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Forum Post: Neoliberalism: 30 fucking years.

Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 28, 2011, 2:22 a.m. EST by looselyhuman (3117)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

http://www.readersupportednews.org/opinion2/279-82/8120-thirty-years-of-unleashed-greed

And here's the Stiglitz article Scheer mentions:

http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-201105

Everyone needs to read. Then stop blaming liberals and Keynes, please. We haven't had the reins for 30 years. Obama is just another neoliberal like every president since Reagan.

Update:

This thread has terribly agitated a wee troll - the right-wing hateful type that doesn't know the difference between Keynes and Marx. He keeps acting as if he hasn't received an explanation for how Milton Friedman is a statist. He has ignored every reasonable explanation and is just obsessed with Naomi Klein, for whatever reason. I strongly recommend people do their own research into:

1.) Neoliberalism and its greatest advocate, Milton Friedman. 2.) How neoliberal policies are implemented, through coercion, by anti-democratic dictators like Pinochet, or anti-democratic globalist organizations like the IMF, or anti-democratic usurpation of the democratic process here at home. The widely accepted position is this: Neoliberalism is the usage of the state to force "free market" reforms (privatization, selective deregulation, etc) on desperate populations and governments, and maintain the ideal conditions (subsidies, tax breaks, bailouts, anti-labor laws, no welfare, etc) for large multinational corporations to extract wealth unfettered by any government protections for the welfare of the people.

Re-posting the definition:

ne·o·lib·er·al - Adjective: Relating to or denoting a modified form of liberalism tending to favor free-market capitalism.

It's basically Milton Friedman's free market Chicago/Austrian economics melded to the power of the state to force its implementation (domestically and internationally) down peoples' throats and also to prop-up "free market" powers like banks and large corporations.

It's the worst of both worlds. It's the underlying ideology that produces privatized profits and socialized losses. Another way I saw it put recently: "Under neoliberalism, the state tilts more acutely in favour of capital: tax-breaks and bailouts for the rich and harsh market discipline for others."

Supply-side/trickle-down economics fits within the umbrella.

Update 2: Chomsky agrees with my view on neoliberalism as statism:

It's been going on for some time, first in the South -- India, Brazil, South Africa,... -- and since Seattle primarily, the North has joined in. But all of this is some years back, in the South, decades (which is why the World Social Forum has been held in Brazil and India). The MST and Zapatistas are important components, but only components of much larger protests against the investor-rights version of international economic integration absurdly called "globalization." There's good literature on neoliberal globalization (the so-called "Washington consensus"). I've written about it too, for quite a few years. Profits over People to mention one of a number of books, and many articles, including talks at the WSF that have appeared here and there. The rules of the game were more or less formalized in the Uruguay round that set up the WTO, in NAFTA, and other such mislabelled "free trade agreements." They are a mixture of liberalization and protectionism, designed -- not surprisingly -- in the interests of the designers: mainly MNCs, financial institutions, the investor/lender class generally, the powerful states that cater to their interests, etc. The rights and interests of people are incidental. The extreme protectionism of the WTO and NAFTA goes far beyond earlier forms of protectionism. The outrageous patent principles, for example, designed to grant monopoly pricing privileges to immense private tyrannies, far in the future, and to stifle innovation and development, in their interests. Concentrated private power strongly resists exposure to market forces, unless it's confident it can win in the competition. That goes back centuries. There's a huge literature on this (I've written about it too) and can't summarize in a letter. Protectionist devices, such as those of NAFTA and the WTO, are only a fraction of the means by which the wealthy and powerful protect themselves from market forces. In fact, the core of the "new economy" is based on the principle that cost and risk should be socialized, and profit privatized (often after decades in the dynamic state sector). Just to take the obvious example, consider what you and I are now using: computers and the internet. Textbook examples of this process.

Also, more from Stiglitz: http://dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=14905

"This mixture of free-market rhetoric and government intervention has worked particularly badly for developing countries."


