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Forum Post: Has ows failed

Posted 5 years ago on Oct. 24, 2012, 12:17 a.m. EST by futervest (-1)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

If OWS is to succeed in anything, It must move forward, and take action. Without action there can be no hope of a better tomorrow. Action means If you want something to change you must take sides. Not voting will only keep the problem in power. 10,000,000 3rd party votes will send a clear and loud message that cannot be ignored, And will Be one step closer to all our hopes and dreams. That is 10,000,000 votes that the powers that be will not get. When The speaker of the house gets on world wide tv and laughs in your face and tells you to go home get a shower and a job, you don’t just sit idly buy. But none of this is occupy wall streets policy. So they have already failed. And all the protests in the world will not help.



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[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 5 years ago

To ask "has OWS failed" , you have to ask " failed at what"
with all of the feel good, intellectual exercises, in stead of real goals to achive ( or fail at ) we could not and will not succeed

one good approach would be to acknowledge that political action is the only way to get ANYTHING DONE - here are a few GOALS & ISSUES to do something about

▬►W T F U

▬►Proof : republiclan voting machine fraud in OHIO
yes – I know these are long but if you want to know what can happen
in Ohio and elsewhere – please WATCH

▬►P = A

A took social security payments
P took social security payments
A thought a woman president was unthinkable
A admired & revered child killer william hickman
P admired & recered A
A explains the morality of selfishness
P explains the morality of capitalism

▬►Florida insanity

▬►To PROSECUTE Voter Suppression: 18 U.S.C. § 241 : US Code - Section 241: Conspiracy against rights If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

▬►OWS Working Group http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

▬►Electoral College Reform – convert to popular vote - easily http://electoral-college.org/ Under the National Popular Vote bill, all of the state’s electoral votes would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. The bill would take effect only when enacted by states possessing a majority of the electoral votes (270 of 538).


[-] 1 points by gsw (3143) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 5 years ago

If it did fail it was in lacking one theme or message, (beyond occupy wall street) what Ows is for in a couple words


OWS = Anti corruption

[-] 2 points by Shule (2638) 5 years ago

Will I be glad when this stupid election is over, so that we can get back to business.

[-] -2 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

Things will settle down a few weeks after the election and then there will be about a one year window of opportunity. Then it's back to the election cycle.

[-] -2 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 years ago

I'm a little confused by all these different websites and organisations. We need one thing that we can all stand on if we want to be united as one. One website that we can all point at.

I never really thought occupy was going to last very long as it was just because of its name. It's a perfect name for protesting and creating awareness, but not for being one thing, an official champion.

If we are going to create an official champion of the people that can challenge the corruption in our corporate government, it absolutely has to be called something appropriate that we can live with.

Coalition Of United Rights, or something. Does this make sense? The government has cool names for everything because it's effective to have a name that clearly describes what something is.

[-] 0 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 years ago

Wait, if you don't like this idea it'd help me out if you talked about it. If occupy is trying to get people to unite, i think it needs to be as simple as possible. The mass of people who are stuck in their daily happening need it to be simple. What exactly is occupy doing right now?

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 5 years ago

What exactly is occupy doing right now?
I can speak for MYSELF - I am working with our OWS WG to get money out of politics
does that sound like something worh working on?
will you help us?

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 years ago

If a raised by wolves math nut could help it sounds good.

What's the information? Is there a website?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 5 years ago

70+ videos & 40+ documents
comments & feedback TO that website appreciated

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 years ago

Now don't get me wrong, but this is my point.

Most people these days are cought in the routine of their daily life. They don't read anything longer than a paragraph, if that. And very importantly, most people are not indulging in politics. They are far too impressed with being alive and all they want to do is enjoy it.

Every group is definitely doing something good. I'm not at all trying to say we shouldn't do the physical things we can do to help. But the loosing battle i'm talking about is the mass, and in that regard each group is its own dead end, just another thing on the internet disconnected from any other. A messy room of information, added to the armada.

But it's not an armada. It's chaos. It's unfocused. It's too many people talking at once and it's not anything the mass can get a firm grip on. If we want to get through to the mass we absolutely need one official thing that we can all stand on and point at.

Ask anyone in marketing, the name of something is probably the most important part. Occupy is a great name for a protest and spreading awareness, but not for being seen as a permanant structure to rely on. Occupy needs to continue but it also really needs to give birth.

If we are serious about connecting each other in a way that can demand a response from the people in power, we need to be standing together on one thing, simple enough for the mass to discover, focused enough to be loud and clear, and most importly official enough to be indisputable.

I just don't see anything else changing the minds of those people who own the big guns. It's like we're throwing sticks at a brick wall instead of building a battering ram. Meanwhile our planet is having the life sucked out of it. When is too late? "There is nothing in the desert, and no man needs nothing."

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 5 years ago

80% of Americans want that amendment - and if OWS gets their act off of theory - they can help get it done

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 years ago

I'm sorry because i don't know a lot about the political system. I actually don't know a single person who does. If you don't mind, what exactly has to happen for this to pass?

