Forum Post: Hey!!! Any 1960's Revolutionaries Have Wisdom to Share? WE NEED YOUR HELP!!!!!
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 31, 2011, 10:27 a.m. EST by Banjarama
(242)
from Little Elm, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Whenever I see post from you guys, I feel like I get some needed insight and perspective.
I'm one of those "1960's Revolutionaries." I started in Left politics in 1960. As to wisdom, I don't pretend to it. I do have some experience though. I am enthused by OWS beyond words. And I have several points to make.
(1) OWS needs to reach out to the labor movement, the unions, to supply social heft needed to begin change in this country. The unions are the largest organized expression of the 99%. (Yes, I know all about union corruption, sell-outs, bureaucracy, etc. I've been a member of half a dozen unions.) The current situation in Oakland, where the longshore workers are taking the lead towards a general strike, shows the way.
(2) Demands are necessary. Yes, they can and will be divisive. That's what's called politics. It can't be avoided.
(3) Never quit. Never give up. Revolution is not a short-term or a weekend thing. I've been waiting for things to start up on a mass scale for thirty years.
Well said. Not just reach out to unions, but unionize some places that really are crying out to be unionized, namely Wal-Mart.
And 'here, here' to not giving up!
I agree that reaching out to unions is a good idea. Occupy Wall Street is in the heart land of union workers. Everyone has some common ground. Unions support working wages, benefits and affordable health care. Gov. Cuomo is a poster child for David Koch. We truly are blessed with a corporate lawyer turned Governor who made millions of dollars working at Island Capital LLC. setting up the first securitization market in Dubai. Our own Governor knows how to bundle mortgage securities. Some people say Washington DC should be the place to send a message. I believe that Occupy Wall Street could not have found a better place in this World to pitch tent.
When the Democrats started the KKK, did the unions support them?
I'm sure some Democrats and Republicans were union members and KKK members. Not sure what you mean that unions supported racism. I doubt it that all unions, democrats, protestants and white people supported and were card carrying members of the KKK or were Nazis.
Did the democrats start the KKK?
No, the Democrats did not start the KKK.
Wrong. They did. To kill blacks and republicans.
Really....I think you need to research the origins of the KKK.
I did. Keep it simple and check Wikipedia. Just say sorry when your done.
This argument about the KKK's Democrat or Republican origin is really not relevant without the understanding of the two eras of party ideology. The Democrats or yesterday supported different ideals. They were not the same as today and they organized to fight against the Republican such as (Abraham Lincoln). The two eras of Republican ideology are the National Whig-Republican epoch from 1828 to 1924 and the Neoliberal Republican epoch from 1928 to 1992. The ideology of the Democratic Party has evolved...It now supports the labor parties, civil rights and unions. The elder era of Republicans pushed for Federal strength and now they support less government- less regulation. There is really no need to reference which party started the KKK. You may just compare what the KKK stood for and align it to today's current party ideals.
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/journal_of_policy_history/v012/12.3speel.pdf
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Confederate college students. The KKK was anti-Catholic too but that doesn't mean that the Baptist religion created the KKK. The KKK was also anti-union because they didn't like Jews and Catholics competing for the same trades jobs. The fact is that the KKK was born out of an idea. It wasn't a Democratic idea or a religious idea but it did fuel a hatred for blacks, Jews, Catholics and trade unions.
Did you look it up? If so you would have not left out Republicans? Take your bullshit elsewhere please.
You get all your information from Wikipedia and you still don't have a clue what you are talking about. The Democratic Party embraced the KKK to weaken the Republican Party. Get past your 3rd grade reading level and understand that the KKK was not created by the Democratic Party.
You do realize that those southern Democrats became the Republicans of today. Don't leave that out. Gotta educate you know ;^)
Nixon's "Southern Strategy" still plays with the GOP. For those that never heard of it, it's basically, playing on racism of the white southern republicans. "Keep it simple and check Wikipedia."
I've got a post up with some tactics.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/passive-resistance-tactics-for-protests/
Same with me...started in 1961. Back then communication was really limited. We learned a lot...like how to go limp when arrested but we were not as clever as today's youth. What I do miss however is the music that developed around the campfires... Music and lyrics send messages that chain thoughts and feelings. Example Bridge Over Troubled Water....
Cool. Thanks Dave.
Yeah, there should be cooperation to become stronger and wiser.
Thanks for the tips.
"(1) OWS needs to reach out to the labor movement," Yes, but it first needs to get strategy to gain constitutional authority to meet demands.------
Without that, it's all for naught. Which is why so many are mislead to think there is something wrong with using Article 5 of the constitution right NOW! Article 5 is the only way to gain authority over a nearly completely corrupted US government.-------
Demonstrate in the state capitols DEMANDING they act to enforce the constitution and demand from congress in publicized demand, that an article 5 convention begin IMMEDIATELY!
Check these posts I've made this AM. http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-is-a-living-wage/#comment-293457 http://occupywallst.org/forum/again-army-veteran-injured-in-oakland-clashes-with/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/woman-cried-do-to-violence-towards-her-store/#comment-293508 http://occupywallst.org/forum/please-dont-squander-this-opportunity/#comment-292908
Need help making a t-shirt. We need to draw a picture of Zooccotti Park with a cage around it. Here are some ideas: Draw a hippie climbing the cage like a monkey and throwing shit.
Draw a hippie rolling in mud and shit like a pig.
Draw a hippies fucking like dogs.
Draw a picture of a hippie eating peanuts like a big fucking elephant. Draw a hippie as a lazy fucking Ape doing nothing.
You have a problem. I hope you get the help you need.
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I was a young girl in the 1960's, and blasted the Beatles Revolution all the time and sang it out loud. I too have been waiting for this movement. Though this time it is different. The systems in place are failing us all, from economic to educational to governmental, to agricultural. We are living in an interconnected global society. We can not ignore our hungry neighbors or war torn Afghanistan. We can't forgive the injustices perpetrated by a few on Wall Street. Blaming others won't solve anything, though. The best Occupy sign I saw said,, "Occupy your mind, revolution begins within." The only thing we can change is ourselves. This in turn will change the world. We create our world each and every minute of the day. This movement is growing and will grow because we have no other choice. We need to develop new systems and ways of living because what we have is unsustainable. You are right that when we get desperate enough we will be forced to help others to save ourselves. This is what's happening. Our interdependence is driving us. We are moving away from the belief that we need "things." History does seem to be repeating itself as it always does but maybe this time will be different. We humans are further in our evolution, so I would like to think so.
I think we are coming back to personal responsibility.
nothing to share, this times are different. This OWS is great, just started, the authorities will start making mistakes and finally get more anger out.
The 60th did not have cameras all over - use this to your advantage, just like the communication on the internet.
You mean anger like this ? lol
Yeah looks really good for "The Movement"
http://www.breitbart.tv/occupydenver-thugs-knock-motorcycle-cop-to-ground/
Why did the Police drive towards them? To provoke? The guy was just helping him to move on. If the police would really be serious then they would join a friendly conversation and reach out.
Some really do.
Not if we tipple the OWS community and if donations rolling in.
I loved it! Thanks for the link, that short cop could seriously sprint. If I knew his badge I would offer him a spot in our tac class for free.
Read "From Dictatorship to Democracy" by Gene Sharp. It helped push the Eastern European movement of the late 1980's and early 90' and Arab revolution of this year. It's all there...
http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations/org/FDTD.pdf
Just read it. It seems to be to be a set of largely liberal platitudes about dictatorships. It says little or nothing about the "dictatorship" of capitalism and of corporate economic power.
Duel purpose Crowd Moldings acts as post for signs, great for poking, and keeping adversaries at a distance.
Hardwood Maple dowel rod, available in many diameters and lengths. Suggest length for poking sticks is 6 to 7ft long with 3” to 4” diameter
See google for suppliers
Sorry I haven't posted lately. I've been busy with personal stuff and with the Labor Outreach Committee, which held a meeting November 18, the day after the big March and three days after the 1% Raid.
If I have learned anything as an Old Sixties Revolutionary, it's that defecation occurs. The raid was a set-back. It also creates new opportunities. Join a committee. Keep on truckin'!
Though not a (visible) revolutionary, I was young in the 60’s and already beginning to sense that the “system” was wrong well beyond politics or capitalism.
But it took me a lifetime to be able to articulate my thoughts into something coherent. You can read about it on my blog at www.leoforesta.com. It is about spirituality and the global crisis, and how each of us can live through the momentous transition.
I hope it will be useful to you.
Fear not Love,
Leo
Like the old saying goes :
If your not a part of the solution, your part of the problem.
99% Activism works, so lets get active.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/come-on-people-time-to-start-puting-up-or-shutting/
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. July 4, 1776.
