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Forum Post: For those of you participating in this movement, Please explain why

Posted 2 years ago on Oct. 13, 2011, 7:18 p.m. EST by UnifiedVoice (53)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I realize that the title sounds accusatory, for which I apologize, as this is not my intent. I am just very interested in the OWS movement, and was curious as to whether or not there was a single stated goal or list of goals, and if so what that goal(s) would be.

137 Comments

137 Comments


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[-] 6 points by looselyhuman (3117) 2 years ago

Oligarchy is un-American.

[-] 1 points by classicliberal (312) 2 years ago

I agree. And oligarchy cannot exist without either consent of the controlled or force.

[-] 4 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I am participating because I know when I see things around me, for a LONG time, that is not right. I hope that this protest affects positive change in our country. And the more time I have spent here, listening and talking to people, many wonderful and intelligent, interesting people! I am more and more hopeful that positive change will happen.

May best advice is take some time to listen and talk to others. Hopefully you will come to see positive things happening too.

Watch out for the nutballs. Stay away from any post with rude or derogatory language is my rule. These posts are usually not worth the read and most people just ignore.

Welcome and happy exploring on the OWS Forum!

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

But what do you think is not right and what change is it that you want to see. It is this vagueness that is causing so many problems with OWS.

A few bullet statements for what you think is wrong and some intelligent ideas on what change you want to see would be helpful. This is something I have yet to see.

[-] 4 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

We are a noisy and diverse group! With many valid and interesting thoughts and opinions!

Ok, here's mine - I believe that the root cause of many of our problems is money in the political system. 1% buys their representation, 99% are left with the scraps. It was a process for me to come to this conslusion. Because our political system is so engrained and assumed as a given, because it has been this way for so long. But in listening and talking with others I came to see how truly awful a system we really have. It makes no sense. It is unfair and unjust. We should all have fair and equal representation in our governemnt!

Also, I believe that Wall Street should be brought to justice for their crimes in the financial crises. And Glass-Stegall should be re-enacted ASAP!

I have come to learn many new and interesting things here. These are just the top on MY list. If you are new looking around, I strongly encourage you to explore the other ideas out here. And come to your own conclusions in your own way!

When you start your own journey the vagueness won't bother you anymore! You'll see that it is actually a strength because we can all explore without any preconcieved notions. But I'm afraid now, I've just given you preconcieved notions!

I hope this helps! As a jumping off point anyway.

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

OK. I can follow you. I do agree that money has corrupted our government. I think it is from all sides of the political spectrum though; Democrat, Republican, Tea Party, American Socialist, etc, etc, etc.... I think all special interest groups should be banned from any political contribution (labor unions, corporate unions, social unions, all of them).

I agree financial organizations and their leaders should be held responsible for their activities and that there should be some degree of governmental regulation of the nation's financial practices. I would be open to appropriate parts of Glass-Stegall being reinstated.

I think OWS has a long way to go. But, if it can get its foundation built appropriately and on intelligence rather than rhetoric, it could become powerful indeed.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I agree. Corruption is totally bi-partisan! This may be the 1 thing they actually can agree on!! The problem is the political system itself. We need serious election reform, all the money out, publicly funded elections. Many here support this, many call it the #1 from what I have seen.

Yes, we have a long way to go. Many people to reach out to. You can help too. I hope you will consider getting involved.

1% buys their representation, 99% have eachother. And that is worth more than all the money in the world.

Check out some threads about End the Fed. Very interesting stuff. It's not really my thing, but I have learned alot.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21064) 2 years ago

I think here are a few reasons for the OWS movement: 46 million Americans live in poverty 40% of black children live in poverty 22% of all children live in poverty 14 million people are officially unemployed 31 million people are really unemployed 1% of Americans control 42% of the wealth Republicans are trying to take down the Post Office Pensions, where they still exist, are largely underfunded 401(k)s are in the toilet with huge losses over the past few years Home prices have fallen Foreclosures are skyrocketing 49.9 million Americans have no health insurance College tuition at a private non-profit school averages $35,000 Congress is trying to roll back environmental progress Unions are being stripped of their fundamental rights And on and on....

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Would you support this as a good, brief summary of goals for OWS: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/ ? It would also be helpful if you include why or why not.

[-] 2 points by WorkingClassAntiHero (352) from Manchester, NH 2 years ago

This stands to be the defining populist movement of a generation. Beyond that, its unconventional nature and to the point attitude (which I know sounds strange, but it took the hippies a decade to even have a central issue and they were silly fuckers in retrospect) have inspired activists and those who care about things of all stripes to step up and get involved.