NEW: Please read Naomi Klein's brilliant article in The Nation:

http://www.thenation.com/article/164497/capitalism-vs-climate

133 Comments

133 Comments


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[-] 5 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

Ask the son or daughter of a former slave sold on the auction block if they think the unregulated market can do no harm.

[-] 1 points by redgar (55) 12 years ago

There is good regulation and there is bad regulation. The litmus test I would use is that a regulation is only worthwhile if it protects individuals from force and fraud. Much of the regulation we have today was written by the large corporations and only serve to create monopolies and market niches for themselves.

[-] 4 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 12 years ago

I'm glad to see someone else attempting to bring this term to light. A little clarification. Neoliberalism is not to be confused with social liberalism. Neo is a prefix meaning new, or revived in this case. Neoliberalism is primarily an economic philosophy. It is basically a revival of the liberal ECONOMIC policies that created the Great Depression. Its' goals are deregulation of just about everything, free trade,and the blind belief that "the market" knows best. Basically Lassez faire (hands off).

[-] 4 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 12 years ago

Laissez unfaire...

[-] 2 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

I wonder how long before the neoliberals are trotting out "laissez-faire" as a shiny new term that will fix everything?

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 12 years ago

They probably would, but I don't think Michele Bachman could pronounce it.

[-] 2 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

:o)

[-] 1 points by sudoname (1001) from Berkeley, CA 12 years ago

neoliberalism sure is a misnomer.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 12 years ago

It does confuse some.

[-] 1 points by sudoname (1001) from Berkeley, CA 12 years ago

btw thanks for the info, it was informative

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

Right on! Great post.

[-] 3 points by Idaltu (662) 12 years ago

Why pay attention to trolls. They are sort of like flies around a picnic and nothing more. Keep up the great posting.

[-] 3 points by vats (107) 12 years ago

be global and lose jobs, thats the motto of american comapnies

[-] 3 points by debndan (1145) 12 years ago

Wow, loosely human, while I tend to side with ya, on this I have to agree to disagree.

I read these articles and the main push is accurate, though there are 2 gapping holes that I call the reagan/clinton years.

Both Reagan and Clinton came in at a time when the economy was a basket case, and when they left average incomes and standards of living were rising, unemployment was down dramaticly.

Reagan broke up AT&T and his anti-trust dept was very busy.

Clinton raised taxes to balance budget and left with the largest surplus in history.

BOTH were kind men, both refused to demonize their opponents

Both forged bipartisan support, and achieved the common good.

The rich got richer, but so did the poor.

But then in both instances, the neocons took over and trashed the middle class, trashed our laws, oppressed liberty, and were generally the shits that those articles describe.

[-] 4 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

The key to understanding both Reagan and Clinton is neoliberalism, in the broader sense. Not a term widely used here - but the term neoconservative was adopted by the conservatives here that agreed with the Milton Friedman hardcore free market ideology called neoliberalism in the rest of the world (but also in "liberal" interventionism). Clinton just called it centrism and triangulation. For Reagan it was just Reaganomics (I don't think he actually called it anything).

They had growing economies that benefitted from the release of capital that followed deregulation, global free trade policies, and regressive tax reform. It was flying high without a net, and is why we're in so much trouble now. It's why wages have stagnated and wealth has been distributed upwards and jobs have been off-shored.

It was 30 years ago that neoliberalism became dominant, replacing the liberal consensus that united everyone from FDR to Ike, Kennedy to Nixon. The terminology is hard to accept here because it so goes against the embedded liberal/conservative paradigm, but that old order was tossed out by Reagan (preceded by Goldwater as an early wave) and it's been neoliberalism/neoconservativism in a dominant role ever since. Old-school liberals and paleoconservatives were swept out (who disagreed more on foreign policy and social issues more than anything, and even there.. McCarthy was a big divider though.)