Love it. Thanks, CC.
You are welcome!
All the 1960s revolutionaries became 2011 CEOs they all fought for peace in Vietnam and then in the name of peace got the US to pull out leaving millions to suffer at the hands of the communists. Don't waste your time on 1960s sellouts.
The people have power. The anti war movement helped end the unjust Viet Nam war. A little respect please. You folks are so dumb. You will fail. Most of us boomers already forgot more than you will ever know.
If you reach out to labor then you are doing just what OWS is against! The unions take dues from the workers and then give millions to liberal politicians and the workers have no say in the matter. OWS, if you reach out to the corrupt unions then you will be part of the same old problem. You do not want rich folks to give money to politicians, why is it ok for the unions to give to them. If you reach out to the unions then you are just a joke that everyone will make fun of you because you just can't have it both ways.
Ask Bill Ayers, 0bams's mentor.
If you really like to change things, please click the following link and start a campaign to get millions to sign it......Thanks.
http://www.change.org/petitions/members-of-congress-and-senators-fix-the-economy-and-balance-the-budget-now?pe=d4e
Pl. click the following link and get millions to sign it.......Thanks.
http://www.change.org/petitions/members-of-congress-and-senators-fix-the-economy-and-balance-the-budget-now?pe=d4e
I think most of the 1960's Revolutionaries are now working for big corporations or retired from Federal service. Or in Politics making huge amounts of money. Did you ever see the Coke ad on TV when all the folks went back to Woodstock 40 years later with golf gear, nice cars and stuff. It was funny. Everything that happened in the 1960's did not matter. We still have war. We still have hunger. I think war is far more horrible that Wall Street. Folks just do not have to serve now like we did . So they just do not care.
Adopt the following platform to achieve political clout:
Why this is Important Currently Congress is reviewing cutting benefits of millions of Americans while keeping their perks and benefits intact. They must not be treated differently than any average hard working American. If the hatred and the childish behavior we are currently witnessing in the congress does not end soon we must fire the elected representative whether a Democrat or Republican and elect a new member who puts the interest of the millions of hard working Americans before the party. If necessary, the time is now to start a new 3rd party "All American" that governs from the middle representing the most Americans. This party can start with the following platform: 1) Balance the Budget in the next 8 years. 2) Make a pledge to make America energy independent over the next 8 yrs. Start using natural gas for converting national Buses, Trucks and all gas guzzling vehicles to natural gas in the first phase. In many countries mass transit buses and some private automobiles already run on natural gas which is cleaner than regular gas. The technology already exist. 3) Cut the budget of non-essential and non-productive Federal Departments in half. 4) Cut the budget of every other Federal Department except Defense by 10% 5) Review Defense and cut all the waste wherever possible and feasible. Strengthen wherever necessary. 6) Put wage and price freeze across America until we balance the Federal Budget that includes Congress, Federal Employees and ordinary Americans 7) Cut the Expense Budgets of Congressman by 15% and put a mandate that they must travel in economy class in public airlines like most Americans do. 8) Give Tax Breaks to companies that innovate and manufacture in America using American workers. 9) Close all corporate loopholes, stop all subsidies to large oil companies and other profitable public corporations. All large corporation should pay a minimum of 15% corporate tax, no exceptions. 10) Give incentives and low rate loans to bonafide new start-up small companies with a strong business plan that would employ more than 10 employees. 11) Re-evaluate all trade agreements and stop all unfair trade practices by all foreign countries. 12) Give 10% Tax Credit to anyone buying an American car or any American made large ticket item. 13) Require banks to approve all mortgages in a timely manner with clear guidelines to stimulate home buying. Hold banks accountable if they turn down any qualified loan application in a timely manner. Offer $2000 Tax Credit to a qualified new home buyer for the next 3 years 14) Introduce a new 2% National Debt Reduction Tax for all the ordinary American tax payers. Anyone making more than half a million dollars ($500,000) per year would pay 3% National Debt Reduction Tax while all corporations with the revenues over 1 Billion Dollars would pay 4% National Debt Reduction Tax. The budgets of all the federal departments would be frozen until the federal budget is balanced. THIS TAX MUST BE ELIMINATED UPON BALANCING THE FEDERAL BUDGET with a going forward balanced budget amendment without this added tax. 15) Put a 5% National Debt Reduction Tax on all the Chinese imports until the federal budget is balanced. 16) The Social Security and Medical Benefits of all the individuals over 58 yrs would be protected while looking to eliminate waste without reduction in benefits. In the future, Congress should not be allowed to dip in to Social Security and Medical trust fund. The Congress and the Federal Employees will not have a separate program. All individuals should be given control of their own accounts with a limited safe investment options similar to the options available in the annuities offered by many private insurance companies.
IF YOU AGREE, PLEASE MAIL THIS TO EVERYONE CONCERNED ABOUT OUR ECONOMY AND SERIOUS ABOUT FIXING THE PROBLEMS. We must be strong at home to be strong abroad. If we don't fix our problems at home, we would become a laughing stock in the rest of the world. Fire any elected official who play the partisan politics and ignore the reality and fail to understand the pain of ordinary citizens. Do send this to your Congressmen and Senators.
Adopt the following platform to achieve political clout:
Why this is Important Currently Congress is reviewing cutting benefits of millions of Americans while keeping their perks and benefits intact. They must not be treated differently than any average hard working American. If the hatred and the childish behavior we are currently witnessing in the congress does not end soon we must fire the elected representative whether a Democrat or Republican and elect a new member who puts the interest of the millions of hard working Americans before the party. If necessary, the time is now to start a new 3rd party "All American" that governs from the middle representing the most Americans. This party can start with the following platform: 1) Balance the Budget in the next 8 years. 2) Make a pledge to make America energy independent over the next 8 yrs. Start using natural gas for converting national Buses, Trucks and all gas guzzling vehicles to natural gas in the first phase. In many countries mass transit buses and some private automobiles already run on natural gas which is cleaner than regular gas. The technology already exist. 3) Cut the budget of non-essential and non-productive Federal Departments in half. 4) Cut the budget of every other Federal Department except Defense by 10% 5) Review Defense and cut all the waste wherever possible and feasible. Strengthen wherever necessary. 6) Put wage and price freeze across America until we balance the Federal Budget that includes Congress, Federal Employees and ordinary Americans 7) Cut the Expense Budgets of Congressman by 15% and put a mandate that they must travel in economy class in public airlines like most Americans do. 8) Give Tax Breaks to companies that innovate and manufacture in America using American workers. 9) Close all corporate loopholes, stop all subsidies to large oil companies and other profitable public corporations. All large corporation should pay a minimum of 15% corporate tax, no exceptions. 10) Give incentives and low rate loans to bonafide new start-up small companies with a strong business plan that would employ more than 10 employees. 11) Re-evaluate all trade agreements and stop all unfair trade practices by all foreign countries. 12) Give 10% Tax Credit to anyone buying an American car or any American made large ticket item. 13) Require banks to approve all mortgages in a timely manner with clear guidelines to stimulate home buying. Hold banks accountable if they turn down any qualified loan application in a timely manner. Offer $2000 Tax Credit to a qualified new home buyer for the next 3 years 14) Introduce a new 2% National Debt Reduction Tax for all the ordinary American tax payers. Anyone making more than half a million dollars ($500,000) per year would pay 3% National Debt Reduction Tax while all corporations with the revenues over 1 Billion Dollars would pay 4% National Debt Reduction Tax. The budgets of all the federal departments would be frozen until the federal budget is balanced. THIS TAX MUST BE ELIMINATED UPON BALANCING THE FEDERAL BUDGET with a going forward balanced budget amendment without this added tax. 15) Put a 5% National Debt Reduction Tax on all the Chinese imports until the federal budget is balanced. 16) The Social Security and Medical Benefits of all the individuals over 58 yrs would be protected while looking to eliminate waste without reduction in benefits. In the future, Congress should not be allowed to dip in to Social Security and Medical trust fund. The Congress and the Federal Employees will not have a separate program. All individuals should be given control of their own accounts with a limited safe investment options similar to the options available in the annuities offered by many private insurance companies.
IF YOU AGREE, PLEASE MAIL THIS TO EVERYONE CONCERNED ABOUT OUR ECONOMY AND SERIOUS ABOUT FIXING THE PROBLEMS. We must be strong at home to be strong abroad. If we don't fix our problems at home, we would become a laughing stock in the rest of the world. Fire any elected official who play the partisan politics and ignore the reality and fail to understand the pain of ordinary citizens. Do send this to your Congressmen and Senators.