Everyone knows things are broken, that something is wrong. They stand against that actively now, be they a PhD political or social or economic scientist or just someone who is sick of begging for wage slave work in our supposedly free and fair capitalist economy. As people come together, they're finding others with similar and different ideas and in their discussions and debates, as well as their participation in meetings and protests, they're learning more and more about what they stand for and what it means to stand at all.

[-] 2 points by UnitedStatesofWhatever (13) from Manhattan, NY 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 2 years ago

Good point. Many more people will come to your side when you are proactive (for “new” Business & Government solutions), instead of reactive (against “old” Business & Government solutions), which is why what we most immediately need is a comprehensive “new” strategy that implements all our various socioeconomic demands at the same time, regardless of party, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves; that is, using a Focused Direct Democracy organized according to our current Occupations & Generations. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategically Weighted Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:

http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures

Join

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/

because we need 100,000 “support clicks” at AmericansElect.org to support a Presidential Candidate -- such as any given political opportunist you'd like to draft -- in support of the above bank-focused platform.

Most importantly, remember, as cited in the first link, that as Bank Owner-Voters in your 1 of 48 "new" Business Investment Groups (or "new" Congressional Committees) you become the "new" Congress replacing the "old" Congress according to your current Occupation & Generation, called a Focused Direct Democracy.

Therefore, any Candidate (or Leader) therein, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet; it's the STRATEGY – the sequence of steps – that the people organize themselves under, in Military Internet Formation of their Individual Purchasing & Group Investment Power, that's important. In this, sequence is key.

Why? Because there are Natural Social Laws – in mathematical sequence – that are just like Natural Physical Laws, such as the Law of Gravity. You must follow those Natural Social Laws or the result will be Injustice, War, etc.

The FIRST step in Natural Social Law is to CONTROL the Banks as Bank Owner-Voters. If you do not, you will inevitably be UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED by the Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government who have a Legitimate Profit Motive, just like you, to do so.

Consequently, you have no choice but to become Candidates (or Leaders) yourselves as Bank Owner-Voters according to your current Occupation & Generation.

So please JOIN the 2nd link so we can make our support clicks at AmericansElect.org when called for, at exactly the right time, by an e-mail from that group, in support of the above the bank-focused platform. If so, then you will see and feel how your goals can be accomplished within the above strategy as a “new” Candidate (or Leader) of your current Occupation & Generation.

[-] 1 points by Tujay (20) 2 years ago

I believe the incredible amount of debt the average American is forced to pay for housing, education and healthcare has threatened my economic security and that for most of the American people. I blame both Wall Street and D.C. We need ways to renegotiate the terms of our debt. Right now, we don't have much debt negotiating power. This is why I'm part of it.

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Well stated. Since posting this three days ago a colleague and I have been working together on a list of economic proposals, and we posted them here (http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-economic-agenda-for-ows/), not too long ago. As you seem to be both intelligent and serious about OWS, I would appreciate if you would look at that page and let me know what you think.

[-] 1 points by jummy (6) 2 years ago

the tea party, despite being robbed of oxygen by the mainstream media for its first entire year of existence, became a driving force in electoral politics, leading the gop back to legislative gains in the 2010 elections.

leading institutions of the mainstream left decided that the protest-to-office model might work for the democrats in 2012, as some bold strategy is necessary given the rising unpopularity of the democratic incumbent. the resulting plan to create a counter-teaparty movement was devised by leading organizers and financiers of the left and ads were placed on craigslist to invite unoccupied college kids to make bux by protesting.

[-] 1 points by BrentAllsop (4) from Sandy, UT 2 years ago

Asking that question will not work in a forum like this. Even if you did manage to read through 100 respondents, could that give you any idea? You need an open survey system to do that, and everyone needs to be willing to do a bit more work to 'canonize' what they want, so everyone can know, concisely and quantitatively, what everyone thinks is the answer to this questions. (see: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/127 )

[-] 1 points by ComplexMissy (291) 2 years ago

No, I'm glad you're asking the question. It's something that needs to be answered by everyone here so that we can get a better sense of what our specific goals are. I am part of this movement because it's logical. It is logical to demand change and try to do something different when it is clear that what has been done for so long does not work for the vast majority. What we can do--specifically--is still up for conversation. My two cents: I think that we need to get money out of politics, I think that everyone associated with this movement should NOT vote in the upcoming election, and I think that we need to demand a change with our media in this country so they offer some honesty and trasparency for the people.

For a more complete version of the things I believe we're discussing and wanting to change, this video sums it all up eloquently and intelligently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX1N3opw5eI

[-] 1 points by SwiftJohn (79) 2 years ago

I could say a number of things right now. I put a number of my views out there in a forum post here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-should-i-vote-for-you-part-1/ which covers a number of my views.