I think this article goes into it pretty well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States

I recommend the whole article but especially focus on the sections "Liberal Republicans," "Nixon," and "End of the liberal consensus."

Listen, I'm sorry to bring Reagan into it. I know he's adored by neocons and paleocons alike. You have to ask yourself, though, was it his personality you liked, or his policies? Personality-wise, he was pretty paleo, and I loved him too as a kid. Policy-wise, besides AT&T, he ended unions as a meaningful bastion of middle class prosperity, implemented regressive new taxes and tossed out progressive old ones (supply-side economics - Friedman style), and destroyed the name of Keynes by wild deficit spending (military, tax cuts) during economic boom years, when we should have been paying down the debt. He ushered in the modern practice of deficit spending when its not needed, and screaming "deficits" when it is, all while racking up a huge debt across business cycles.

PS - I was angry when I created the post, and I apologize for my language.

[-] 3 points by debndan (1145) 12 years ago

LOL, no need to apologies, I get cussing mad too when I see what's been happening.

Also that was a very good link, and true to history. I just view from a different context. I accept a premise that Reagan and Clinton were basically good people that cared for their fellow man, and did what they thought was right.

I put them in a different catagory is all. And people in general benifitted from their policies.

But I digress, I agree that the neocons and neolibs are one and the same. And would go further that they are immoral and evil.

And as a paleoconservative, I do feel an affinity to classical liberalism, I can see the need for us to work together to put back together the humpty dumpty of the new deal and eisenhower republicanism.

But I think it will mean locking up alot of criminals in corps, banks, and gov't. And that they have no intentions to go quietly.

[-] 3 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

Can't disagree with any of this. Let's get back to having minor disagreements about the scale of our investment in the American people, instead of having to defend a moral society from these extremists that have left us bankrupt in every possible way.

[-] 2 points by debndan (1145) 12 years ago

Agreed, also look at the forum post: why we all occupy wall street.

Hope we can agree to that as well.

[-] 2 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 12 years ago

Thank you - well written and packed with information.

[-] 2 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

Thanks - that's high praise, coming from you.

[-] 2 points by Steve15 (385) 12 years ago

Perfect! Thank you for this rant

[-] 2 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

My pleasure :)

[-] 1 points by demonspawn79 (186) 12 years ago

Both Reagan and Clinton were only filling up the war chest for the next president that came along. Both presidents were succeeded by two of the most bloodthirsty war mongers the U.S. and the world has ever seen. You think that wasn't all planned years in advance?

[-] 3 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

Read you trolls.

[-] 2 points by larrysummers (5) 12 years ago

here's the problem;

"The central irony of financial crisis is that while it is caused by too much confidence, too much borrowing and lending and too much spending, it can only be resolved with more confidence, more borrowing and lending, and more spending."

Larry Summers

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

the first article that you had sent to weeicemon brought these quotes to mind: When we hang the capitalists they will sell us the rope. Stalin The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them--- Lenin It would be funny if i didn't live in so said capitalist nation. the second article you sent to Friedman's bitch made me remember it was Greenspan who spoke about irrational exuberance instead of working the switch which probably allowed it to be broken, meaning interest rates are headed to zero. the fed can no longer effect inflation.

[-] 3 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

Yeah, without fiscal stimulus we're in real trouble. Sure would be a good opportunity to catch up with China on alternative energy. Not to mention fix our trade policy...

[-] 2 points by WatTyler (263) 12 years ago

Sounds right. Thank you. I think may be one of the more important things I have read.

[-] 2 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

Thanks, that's great to hear.

[-] 2 points by thorsteinveblen (5) 12 years ago

does anyone else see illegal immigration as a neoliberal tool to drive down wages

[-] 2 points by marcec (22) from Honolulu, HI 12 years ago

Neoliberal is just a nice way of saying corporatist fascist. We have been slowly sliding down that path since WW2 and we failed to demobilize the military-industrial complex. We took large steps forward in this direction with the assassination of Kennedy, then with Reagan taking office.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 12 years ago

Thank you for the letter. I will look into it for sure.