Thanks:)
http://www.facebook.com/balancetransferday
Make your voice heard across the Nation on December 11 2011
Balance Transfer Day
The 60's revolution failed, that's why we are in this mess. Money&Greed won out over Peace&Love. Too many of those 1960's hippies gave up, sold out, or got burnt out. Let's hope the hipsters of the 21st century don't make the same mistakes. The future depends on it.
Please read&share: http://mosesbaca.blogspot.com/
I'm sick of all of you. Every generation since time began have fought these fights. Money and greed will always try to oppress for their benifit. A vocal counter attack is need constantly. Only, in the end will there be a clear winner. Hating and decrying the ones who came before you will only serve to break down the movement and subvert our power. It's classic right versus wrong. There will be sell outs, but we shouldfocus on strenghthening our line. This does not happen with derision.
Yeah, let's get advice from doped-out, promiscuous, diseased cowards with fried brains!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLwgSMH5Jt4&feature=share
I'm 68 years old. My advice to OWS is not much different from that of Naomi Klein. Just keep on keeping on. I think you all are doing pretty much the right thing. Of course you will come up against glitches, but they will be your glitches. If I would caution about anything it would be about the impatience of certain elements in our movement who want us to be more focussed. Ironically these concerns seem to come from the more moderate elements of our movement. I'm no Leninist, but as Lenin once remarked, patience is a revolutionary virtue. The transition from feudalism to capitalism took 1000 years. The transition from a corporate dominated society to real democracy may well take that long.
Agreed. Patience is Hard when you are finally seeing an awakening.
I]m sorry, I'd have to disagree. As I see it, it's the initiators of the movement, the most radical, the most visionary, the most awake who are also the most patient. It is the reformers, those who would be satisfied with campaign finance reform or some similar nostrum who are both still half asleep themselves and considerably less patient than the more radical elements of our movement
Yeah, we should beat-up on the moderates. The world beats to only one self-important drum. It takes all kinds and you sound like a drag.
By no means did I mean to beat up on the more moderate elements in the Occupy movement and I am most sorry if my posting came across that way. I was trying to make an observation about how various elements in the movement tend to thing and it's been my perception (though I could be wrong) that the more moderate elements tend to be less patient. Indeed, the felt need to raise specific demands is, I think, a reflection of a certain impatience. It's like saying: We need to do this right now and that will fix everything, to which the more radical elements reply: there's a lot wrong with this system, way more than any single demand or even a set of specific demands will fix. To really get us out of the fix we are in will take a much more comprehensive program than a single demand or set of demands suggests. We need first to build a movement that not only represents the vast majority, but really is the vast majority. Then we won't have to make any demands because at that point we will be in a position to democratically remake society on our own, collectively, from below.
Right on. I'm sorry. I didn't realize how staring a forum would bring out the haters. It has made me a little edgy. I'm sorry for my tone and appreciate your views.
Yes fuck as much hairy bush as possible
That is the revolutionaries wisdom to share....
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. July 4, 1776.
BOOM!
Recognize you are young, don't know as much as you think you do, and that the world is much too complex to fix with simple slogans no matter how heartfelt.
What generation do you think the leaders of the current system came from ?
i, like, yelled at people in a park in 1968...never finished college...bitched in the 70's...took a few odd jobs in the 80's...tried christianity, then buddhism again, then wicca, then chrsitinity again...drank some more...tried to kill myself. Now, I think I can offer you guidance, even though my peers from '68 control me because i am a weak failure and still blame others for my issues.
show support by leaving your front porch light on.
Read about the Philadelphia General Strike of 1910.
It amazes me that there are people who have bought into the mass-media hoax that the 1960s generation was a failure or that the protest movement of the Sixties was a failure. There was a complete cultural transformation as a result of the Sixties generation, and I do mean a positive transformation. That process has not stopped and it will not stop, and OWS is merely the latest step in a long series of steps that preceded the Sixties and will continue far into the future. It's about incremental steps. It's not about "Did we reach our final goal in a month, or a year, or in a decade?"
It amazes me that there are people who have bought into the mass-media hoax that the 1960s generation was a failure or that the protest movement of the Sixties was a failure. There was a complete cultural transformation as a result of the Sixties generation, and I do mean a positive transformation. That process has not stopped and it will not stop, and OWS is merely the latest step in a long series of steps that preceded the Sixties and will continue far into the future. It's about incremental steps. It's not about "Did we reach our final goal in a month, or a year, or in a decade?"
I know!!!!! I'm so glad to hear from someone who gets it. I wanted this forum to give a little perspective and you are such an asset. Thank you.
It goes back even before the 1960s. Read this: "An Interview with William Scott, Author of 'Troublemakers: Power, Representation, and the Fiction of the Mass Worker.' Portraits of the Revolution from Occupy Wall Street, Liberty Square, Part Four" http://www.robcouteau.com/occupywallstreetmanhattanlibertysquarezuccottiparkinterviews.htm
Thank you, Jack. I have had so many haters on the boomers, it's driving me crazy. They are a living resource with knowledge of what works and does not. Every generation has freedom fighters, some catch that lightning in a bottle and change the world. It goes back to f'ing Plymouth Rock. I thought we might could learn something from being inclusive of the living examples.
You are so right. In America we are taught to forget the past and to live exclusively in the moment. By ignoring history we are doomed to make the same mistakes all over again. There are so many links to what is happening now and what happened in the Sixties. In all four parts of that interview this point is made again and again. Just ignore the haters and stay focused on those who appreciate what you are doing. Take the wisdom of past traditions - and "subcultural" traditions - and link it to what is happening now. Only then do you arrive at the full picture. Here's part three, which also highlights those links: http://www.robcouteau.com/occupywallstreetnewyorkcitylibertysquareprotest.htm
Great links. Thank you so much. I was getting bogged down, now re-energized.:)
Dude! check out Osixs. That 60's stuff and protesting is outdated. Check out "the nuclear option". There's nothing better than this out there.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org
Should Read: The media of the day, however, saw...or chose to depict us through the non-sensical lens of fringe groups like the Chicago7 and the racist violence of the West Coast Black Panthers. I differentiate this last group because we worked closely with the Black Panthers from N.Y.instead, who were intelligent, thoughtful Columbia University students from Harlem...pre-quota and on non-sports scholarships.
Letting Liberals water us down with niceness. We were practical, committed radicals for the most part and non-violent. While Libs were largely aligned with us on issues, we differed greatly on tactics. We were willing to acknowledge the Establishment and work WITH it, while the Liberals, who did not want to ruffle feathers, wanted to work solely WITHIN the system. They came to the table as supplicants rather than as co-participants in progress. Being drawn into endless rounds of “We Shall Overcome” and “Kumbaya”.
We allowed ourselves to be drawn into too many diametrically-opposed debates rather than conserving energy for the tasks at hand. Occupy is excellent in that they are drawing in the opposition rather than alienating them. Case in point, Occupy has Unions and Servicemen supporting and marching with them rather than throwing tomatoes, beating up and insulting as they did us.
Best not to get co-opted by either the extreme Right or extreme Left. They both have the capability of pulling a movement off course and back into sloganized stereotypes. Often they pull the same Machievellian strings, as in the case of the 2 great wars where the bankers backed both the Communists and the Germans (Nazis).
Disbanding after the let-down of the 1968 Presidential election, when Nixon won on the backs of the "Moral Majority".
I would actually go back further than the sixties for insight and perspective. The Occupy Movement is now at a similar stage as the Founding Fathers were when they pondered the question of what IS a working democracy and how to build one. Rarely, if ever, mentioned in the history books is the fact that our Founding Fathers sat down with the elders of the Iroquois Confederacy to pose just such questions. From them we learned the notion of representative government and many of the tenants of the Iroquois are in our Bill of Rights…almost verbatim.
The Constitution of the Iroquois Nation http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/iroquois.asp Similarities between Iroquois and US Constitutions http://ipoaa.com/iroquois_constitution_united_states.htm
This winter may very well be the Valley Forge for Occupiers in the North and Mid-West. The weapons are different...fortitude, perseverance, communication, innovation and ...for goodness sake.....warm clothes! Good Read for the new (R)evolutionist. Keep the R for yourself…Occupy your mind. A Movement is only as good as its individual members. < http://escapingthematrix.org/>
((con't)
We allowed ourselves to be drawn into too many diametrically-opposed debates rather than conserving energy for the tasks at hand. Occupy is excellent in that they are drawing in the opposition rather than alienating them. Case in point, Occupy has Unions and Servicemen supporting and marching with them rather than throwing tomatoes, beating up and insulting as they did us.
Best not to get co-opted by either the extreme Right or extreme Left. They both have the capability of pulling a movement off course and back into sloganized stereotypes. Often they pull the same Machievellian strings, as in the case of the 2 great wars where the bankers backed both the Communists and the Germans (Nazis).