It just seems as though some people have power and everything else is a puppet show to keep us feeling a sense of accomplishment. And if this amendment passes would the government still be vulnerable to money and intimidation on a person to person level?

What about schools and colleges which are pretty much in every town? One phone call or email leads to another? Could you form a network of clubs to put students talking it up on every street?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 5 years ago

EVERYTHING is detailed about this amendment on our OWS web site
we have 70+ videos & 40+ documents on what to do & why
there are around 100 people in congress who ALREADY support this

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 years ago

Alright i looked it up. You need 3/4 of state legislatures, basically.

"An amendment is the hardest thing to pass in the U.S. government."

This thread is talking about how we're failing. I'm trying desperately to point out that we need to unite ourselves better. We need to create a more conclusive platform. This amendment sounds like it would help a lot but how are you going to reach enough people? Without something so utterly legitimate, dernier cri, that the mass can pick up on as easily as google, it's going to be hard, if not impossible.

I'm not trying to sound hopeless. I'll be stoked if this works out, and i'll do everything i can to let people know and send them that link. I'll be putting it as a main feature on my website, but that's only about 10 fickle people per month.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 5 years ago

Thank you for spreading the word!

sadly, I have been to hundreds of OWS meetings bogged down with concensus & procedure & personalities & punctuation & philosophy

as you point out, we need a goal & a direction
no matter what you think of the tea potty - they succeeded in crushing the progressive movement in Washington - not by marching with signs & tea bags, but by VOTING

If you are near NYC, please come to our meetings. We have been working on this for a year -
with many mistakes that had delayed us running in the wrong direction. I could write1000 words on our stumbles, but briefly- polls clearly show the people (80%) agree with the amendment to end CU & CP
The key are the politicians - 100 in Wahington are co-signers on amendment bills
there are so many obstructionist Rs in the House that we have concluded that the only route to success is
getting more pro-amendment candidates elected
we are presently working with our sister group Occupy Staten Island and have signed up nearly 1000 people who promise to vote for pro-amendment candidate in the NY CD #11

We can do what 80% of Americans say they want
We can do what 1,900,000 Americans signed
We can do what 363 local & state resolutions call for
We can do what 1,309 American mayors endorsed

Virtually every OWS goal –
jobs, taxes, government honesty, energy, environment, economy
all go back to EXACTLY one place

And there is EXACTLY one first step:


A constitutional amendment to
Overturn Citizens United and Corporate Personhood


▬► http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com ◄▬


For a complete analysis of the amendment issue,

and the text of all amendments,
and our comparison of all of the amendments,
and the Citizens United case transcript,
and the Citizens United decision,
and the Buckley decision,
and analysis of corporate personhood,
and analysis of Article III,
and the ABC News poll on CU / CP,
and the PFAW poll on CU / CP,
and 70+ videos on CU / CP from

Chomsky, Hedges, Witchcraft, Reich,
Warren, Lessig, Hartmann, Maher, Sanders, Hightower, etc.

and our voting bloc petition & plan.

no password or signup

please email us on any questions or comment on our site!

JOIN our OWS Working Group:

Wednesdays 5:30-7:30PM @ 60 Wall St – The Atrium

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 years ago

I'm still wondering about the original topic. Is Occupy not building enough support? I'm concerned because i'm the only person i know paying attention to it. There is a mass of people who are so unsure about taking chances they will just trust whatever is happening.

Most people tend to go from coffee, to work, to bars and without a second to spare except for their friends who are doing the exact same thing. Most people want better things to happen but they don't have enough time to figure out anything that isn't effortless.

How are we going to make it so easy for them?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 5 years ago

Honestly, I have been in NYC OWS for 12 months in numerous WG
and I can give you my OPINION only

many people came for the comraderie - not to get it done - and left
many people came for the marching - not to get it done - and left
many people came for the signs - not to get it done - and left
many people came for the philosophy - not to get it done - and left
many people came for the ability to spread their theories - not to get it done - and left

Right now, I am in three similar groups - working on getting money out of politics
one has wasted months on theories and concepts and BS
the other two have recruited hundreds of people to vote for pro-amendment candidates

again - sorry to sound like a pompous know it all - but my original WG failed at trying to get the amendment ball rolling for A YEAR - and I accept part of the blame but OWS consensus & red tape is mostly to blame &
becaue so many ( the people who left ) wanted to be good liitle independents & anarchists and refused to believe that the only route to success is political power.

Why do our gun laws promote murder - political power
Why did the voting right act pass - political power
Why did prohibition pass - political power
Why did the tea potty stall anything progressive - political power

...................................................................WE WILL HAVE TAKEN THE FIRST STEP

............................ http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33488) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Point out the fact to them - that the way things are going - outsourcing etc etc etc - that it may not be to long before their routine = coffee work bar repeat - is gonna be disrupted - is gonna be gone - as a failing economy will reach a point of total collapse - sooner or later.

