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Forum Post: government and corporations no real difference

Posted 2 years ago on Feb. 15, 2012, 1:24 p.m. EST by human6 (88)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

corporations pay lobbyists to go to washington and right regulation that have loopholes so they can avoid complying with them, while competition without lobbyists has to comply, thus being unable to stay open or start. corporations get bailed out if they fail but if they succeed they make money, thus they socialize losses and capitalize gains. Many corporate execs were once politicians and lobbyists are most often former civil "servants". Corporations are products of government involvement in the economy, in a true free market, mid sized businesses would rain supreme

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45 Comments


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[-] 4 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

The difference is that if OWS gets its act together,
we can get the corporate money out of goverment.

[-] -1 points by JanitorInaDrum (134) 2 years ago

No, that will really never happen, even if Citizens United is overturned.

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

I most sincerely disagree -
we have had all sorts of campaign limits that worked until they were overthrown or altered by ACTIVIST JUDGES
No court - not even SCOTUS can overrule a constitutional amendment
Pardon my pomposity, but our group has spent hundreds of hours researching this
If you have contrary evidence, I would love to see it.


Virtually everything we want hinges on disarming our opponent –
……………………………………………………..GREED
by stopping the flood of bribes into our government.
This is the first REAL step to
REAL change .
JOIN US >
Join the NYC OWS Corporations are not People and Money is not Speech Working Group
………….( even if you are not near NYC )

http://www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYCRDWG

join us even if you are not in the NY area
check out our comprehensive analysis of
the 17 existing proposed amendments
and our detailed historical timeline of corporate personhood


We can continue,

as a movement of demands
as a movement of declarations
as a movement of marches

OR


Are you ready
.....................FOR ACTION ?
Are you ready
.....................TO DO SOMETHING REAL ?
Are you ready
......................TO JOIN 83% OF YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS ?


We must not
DEMAND that we WANT THEM.to give to US
We must
DEMAND GOALS THAT WE WILL ACHIEVE FOR OURSELVES


Because of the Supreme Court's decision,
we cannot accomplish anything significant, without FIRST -

Overturning Citizens United !!!
Ending Corporate Personhood !!!


83% of Americans already agree on it
as stated in the ABC/Washington Post poll

.........................................

In the the PFAW Poll -

85% of voters say that corporations have too much influence over the political system today.
77% think Congress should support an amendment to limit the amount corporations can spend on elections.
74% say that they would be more likely to vote for a candidate for Congress who pledged to support a Constitutional Amendment limiting corporate spending in elections.


PLEASE COMMENT ON: MY "IDEAL - COMPREHENSIVE" AMENDMENT

Section 1 {A corporation is not a person and can be regulated}
The rights protected by the Constitution of the United States are the rights of natural persons { human beings } only. Artificial entities, such as corporations, limited liability companies, and other entities, established by the laws of any State, the United States, or any foreign state shall have no rights under this Constitution and are subject to regulation by the People, through Federal, State, or local law. The privileges of artificial entities shall be determined by the People, through Federal, State, or local law, and shall not be construed to be inherent or inalienable.

Section 2 { Money is not speech }
Federal, State and local government shall regulate, limit, or prohibit contributions and expenditures, including a candidate’s own contributions and expenditures, and may restrict all financing to “public financing” for the purpose of influencing in any way the election of any candidate for public office or any ballot measure. As above, all foreign contributions are forbidden.

Section 3 { Transparency & Disclosure }
Federal, State and local government shall require that any permissible contributions and expenditures be publicly disclosed less than 60 days after the transaction and before the election.

Section 4 { Voter Suppression }
Federal, State and local government shall not require any new forms of id for voting, beyond what was needed to register for previously registered voters. College photo-id ( including for out-of-state students ) must be acceptable. Federal, State and local government shall permit early voting for at least the 6 days before the election day.

Section 5 { Election Day & Registration }
Federal, State and local government may make election day a holiday. Federal, State and local government must allow simultaneous registration and voting on election day.

Section 6 { Eliminate the Electoral College – one man one vote } The electoral college is abolished and the President and Vice-President will be elected by popular vote. .

Section 7 { Eliminate the Filibuster } Unless specified in the Constitution , all voting in the House and Senate shall be based on a simple majority.

Section 8 Nothing contained in this amendment shall be construed to abridge the freedom of the press .

{NOTE: sections 4, 5, 6, 7 are not required to overturn CU – just my wish list }
COMMENTS ON THE ABOVE ARE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


Our primary goal should be to pass a constitutional amendment to counter Supreme Court decision Citizens United (2010) , that enables unlimited amounts of anonymous money to flood into our political system.
We don’t have to explain or persuade people to accept our position – we only have to persuade them to ACT based on their own position. Pursuing this goal will prove to the world that we, at OWS, are a serious realistic Movement, with serious realistic goals. Achieving this goal will make virtually every other goal – jobs, taxes, infrastructure, Medicare – much easier to achieve –
by disarming our greatest enemy – GREED.