Disbanding after the let-down of the 1968 Presidential election, when Nixon won on the backs of the "Moral Majority". I would actually go back further than the sixties for insight and perspective. The Occupy Movement is now at a similar stage as the Founding Fathers were when they pondered the question of what IS a working democracy and how to build one.
Rarely, if ever, mentioned in the history books is the fact that our Founding Fathers sat down with the elders of the Iroquois Confederacy to pose just such questions. From them we learned the notion of representative government and many of the tenants of the Iroquois are in our Bill of Rights…almost verbatim.
The Constitution of the Iroquois Nation http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/iroquois.asp Similarities between Iroquois and US Constitutions http://ipoaa.com/iroquois_constitution_united_states.htm
Good Read for the new (R)evolutionist. Keep the R for yourself…Occupy your mind. A Movement is only as good as its individual members. < http://escapingthematrix.org/>
I was a N.Y.C.organizer with Students for a Democratic Society ( S.D.S.) from the mid sixties until the 1968 Presidential election.
Amongst what I would consider our successes:
Organizing by neighborhood, door-to-door, asking what people wanted. Trees, Better garbage pick-up, baseball teams, Landlord intervention, immigrant rights, voter registration, block parties, neighbor to neighbor dialogue. (On my block alone, we had the wealthy at Central Park West, long-time Irish, Italian and students in the middle, recently-arrived Haitians and Dominican street gangs near Columbus Ave).From this eclectic group, we were able to accomplish all the above goals.
We initially brought these lists of constituent requests to the entrenched Tammany Hall crowd We were dressed in suits and ties...believe it or not. They basically leaned back in their swivel chairs, slowly put their feet up on the desk, nonchalantly blew cigar smoke in our faces and laughed. They couldn't believe we were serious.
So...we countered by running S.D.S candidates against them in virtually ever district.....and won many! This done without corporate money.....all neighborhood fund-raising events. Similar stories for University and College campuses.
Formed healthy, local grassroots groups.
Felt elated at our successes and even more determined at our failures.
Where we failed was:
Letting the "yippies" infiltrate. Out of a nationwide coalition of SDS groups, the "Yippies", of which the Chicago 7 were a part, numbered barely 100. Yet they managed to attract the media with their grandstanding antics. After all, throwing money from the balcony of the Stock Market was much sexier than trudging door-to-door registering new voters.
As it turned out, many of the yippies went underground right after the Chicago Democratic Convention. Guess where they surfaced a decade later....right in the middle of the Establishment! So our initial misgivings about their agenda proved correct. They were infiltrators.
The media of the day, however, saw...or chose to depict us through the non-sensical lens of fringe groups like the Chicago7 and the racist violence of the West Coast Black Panthers. I differentiate this last group because we worked closely with the Black Panthers from N.Y.instead, who were intelligent, thoughtful Columbia University students from Harlem...pre-quota and on non-sports scholarships.
Letting Liberals water us down with niceness. We were practical, committed radicals for the most part and non-violent. While Libs were largely aligned with us on issues, we differed greatly on tactics. We were willing to acknowledge the Establishment and work WITH it, while the Liberals, who did not want to ruffle feathers, wanted to work solely WITHIN the system. They came to the table as supplicants rather than as co-participants in progress. Being drawn into endless rounds of “We Shall Overcome” and “Kumbaya”. (con't.)
Good stuff! Thank you! As I was performing military duty at the time, I was an observer, not a participant. But your description of the Yippies vs. those working for serious change rings many bells. Whatever is most extreme or colorful garners the media’s attention. When these two elements can be combined, it appears movements have their best chance for success.
MLK comes to mind as a charismatic figure that both gained great public attention and worked for solid, positive change. I think it’s essential to note that perhaps the single most important tool to make change both successful and positive is non-violence. I think that can be seen through efforts of figures like MLK, Gandhi and the organization that the ANC evolved into.
Very nice. That makes me feel inspired to get into my community. I think I'll have a hard row to hoe here in Texas. lol
No hard row to hoe. Start with the common denometers in your community. Also learn something about Permaculture. ( Many hands make light work)
as an ( arrested protesting at a Nixon speech ) Vietnam anti-war "veteran" - I can share some experience of that time.
leaders - not dictators - moved us forward by providing a structure that has worked for centuries. MLK is just one example. RFK JFK
meetings with the ( forgive me ) traditional democratic process worked.
The "process" may be the ultimate democratic process - BUT is the process our goal or is JOBS our goal? is the process our goal or is MONEY OUT our goal?
I see the movement almost becoming a dogmatic religion. Consider Jesus wanting harmony and peace and brotherhood - and what his process has brought us.
disagreements with acrimony and rudeness did lead to violence occasionally in the movement ( but we did not have the web between us )
civility - inside the movement - drew people together
violence may be the way - but NRA increased our murder rate without resorting to violence. AARP increased their piece of the American pie without violence. And God help us - TP took over the RP without violence. AND WE ARE SO MUCH BIGGER!
Bensdad, I agree with all of this. I especially hope we see some great leaders come out of this, and I hope we do infiltrate our government. With our numbers we could get into every corner and make ral and lasting change. Thank you
Fun,Humor ,Dance,Music---Never Quit-- The 1 % have the Rolexes-- The 99% have the Time............
The movement needs to go door to door and start talking to people. This empowers people to want to help or join your cause.
Genius. I'm a hairdresser and I pretty much talk to every client about it.
Thats wonderful, keep it up.
just like the irish do when it's drinking season.(I am irish) Give us a silver dollar so we can buy some irish fire-whiskey and give full voice to the revolution.
The difference is this time IT IS ACTUALLY WORKING!!!!!
Perhaps I haven't been clear enough. Your referendum should ask the citizens if they want be led by the capitalists or not.
Boycott the military!! During Nam we had no choice because of the draft. I know it's the only work out there, but avoid working for the crooks! Once you join ..... they have you by the short hairs!
The military is one of the most honorable and professional organizations in this entire nation. Granted, some of the leaders are traitors. But the military as a whole is a damn FINE and beautiful machine. One of their only problems is too much reliance on oil. They will be on our side before you can fuck a duck.
If you join an organization where the leaders are traitors; what does that make you? You end up fighting for THEIR traitorous ideas and wars. I know many patriots got caught up in this mess and joined after 9-11; only to have to fight these trumped-up wars. They came home dead; or physically and mentally broken. There are a few however, that seem to have found their niche and really enjoy their job as seen in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5rXPrfnU3G0
I don't know if this is the result of overzealous training; or the individuals ..... I suspect both
"If the appeal to arms is made, it will depend entirely on the disposition of the army whether it issue in liberty or despotism." --Thomas Jefferson
Jump on all the tigers you can and go on until the cops will give up. They are in enormous difficulties, so can't stand up too long. In a few weeks the Greeks will vote a referendum to decide if go out of Europe or not.
Couldn't you organize the same things? That could resolve all your problems.
Thanks a lot to all the 1960's guys and gals helping!
love your enemy
From out of darkness (HE) brought me to (LIGHT) Out of darkness the (" TRUTH ") found me.
Rather have (HIS) (SILVER) of (KNOWLEDGE) than man's gold.
His Silver of Knowledge ( Re-fined ) becomes ( Under-Standing) of (GOLD).
HIS (GOLD) (re-fined) beomes (WISDOM) of (DIAMOND) more brilliant than dimond itself.
For man's didn't create all (3).
Believe it or not Gaddafi was a 60s revolutionary...His Green book is quite relevant.
Its worth researching for your self how bad he was..
Google Green book
No thanks, keep it.
I've been watching protest and political movement since the 1960's. and did get involved in some.----
Since then I've studied how to make protest so legal that cops do not want to have anything to do with their suppression. There is a simple process.
1) Note the problem and find a state or federal law that relates to it and can provide relief.--
2) Find an official that has the legal duty to uphold the law.
3) Compose a letter logically showing how the official must observe the problem and the law that will correct it and demand they perform dutifully. Send the letter certified return. It is best if the letter has a petition format with multiple signatures.
4) After 45 days, under contract law, and the US constitution is a contract, you have the legal right to take action.
When the problem is treason, and we can show enough usurpation of the constitution to justify this claim, protest will have a completely different image and ordinary Americans will clamor to be involved because they KNOW something is VERY wrong.
I love it! Do you think you could start action or contact someone who might?
I'm here to create recognition for this simple and time proven process. OWS is completely in a position to recognize and use this process. All they have to do is re group and educate the protestors across the states and get them protesting in their state capitals AFTER that process is enacted in that state demanding an Article 5 convention application to congress by the state legislation.------
OWS demands are upon issues that effect the entire nation. The first level is very simple and all that is needed is logical priorities to get everyone on the same page. That will require some discussion. The discussion, hopefully, will end up here in full view.---
In support of that, you might send a message to OWS with regard to that legal process and encourage others to do the same. When you've done it, start a thread with the message and an intro explaining what it is and where it was sent so others can support it too.
