violence and symbolically but also literally establish the attitude, philosophy, even reality of the new paradigm we wish to implement.
Just like a drug addict will not last long simply by quitting, there must be something new to replace the former habitual patterns or else we are doomed to repeat them. I would go so far as to say that by Occupy i, personally speaking, see what is doing the Occupying as a new holistic mentality or energy if you will, and everyone moved by it is the vehicle or vessel through which it operates, though it is a more closer representation of what being human is all about. How i see it in a sense anyways.
I agree that nature deserves rights, so i like that quote. We are animals ourselves, and a part of nature, just like my dogs or the forest beyond my back yard is. Occupy is so great because it kind of sees the bigger picture and all the different elements as interrelated & connected; human rights, environmental concerns, economic inequality and the need to hold corporations, banks and governments accountable is all being addressed by this movement and that is the beautiful thing about it.
viva la Occupy!
By evolution. It needs to become more creative:
http://thegreatrecession.info/blog/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-now-unoccupied-but-stronger/
Some efforts like the videos people have made, the Occupy Foreclosed Homes protests, etc., are moving in that direction.
If, on the other hand, it does things like shut down all ports in the Northwest, it will start to be seen by MANY in the 99% as a moral hazard, willing to rampantly hurt society at large in order to accomplish its goals.
--Knave Dave http://thegreatrecession.info/blog/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-now-unoccupied-but-stronger/
It will only succeed if this movement stops lieing about not having any leaders and gets some new ones. This movement needs to lose the anarchy, and the direct democracy absurdity. It is complete and total nonsense. Also, need to lose those Serbian revolution fighters that are behind the scenes as well.
We need real leaders and an effective organizational structure to drive this movement towards ending government corruption through campaign finance reform.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy-is-what-we-need/
We already have!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/weve-built-it-they-will-come/
We go after the worst of the worst!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
The Revolution starts here!
I figured your answer might have something to do with Toshiba.
You can't fault me for consistency. But, after Toshiba, we can go after these guys:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/enterprise-rent-a-car-murders-children/
The Revolution starts here!
A leader, Paul Krugman maybe? DO you know how many people want to be the leader of the movement?
I would count an end to finance capital and corporate power, if not capitalism as a success.
I would like to point you towards others that would love a say in this matter... http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-here-to-listen-what-is-it-you-want-to-be-heard/
MY answer is really very simple.
World peace.
It already is succeeding. The occupy movement has made it possible for people to engage in dialogues that would have never otherwise taken place. I don't see the occupy movement itself changing anything politically but it does provide solid ground from which those organizations which will make a positive difference can grow.
It has certainly put the conversation on the table and out in the open. I think the movement itself has already changed so much, and tbh, if change can be had, what difference does it matter whether we give credit to Occupy or whatever so long as some real, meaningful, positive change happens. I just think that Occupy is so well suited to be such a vehicle. Look how easy it is for such a wide variety of different good organizations, causes to jump on board. The more the better i say.
It's why we need a one-world democratic people's government, preferably with a global economy that would put the profits of industry in the peoples' pockets. A global work-stoppage, arranged over the internet, could initiate such a reality. Well, anything is possible.
Ooooh a global work stoppage.That is an interesting idea.
I think it's 'an idea whose time has come'.
To an extent, Occupy has been quite successful. Today is the march for Food Justice. This is something that we can take back. This is not something that we have to "create" out of thin air. Strength in numbers. We have demonstrable evidence of the harm to humans and the environment. Should people be willing to look a little more deeply they will find that we have people in other countries that are being murdered to remove them from the land. That land has/is/will be sold to corporations to grow food that the people still living there cannot afford to buy.
Secondly, the media is no longer framing the questions and, therefore, the answers. I think that they are realizing that they are no longer controlling the discussions. There has been such manipulation to keep information out of the hands of the public that they are making desperate attempts to act as if they are on top of it with "special in depth expose" shows.
yes, it is an absurd thing at times what is happening with much the media. I consider that Occupy has been much more of a success than most realize or care to acknowledge in any case.
And i completely agree with you about people needing to be willing to look a little deeper into what is going on. I think part of this is like a kind of denial in many. They can pffft or mock or just ignore it and hope it goes away, but the problems aren't going to fix themselves if those and that which were responsible for creating the problems (and im including the sometimes docile and apathetic public, of which i am a part in that equation as well) are not addressed, so yeah in that sense, getting the attention of these people i would say in my opinion is a key component, and one that is btw being addressed beautifully in many different ways, from what i can tell.
I envision repelican party members fleeing the halls of Congress, their coat tails flapping in the breeze - fleeing in abject terror, though no one chases close behind, no one calls their name . . .
I envision K street shuttered and in decline, empty windowless sockets peering out over an empty street . . .
I had a dream last night - while I was sleeping of course - the ground shook, and in the small lake before me the land rose up in small islands of tufted grass. A small black line ran through the earth, barely a ripple, about the width of a hand both high and wide, with a dip running the center of its entire course.
A seismograph mounted on the wall indicated that far, far off to the west, over a thousand miles away, the earth heaved in cataclysm.
This nation heaves in cataclysm.
We already have success.
There is much to be done to claim what is ours.
Yes, i feel like there certainly is some 'upheaval' going on. I wonder if that indication to the west suggests actual eathquakes or the 'shake-up' effect the west coast will have through Occupy. Great work Portland, btw.
I agree there is much to be done also. When you say repelican, do you mean to say republican? Forgive my ignorance, i'm just not familiar with the term.
Abraham Lincoln was a Republican.
Jim Jeffords was a Republican.
No, there has been no typographical error.