[-] 1 points by goeib1 (163) 2 years ago

You posted a REALLY bad question for this group. There are as many reason as grains of sand on the beach. BUT WE ALL NEED TO TALK ABOUT IT!! Ugh....

[-] 1 points by zenman629 (3) 2 years ago

The why is easy...we've known this for a while.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-13/growing-income-divide-may-increase-u-s-vulnerability-to-financial-crises.html

At the very least OWS is raising the bar and awareness that it's time to change this. The solution of course won't be easy but healthy dialogue is the best start. You just need people willing to participate in a dialogue that is free of preconceived notions of what is best for this country and work on addressing the issue with an open mind. This is a new era and some serious discussion needs to take place that will address a growing global population competing for fewer jobs that will continue to be displaced by an exponential growth in technology.

[-] 1 points by hairlessOrphan (522) 2 years ago

I think you will find that everyone - the statistical 99%, not just the people here - feel angry, frustrated, and helpless. At first blush that may seem uninformative, but it seems to me that it tells us everything.

You have a wide range of ages, political leanings, backgrounds, and educational levels represented here. Even those who have been politically aware their entire lives identify with the anger of the 99%. And it's not just because 99% is pretty close to 100%. The number is symbolic, but it's not random - it's not just any 99% of the people, chosen haphazardly. It's a very specific symbol.

Why is it that people immediately, emotionally understand the concept of "the 99%?" My thinking is because for our entire lives we've felt like we've been missing our share of the nation and of its government. We see the madness in Washington, and we think to ourselves, "that's not representative of me. Can it be that I'm the only normal person around, and everyone else is represented by these superficial, partisan hacks in Congress?" But when we talk to other people, they all seem pretty normal, too. If government is supposed to be representative of the people, why are we having such a hard time finding the whackjobs that Congress represents?

Suddenly, there's a movement that says, "hey, no, wait. 99% of the people are normal, and we're mad." And so a lot of people look up and say - with a little relief - "oh my God, that's me! They're talking about me!" I think that's why a lot of people are here.

The problem is that 99% of the people are mad - but for a lot of different reasons. And because there are a lot of different reasons, people seem to think that there aren't any reasons we all have in common. They think there is nothing that binds the 99% together other than that anger and frustration. But, personally, I don't think that's true. The 99% wasn't chosen haphazardly. I think we have something in common. I think it's the distance we feel between ourselves - the people - and the system of power - government and corporations. We know there are large, powerful entities out there, but none of them seem to be looking out for us, neither as citizens nor as human beings.

I'm not sure the real anger is at business, Capitalism, and the rich. If you push hard enough, most people don't think business is a terrible thing. Most people think business running government is a terrible thing. The distinction matters. Sure, there are some who will argue that business is terrible, but even they understand that business running government is also terrible.

Anyway, look at this thread. Do you see what I'm seeing? Not everyone can verbalize it, but I think the undertone is there.

[-] 1 points by ProvidenceRhodeIsland (40) 2 years ago

This upwelling expresses a deep unease by Americans that forward economic progress slowed or stopped sometime around the height of the Vietnam war. Nobody wants to see a repeal of Child Labor Laws, elimination of basic safety standards, meager wages, a debt-fueled economy and a kind of "casino" capitalism. Yet, these are the real consequences of "Global Wage Arbitrage" and the leveling effect of "One Billion New Consumers". Most people while professing faith and allegiance in free markets, democracy and open society are terrified of all three.

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Interesting... So your perception of OWS is that people do not really trust capitalism, even though they claim to?

[-] 2 points by ProvidenceRhodeIsland (40) 2 years ago

I'm ambivalent. I think youth, people who have a lot of human capital, people who are not risk averse, enlightened people who have a lot of confidence in themselves and open systems are very much pro open society, open/free markets and democracy. But, maybe when people age, maybe when people feel they have too much to loose, too much invested in the status quo,,... and maybe not that much human capital...maybe they cheer democracy, capitalism, free society... but in reality they may dread it... they have the most to loose. It's like Janis Joplin said: Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
I think the OWS upwelling is far more open, eclectic and heterogeneous than the media fathoms... it is pretty frustrating for the media,.. not to be able to put a "label' on it.

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

You make a good point about old people being more afraid of losing what they have. I'm not so sure that the heterogeneity of OWS is a good thing, though. I think most people will eventually want a way to easily explain the entirety of the movement.