Ultimately, you need to build a Movement that has organization and is nationwide, that can easily communicate with each other and works to maintain visibility through actions, demonstrations, protests. You need to have a basic Platform to communicate with an analysis of the Plutocracy (the Wealthy Ruling Class), what you want and why. You can develop a pamphlet and distribute and also have it on a Website. You need to develop a better website reflecting your organization, platform, education resources, updates on various Chapters and what they are doing across the country. This means you might to pay dedicated professionals (it is well worth it). This site is chaotic and mostly just for venting as far as I can tell. You can have separate threads for: 1) Organization: How to do it & why with details on facilitating meetings, consensus or modified consensus (there are very serious problems with consensus....an infiltrator and block and stymie all discussions). 2) Education: listing resources, articles, books, etc.; 3) Your platform with analysis and explanations. 4) Serious discussion monitored somehow to keep trolls and associated morons and interlopers away; 5) How to donate; 6) Calendar; 7) Proposed local actions; 8) Chapter input.
The most viable way is to form a Progressive Movement and Party and field own candidates. That is very hard given the fact that the Power Structure makes it hard. Other than that, you can try to influence those in power through normal methods but also through non-violent means: Boycotts, Strikes, Non-cooperative Actions. This is the direction to go for now while simultaneous you build this organization, work to build the structure and communication and educate materials. Work for specific actions: Occupy Washington DC. A million people with civil disobedience, say in the Spring. Meanwhile, smaller actions. Need articulate spokespersons, facilitators to run meetings. If and when conditions change, i.e. socio-economic deterioration, you will be ready to act and move. You can send representatives from chapters to a Congress and concretize the movement. Otherwise, you can keep things as they are but I think it will be hard to sustain it and things can break down into chaos and get anarchic with the authorities crushing you. You need two ARMS: one a public presence, attracting members, supporters; the other to funnel new members into an organization where people get educated and help to communicate your message which has to be focus on specific, basic reforms: 1) Financial; 2) Tax; 3) Electoral; and, 4) Legislative (get rid of filibuster for example).
BOOM!!!! That was awesome! I'm not sure on the third party but everything you said was clear, solid, and completely doable. I hope people see this somehow and get to work.
Hey, no disrespect intended in regards to my other comment. I am thoroughly impressed with the young people and everybody else. Hell, I have been advocated stuff like this for along time. Two years ago, I was telling a friend of mine that we needed to take over Wall Street. So when all this stuff happened I was enthused, make that thrilled. I am very, very impressed with commitment I am seeing. I wrote out a whole strategy about a year and a half ago about creating a thousand chapters across the country, singularly focused on a Progressive Movement. It is doable.
I am so glad when I see a serious clear-headed plan. I want this thing to succeed so badly.
1993
In the past I have seen demonstrations against the Nam war and people change because they were told they had to work within the existing system, getting permits and advice from the status quo. That was a sure recipy for failure. To be in touch and organized within the movement is what works. The enemy wants to keep the status quo at any cost. The best way is to do the unexpected.That is my opinion.
I could point out now that, with Cellular Communications, it should be alot easier to organize.... They did it in Egypt, Syria, and Lebannon, even in England during the recent Rioting, dodging bullets and never knowing if the Internet was going to work or not, why cant we do it here?
In the past I have seen demonstrations against the Nam war and people change because they were told they had to work within the existing system, getting permits and advice from the status quo. That was a sure recipy for failure. To be in touch and organized within the movement is what works. The enemy wants to keep the status quo at any cost. The best way is to do the unexpected.That is my opinion.
Thank you, Ed.
And I have no idea how or why my posts have their fonts blown up like that I promise I had nothing to do with that.
lol, its probably something you're doing, if you're using bullet points or typing a command to do spacing or something.
As a child of 60's hippies, I have participated in many forms of demonstration and protest, successful and not ,from a very young age. Here are but a few of the realities my experiences have revealed to me.
1. The more you are able to take your cause directly to the people the better your chances of success. Example. When I was about 9 years old, the cause of the day was to stop the indiscriminate killing of dolphins by tuna fisheries. The tactic taken was to put us kids in the grocery aisles and have us respectfully confront anyone purchasing non-dolphin safe tuna, and attempt to steer them to the dolphin friendly products. This form of boycott was extremely successful as it relied on the fact that any feeling person couldn't help but be moved by the passionate appeal of a child.
2 When considering actions, often it takes nothing more than the simplest disruption to seriously derail the daily dealings of your target. Example. DuPont Chemicals ( producers of mass quantities of extreme pollutants ) scheduled a recruitment seminar at the University at Bingamton NY ( late 60's ) hoping to lure chemistry grads to work for them. Those who opposed the idea of our brightest and best minds being corrupted by a heartless corporation, packed the hallways ( using the justification that they all were waiting to use the restroom ) where the seminar was being held, and made it very difficult to enter, and those who did try to attend had to face a gauntlet of people trying to talk them out of becoming corporate shills. What had been scheduled to be a three day event was shut down after the first day.
3. An often overlooked aspect of movements of this type is the importance of presenting the most palatable face to the public you are trying to sway. This can not be overstated. Understand that I am a 6'1", 250lbs, purple bearded biker, and I have always dressed and lived in ways that made me stand out from the average. My motto is "Be weird, normal requires no talent of any kind." And though I will support this movement and do my part to get the word out, I certainly have no business being interviewed by FUX news or any other visual media. I recognize that my appearance alone can give people the wrong idea, so if you wish to be flamboyant, please refrain from entering the spotlight. Instead we need to find the most charismatic, well spoken, and mainstream looking individuals to be the voice of this movement.
4. And this is the big one. Anyone who says violence never solved anything has never studied world history as exactly the opposite is true. Almost everything has been accomplished through violence. Understand that I am not endorsing violence, but rather making the point that the 1% are so isolated from the real world that they prefer to spend vast sums hiring independent securities firms ( who won't hesitate to be violent ), and bank rolling hate groups ( T-party ) so they can form a new and improved fascist political party, rather then spend one dime hiring people, paying a living wage, or addressing any of the concerns of the 99%. This IMO evidences an extreme disregard for the common people of our nation, and if we are held in such total disregard it would be most foolish to assume that the 1% will EVER take action to address our issues. I abhor the thought of violence, but equally I fear that it may be the unavoidable and only way we will ever see our concerns addressed.
Keep up the good fight my friends.
Great ideas. Thank you,Deno.
Awwww, Id be more then happy to have a 250 ilbs Purple bearded man as my spokesman.... That said, I too realize alot of more "Mainstream" folks wouldn't..... le sigh....
I remember hearing about the Dolphin Boycott, at the time I was surprised, but Im not so now. I will say though, I don't think something like that will work so very well now. I can't really see Congress being happy if we send children in to stand by them all day, read everything they sign, and try to inform them of the wrong doing they're committing every time they do something against the code of conduct the rest of us would want to hold them to....
I wasn't suggesting sending children amongst the wolves, I was trying to make the point that "the mainstream" needs to see more average Joe Americans and less of the ones ( like myself ) who might elicit a less than sympathetic response.
use headers wisely
I don't know that I qualify as a revolutionary, but I watched that era unfold, and the best advice I can offer is to learn from it. What was it about? And most importantly, why did it ultimately end mostly in failure? What was done, and why didn't it work?
A few scattershot thoughts about possible reasons: Utopian? Lack of cohesion? Failure of charismatic but narcissistic spokespeople? Failure to develop cohesive messages and workable plans? Being coopted by “The System?”
Hmm. Sounds familiar. Good eye.
it did not fail as far as i can see. womens rights, civil rights, employment rights, these all came after the 60's . because of the protest, because these injustices were pointed out and had to be addressed.
Ok, gest, I keep seeing and hearing how everything that happened in the 60's was a failure. What the hell??? I'm only 32 but I have some perspective on what life was like previous to that decade for anyone who wasn't a white male. The Human race can only evolve at it's God-given pace, but that era was a quantum leap forward and has has affected the whole world since. OWS is a continuation of the movement and I think these kids sound spoiled, ungreatful, and ignorant.
Yes, many changes, some progressive. But if, "it did not fail as far as i can see." What are we doing here?
WE are continuing the movement for HUMAN RIGHTS!!!!!! You sound spoiled, ungreatful, and ignorant (not that you are, and I direct that to all who malign the movements of the 60's). Economic oppression was toward the end of a long list of worries for those guys. It's the same oppressors and the same freedom fighters today as it was back then, just a different narrative. I think you young sweethearts could use a little perspective, thus I started this forum.