Ok, then what is a repelican? What do you mean by that? I am Canadian, and maybe i'm coming across as a complete moron, but as i;ve said, im not familiar with the term repelican.
It is a term of approbation, a proof, derogatory in nature, intended to shame and to ridicule those who run for high office upon a platform of lies before the whole world and have not the decency to blush bright crimson.
they are reprehensible.
they are repulsive.
they are repellent.
they are repelicans . . . .
Alright, i thought i was on the right track. Just wasn't sure if it was some obscure political reference to some group i was not aware of. Makes sense.
I would have everyone know that name . . .
Personally, I call our two parties the Repugnants and the Demagogues.
has this thread been deleted? Why isnt it showing up... -edit- oop sorry nevermind. It did say also that i would have to wait 2 hours to post, yet here i am posting.. confusing. What is going on here..
Thanks everyone for your input.
that alert comes up after you post an Original Post, or OP, or Forum Post.
this here, is a comment. At least, that is how I think of it. It has a different set of time constraints.
Oh yeah! i was trying to start a thread about Lou Reed expressing his support and how much i love him for it as he is one of the musicians in pretty consistent rotation in my music listening habits, so that solves that mystery. My paranoid mind was beginning to look around suspiciously a little bit there lol.
yeah, I had the power go out last night while I was posting -
it was just the wind.
not that I give a shit.
I'll either post, or do something else.
The repealing of the Federal Reserve Charter would make the biggest impact on all Americans lives. Federal Reserve Notes have taken the our purchasing power away. We lose about 5% of what we produce each year because we use those debt instruments.
They were almost able to build a structure in DC.
Through Direct Democracy:
Approaching a Metapolitical Discourse:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/cybersteading-occupations-a-strategy-proposal/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/approaching-a-metapolitical-discourse/
http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse
A People's Social Network:
http://metapolitik.org/welcome
Anarchist's Facebook:
http://metapolitik.org/blogs/admin/about
Inoculating Against Right Wing Memes:
http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse#11
Ochlocracy vs. Epimorphic Personal Ontologies:
http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse#20
Banksters burned at the stake. Banksters hanged. Banks foreclosed Banksters in fear.
;-)
You will be the first to know when it has been done. FBI
Occupy will succeed if AN"YTHING that is outside the usual apathy and two party system spawsn from it.
I can speak personally from Tampa that this is happening, so as far as I can say, OT is a success.
Right on. I think it's good to acknowledge the fact that positive change is happening, however unreported or unnoticed it is at times. I feel like a lot of it has to do with staying the course, keeping at it, and getting as many involved or at least into the conversation as possible. I think the basic integrity of Occupy will in time win hearts and minds of people who give it an honest look. My impression anyway.
Victory = at minimum, a just and equitable distribution of wealth and political power to ALL (human) persons of voting age.
That's a good start for sure. Do you think it is possible to instigate real change in this regard with the system we have in place? A matter of changing laws, holding people responsible for this mess accountable? Is it more people Occupy needs? How do we get to that point most efficiently?
we need a system of participatory democracy and economy that is not rooted in the failed ideologies of the pre-21st century world.
I favor Participism, myself. Wiki it.
Please define two terms:
Distribution
Wealth
This is what seems to be real problem with these posts. Sounds great as long as it distributed to ME and the wealth beongs to someone ELSE.
Is this what you really mean??
wealth = the control of capital/goods/and currency
distribution = allotment, disbursement, arrangement within society.
And your desired ratios are?
And the next logical questions. Distribution:
By whom
To whom
For what reason
By the people. To the people. For the people.
Take my case for example. I have worked since 1965, have set aside for my retirement and now draw SS ($700 mo) Say my net worth today is $100,000 including our home.
How does this fit into your plan to distribute wealth, when do you plan to do it, and how much will be left for my wife and me?
You're nowhere near the 1% so likely you'd be left alone. But in any case you'd have a direct voice, and a true vote, in the distribution. Something you do not have now.
Would I be left alone the next go round if say we got down to the need to redistribute the wealth of those holding $100,000 in any type of wealth??
Assuming that much of the wealth of the 1% is not actually cash but only paper holdings, when do you anticipate that you would be coming after my $100,000 of real wealth. I have to be a target in your scheme somewhere.
How deep does it go? Will there be a 100th monkey type of effect happening at all do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://blog.thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
very nice. thanks for the links. I've seen the last 3 but good to network them around anyways. will look at the youtube ones.
By making prudent life choices... after all, it is "your" life.
[Removed]
Wake the people up!
Expose the Fed.
Expose that 9/11 was an inside job.
Expose the connections between the illicit drug trade, the major banks and the highest offices of Government.
Expose the Main Stream Medias failure to expose the above.
Anything subsequent would be too controversial for most people here to handle.
They already have been exposed. Everybody knows. The trillionairs could care less. They have the money and power. There really is nothing we can do about it. Best to just live your lives and support you families and do the best you can.
Their power is illusion. The trillionaire mob's power is founded on perception. If they are exposed, they will melt away like the Wicked Witch of the West. No, everybody does NOT know.
I don't.
It has already ended, it is finished. It's dead.
You can't sell Orwellianism to TV nation. You have to have a model, a dream, an example ... say look here look at how these people live let's do this.
The only message from OWS is let's steal money from X, where X in reality doesn't exist.
You cannot succeed if your mission is based on delusion.
Yes, if your mission was only getting your 15 minutes on youtube, then yes you have won, if your mission was to make USA a good place to live and shutdown the police state you have failed.
Now the police state is bigger and stronger, and maybe this was the goal all along.
It is succeeding as we speak. The OWS-Obamavilles are being dismantled, and the illegal squatters are being carted off to jail where they can get the mental health treatment they so desperately need.