[-] 1 points by StevenRoyal (490) from Dania Beach, FL 12 years ago

Ayn Rand & Greenspan part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W8EVczrTyg

[-] 1 points by logorob (9) from Toronto, ON 12 years ago

Afraid not... the problem has been brewing since at LEAST the early 1900s.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8484911570371055528

I would argue it goes back much further into the founding of America during which the founding fathers attempted to escape the same banking grip that was strangling Britain.

This problem is excessively deep and encompasses far more than just the financial industry in the modern day. The common man is utterly ignorant of these problems for good reason.. THE SYSTEM IS DESIGNED TO KEEP US FIGHTING EACH OTHER AND IGNORING THE TRUE PROBLEMS!

We need to drop the social issues that are a result of a corrupted and disturbingly all-encompassing conspiracy to rob the common man of the sweat of his own brow. We cannot solve these social concerns such as multiculturalism, feminism, and homosexual rights until we have solved the problem of the elite oppressing the common.

Once we have thrust these corrupt overlords from their seats of power we can slowly begin to let the wounds that they created heal through intelligent discussion with rational and logical government.

[-] 1 points by Howtodoit (1232) 12 years ago
[-] 1 points by stray (219) from Philadelphia, PA 12 years ago

The only way to fix it is to go back to the root of the problem. Unfortunately it goes that far back and then some.

[-] 1 points by PandaMe73 (303) from Oakland, CA 12 years ago

Thanks :)

[-] 0 points by joekoloco (0) 12 years ago

Classic liberalism is the original economic system of early U.S.A.The difference with Neo liberalism is how the individual is sacrificed and destroyed.An example would be the fate of Bernie Madoff compared to Goldman Sachs,Bank America,Moodys,Wells Fargo ond so forth.In the security fraud cases,GS,BAC,WF,pleaded no contest paid large fines ,no officers were convicted or have to worry about doing time.Their Models of operation are intact,no changes in regulation.Madoff on the other hand as the individual is completely destroyed.I don't pity him for his crimes just to point out the contrast guilty of the same thing Fraud.The relationship the big players have with government may play a role in that they sell the Gov Bonds that support the welfare state and War State,they launder the drug money which then props up the gov pension funds.Its a special relationship inverted fascism.Neo Liberalism has been initiated in every country that has signed onto WTO globalization scheme.They all pick and chose aspects of it and lays on top of the U.S. political government as it does Communist China.In fact even better on communist template.Central command as it is our politicians would love to command the banks to lend money and they do it or build a city and put people to work.In the same token they also command austerity when needed ,rationing of resources,equal poverty so all get an education even if it means stay in school /concentration camp for 20yrs so the unemployment rate is low.I think this protest is good but if its focused on more collectivist programs to quell the rightful outrage of protesters I think the tables will be turned and the Government /Banks/Feds will give the people what they want austerity disguised as some form of communism.In any case the individual will forced into the collective and doomed.

[-] 0 points by onepeople (49) 12 years ago

You think 30 years is bad. Try going 78.

[-] -1 points by beardy (282) 12 years ago

you do realize that keynesian economics is corporatism right?

any instance where the government can pick and choose winners in the market we will have crony capitalism / corporatism that we have today.

The keynesian economic system that you wish to have is a pipedream. As soon as you involve people in government, you are at their mercy and thus have tyranny.

[-] 2 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

You do realize that corporatism was a microeconomic practice that involved public/private cooperative control of all industry, right? Keynes as applied is solely a macroeconomic theory that has nothing to do with the economic mix, regulations, bailouts, etc. Anything beyond countercyclical monetary and fiscal stimulus is not Keynes, but all of these things are the Austrian caricature of Keynes the boogeyman. Good day.

[-] 1 points by beardy (282) 12 years ago

Doesn't matter what Keynes's original intentions are, the bastardized theories are what we have today and are what caused this mess.