“I think you young sweethearts could use a little perspective.” I was there and have not attempted to malign anyone.
If your response was sincere, it is unhelpful. Any confusion, distortion, or misinformation will all become weapons which will be used by our enemies against us.
My response was sincere. Can you please tell me what was confused, distorted, or misinformed. If I pushed back too hard toward you, I apologize. I have been responding to alt of (young) people calling for death to the baby-boomers, literally death!, and crying absolute failure of the 60's movements. I got peeved and used a condescending tone. It was not helpful nor am I proud of my actions.
Your apology is gratefully accepted. We can disagree about the facts of the era. My opinions are only that, but they are based on first-hand experience, as I lived through that era. I attempt to offer only constructive criticism. And in that spirit don’t wish to provide negative criticism of any well-intentioned view.
As to bashing we OLD, decrepit, poor and unemployable baby boomers, it might be helpful for some to realize that many of us have and are suffering from the pleasure that the corporatists take in discarding most approaching the magic age of 55. I believe that Jonathan Swift once suggested that as a solution to Irish famine they eat their young. Well, America, get ready to chow down on grandpa!
Generational rivalry in society is normal, and can be constructive. But those behind some beverage-based movements are having fine success using it as a contrived and false issue to divide Americans of different ages with allied interests, in order to accomplish long-standing goals.
this is a new injustice. the corporations throwing jobs under the bus for greed and the government allowing it to happen.
I do not dispute this comment, and am in agreement as to fact and sentiment.
My original post to the OP was an attempt to address the OP’s question as I understand it. Where I think we disagree is in the objectives and results of a broad movement of the late ‘60’s and early ‘70’s. for what might loosely be called social justice. It was highly fragmented, and what the objectives were, was often in the mind of the individual participant. Of the three objectives listed; ending the Vietnam War, Civil Rights and women’s rights, my experience was that the first was a primary cause and one on which it had a significant effect. The second was peripheral, and as I posted earlier, one that was well underway before this movement began, and partly accomplished. The last was a separate movement mostly not addressed by the general, larger movement, and occurred somewhat later.
Sure, you can lump all of these together as they are somewhat similar in flavor, occurred near to one another and shared some participants, but I think that obscures a clear understanding. And I believe that is important if we are to move forward.
You bet, “the corporations throwing jobs under the bus for greed and the government allowing it to happen.” But it is not new; it was a pervasive theme 40 to 45 years ago. But it was never effectively addressed, and over the last 30 years has gotten progressively worse. I suspect you may have already read the following post, but it explains much better than I can some of the root issues we are dealing with.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/30-fucking-years/#comment-252687
NAFTA and GATT are treason.
it ended the war in vietnam
it gave minorities their civil rights
Thank you for the critique. I think you are partly correct and partly mistaken, but I’m at fault for not better defining exactly what I am criticizing. What I am referring to is a broader movement for what can best be compared to the more current term, social justice. The feel of the era was for a revolution of values, rather than a specific agenda. And that is specifically what I was criticizing.
Concerning your specifics:
My experience is that the broader movement certainly had the Vietnam War and the draft as its catalyst. But this war began long before any such movement, and only ended long after this movement’s energy was largely spent, and after pretty much all interests were in favor of ending it for various reasons. But I agree, it did contribute significantly to framing issues about the war, and creating much of the initial pressure to end it.
I feel the success of the civil rights movement has a more tenuous relationship to the broad social youth movement that evolved. Much of it was initiated and even accomplished before the broader movement even formed. However, much of the energy, and many participants, did spring from that earlier movement. And certainly, a more racially inclusive society (Though still incomplete.) did substantially result from many ideas and attitudes from within this broader movement.
the TV informed the public of the atrocities of war in the sixties
but that information source is now controlled
I think that’s a very important distinction.
Awsome points, and highlights the one point I keep making... Organization.....
Thank you.
http://occupywallstreetmusic.com/
Folks have been filming the atrocities committed by the police. Sure some incidents didn't get caught on tape. Remember, a huge portion of the population is too complacent/helpless to do anything. Keep moving, keep working to organize folks and grow the movement. People everywhere are waking up.
Well, keep it up and spread it.
Im hoping this thread won't devolve into a "Everything that went wrong with the Hippies movement" diatribe.....
That said, if you're looking for more advice about how to deal with protests, First things first, get organized..... Without organization, you're pissing in the wind. I said what I did about the cell phones because thats everyone's protection. No Cop wants to be on camera hitting a guy in the ribs with his rifle, or beaming a Vet in the head with a Tear Gas Canister... If someone had caught that on film, there would be asses fired right now in that police department... You blew that one. Likewise the Cops pulling people off the Food table.... What kind of nonsensical rule is "no food tables between 10PM and 6AM"? Its purely a Makework/annoyance tactic, and if every mom dad and child in america could have seen how stupid those cops looked pulling 38 people off a Food Table on Prime time, you'd have gone alot farther with getting your message out.... The difference between hearing about someone and seeing them get beat down is the difference between "oh, gee, well, I wish them well", and "wow, I can't believe it, they really did it, that makes me pissed enough to do something!".
I raise this issue because, not to sew anarchy, chaos, or antagonism, but passivity ONLY works with an audience..... Its your Message and you're not gonna make sure everyone can see it? Its your protection, and you're not gonna have it on film for the civil suit?
Actually, the cop that fired the tear gas canister to vet's head was caught on film.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/27/1030750/-UPDATED:-Oakland-Mayor-Quan-Prosecute-This-Cop-or-Resign:-Photo-Evidence,-Scott-Olsen-Shooting?via=search
Ah, my mistake, and good to see someone had film going. Now, if more then 2 people of the how many people there? had had it, there may not have had to have been a "Was this the canister that hit Scott Olsen?" at the end of that film..... Ideally you want as many people as can be bothered to be filming things, PARTICULARLY during confrontations. If you can get just one camera in a position where it can see everything, or something approximating that, then you would have had film to use at that officers Hearing/trial..... Cops using "non-lethal force" to "Fatally wound" or "Seriously injure" is nothing new..... These 4 Inch Cell phones are your Kevlar. Dont leave it in your Backpack or pocket, put it on!
You want to make a statement to police? When they Line up with their body armor and guns, have a line of protesters sitting there with Iphones and other smart phones Pointing right back at them.....
Last Edit I promise. If this carries on, be ready for cops trying to confiscate Phones during/after confrontations. This another reason to have someone further away with as clear a view as possible..... If they see 200 Protesters, all with cameras? Do you know how hard thats going to be to deal with? Even with 50 cops and 20 swat? They'll run you over sure, but they'll have to be careful about, and they'll know it. Mean doesn't mean stupid....
Nice post! Hard to keep a camera out when being tear gassed and shot at, but that is the best time to have it out.
Falcus, I hope it doesn't devolve, as well. I will do my best to keep it positive. I put it up as a serious request. I support your video idea. We should try to let more people know. Maybe another forum or if someone want to talk at the GA.
First thing Id suggest is to start filming your activites.... Don't tell me you all don't have Cell phones.... Two reasons for this: A:you have undeniable proof of what happened at any given location (This should almost be made a requirement to be considered an OWS function IMHO). B: You won't ever capture another "Flower in the Gun Barrel" moment if someone isn't there with a camera waiting for it to happen.....
Thanks, Falcus. Good call.
Why not burn a baby boomer at the stake, to begin the rally!
Don't encourage the misguided!
That's a complement but when we protested we floundered too. The only advice that I can offer is that OWS needs leadership. To represent and speak.
I only asked for advice. That incudes what to do AND not to do. Thank you for your input.
I was at a protest against raising the subway fare from 25 cents to 30 cents. We were ready to chain open the doors and jump the turnstiles but we spotted our nemisis Lt. Finnegan of the red Squad (aka "gang Intelligence unit.") Suddenly a guy we didn't know jumped a turnstile even though there were cops in unifrm all around us. A cop cracked his skull as Finnegan went into conniptions. Seems the jumper was one of Finnegan's guys and the thug in uniform had forgotten the color of the day.
OWS needs to take their half million and whatever else donations the cities have collected and rent halls to give assemblies advertising to the 99% to attend and we need to protest. That way we have control of the morons that are destroying the movement.We need to de-occupy public spaces, go back to our cities and support the economy and hold our rallies in each city. This whole thing is getting way out of control and we are not attracting and educating the 99% that are still living in la la land. Without support from 100% of the 99% we will see no change. From a 64 year old that spent the 60s in Hollywood, California
First order of constitutional defense. Learn to identify social infiltrations intending to disrupt citizens forming unity around lawful actions defending the constitution. There's a series of attacks by such an infiltrator acting treasonously to damage lawful action upon those seeking to defend the constitution, whether they know it or not.-
http://occupywallst.org/forum/woman-cried-do-to-violence-towards-her-store/#comment-297837
Solidarity.