[-] 1 points by ProvidenceRhodeIsland (40) 2 years ago

The OWS upwelling will have greater impact if it is narrowly focused on economic and financial reform... there are immediate, tangible things that middle America would like to see: 1. Implement STRONG Volcker rule (this has been published in the Federal Register and it remains to be seen how much will be crippled by the financial lobby) 2. Put ALL derivatives on standard exchanges. (Right now $600 Trillion in derivatives are the ticking bomb,... not US Treasuries) 3. Audit the Federal Reserve (Strong version of Ron Paul's agenda) 4. End-to-big-to-fail (again some of this is already in the works with Large Financial Institutions being required to prepare "Living Wills" 5. Equity holders of failed institutions need to be taken to zero (wiped out), bond-holders get-a-debt-for-equity swap


Most upwellings have at the core an injury, wrong or grievance. Across four centuries now (18th, 19th, 20th, 21st) America has made a Grand Bargain with her people... if you worked hard, played by the rules, then you could be successful and prosperous... you could raise your children knowing that you would bequeath to them a better America. But, America also made a great gambit at the height of the Cold War... America bet that the developing world would follow in its footsteps, in the path of enlightened representative government and free markets and open society. The gambit paid off well. But, in way, America now has to rebuild, having won the Cold War.... Just like Great Britain had to re-build after the Napoleanic War (1815-1835). I know it sounds strange, but in a way we are living with the after-shock of having won the Cold War. Think about it: median wage income has been stagnant since approximately 1980, or earlier. This was no ordinary recession. This was as Rogoff calls it: The Great Contraction.

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Hey, I'm about to post an economic proposal for the goals of this movement, would you mind if I used the second part of this post? I would, of course, give you credit.

[-] 1 points by ProvidenceRhodeIsland (40) 2 years ago

Of course you may. I would like to know if you think it would be positive for us to post series of "Why's". We all see that the media is waiting anxiously for "Demands", but as Yves Smith of Naked Capitalism says, a list of demands would "label' and confine the upwelling. I'd like to see a series of "Why" questions: 1. Why has the Volcker Rule not been implemented? 2. Why does America subsidize corn farmers, when there is a nation wide epidemic of obesity? 3. Why does the Gini co-efficient of America now rank worse than Mexico? 4. Why aren't derivatives on an exchange 5. Why is Europe going forward with a Tobin Tax on HFT High Frequency Trading, when the SEC is dithering 6. Why aren't Bart Chilton's position limits on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange being implemented? Why ....

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Interesting idea. I think it's worth a shot, as it would open up discussion about key issues rather than force changes based on what might be insufficient information.

[-] 1 points by ProvidenceRhodeIsland (40) 2 years ago
  1. Implement the Volcker rule.
  2. Allow large financial institutions to fail by letting equity holders go to zero, and turning debt (bond holders) into equity. Hold depositors harmless and take care of counter parties (see next point)
  3. All derivatives should be on exchanges. (right now there is $600 Trillion of derivatives ticking away like a bomb at the heart of the world economy).
[-] -1 points by Markmad (323) 2 years ago

Let’s demand the nationalization of our natural resources industries. It’s a matter of national security. The State must go into business to have endless sources of income in order to divorce from Wall Street. A capitalist government that refuses to be in business is worthless.

[-] 1 points by glenn1984 (57) 2 years ago

Are You From The News Channel?

[-] 1 points by usaworktomuch (55) 2 years ago

Who me? No. I'm just an upset citizen that wants change! If we don't stop Corporate America - there will be 1 day weekends;

NO VACATION time;

and 70-80 hour work weeks!!!!

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Nope, but I wish I was.

[-] 2 points by glenn1984 (57) 2 years ago

you sounded so professional in your statement :-)

There are many goals, ideas and opinions here as you would expect from a broad population spectrum involved in this movement.

Like I said before, from what I see the key message is "Fairness for All" Not socializm, not talking rich people's money, not re-electing Obama. Just making rules of the game Fair again and moving on to rebuild our lives. I think that's what people want.

The repeating goals are -1) Campaign financing / Election Reform -2) Taxation / Tax Code Reform -3) Corporate Personhood / Responsibility Reform

There is more on proposed goals here http://occupycommunity.org/propose-a-goal/

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Thanks for the link, that site is a lot like what I was looking for, and the ability to vote eventually looks promising.

[-] 1 points by glenn1984 (57) 2 years ago

Yeah ... when they actually activate it.

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Hopefully that will be soon, as some of the goals seem somewhat unrelated, such as ending capital punishment. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a noble goal for a movement, but this just doesn't seem to jive with the other, economic goals.