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 years ago

I have this chewing thing in my mind that political action is playing a game they've already won. I feel like they can put on a show while pulling any string. That we need to stop playing this game of theirs.

[-] 1 points by MikeMcKeel (-109) 5 years ago

Without something so utterly legitimate, dernier cri, that the mass can pick up on as easily as google, it's going to be hard, if not impossible.

Especially at a time when OWS is focusing on conspiracy theories.

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 years ago

Dam. I can't reply to the post. I don't think we really need to talk about it though.

Those don't sound like supporters, they sound like purposeful complicators. They're probably corporate thugs on a mission to discredit the conversations here. It's a conspiracy ;)

Or maybe they're just frightened people.

For that matter i wouldn't even be surprised if OWS was some kind of counter maneuver to create a sense that we gave it our best shot. That's an elaborate puppet show but pretty effective.

Maybe conspiracy theories are a conspiracy to keep us overwhelmed and unfocused in the simple battle for equal rights.

Sometimes i think that the stray cats in this neighborhood are secretly ninjas in camouflage, but i try not to let that distract me form clipping my toenails.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 5 years ago

Mikey has been banned from this forum maybe a dozen times, bullfrogma. He's not indicative of the regulars here.

He's like a garden gnome. Too heavy to toss over the fence.

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 years ago

We're a conspiracy?

Wouldn't it count more like self defence?

[-] 1 points by MikeMcKeel (-109) 5 years ago

Do you believe in cone-head alien remains from Peru? Do you believe in Death/Torture squads that kill American citizens and replace them with look-alikes? Do you believe OWS is controlled by the Global Elite and uses Illuminati symbols in it's imagery?

These problems are what OWS supporters are talking about on this site.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 5 years ago

I felt OWS was simple and clear at one time. Then the politics crept in.

It will be interesting what happens to OWS after the elections. Whether the movement will fizzle out just like the anti-war movement four years ago.

[-] 0 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 5 years ago

Not only does it need to be as simple as possible but also as inclusive as possible. It also has to be a goal that will have an impact, and that ALL people believe will improve our country, our government, and our lives; in order for the majority to unite around it. I feel that that the one goal that ALL Americans of ALL political ideologies can agree on is that government should not be up for sale to the highest bidder as it is now.

Really, I don't care what it's called; our goal should be "Get Money Out" with a constitutional amendment ............... NOW !!



Personally I like the idea at this site, but it doesn't meet the above criteria (it's too big of a step for too many = fear):


[-] -1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

We just need a website thats organized like a typical website. I think someone here was working on it. Maybe Matt.

[-] -1 points by bensdad (8977) 5 years ago

what you call yourself is irrelevant
what you say is irrelevant
what you do is relevant

what are YOU DOING to further our cause ?

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 5 years ago

What you call yourself is relevant. What you say is relevant. Communication is doing something. Like corporate media trying to manipulate the mass, it is very relevant because this is our loosing battle, the mass. "Don't listen to fools, the mob rules."

TheRazor spoke about it somewhere else in this thread, "The people see OWS as people who dont want to work hard and want stuff given to them so they can smoke more pot."

But we know this is not the goal of ours; that our goal is to break through this monopoly which is raping the future, perverting the blood of our children for nothing more than an indulgence of temporary self and power.

We need a clear statement of this mission, a work in progress solution, a forum with catagories, and all of this in one place, one thing for everyone to stand on. One thing that the mass can discover, as simply as possible.

Similar to a new branch of government, to combat the corruption of government with the mind of all people. SparkyJP (above) says it well, "get money out."

Save the world movements which are scattered all over the internet can combine their power by pointing to one thing. Because while we are so fragmented, we will never be strong enough to stand against the landslide.

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3340) 5 years ago

What do you mean 'has OWS failed'? It just got started! What does 'the speaker of the house' know about anything? Why not try to encourage people instead of all the negativity?

[-] 1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

OWS has that youthful energy that's essential. They don't have the wisdom to know what's doable. Get money out of politics? Good luck with that. Stop this crazy droning? That could be done if we bitch about it enough. No more drones.

[-] 1 points by Ballard916 (7) from Cawker City, KS 5 years ago

Has occupied failed? Well that depends how you look at it. Did occupy quit, fade out or go home, did it spread across American and the world. As I remember occupy got stepped on, stepped on with combat boots. Occupy didn't fail, the United States of America did.

[-] 1 points by MikeMcKeel (-109) 5 years ago

I think Occupy failed in the sense that it did not reach it's objectives. It failed when it started to spread it's wings too broadly and wanted to be the ailment for every problem in the sun. It fractured it's own self. It lose the cohesive goals that unified all Occupy factions. Now it's a bunch a small initiatives all over the place without much connection between them. If you're going to make a protest against Wall Street, make it against Wall Street, not against the functioning of gay parades, the problems with homes, the problems with prisons, etc..

[-] 1 points by penguento (362) 5 years ago

OWS can only get a few dozen people to its demonstrations these days. I really don't think it's going to get ten million people to vote, or to do much of anything else either.