Yes, solidarity, but on many levels, ready to adapt to the next. Knowledge empowers each level. The knowledge at the end of one is the beginning of the next.-------
Now, I'm on the level of establishing knowledge of HOW to expose infiltrators of this web forum and how their actions are properly seen as treasonous. The function of this is of SOLIDARITY. We can do this.-----
Those imposters on the ground conducting violent, unlawful acts, are a part of the same effort as the infiltrators here of the web form seeking to dilute and distract citizens from unity in defense of the constitution. Those acts are used by the social infiltrators here to increase damage the standing in the eyes of society of the social movement.------
This is a level of psychological and emotional solidarity we are going to need as human beings to overcome the infiltrations of government by first overcoming the treasonous infiltrations of our activist society working to impair our unity in defense of the constitution.
Correct, but more because it is a unified perception of how the constitution meets our needs by ordering our society in a fair fashion that accomodates change and needed response to different conditions.------
By our uniform consolidation with understanding of this behind the fixed and written laws, we gain POWER. And that power is just because it is the good that got us where we are in opposition to the BAD we feel converging upon us. Our good will always find consistency with the constitution IF we understand.
Pizzazz Picasso and the Killumination - Killuminati ft. Gaje http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLUpGGmku8g
Pizzazz Picasso and the Killumination - Change (Killumination version) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SMrnx6nkRw
Pizzazz Picasso and the Killumination - The inevitable incredible truth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wg1bH6-1YY
Pizzazz Picasso and the Killumination - The all seeing eye http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgKS4i-u0OM
http://www.reverbnation.com/Killumination
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This has worked for me- Always find a way to agree even if it is to agree to disagree until tomorrow and find common ground to stand on together that day. Here is an awesome quote- Beliefs have the power to create and the power to destroy. Human beings have the awesome ability to take any experience of their lives and create a meaning that disempowers them or one that can literally save their lives. by: Tony Robbins
Agreed. In all things, Attitude is Everything!
Smoke LOTS of drugs, be dirty and smell, don't do any manual labor of any sort, have sex with anyone or anything, blame Whites for all the problems, go to Canada and sponge off the Canadians if all else fails. That pretty much sums up the 60's movement
Smoke LOTS of drugs, be dirty and smell, don't do any manual labor of any sort, have sex with anyone or anything, blame Whites for all the problems, go to Canada and sponge off the Canadians if all else fails. That pretty much sums up the 60's movement
Not constructive
Why? The 60s 'revolutionaries' were dismal failures.
WE are their success. They gaves us the idea that we could do this.
Speak for yourself. I don't get my ideas from the 60s generation. The 60s generation is (1) very overrated and (2) very romanticized/mythologized. People that try to emulate yesteryear are, in my opinion, half dead. If the 60s generation had been as obsessed with the 20s generation as you are with the 60s, there never would've been a unique 60s generation, just a bunch of losers trying to reenact the 1920s. This is 2011; the 2060s are closer to us than the 1960s. Time to move on, create something new that stands out on its own.
Yes, history has nothing to teach us and old people are stupid. Get a grip, all of you haters.
You miss the point; it's not that 'history has nothing to teach us', but rather properly understanding history's lessons. In the case of the 60s generation, it's more a matter of recognizing what NOT to do. Nothing I said suggests "old people are stupid"; you seem very confused.
Old people are old however, and there's something sick about young people envying and emulating a long past generation. When that happens, culture stagnates and dies and becomes a depressing ritual of looking backward, trying to reenact the past.
Again, the irony is, if the 60s generation were as obsessed with the past as you are there would never have been a unique 60s generation. It's 2011, not "1967 2.0". Deal with it.
I asked them for advice. That includes what not to do.
I fear it is your generation that is confused. Revolution is a thread that runs through our whole history, at times it can catch fire and change the world.
1960's were 1920 were 1860's were 1770's were 1620's and so on. You guy sound like naive, ungrateful brats and I hope the grown-ups can take what you have started and actually get some results.
Can someone share some legal advice, or is there some process available on how to go about to stop paying taxes, as a hit-them-where-it-hurts kind of deal? Believe govt would react timely.
Not a bad thought:)
look up Gordon Call
They can't help cause they're all in the white house as they are now the same guys they railed against, "The Common Man" is now "The Man"
Plus, they might have some insight into how we can avoid selling out the Human Race.
I'm not gonna argue that point. You're right to a large degree. However, if there are any that didn't sell out, they are sure to be here:)
Just like "DoNotLoot", "GaiaGirl", "Metoo", "MattLHolck", "Tednugent", "OccupyEverything", "brianobx", "Hilscher", "HilscherBanned", "blkflg", "gr57", "Badhornet', "Earnit", "thebeach", "Jonas", "Joeschmoe1000" "americanfreedom69", "uslynx81", "therealdeal2011", "1percenter4life", "superspiff", "suwata", "sudoname", "Momcalled", "justfactsallowed", "ArrestAllCEOS", "AntiCorp", "MikeyD", "MovingTwoChina", and "DukeNukem299", "dukeNukem347", "Moving8China", "MovingToReelection", "Rob", "angelofmercy", "AllThe Way", "CoffeeKick", "hahaha", "MisguidedYouth", , "hillary", "RicoSuave", "Uriah" , "RichardGates", "The1Capitalist","brianingrandy", "weeicemon", "MisguidedYouth2" was outed as a TROLL ages ago...
To understand WHAT MAKES A TROLL TICK - AND have a chuckle while you're at it - go to:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-trolls-think-trollosophy-exposed/
this is a stupid request. You need psychiatric help. and career counseling.
Hey man, I would love to tell you what we did, but you know the old saying; "if you remember the 60s then you weren't there". Peace.
FUCK The Boomers! Let the fuckers die in the gutter!
Do you have two handles? I just saw your forum on how we should let the boomers die. This forum is not the place for you. Leave us alone to be constructive, please.
[Deleted]
You guys are hilarious. Every generation has the choice to sell out or not. Very few can resist the temptations. "As long as MY needs are met, I don't care what happens to the environment, poor countries, poor people an my country"....fill in the blank. We should blame every generation since the beginning of time and while we are at it the Human Condition. When we are desperate we can be forced to help others to save ourselves. Hopefully, we can cast off our base nature in this small window and try to change the world once more.
I am a member of the Baby Boomer Gen with no health benefits, no job, no money, very little retirement. Was an activist for over twenty years. Be care ful of generalities. The generation older than mine, your grandparents are the ones who are really cashing in on social benefits which you seem to be attacking. Speaking in generalities makes everything black and white and is really satisfying psychologically but lots of people I know in my generation struggle.
take away healthcare? how so? and then we should of course kill the next set of boomers now , before they grow up and cost any money. wouldnt that make sense to you?
I've been waiting for the post baby boomers to wake up for 47 yrs. You guys have done ZERO in changing any form of corruption in government or anywhere else for that matter! So finally this new generation says enough with sitting on our hands, and stands up against the bull shit. And they have to go back a generation to find people that gave a shit.....you should be ashamed
Hell yeah! We have been so freakin spoiled and lazy! I'm so over us. WE must decide if we have one speck of backbone and can still f'ing tell right from wrong. We have to completely burst the bubble and let these babies see what happens when daddy quits feeding him the answers. Every generation makes mistake and the next is charged with the clean-up. I hope OWS will produce the minds with the plan because everyone else I meet is in a self-indulgent coma.
It is just human nature mostly. THe mass of each generation and humanity is oriented toward Self and materialism, consumerism being the modus operandi in today's world. You got to figure that 99% of the country is selfish. If it wasn't for economic problems, most of the people on this site would be working, consuming, and not giving much of a shit about anybody else. The younger generation, in particular, got use to a very easy lifestyle without much effort and now the chickens are coming home to roost, i.e. their expectations were high and so they don't have to be starving or homeless to protest, they just might not be able to buy IPODS and party like they thought they would be able to (I'm exaggerating but you get my point). This latest generation is probably the most self-indulgent but potentially most rebellious when they lose their toys and other perks which they think they are entitled to. If they had jobs, most of them would be spending more time in front of their computers downloading Itunes and not on the streets. I realize I am sounding like a conservative here but no, I am a long-time Leftist but this is just reality of Capitalism and the Consumer-Materialistic world we live in. They may be the 99% but give them a job and maybe health care and most would no longer be occupying anything. About one in one thousand are truly dedicated in spirit to fundamental revolutionary change and it might even be far less.
Maybe we could just change some hearts. I'm really uncomfortable with how easily you guys tell me to let my parents and their generation die. Let's keep it positive. It's the only way.