[-] 1 points by glenn1984 (57) 2 years ago

I Agree ... pick a catchy descriptive slogan, 3 key goals and run with-it ... news, politician's, and mom/pop watching them won't remember more then three the next day (clear communication is key)

if you want more people on board, you need to communicate you are on their side. I don't think middle America mom & pop will support anarchists, socialists or hippies as we are described on the networks.

[-] 0 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

BTW, you should join the new forum being set up at http://www.themultitude.org/forum/index.php. The forum there is cleaner and they are promising to punish trolls. If you do join, you should friend me, my handle is the same over there as over here.

[-] 1 points by glenn1984 (57) 2 years ago

bad link ... who's setting it up?

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

A guy on this forum whose handle is equazcion. Have you tried going to themultitude.org, without the rest?

[-] 1 points by glenn1984 (57) 2 years ago

Can't verify if themultitude.org is real or a highjack ... noone here seems to know. How did you find out? RU downtown?

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

No, I'm not. I don't know if there is any way to know for sure that it's not a highjack, but I'll look into contacting someone here who knows.

[-] 2 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Hmmm, interesting that it's not affiliated with OWS. But it is a bit cleaner. I guess I'll try to be active on both forums, and see if themultitude gets more people.

[-] 1 points by usaworktomuch (55) 2 years ago

The U.S. is the Most Overworked Developed Nation in the World – When do we Draw the Line?

[-] 1 points by Poplicola (125) from Jersey City, NJ 2 years ago

This isn't an attack on the rich. There is nothing wrong with being rich. There is a problem with being rich and stealing from the poor. There is a problem with few people controlling the wealth, and to that end there is a problem when those who control the wealth are not helping their country and society progress.

David Walker, former US Comptroller General and chief of the GAO, warned before the 2004 election that if large economic changes were not made, by 2009 the United States and its taxpayers would not be able to afford the interest payments on the national debt. A study authorized by the US Treasury in 2001 found that in order to keep servicing the debt at its current rate of growth, by 2013 income taxes would need to be raised to 65%. If the United States cannot afford to pay the interest on its debts, that would be the final stage of economic collapse and hence result in a total textbook bankruptcy. The systematic crisis would in turn spread to the rest of the world.

How did this happen? Why is the US national debt $14,819,350,000+? Of the 203 countries in the world today, only four (!) do not owe others money. The collective external debt of all the governments in the world is now above 40 trillion dollars and this number doesn’t include the massive about of household debt in each country.

The whole world is basically bankrupt. But how? How can the world as a whole owe money to itself? Obviously, it’s all nonsense. There is no such thing as ‘money’. There are only planetary resources, human labor and human ingenuity. The monetary system regulated by Federal Reserve is nothing more than a game… and an outdated and dysfunctional one at that. Those in positions of social power alter the rules of the game, at will. The nature of those rules is guided by the same competitive, distorted mentalities that are used in everyday “monetary” life, only this time the game is rigged at its root to favor those who run the show. For example, if you have 1 million dollars and put it into a CD at 5% interest, you are going to generate $50,000 a year simply for that deposit. You are making money off of money itself… paper being made from other paper … nothing more - no invention - no contribution to society – no nothing. That being denoted, if you are a lower to middle class person, who is limited in funds, and must get interest based loans to buy your home or use credit cards, then you are paying interest to the bank, which the bank is then using, in theory, to pay the person’s return with the 5% CD! Not only is this equation outrageously offensive due to the use of usury (interest) to ‘steal from the poor and give to the rich’, but it also perpetuates class stratification by its very design, keeping the lower classes poor, under the constant burden of debt, while keeping the upper classes rich, with the means to turn excess money into more money, with no labor. That reality aside, there are other games in the system which have worked for decades, but are just now starting to bloom into the inevitable mathematic disasters that should have been anticipated 100 years ago. The point is, our system is broken. Simple policy change will not solve our debt problem. We need to alter the governmental paradigm if we wish to repay our debt. We need to end the Federal Reserve Board.

This is not a liberal or conservative issue. This is a matter of upholding the Constitution. Congress gave over the power of the purse in 1913 to a quasi-public-private bank called the Federal Reserve which manipulates global currencies. This is wholeheartedly unconstitutional, and at this point it's become immoral.

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

But, if the money you give the bank that the bank then loans out to another person is used to create a new business, and that money would not have been available for some reason otherwise, is that money not contributing to the economy as much as working a job would? Or perhaps, if the business becomes really successful, even more?

[-] 2 points by JDub (218) 2 years ago

no. Look up fractional reserve. The money loaned out was originated out of thin air. The bank takes in your deposit, then loans 90% out, while never really funding it with actual money. Then the same bank, (or another closely related bank) gets the money made deposited again, then gives out 90% of that. suddenly, that bank has made more money than was deposited.