[-] 2 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

You have no clue. It's NEOLIBERAL theories that have caused this mess. Ones favoring tax cuts, and trickle-down, and free market discipline for the 99%, and privatization of government, etc - all at the point of a political gun.

[-] 1 points by beardy (282) 12 years ago

No, I do have a clue. Both parties kowtow to special interests. Corporatism and decades of idiotic foreign policy are what has caused this mess.

We've never had true austrian economics either. Not even under Reagan.

[-] 2 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

We never will. Libertarian politics and Austrian free market rhetoric serves to provide austerity for the vulnerable, and the "liberty" for the powerful to own everything, including government. That is neoliberalism in its essence. Libertarian politics only strengthens its hand because market forces ally with government to impose "free" markets - meaning savage attacks on all things "socialist," especially in the midst of crises. That's what's happening here, in Greece, everywhere.

Pinochet was the perfect example, as is the IMF, and the screaming of "deficits" and "free markets" and "liberty" by the right, as we speak. Will any of that translate into corporate austerity? Into slowing of the redistribution of wealth upwards? Into allowing big banks to fail? Into liberty for the people from tyranny private? No. This is why libertarians are the perfect tool for the Kochs and their ilk. And why Friedman and Hayek and Pinochet were a perfect match. It is libertarian and statist all at once - the worst of both worlds.

[-] 1 points by beardy (282) 12 years ago

You think what is happening in Greece is the product of "neoliberalism"?

Their entire culture is predicated on the lie that you can get a government job and be set for life. As such Greece was ripped off by those at the top.

The other thing I love about progressivism, is how you talk about ethical issues (the poor, sick, homeless etc) and extol virtues (providing for the poor, health care for the sick, shelter for the homeless) but then state that it is the government who will do these things at the expense of others and not of yourself. You would force others to do good deeds at the threat of violence if need be.

Freedom is not simple and clean. It is messy and requires that people make choices for themselves and act ethically towards others. However, as difficult as that is, I would take freedom over the tyranny you prescribe any day.

[-] 2 points by looselyhuman (3117) 12 years ago

Just look at this google search: http://www.google.com/search?q=greece+neoliberalism

Also, us American progressives are the socialist devils that will coerce/force you into helping, blah, blah, blah. Maybe, perhaps, spend a few minutes watching this excellent TED lecture about inequality in all the developed nations. Please, hate me, never admit anything, remain as hardly opposed to me as you are - but watch this: http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html

PS - the very first link from that google search is golden: http://www.opednews.com/articles/Greece-s-debt-The-Hypocri-by-Nicolas-Mottas-091218-614.html

[-] -1 points by uslynx81 (203) 12 years ago

I do agree that people should do more home work but they won't. After reading your links, which most will comment with out even reading what you have linked, I have to disagree. Free Market/Austrian economics have not been used here at all. However China is and will bring us down just as we did the Soviet Union. Unions are bad and are new, not old. Henry Ford paid the best wages, Produced the best product, For the cheapest price. He was able to do this because we had the smallest government and business was pretty much unregulated and no unions. Unions are only good for the people you pay to lobby for you. You people are so mislead. I feel sorry for us all. When we wake up in an America where we have to stand in line for food, You will blame the solution to the problem for the problem and turn to the cause of the problem for the solution. I would suggest reading -How an Economy Grows and Why it Crashes - but you won't and you will think free-markets cause the problems and nothing will change. 1971 we came off the gold standard - This was the start of the end. In a Free Market if you ran out of money and capital you would fail. There are no bail outs in free markets or Austrian economics that would work. Austrian Economics teaches the market decides the interest rates not the government which they do now also the banks don't get free money from the government as they do now - This is all Keynes thinking that central planing is needed at the "Macro" level of the economy and intervention is needed at times. Which is exact opposite of what needs to happen.