I'm not telling any one to let their parents die. How ever, if you think about it for a second... Your parents are telling you to die if you can't afford health insurance. Your parents are the ones trying to deny you the same rights they had.
This is starting to get to broad and generalized. My original comment was a blanket statement but a fairly true one. It's the Baby Boomer generation that has really screwed up this country. Either by their actions or inaction when they ignored what the Corrupt were doing.
i hope your under 18 because other wise youve had all this time to do something and you didnt.
OUr generation and many before are complicit. It's the same good v evil since the beginning of time. Do you believe you are your brothers keeper. I do and many baby boomers did. It's the elite that suck the blood of the vulnerable..
No. you are wrong. Each generation behaves approximately the same way. The vast majority of people are oriented toward themselves, their families and getting the good life. Your grandparents and great-grandparents were no different. I have a nephew who talks like you. While you and your generation are finally doing something, many of my generation protested the Vietnam War, the capitalistic system, etc. Some of us dedicated ourselves to protesting in our thirties an forties and even fifties (I did) but you pay for it. Let's see how long you really protest and commit yourself to this movement. I am hearing a lot of Big Talk but let's see if you are still protesting six months or a year from now. Hanging out in an "Occupied" area and protesting for a few days, weeks or months, is not the same a dedicating oneself for years to political change. Toss us a line six months from now. Most people protest somewhat but never want to do the hard work of really organizing which can be much, much harder than what is going on with the Occupy Movement.
SO....how does that make me wrong? I said, throughout history, Its the same story. You said "Each generation behaves approximately the same way." Sound about right.? It's oppressor v. oppressed. Being a bitch about my commitment isn't positive. We are breeding the new generation of organizers, protesters and leaders and might be helpful for you to get off your soapbox and educate rather than act superior. You sound bitter.
Misinformed in reading your post, I said I wasn't up to scratch on the issue itself, which was why I asked for corrections if I made a mistake ^^. Thank you for clarifying. and my point still stands. The Baby boomers are just as diverse a group as any other. Next, there are people much older then the Baby Boomers drawing Medicare, Medicaid, and SS, as well as many much younger. Finally, I would only find cutting Medical services to a group of people that had come to rely on it acceptable if there was an alternative already in place. Or if you were willing to give up something of equivalent value to your person
So you are saying your children should suffer with out healthcare but you keep it because you are use to it ? Baby Boomer ?
tr289 you are very misinformed, the elderly (baby boomers) are the ones who are fighting to keep medicare, medicaid, and social security afloat. The funds for those programs were raided by politicians special interest groups. Don't forget the baby boomer generation ended in 1964 that was 47 years ago, most of the issues surrounding these deficits have happened under the post baby boomer watch. No baby boomer or senior citizen thinks health care or ss should end after we are done collection it. politicians have included reducing or illiminating these programs to restructure the debt that they have created for the people. think twice before casting stones.
If you look specifically at Republicans, they are fighting to keep it for them self only. I do agree with you though that most of the elderly are fighting to keep Medicare.
Why is it you seem to think the baby boomers are the only ones crying for defunding health care? or that this is a condition in which all the baby boomers are living? Correct me if Ive read your post wrong please, but broad generalizations targeting one group of people isn't going to get anyone anywhere, not to mention this whole sub-thread is off topic, but w/e.... Ill leave Topic considerations for the Mods....
Falcus you are very misinformed, the elderly (baby boomers) are the ones who are fighting to keep medicare, medicaid, and social security afloat. The funds for those programs were raided by politicians special interest groups. Don't forget the baby boomer generation ended in 1964 that was 47 years ago, most of the issues surrounding these deficits have happened under the post baby boomer watch, think twice before casting stones.
Misinformed in reading your post, I said I wasn't up to scratch on the issue itself, which was why I asked for corrections if I made a mistake ^^. Thank you for clarifying. and my point still stands. The Baby boomers are just as diverse a group as any other. Next, there are people much older then the Baby Boomers drawing Medicare, Medicaid, and SS, as well as many much younger. Finally, I would only find cutting Medical services to a group of people that had come to rely on it acceptable if there was an alternative already in place. Or if you were willing to give up something of equivalent value to your person.
Sorry it was tr289 that this reply was directed at.
It's was a blanket statement but a true one.
As for the Baby Boomers crying about de-funding health care or Medicare... They really are the only ones calling for it. That and the Paul fanatics. The younger generations for the most part want SS and Medicare.
Where did you read that? Why would the Elderly/Baby boomers, want to defund health care or Medicare, most of them are of age to use the benefits right now. Why would anyone want to de-fund something that they have been paying for out of their paychecks for dozens of years and then when it comes to use it, it's no thanks........ I don't think so!
Ill admit, Im really not up to date on this particular issue, but honestly, Id be careful with the broad generalizations. Are you even aware that the Baby Boomer Generation is just as split and divided on as many issues as any other generation? Go Read an AARP magazine sometime..... There are many other examples of division in beliefs amongst that age group...... as there are with any other age group....
They are split on a lot of issues but the majority of Baby Boomers are your typical Fox News , Glenn Beck, Billo "the Perv" drones. I don't like using generalizations to often but in this case it is warranted.
And you got this far reaching generational piece of insight where exactly?
Ive met a fair share of Baby Boomers.... and Some have fit that description.... Many more haven't though..... Admittedly, I live in Western Washington which has long been considered more "liberal" then Fox news... but still....
Sell out as soon as possible. It worked for us and now you're stuck with our mess.
"Wrecker", what are you wrecking now?
Wisdom, insight? From the hippies of the 60s? That's the last thing we need...
So did you fail history, is that why you have a disdain for it?
Ha, no. I passed history and sociology that's why I have disdain for the idea.
So, you learned nothing?
And, you would suggest to others to not take the path you did?
Is that why you have disdain for others ideas (not yours)?
I learned more than you apparently. Like how the Hippies were a failure in the 60s. Caused violence, riots, and deaths. The "sit-ins" caused any new building built in the 60s to be riot proof. The "communes" were absolute failures. The hippies of the 60s wanted to change the world but all they did was smoke dope.
Ever hear about generalizing or stereotyping. I think your there Mr. Superman.
Yep, I have. But I am simply talking about the results of the movement. The last thing about smoking dope is just a line from South Park...
PS: you're*
Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.
The 60s was a time when the Anti-War Movement was in full throttle. Our government jerked us into a pointless and tragic war. We were told by them, the rationale, it was the domino theory. Then we had the Gulf of Tonkin incident as the catalyst where our government claimed we were attacked (which now we know we weren't). And, after that, we were all in. That's how it got sold to America and most bought into it. You know, commies everywhere crap, McCarthyism rampant everywhere.
Well, yeah, they were called hippies, irrelevant, confused, silly, wrong, unpatriotic, treasonous, dopers, smelly, unwashed, you get the point.
But, wait, what happened.
What really happened was the pressure was put on the government for a bad War, and began to realize that history was not going to be kind to those lies we were fed to go there. The result was not going to be good and in waning years they knew it.
Nixon was facing impeachment for being a crook and liar. He resigned in !974. Becuase of this, the protests, and the good sense Of President Ford not disgrace our country any more, we got the hell and let that place fall. I remember it like yesterday.
And none us ever forgot about it. We couldn't we knew friends who died there. Your right the government is always stronger than us, many went to that hell hole because they didn't want jail time. They weren't strong enough to resist and they died for that in the wrong place. I have great respect for them all. It mattered, they mattered, and it still matters. We continue to fight because madness still continues to this day. We got lied into another War just recently. Iraq.
This history does, it repeats, and repeats, until enough stand up. I'm standing up and I've been standing up for a long time. I'm realistic and understand this, but if I was the only one, so be it, I will stand for what I believe to be right, it doesn't make me irrelevant.
Nobody is right if everybody's wrong. History is replete with this problem.
The Vietnam War now lives undeniably in our collective history as a completely horrendous disaster. The dominoes never fell, so the world went on pretty as it did before. That War made it clear for all future generations that some Wars are senseless. (see the documentary the Fog of War, McNamara explains this well, he was Sec of Defense during the War. He really let's us behind the curtain on this one.)
I understand that most forgot about it and few like me still know the real story or care to research or read it. That and the history books which most find too boring to read have the story and it will hundreds of years from now for another generation to know what went down. It's all there for all to see if they want to or not. And someday we'll join in some written pages as we too become history.
So, does it matter, make a difference?
It does only if your very life does. If you live and breathe on this planet, in my view, you matter, and it does matter what your doing, saying, and how your viewing this world. We have look inside ourselves most of the time for the big answers. But it takes understanding. We experience this life to understand something we've come here for. It is for us to decide what that is.
Good Luck with yours. Peace!