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


THE SUCCESS STORY OF THE AMENDING PROCESS The Prohibition movement started as a disjointed effort by conservative teetotalers who thought the consumption of alcohol was immoral. They ransacked saloons and garnered press coverage here and there for a few years. Then they began to gain support from the liberals because many considered alcohol partially responsible for spousal and child abuse, among other social ills. This odd alliance, after many years of failing to influence change consistently across jurisdictions, decided to concentrate on one issue nationally—a constitutional amendment. They pressured all politicians on every level to sign a pledge to support the amendment. Any who did not, they defeated easily at the ballot box since they controlled a huge number of liberal, and conservative and independent swing votes in every election. By being a single-issue constituency attacking from all sides of the political spectrum, they very quickly amassed enough votes (2/3) to pass the amendment in Congress. And, within just 17 months, they were successful in getting ¾ of the state legislatures to ratify the constitutional amendment into law. (Others were ratified even faster: Eight —took less than a year. The 26th, granting 18-year-olds the right to vote, took just three months and eight days.)


If they could tie the left and right into a success - WHY CAN'T WE ??????????


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


1
83% of Americans ( and 76% of the Rs ) have already opposed CU in
the ABC/Washington post poll and the above
IS THEIR POSITION ALREADY.
2
We don’t have to work to convince people on the validity of our position.
3
This Amendment { sections 1+2 }is REQUIRED to overturn CU.
And all other electoral reform can be passed through the normal legislative process. 4
OWS and the FORUM pages are chock full of ( mostly ) excellent ideas to improve our country.
All of them have strong advocates – and some have strong opposition.
None of them has been “pre-approved” by 83% of Americans !
Pursuing this goal – is exactly what Americans want.
What do we want? Look at that almost endless list of demands – goals - aims.
Tax the rich. End the Fed. Jobs for all, Medicare for all. So easy to state our demands! Can you imagine how hard it would be to formulate a “sales pitch” for any of these to convince your Republican friends to vote for any of them?
83% of Americans have ALREADY “voted” against CU. And 76% of the Rs did too.
All we have to do ask Americans is to pressure their representatives – by letters - emails – petitions.

Wanna take your family on vacation?
Convince the 7 year old and the 10 year old to go to Mt Rushmore.
Then try to convince them to go to Disneyland.
Prioritizing this goal will introduce us to the world – not as a bunch of hippie radical anarchist socialist commie rabblerousers – but as a responsible, mature movement that is fighting for what America wants.


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


I feel that using the tactics of the NRA, the AARP, the TP, the anti-SOPA – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power and political pressure to achieve their minority goals - plus the Prohibition Amendment tactics – bringing all sides together - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one task that the MAJORITY want.

There are at least seventeen different Constitutional Amendments in the works.
Help us support these moves to get the money out of our political system.


Join the NYC OWS Corporations are not People and Money is not Speech Working Group
http://www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYCRDWG
Plan details http://bit.ly/vK2pGI

regular meetings Wednesdays 6-8PM @ 60 Wall St – The Attrium


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[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Not sure why I remembered this now. Maybe someone out there needs to know this.

Eventually we should target open documents, open government, transparency, and allow knowledge to be shared for all generations.

Retired Instructor/professor, Peter Groen, from Shepherd University in West Virginia that is working on Open Source Projects, and Open Government Collaboration to acheive government transparency. I'll provide a couple of links below:

http://www.cositech.net/ Think this is the main site.

https://sites.google.com/site/cosiopengovt/

◦The open way is about possibility. Open source presents a new way to solve old problems. To share ideas and effort.

◦The open way multiplies: Knowledge; Effort; Inspiration; Creativity; and Innovation. The impact is exponential.

◦The open way opens doors. Open source offers a new perspective. Open, not closed. Collaboration, not isolation.

www.opensource.com/open-source-way

http://americanvision2050.blogspot.com/2011/12/open-revolution-6-information-age-and.html

COSI 'Open' Health http://cosihit.blogspot.com/

[-] -1 points by JanitorInaDrum (134) 2 years ago

Why you are pissing in the wind, and up a rope at that, has been laid out many times here before. When things require logic to deduce, and once logic has ruled out all other possibilities, the majority here still clings to their comfortable illusions no matter how well the truth clearly explains why things are the way they currently are, like you are doing.

[-] -1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

Then you've got tyrrany of the majority instead of the minority, how is that better?

government is murder of difference of opinion, i don't want to pay for the government does that give you the right to break into my house throw me and throw me in jail, and shoot me if resist, i don't think so.

the end of every law is the end of a gun

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

The original YTMND had Nelson drawing "a robot with guns for arms shooting a plane made out of guns that fires guns",

http://wiki.ytmnd.com/Nelson_is_an_artist

[-] 0 points by unimportant (716) 2 years ago

Not in a Republic.

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

Yes in a republic you can be shot for not paying taxes

[-] 2 points by shooz (17791) 2 years ago

You almost had me there for a minute. Then I got to the "cure" being a "free market".

Before we can get anywhere, you must learn that the "free market" is an illusion. An illusion that got us where we are now.

There is no "magical market", nor is there an "invisible hand", nor will there ever be.

Tyranny Practiced by a single person, is still tyranny.