[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 5 years ago

People need to realize the two glaring differences between the Tea and Occupy- the biggest being the overall age difference.

We are talking about older, well established adults who have plenty of life experience vs young people who are probably going to school too, who are just starting to learn how life works and how to make things happen.

Throw in the all the funding the Tea got, and the next to nothing that Occupy got, and there you go. What do people expect?

I will say that the two major accomplishments of Occupy though is the working together of libertarians and progressives, which are looked as the extremes by each of the two mainstream parties.

Working together to address the issues that dont allow for any discussion of things- banking cartel and bought off politicians. They realized that if those two things aren't addressed, there is no point in talking about what to do with the FDA or SS. Doesnt matter. Because its going to be a stricly coportist solution with this system in that EVERYONE loses.

Getting people involved, and those people getting a real taste of what organizing is, is priceless. A group of leaders was developed this past year as a result of occupy. And they all have the could of/should of/would of to look back at in going forward.

Starting to mobilize young people, who have been asleep since Vietnam, in my opinion, is a huge accomplishment. Its something to build off of. Something had to get it started.


[-] 0 points by rickMoss (435) 5 years ago

OWS failed before it started. Being angry isn't enough to make succeed. There has to be a new vision, direction and a plan to mobilize toward that end. OWS has none of that. In order to take action you have no what, why and the ends of the action. Otherwise you are just a mindless mob. A mindless mob will not gain permanent support because a mindless mob is in no one’s best interest. I'm not a religious person but I believe this point to be true:

"Where there is no vision the people perish."

  • Proverb 29:18

The problems we face today or very many and very complex. Being Angry, voting and protesting simply won't fix the following:

“Sky rocketing debt, unemployment, underemployment, deficits, government failure, Economic systems failure, Financial systems failure, Market systems failure, Monetary systems failure, Social systems failure, Environmental systems failure, Ecosystems failure, corruption, greed, chronic recessions etc…” We need new vision for the United States and the rest of the world.


U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

Non U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.2” at ( http://SaveTheWorldNow.osixs.org )

How else can I say this? "We Are Free!"http://WeAreFree.osixs.org "Spread the News"

[-] 0 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

OWS doesn't need the dems but the dems might need OWS. Now that they've co-opted it what will they do with it?

[-] 1 points by penguento (362) 5 years ago

You'll notice that no Dems are pandering to OWS. That should tell you something. If they thought OWS was worth any votes they'd be lined up around the block schmoozing you. So, at best they think OWS is irrelevant. At worst, they think OWS is toxic, and any association with it will damage them. I rather expect it's the later.

[-] -1 points by podman73 (-652) 5 years ago

Use it to get elected and if it doesn't help them you will see how fast they dump it (already lots of proof of them backing away)



[-] 0 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

It didn't fail any more than the Tea Party.




[-] 0 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 5 years ago

And yet how many years later are Tea Party people-and those who were influenced by them, still actively working/connecting with other groups to affect change? Heard of FreePAC? FreePAC Dallas, FreePAC Orlando, FreePAC Illinois.....and growing.

[-] 1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

Would they be trying overturn Obamacare if it had come about under a republican administration?

[-] 0 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 5 years ago

You'd have to ask them. I can't imagine them accepting nationalized health care no matter who sponsored it. They've cleared out several Republican congressmen they didn't agree with already.

[-] 3 points by gsw (3143) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 5 years ago


In an extensive ABCNEWS/Washington Post poll, Americans by a 2-1 margin, 62-32 percent, prefer a universal health insurance program over the current employer-based system.

Republicans say that Americans don't want top-down government control of their health care. But what we have now is top-down corporate control of health care. Insurers, drugmakers, sellers of expensive equipment, hospital executives, labs, home-health-care services and others unnamed prosper by exploiting the chaos in our health care system.

They get other payers (be they private or government) to purchase $50 drugs when $10 drugs are just as effective. They make more money if patients have to be readmitted into the hospital. They profit from pushing surgery, when careful watching or less invasive therapy might do the trick at far lower cost and risk. They casually order CT scans without much thought to the expense or the patients' exposure to radiation.




[-] 1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 5 years ago

From the ABCnews article you linked to:

"That support, however, is conditional: It falls to fewer than four in 10 if it means a limited choice of doctors, or waiting lists for non-emergency treatments. "

Opinion pieces by individuals of any stripe don't qualify to me as representative of any whole group.

[-] 0 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

It's right around 60%. It would be very easy to have both public and private HC in the US. Give everyone Medicare and let the private sector consolidate and raise their prices for those that have the money and want to pay for a faster privately run system. Public and private HC are just different from eachother and they both have pluses and minuses.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 5 years ago

i do not like a two tier system - that ends up with a poor system for most of us and a good system for the wealthy. they would like to do the same thing to education and have to some extent already

[-] 2 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

I'd like to see Obamacare gone but it's not nationalized HC. It's a mandate and a giveaway to the insurance companies.