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 12 years ago

You trivialize and distort the history of the labor movement. Henry Ford did voluntarily double the pay for his workers. The motivation for this move was to decrease the massive turnover rate F.M.C . was experiencing. It was also a defensive move because organized labor was breathing down his neck. Without the past influence of organized labor, we would not look much different from China in terms of pay rates and working conditions. In fact if you look at conditions in the "Robber Baron" sweat shop era, they were much like China is today.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

that is a rational argument. But come on can't you think of something new. You have to agree that our 30 years of prosperity was because of the exploitation of others. And i don't mean Americans. I mean all those nations over sea we allowed corporate, carte blanche authority.Now you can say american corporate power will be benevolent to us, But my self interests won't allow me to take the chance. Also, the Ford era was not all prosperity and tulips.

[-] 0 points by uslynx81 (203) 12 years ago

Economics is made out to be more then it should be and is not complicated at all, at any level. Now corporate America only gets away with the things it does because they own most of our government. Its not what you know, its who you know. Also the Ford era wasn't all that but it did raise the standard of living for all. People fail to really look at how well even the poor people in this country really live. I have an economics degree and it wasn't until I read that book did I truly start to understand economics.

[-] 3 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

Those multi nationals would have been able to keep their position if they had not become so greedy. The sad part is that if the unemployment rate was not so high this digital revolution would have never been conceived. There are a plethora of highly intelligent individuals not able to get a job, and they are utilizing their time learning, engaging and being politically active. Though there is a long way to go, I suggest every person who is not happy with the direction we are going to become informed. When I say informed, I don’t mean find your favorite pundit and hang on his every word. Democracy is harder work than any job I have ever had. People make intelligent arguments all the time, but when those you perceive to be intelligent vote differently than they speak, the perceiver of intelligence is the one who suffers. There are many forms of information. As a student of propaganda, being I studied Journalism, I know that most information is as bad for the viewer as crack cocaine is for the user. Although most dot com sites are not crooked, it is more informative to get information from dot gov or dot org sites. If an organization is helpful to a community, would it not make more sense that their information is also more helpful. The opposite of this should hold true also. The prosperity of the last thirty years—if you happened to be privy to it—was mostly a bribe. While the powers that be tortured, maimed and exploited people of other nations under the banner of market fundamentalism, we were the dumping ground for all the over production that unregulated markets produce. Those days are coming to an end. There are two schools of thought being haled by pundits and policy makers throughout the ‘States. One is to neuter the social safety net in order to stimulate growth. Now I know it seem fairest to get rid of a government that allowed our current condition, but a dismantled social safety net will destroy the middle class. Even though I have never been part of that class, I know that a degenerate middle class is a pre-courser to a failed state. The other argument you should be able to find is one that espouses Keynesian economics. I can only tell you what I believe about the situation, but I implore you to find the truth yourself. Get your eyes out of Facebook and put them into a real book. Maul over both arguments and pick the one that you believe will suit your interests. Democracy is not a spectator sport even if you can’t vote. When people in your social economic bracket attempt to convince you of something that does not strengthen your interests, hold them accountable. Libertarian economic philosophy is as pie-in-the-sky bull shit as socialism. They both espouse a utopia that has never existed. When the “gubment” gets out of the way, a power vacuum is created. Who do you think will fill it?

[-] 4 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 12 years ago

Good post. Quote of the day; Get your eyes out of Facebook and put them into a real book".

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

How can you can state, "didn't truly have an understanding of economics", and at the same time state "I have an economics degree?" And also "economics is not complicated", yet "didn't truly understand economics". You trip over your own contradictions.

And some people don't fail to look at how the poor people live, because some people experience it, and might take issue with your words.

Someone else said something along these lines about Free Markets. "go back and ask a slave if they thought unregulated Free Markets were good to them"

Bet they wished they had workers unions.

[-] -2 points by VindicatedVigilante (176) from Fort Worth, TX 12 years ago

BS! Keynesian crony-capitalism is the issue here!