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Interesting, I hadn't heard of that before. I'll be sure to look at that and get back to you.

[-] 1 points by shescraftypdx (6) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

I am participating in this movement because I believe that constituents are not being listened to or represented by the officials they elect. I demand representation for my taxation.

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Haha, nice allusion.

[-] 1 points by shescraftypdx (6) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

spell check. :) silly me... didn't spot you as a troll. Have fun!

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

What? I was serious, and not making fun of you. I honestly thought it was an apt reference to the birth of this nation.

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 2 years ago

once you leave the are they will post new sign with new rules

[-] 1 points by FairShare (90) 2 years ago

I will put it this way. I beleive this movement started from the blogs of news sites. Some people saw a chance to make the discussion larger. All of these bloggers had valid points good or bad. Rage or compassion. We all want to see a fair American Policy for all constituents so we are trying to get the word out we will not be held up by those above us like thieves robbing a train. We tired of greed and corruption. We want what all people want. Respect, heath, work, and a roof over our heads. Take care of the future of little Americans. We are not against the American dream and being rich. We only want the rich to realize we can't take all of the burden. It's unhealthy and unAmerican. The people on this site from what I can see are all trying to come up with solutions, ideas, and present them to our leaders as guidance to a better America and a fair sense of play. I think even some people come here just to try to keep the peace and all should have a voice. OWS seems to represent these values. Inspiration comes from all to get America and the Global Societys we deal with a better path to live by. Anyways that what I feel its about.

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

So you believe that the unifying force in this group is the common desire for change?

[-] 2 points by FairShare (90) 2 years ago

I feel the unifying force in this group is the ability of diversity to overcome their differences to affect a change through fair reasoning. We must justify a means to an end is played out. We must reason a means to an end is more appropriate.

[-] 1 points by mikevilkin (6) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

Folks, it's time to formulate an economic program. Otherwise, OWS will be viewed as a bunch of anarchists who "don't know what they want". As part of my MBA studies in California Coast University I've studied the root causes of economic instability. After reading a small mountain of books I came to the conclusion that our financial system has a vested interest to have unstable economy. For example, Bank of America owns Merrill Lynch. When we have economic depression, Bank of America will provide unlimited credit to Merrill Lynch, and Merrill Lynch will buy financial and real assets pennies on a dollar. How can the financial system cause economic depression? That 's easy. When commercial banks make loans for investment, jobs are created. For example, a $100,000 loan TO BUILD a new house can create 4 jobs that pay $25,000 per year. Right now the banks will gladly give you a consumption loan with a credit card, but not an investment loan to build a new house. How can the big banks can conspire to kill the economy? I would imagine that during a cocktail party the CEO's of just a few biggest banks had a small talk, and they agreed that the economy was in a bad shape, and to make loans is risky. The orders to tighten the credit went down the food chain, and the bank credit is tight as a result. When bank credit is tight, economy suffers. It looks that the bank credit will not get lose until the financial class buys enough assets pennies on a dollar. Our demand should be to examine the way the biggest banks are doing their business. They are sitting on their reserves and are not making loans. A free market economy is the best possible system, but that is not an excuse to allow the financial class to cause economic recessions and depressions for their personal gain. BTW, everyone on the Wall Street lost money during the subprime mortgage crisis. Then where the hell did the money go? If one person lost a dollar, then another person found that same dollar. We need to dig where is that black hole where billions of dollars just vanished without a trace. Who made money and how? But most important, the banks must start making construction loans right now. There are millions of shovel-ready jobs. We all need better housing, but the financial class needs higher prices and bigger mortgages. That is how profits can be maximized. There is nothing wrong to maximize profits, - if one is using good business ethics. The financial class needs some help to recall the basics of the business ethics class they all took in college. --Michael Vilkin

[-] 2 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

A lot of good points here culminating in a clear, achievable goal. Nice to see. Is there a way to make sure others on the site see this than just those reading this thread?

[-] 1 points by mikevilkin (6) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

UnifiedVoice, thank you for kind words. If you like what I wrote, help me to formulate the economic agenda. English is not my native language, and I have some difficulties. Can you spare a couple of hours in the coming days to proofread and organize an economic agenda for the movement?

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Of course, just send it to me and I'll do my best.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Correct. The primary goal needs to focus on the bribes. To end the bribes can only be accomplished by nominating candidates for the 2012 election who will stop all bribes with only public financed campaigns.

No ads for any candidate. All candidates must have equal time on C-span. If a 4th C-span channel is necessary, then create C-span 4.

Everyone in their right mind would vote for that. We can't lose. Let's focus on this remedy.