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 5 years ago

Either way, they don't want it. And according to the polls I've seen, neither do the majority of Americans. So it would seem that in this area, the Tea Party represents the majority of Americans better than the ones claiming they do.

[-] 0 points by MikeMcKeel (-109) 5 years ago

OWS has been dead for awhile now. It died when it lost focus and started protesting against everything under the sun.


[-] 0 points by futervest (-1) 5 years ago

ows does not get protesters because they have no direction no leadership and no goals. NO HOPE

[-] -1 points by TheRazor (-329) 5 years ago

This is a blueprint for real change that I advanced, but folls here are beyond hopeless.

1) Creation of a thrd party.

2) Increase the minimum wage

3) Tariffs to protect American labor.

4) Renounce all drugs

Instead we get stuff on fracking, global warming, my dentist ripped me off, anger against cops, support for public employee unions and none for private labor, ridiculous crap about mllionaire Noam Chomsky, etc.

Lets face it, OWS was simply a way to camp out, get laid and smoke pot.

Its pretty much a silly joke now, like the Flat Earth Society or those people who jump in icebound lakes in January.

The people see OWS as people who dont want to work hard and want stuff given to them so they can moke more pot.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3360) from New York, NY 5 years ago

Wow, did hell just freeze over?

You actually made a rational comment, some of which I can agree with.

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 5 years ago

"When the speaker of the house gets on world wide tv and laughs in your face and tells you to go home get a shower and a job, you don’t just sit idly by."


[-] -1 points by bensdad (8977) 5 years ago

messages can and will be ignored - just ask the tea potty
they stopped their silly messages and did NOT vote third party and
voted for candidates who would do what they wanted - grind America to a halt.
Third party votes will have as much effect as tea bags on a hat

Nader got 100,000 votes in Florida in 2000 &
we got bush-cheny-911-Iraq War-Roberts-Alito
but Nader got 100,000 votes - well done Ralph!

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 5 years ago

Instead of blaming the .05% of each city's population that actually participated, perhaps we should be looking at the other 98.5% who refuse to turn the tv off and get off the couch?

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 5 years ago

Last year when we all had great hopes for OWS nationally, we were watching on TV as OWS conducted Woodstock reenactments, dried sleeping bags and had standoffs with jacked up robocops, all void of any discernible or unified message or statement. And when we personally visited the camps, there was mostly homeless street people.

[-] -1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

people who went to protests did their part. It's the people like us who are stuck behind a computer for whatever reason that failed.

[-] -2 points by yobstreet (-575) 5 years ago

I might be mistaken, but for the most part I don't believe this forum is in any way representative of OWS.

[-] -2 points by bensdad (8977) 5 years ago

In stead of third party - what if we concentrate on electing people who can actually DO something - Tammy Duckworth, Alan Grayson, Elizabeth Warren who can help get rid of Citizens United

[-] -2 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 5 years ago

Not one of those you mentioned old do any such thing. You are simply a tool of the establishment. And a willing one at that. Sadly I seem to be the only one around here that understands that.

[-] -2 points by marvelpym (-184) 5 years ago

You mean vote for Democrats, right?

[-] 1 points by podman73 (-652) 5 years ago

Of course he does, he's one of the bigger dem not hacks on the site.

[-] -2 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

From what I've heard everything OWS has accomplished is at a regional level- nothing national. That's certainly better than nothing. This relentless high-jacking from dembots is hard to deal with. I'm sure there will be a sigh of relief when this damn election is over.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 5 years ago

As far as our accomplishments go: "It ain't over until it's over." Yogi Berra

Once the election is over: I will breathe the biggest sigh of relief. Keep in mind though the analysis of the election will probably take a couple more months. lol

[-] -2 points by penguento (362) 5 years ago

It's over, man. The NYC general assembly collapsed in disarray, arguments over money and fistfights in early spring. OWS couldn't even govern itself for a year, and its model of governance, and by extension its model of society are left discredited. Nobody out there really knows or cares what the remnants of OWS are doing, and nobody is doing anything that's going to make OWS relevant. The corpse still twitches now and again, but it's effectively dead. Big talk on this forum about changing the world isn't going to change that.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 5 years ago

None of the Great Struggles have been won by defeatists, rather they have become victorious by people who have PERSEVERED. All movements for social and/or economic justice have made mistakes too. There has never been one that has had a straight up-ward trajectory. One of the things that you have failed to take into account is the determination of the mostly young people in this movement whose future does not compute. These people are bright, very energetic and very determined.

OWS may not end up being a the major player in the eventual systemic change that will undoubtedly come, and if not, we will be able to take solace in the fact that we lit the flame, and i can assure you, that flame is not going out.

I do not follow what the general assembly has, or is doing, but i do know that the many affinity groups in OWS are alive, and well. They continue to organize, collaborate, educate, and reach out.

There is no doubt that the anarchical way that OWS is run is a cumbersome process made all the more difficult by people with big egos, and others who have infiltrated the movement.