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

The problem is a monopoly on the police and courts, I am a free market anti capitalist, government is violence, nothing more. All actions are valid so long as your harm none

[-] 1 points by shooz (17791) 2 years ago

OK, ok.

One more time.

Repeat after me.

There is no such thing as a free market. It is an illusion.

Virtually all markets are "forced" into existence.

Therefore, markets are also violence. In your view, that is.

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

If free markets need to be forced into existence then they will wither and die. I just want live in a voluntary society, you can live how you want, i can live how i want, and if you don't like how i like you can fuck off. I believe like communism which is why i advocate a voluntary society, i spend most of my time with anarcho capitalists because anarcho socialists are all coercive assholes who would force their views on others.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17791) 2 years ago

See, there you go again. It's not an IF, they are all "forced" into existence.

Every single one.

You forgot to repeat......."free markets" are an illusion.

Coercion??? Every single advertizement you've even seen is a form of coercion. It's all around you.

So please, at least admit to some truths, and stop trying to convolute everything.

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

You failed to convince me, with examples and evidence that they are an illusion you just said they were. That's not proof, give me solid evidence to prove your point

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

When i say coercion i mean 3 things, theft fraud and threats

by your logic your coercing me right now because your advertising your beliefs to me

[-] 2 points by shooz (17791) 2 years ago

Now you're getting it, except I offered no "threat".

Now imagine I had billions to spend to coerce you into believing in the fantasy of a "free market". Using of course, illusory "threats" like socialism.

Now, repeat after me.

The "free market" is an illusion.

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

I don't see that as coercion, coercion is the use of violence like leading a revolution to over throw "capitalism" (corporatism) is violence

and a threat is holding a gun to your head and saying "gimme your money"

and a free market would be majority socialist anyway

the free market is an illusion in the same way a forest is an illusion, its a term to describe how people interact, not a real thing, but so is government, the free market is all nonviolent human interactions

this is a free market, we are trading information nonviolently

[-] 1 points by shooz (17791) 2 years ago

You don't see it as coercion, because it was designed not to feel that way.

Armed robbery and coercion are very different things.

There is NO relationship between a "free market" and a forest.

The analogy is wrong. A forest grows into existence and a "market" is "forced" into existence, and it's profit margins are "forced" onto the consumer..

The very possibility of a "free market" is an illusion, nothing more.

Accept that and move on.

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

how would you stop the free market from being "forced" on people

[-] 2 points by shooz (17791) 2 years ago

There you go again with assuming the illusion.

All markets are forced into existence. None of them are "free".

I never said I would do away with them, I'm asking you to accept reality.

That's all.

[-] 0 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

You haven't given me reason to believe they are "forced" into existence. Prove they are are forced.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17791) 2 years ago

Once you stop believing in the illusion, you will understand.

Markets don't come into existence by magic, they are "forced" into existence by man.

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

That's not proof, your saying that i need to stop believing in an illusion doesn't give me proof that they are an illusion.

Give me evidence to back up your claims

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

I am on the defense, I you to explain your position so I can make a rebuttal, then you rebut my rebuttal and so on.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17791) 2 years ago

Give me evidence of yours first.

I make no claims for illusions. You do.

[-] 2 points by theshade (5) 2 years ago

Corporations are the government for now.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the corps can change ones work schedule

they can expand hours until past exhaustion

or cut them into disappearance

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

government is violence we don't need it

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

if the government is controlled by the people,

the government will give the people power

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

No government gives people the right to shoot me based on difference of opinion, if i don't want to pay for iraq i will get arrested if i resist i'll get shot. would you be willing to be the person who shot me for not paying my taxes?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I don't want to get shot

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

no

nor should the government

anyone gonna shot me when there is no place to go no place to live

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

what?

[-] 0 points by JanitorInaDrum (134) 2 years ago

And the government has been a private corporation for over 100 years now, signed away as a private piggy bank to world banking powers when WWII ended.

I muse when I hear people rant about all the rebuilding "we did" after the end of various wars. We didn't do jack sheat nothing but become tolerant of fascism here, dependent on it now even. Those who own Corp. US, did, and continue to do, just as they wish.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

I think this is Called Regulatory Capture. You can see it on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

http://occupywallst.org/forum/economics-stimulus-taxes-jobs-regulations-revolvin/

I tried to address this a little with an idea to stop the "Revolving Door" of Government, Private Industry, The FED, and ...oh I guess I should add Lobbying.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 2 years ago

This is what needs to change.

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

No government needs to go away

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 2 years ago

Punctuation can be used to get your point across.

You might have meant, I don't know for sure, "No, government needs to go away"

I am not sure what you meant :-)

[-] 1 points by human6 (88) 2 years ago

no government. need's 2 go, away

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 2 years ago

no government. need's 2 go, away?

[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Definitely. The collective we needs clarification in OWS.

[-] 1 points by Quark (236) 2 years ago

Maybe OWS should become a corporation with a CEO leader.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by JanitorInaDrum (134) 2 years ago

Learn when this "government" was turned into a foreign and private corporation, as well as when all 50 states had incorporated as well, for compelling legal reasons presented to them by the US Corp.

It was sold out long ago.

By 1972, it was a done deal for even all 50 states.