[-] 0 points by ThinMan2 (46) 2 years ago

Chicks I'm in it for the Chicks

[-] 0 points by usaworktomuch (55) 2 years ago

You want to know what we are fighting for?!?

If we don't stop Corporate America - there will be 1 day weekends; NO VACATION time; and 70-80 hour work weeks!!!!

<<Working hours are already longer than they were forty years ago. ..>>

Read this article by: Juliet B. Schor THE OVERWORKED AMERICAN

[-] 0 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

So, you are lazy?

[-] 1 points by usaworktomuch (55) 2 years ago

OMG - no - and that is the most trite and predictable thing you could say. The facts are - we are working more hours now then we have been 40 years ago.. and if the trend keeps cont then we will be working even more hours. I don;t know about you - but I have friends and family I want to be with and getting home at 9 every night is not happening with me. Go back to the Tea Party you creep!

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

If you don't like the hours you are working, get another job. Better yet, start your own business and see how far you get working 40 yours a week, five days a week.

[-] 1 points by usaworktomuch (55) 2 years ago

Work to Live and not live to work. France passed a 35 hour work week law and we will do similar. Time is precious and I will not be a slave to greed. greed fuels this Capitalist system where there is never enough - this is intrinsically against nature. I don’t want - nor will let happen my children working 70-80 hours a week and that is the road these greedy Corporations are taking us.

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

What kind of job is it that you want where you can work 35 hours and support your family? How much do you expect to make an hour? What kind of benefits do you expect your employer to provide? What is it that you think makes your job skills (whatever they are) worth that kind of money? This is completely unrealistic. You use France as your example? I've seen it. It's on its way down the economic toilet, just like the rest of the European Union.

[-] 1 points by usaworktomuch (55) 2 years ago

Your points are well taken and make sense. But I've lived this corporate lifestyle and I know, in my heart, the incessant nature of Capitalism: the "more, more, more," the "work, work, work" is terrible. The next thing you know is... the family you were so diligently working to provide for are older and gone - you're old, unhappy and you will feel like you missed out on life when you die. I am not an opponent of work; in fact, work is noble and good. But there needs to be a line drawn and it needs to be drawn soon.

[-] 0 points by Skippy2 (485) 2 years ago

Peanut butter cups for everybody? No? ok how about we vote out all incumbents regardless of party affiliation.

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

not plausible.

[-] -1 points by xyzxyz (0) 2 years ago

We are too damn stupid and lazy to accomplish anything in life so we need the government to steal from the people that succeeded. We are pathetic parasites voting ourselves a raise from the people that actually contribute towards society.

[-] 2 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Ironic, considering the only group that actually CAN vote themselves a raise is the one you claim OWS wants to leech from.

[-] -1 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

ows from start has been democratic and all republicans do nothing but demonize the movement read the signs listen to the people and see tax rich get money out of politics end wars have never been backed by republicans tax cuts for middle class modernize roads and bridges invest in middle class not banking class by raising minimum wage thats the occupy wall street message

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

constipated thinking, rhetorical and political, unintelligent, extremist, and a detriment to your organization's purported philosophy.

[-] 0 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

sorry but these are the facts republicans must go

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

From what I understand about OWS, they're not explicitly affiliated with either party. So isn't it somewhat impractical to alienate other members by making this about party?

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

Absolutely Wonderful! Finally an intelligent point of observation!

[-] -1 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

they are dividing our message by blaming both sides as equal

[-] 2 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

In this context, if you see only two sides in this issue, both sides are equal. They are equally responsible for the condition of the economy.

[-] 1 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

republican leaders do not support ows views

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

By blaming both sides as equal they are saying that OWS transcends party, while by claiming that the movement is only Democratic, you are dividing the message more than they.

[-] 1 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

tax rich end wars get money out of politics have and never will be supported by republican leaders

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

That is like saying that objective taxation, living within your means, and getting socialism out of politics are concepts that neither have been nor ever will be supported by democratic leaders.

[-] 1 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

thats my point you are not ows

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

You're not listening. If this movement really is the "99%", then there are going to be, by necessity, a large amount of Republican members. If you make this a party debate, you are diluting the movement by causing those members to become disenfranchised with OWS, simply because you have a bias against Republicans. What you see in their leaders may or may not be true, but don't judge all Republicans by that.

[-] 1 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

thats my point people like you who took the term 99% out of context ows meant we are the majority of america which is the middle class not the tea party who claimed they were a movement of average americans

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

If the context of OWS's idea of 99% is that 99% of the population is middle class, then there is no realistic possibility that OWS can ever represent 99% of any population because it implies that the remaining 1% represents all of the upper class and all of the middle class. The idea is inane rhetoric.