I think it would be safe to say that most OWS supporters, including myself are not anarchists, however i for one also know that radicals and reformers have a long history of working well together in past struggles, as i believe they will with this one.

Am i disappointed that this movement isn't further along? Of course? I wish we could emulate what the citizens of Montreal, and cities all over Quebec did. That is exactly what we have to do, and until we do, we will never have the sea change we need. Anything less is unacceptable.


[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 5 years ago

The kindling flame is still burning under the massive log of peaceful revolution. It will take time to ignite, but once lit, it will not be quenched.

[-] 0 points by penguento (362) 5 years ago

You're offering up a model of society that doesn't reflect what people in this country actually want, and you're offering up a model of achieving it that is a failure. People don't buy it, and in the absence of some sea change in what you do and how you do it, they never will. And even if those things weren't true, no one here has any idea or plan at all for getting the necessary 150 or 200 million people on board that constitute the critical mass necessary for large-scale social change.

I'm not trying to sound flip, but I'm nearly 60 years old, and the leftist revolutionaries were saying what you're saying when I was young. And before that, they were saying it in the 50's. And the 40's. And the 30's. And all of those people, like you, are waiting for Godot.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 5 years ago

Let's see. People in this country don't want a fair share of the product of their labor. They don't want an equal voice in government. They don't want to stop endless wars.

That critical mass exists today. Once they realize they have the power to change the status quo, change will happen.

[-] 2 points by penguento (362) 5 years ago

What they don't want is socialism. Like it or not, the simple fact is that, given the opportunity to choose, most people in most places choose economic systems that give them greater opportunity for personal gain, even at the expense of some greater collective good. But even supposing that people will choose socialist solutions, they're not going to choose them until they are given a credible, workable solution. They will not choose a path that leads to chaos or anarchy.

OWS simply does not offer any credible, workable solution with which to accomplish anything. OWS cannot even govern itself. Its proposed governance model, that it was pitching with some arrogance, collapsed within a year, even though it was being implemented on only a very small, local scale. Do you really think that a hundred million people are going to look at that example and take a chance on it? Do you really think that a model that fails when implemented on that small scale can really be scaled up to govern a country the size of a continent and manage an economy the size of the US economy? I certainly don't, and outside of a few people here, no one else does either. So if you want to get some support from that critical mass of millions, I'd suggest getting out there and actually creating some economic institutions that successfully embody your principles and prove that those principles can really succeed in paying the bills. Until you do that, no one will buy in.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 5 years ago

The core message of Occupy, getting money out of politics, and a fair share into our own pockets is not socialism or a new model of governance. This does not require a massive change in government, but a wall of separation between government and business, and to collectively bargain for fair wages. A fair vote, and a fair wage is all we ask.

I would completely agree that those in Occupy who throw in dozens of other demands actually cripple any chance of accomplishing these two essential goals.

[-] 1 points by penguento (362) 5 years ago

My response is immediately below, under stevebol.

[-] 1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 5 years ago

I think I love you. :)

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5909) 5 years ago


The FreeDA Cooperative Employment Service is the 501(c)4 organization that would assess the skills of the unemployed individuals to patronize it and match them with a suggested cooperative business plan. Upon acceptance or rejection of the plan for an alternative plan, the FreeDA/CES would facilitate the crowdfunding of the new cooperative business. Of course, each municipality of cooperative communities should have their own branch of a nationwide Cooperative Credit Union to handle both cooperative and personal accounts. With the FreeDA Cooperative Employment Service and FreeDA Cooperative Credit Union established nationwide, the unemployed of each city would be consistently channeled into either newly or already established worker-owner cooperatives, modifying the economic well-being of society at a fundamental level.


[-] 1 points by penguento (362) 5 years ago

All of which is perfectly fine, but it rather glosses over the difficulties of getting any business going, socialist or otherwise.

I'd suggest that you try opening a business as a worker-owned cooperative. I think you'd find it to be a real eye-opener. It isn't by a long shot the sort of blissful workers' paradise that socialist writers seem to think it is.

I speak from experience, because I have both run businesses and because I am the nominal CEO of a completely socialist business in which all employees own an equal share of the business, and receive equal salaries and profit-shares. Getting any startup to actually make money and pay the bills is a formidable challenge under the best of circumstances, even if, as in our case, your colleagues are hand-picked, tested veterans. But ours is a special case: most people aren't interested in putting in the kind of hours necessary to get it up and running (At my business, we routinely put in 80-90 hours a week), and a good many people are perfectly content to be parasites if you're willing to let them (a problem we have also had). Lots of other folks are malcontents, whiners, and other undesirable and antisocial things that will also ruin your workers' paradise. We know this from experience also. And you'll quickly discover that the people who are willing to do the hard work that pays the bills and who are doing the creative things that grow the business very quickly start resenting the parasites and malcontents and whiners and expect to be paid a lot more.