[-] 0 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

ows from start has been democratic and all republicans do nothing but demonize the movement read the signs listen to the people and see tax rich get money out of politics end wars have never been backed by republicans tax cuts for middle class modernize roads and bridges invest in middle class not banking class by raising minimum wage thats the occupy wall street message

[-] 0 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

DAMN, DUDE! Is it even fricking possible for you to compose an intelligent fricking sentence? Crap like this is what kills your credibility and destroys any chance of anyone taking you seriously! I can't understand a damn thing you are trying to communicate here. SHIT! LEARN TO FUCKING COMMUNICATE!

[-] 1 points by dankpoet (425) 2 years ago

Psst. Oceanweed is a troll.

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

And a damned unintelligible one at that.

[-] 1 points by dankpoet (425) 2 years ago

A think its worth a gamble on www.themultitude.org & www.occupyr.com. Multitude explicitly bans trolls. OccupyR just have better features going for it.

[-] 0 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

learn that ows will destroy republicans by getting money out of politics

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

So, everyone in the middle class is a Democrat? I think not.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

You're being sucked into dividing. We need most independents who are sick of the Republican Democrat CRIME FAMILY that has robbed us blind. If you focus on bribery that screws everybody except the privileged.

[-] 0 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

tax rich get money out of politics end wars read the signs and listen to the protestors these ideals are not republican

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Obama and the Democrats have lied about all there promises. Wake up. If we don't focus on a 3rd party its because you're all in the deep trance.

You really can't understand politics and government.

[-] 0 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

wake up the republicans are the problem and will not stop ows

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

You really don't understand. Republicans are fucked up beyond repair. They are only about 30%, we don't need any of them.

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

They are not the ideals of extreme Republicans, but I submit that many moderate Republicans would support those beliefs. There may not be, but I think it likely that there are at least a few Republicans who are members of/participating in OWS.

[-] 1 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

they are some but they are trying to divide us on a unified message

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Look at this thread. The message is far from unified just yet. And when OWS'ers agree upon their goals/message, wouldn't it be better to have input from those on both sides of the political spectrum, rather than just those on your side of it?

[-] 0 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

ows is not about compromise obama tried

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

So, you believe the path to a solution lies in extremism? Refusing to listen is only going to result in a message that will be just as extremely left wing as the Tea Party is right wing.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Is common sense extremism? Screw right and left. Try common sense. If we can't form a 3rd party to deal with the primary issue which is bribes, we lost.

If you try harder to lose this battle you can't do better. Bribes cause the tax loopholes, the trade deals that send the jobs to China. Weapons, etc.

If you can't understand bribes, we're doomed.

[-] 1 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

are you blind thats what ows is about taking back the political system from corporate pigs

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

That means win elections. Sitting in the park will do nothing to the corporate pigs. Its that simple.

[-] 0 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

ows from start has been democratic and all republicans do nothing but demonize the movement read the signs listen to the people and see tax rich get money out of politics end wars have never been backed by republicans tax cuts for middle class modernize roads and bridges invest in middle class not banking class by raising minimum wage thats the occupy wall street message

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

You are the typical liberal wimp. You are poorly informed and misinformed by the pundit propaganda.

[-] 1 points by UnifiedVoice (53) 2 years ago

Ad hominem aside, you are advocating extremism, which is impractical in this case; as evidenced by the fact that the Tea Party's extremism has only resulted in further wrecking politics.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Complete nonsense.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

There are no Republicans involved in this. Get real. Screw Republicans, Democrats are bad enough. they all sold out the entire country including themselves.

[-] 0 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Ignore all Republicans. They are idiots. All their candidates are screwballs.

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

extremist political rhetoric.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Exactly. You got the point. Let them destroy us and we'll be their stooges. that's why we're in deep shit right now. Being stooges is great for the 1%.

[-] 1 points by getgrip (29) 2 years ago

I guess that it is a good thing that democrats never engage in extremist political rhetoric.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Democrats --Obama -- in particular are our enemy. The truth to you is extremist rhetoric. We're a country of stooges in a trance from the media propaganda that works like a charm. Until the stooges finally quit being arrogant and admit being screwed, we're all dead. http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

[-] -1 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

they are dividing our message by blaming both sides as equal

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

My message is bribery. Can't you ignore asshole Republicans. Its the political correct trance that prevents you from being direct.

[-] 1 points by oceanweed (521) 2 years ago

i cant ignore people without jobs and struggling middle class families that can barley support themselves due to republican views

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 2 years ago

Its the bribes that created the tax credit for companies that build factories in China. Bribes are the cause of your problem. You don't understand what you are writing.