There's nothing to stop people from doing these things on their own. One of the chief reasons people don't is that they're simply not interested in investing a gigantic amount of effort and all of their money into something that has a 75% chance of going bust. They'd rather work for the man, walk away from the cares of work at 5 o'clock, let somebody else worry about keeping the business running and collect a steady paycheck. And a high percentage of the people who think they want to will discover they were mistaken, and go back to regular employment.

[-] 0 points by podman73 (-652) 5 years ago

That kind of self reliance will fall on def ears around here. I advocated the same thing and was called a rep. Hack. It seems few here understand that owning and running a business is more than most on here could do successfully. And you are right when some people bust their butt and see lazy turds doing next to nothing and getting paid the same, of course they will bail (as they should).

[-] 0 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

OWS's biggest accomplishment might be that they didn't effect the outcome of this election. They got carried away with trying to be too organized at protests and completely ignored the internet.

[-] -1 points by penguento (362) 5 years ago

You might wish to have a talk with some of your colleagues, then. OWS protests everything from fracking and coal mining to Putin and Assad. But even in the get-the-money-out of politics realm, there's a lot of really silly talk. At one point, for example, it was touted that that solution to money and politics (and worker exploitation and everything else that's wrong with the world) was to limit businesses to 500 employees. Really? Guess you can't have a cruise ship or an airline then, because they both take a lot more than 500 employees. Things of that sort just make you look silly.

Beyond that, OWS has no cogent and meaningful proposed solution for anything. It simply rages against the machine, spouting very, very simplistic slogans (I guess this makes me a (r)epubicCON) as part of a naive morality play with a stock cast of horrible evil-doers and noble heroes. That may play well on the OWS web site, but it's really not playing well in the rest of the world. The issues are far more complex, and the players nowhere near so black-and-white, and most people realize this. And that's why OWS can't get any traction.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 5 years ago

Cherry picking a handfull of side issues proposed by a tiny minority within Occupy misrepresents Occupy's message. A common strawman argument.

The two core issues of Occupy, fair wages and a fair vote aren't complex at all. The solutions are simple.

First, restrict money donated to political candidates to an amount that both the rich and the poor can afford, including outside expenditures. This will prevent the advantage of political power taken by the rich man.

Second, raise the minimum wage incrementally over a period of years to match a percentage of GDP per capita, and require collective bargaining or other form of wage negotiation by all businesses on a yearly basis. This will prevent the advantage of economic power taken by the rich man.

[-] 2 points by penguento (362) 5 years ago

I don't think it's cherry picking at all. I follow OWS and this site pretty regularly, and I know what's here, and what OWS and all the people here are up to.

On the substance of your points, that's fine, and in at least some respects I agree with you. But the discussion on this site, and at OWS generally, is often confined to hurling rather juvenile insults and invective at supposed villains; and there is zero in the way of any attempt to turn these positions into meaningful discourse with the outside world or come up with a strategy for actually achieving something toward these ends. And meanwhile, the world sees the dopes and judges OWS accordingly. All that may seem petty and judgmental of me, but that is what the outside world sees of OWS. And as long as that's what the world sees, OWS will go absolutely nowhere.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 5 years ago

An offshoot is still hitting the news.



Contact: Devon Whitham; (562) 370-8411; devon@99Rise.org Guido Girgenti; (646) 249-6500; guido@99Rise.org

Students Demand Full Disclosure of All Secret Political Spending in Run Up to Most Expensive Election In History          

(New York, NY, October 24)—Alarmed by the billions of dollars of secret money flooding into the political system to influence voters this election cycle, three high school students sat in at JPMorgan Chase in lower Manhattan today, demanding full disclosure of the bank’s anonymous political expenditures. 

The students, who delivered a petition to the bank over three weeks ago articulating their demand, refused to leave the bank’s premises until the requested information was handed over to the public.  The bank instead chose to shut down the entire 60 floor building and have them arrested.        

“I’m risking arrest today because I’m fed up with the politics as usual,” said Emilie Hirsh, a high school senior at Eleanor Roosevelt High School.  “The way we finance elections is broken.  Both sides are dependent on the donations of corporations and the super-rich, and that means that their preferences take precedent over the needs of ordinary Americans like me, regardless of who ends up in office. 

I’m prepared to get arrested in hopes of inspiring other frustrated Americans to join me in pushing for change.”

[-] 1 points by penguento (362) 5 years ago

This sorta goes to my point. I'm personally all in favor of requiring full disclosure of campaign contributions; so a demonstration is fine. But did they get anything disclosed? Nope. They got arrested, and made no progress at all.

For that, you need to get a law passed. To get a law passed, you need to be know how that gets done, and to get somebody to sponsor it, and then you have to drum up enough political support to get the votes in the Congress to pass it.

For that, you have to be willing to engage in a dialogue with one or more politicians, and lots and lots of ordinary citizens who don't start out on your side. Otherwise no popular support and no political sponsorship.

For that, you have to be willing to engage the political system. If you're unwilling to engage the political system, you'll go nowhere. Politicians are not afraid of people who don't vote. They are very afraid of large, organized groups that can reliably deliver a bloc of votes on demand, and if you can organize one, they'll be remarkably receptive to your ideas.

Foregoing all of this in favor of a popular revolution is a complete waste of time. You'll never live to see the day.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 5 years ago

The system of grievances, and address in this country was broken some time ago.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 5 years ago

What direction would you like to see Occupy take?

[-] 2 points by penguento (362) 5 years ago
  1. Take the time to become really informed about the nuts and bolts of both issues and the legal and legislative process.

  2. Formulate a specific concept of what changes in campaign finance or labor law are required to facilitate the changes sought.

  3. Learn to advocate thoughtfully and intelligently -- and effectively -- for those changes. That includes engagement with people that disagree, and the willingness to negotiate with people you strongly disagree with. And stop the junior high school name-calling.

Generally, take an example from the NAACP and the civil rights campaign. It took decades of a very thoughtful, well-planned campaign with two fronts -- the marches and demonstrations we know so much about, combined with a very effective program of litigation and advocacy for legislative change. And note that in the demonstrations they never demonized anybody. It was all purely advocacy on behalf of justice, calling upon the better nature of everybody, including their opponents. But they also pushed very hard and very effectively in the courts and in the voting booth. Justice Thurgood Marshal made his bones in that litigation. And in the end, after many years, they inflicted the death of a thousand cuts on their opponents. They should be a model for anybody seeking social change.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 5 years ago

Agree completely.

The great difference between Occupy and the civil rights movement is that the blacks knew they were being discriminated against, while the majority of Americans are unaware that their political and economic rights have been continually eroded. They won't join in a battle against an enemy they think is their friend.

[-] 1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

Lol. I've seen plenty of slacker solutions posted here.

[-] -2 points by marvelpym (-184) 5 years ago

Fistfights? Reminds me of Monty Python's Life of Brian

Brothers! Brothers! We should be struggling together!

We are!

[-] 0 points by NVPHIL (664) 5 years ago

You got that right.

[-] -3 points by podman73 (-652) 5 years ago

Wow someone actually wants to talk about the 500 pound gorilla in the room!

[-] -3 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 5 years ago

We could use a website where discussions are catagorized.

[-] -3 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 5 years ago

Too many occupiers have never left the slavery of the party. They vigorously protest wall streets tyranny, but turn a blind eye to the tyranny of their slave masters.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 5 years ago

True, but the level of education that has happened between everyone has been incredible.

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 5 years ago

That's what confounds me the most, occupiers after learning of the corruption within their own party continuing to vote for it.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 5 years ago

It is, some of them wake up, others stick their heels further in the ground. I try to focus on the fact that SOME have been awoken.

I know so many people in Tampa who were going to vote for Obama a year ago that now would not even consider it. They realize there's difference, but they also understand that neither party will deliver the radical changes we need, and quickly, so they may as well contribute full time to the change they want to see.

[+] -5 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 5 years ago

OWS has changed nothing. It has done nothing for anyone. It is too rooted in sixties hippy stupidity. Drum circles. Organic gardens. Etc...

[-] 1 points by gsw (3143) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 5 years ago

we can get news on third parties and on iceland, things we may not heard of otherwise.

I hear about debates, and how people have united to do something positive, and even hear criticisms and new ideas.

Plus, we can hear how the 1 percent and plutocrats must be protested against, and we must vote in progressives.

I'm glad someone thought of that bumper sticker.

[-] -3 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 5 years ago

But news on third parties is readily available on the net. It doesn't take OWS to disseminate that info.

[-] 1 points by gsw (3143) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 5 years ago

but can hear some new news on debates, and such?

and even support occupy, when we occupy, and send money to the cause.

like the other day, I learned the pots and pans were effective, in scaring the government of a country, Iceland, into folding for positive change for people.

[-] -2 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 5 years ago

So you are going to "scare" the US government banging pots and pansZ. Go for it.

[-] 2 points by gsw (3143) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 5 years ago

Probably wouldn't affect US government. They could just go into a bunker or something.

It could rather get state government attention.

Use hang gliders with motors.

[-] -1 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 5 years ago

They ain't gonna listen either. Except maybe kalifornia's government.

[-] 1 points by gsw (3143) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 5 years ago

Nothing will work except elections victory of Ows.

You can have social rev, but what's it about. A bunch of liberal causes. That's not new.

People have little other power or rights left. There is hardly free speech. MSM doesn't want to hear from Ows, unless it is for their purpose, or to sell news.

People need to be united behind a big universal value, such as anti coruption, or virtuous government, as identified by Franklin.

All the little side wedge issues and such can just paint this Is a liberal thing, an anti tea party, plus all the people here claiming it is such.

This movement needs 1 clear message, 1 objective, and a plan and way toward it.

Nothing will happen until then. Occupying is not a unifying principal.

Problem is plainly USA citizens too lazy to give a crap, until it hits them personally.

[-] -1 points by Grimreaper2 (-318) 5 years ago

While I don't agree that it has to be a liberal thing I agree with much of what you say.