Forum Post: "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win." Gandhi said that and it is beautiful. Where would you say we are in the process?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 20, 2011, 8:48 p.m. EST by therising
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"First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win." Gandhi said that and it is beautiful. Where would you say we are in the process?
Somewhere between laugh and fight. :D
"Somewhere between laugh and fight." Wow. Ain't that the quote of the day. Beautifully said :)
This. The gloves are off. It's time for us to improve our strategy, dig our heels in and get ready for the long haul.
Time to finish what we started brothers and sisters.
Id say your on the other end of the spectrum. So ultimately this will all be a waste of time. You cannot beat this government this way. All your doing is gonna make this into a mess. The second anyone in occupy wall street harms anyone you will be considered a terrorist. I do believe the creator of this had good intentions however the ignorance of one is all it takes to make this all go down in shambles.
you speak Kinda like our country founding fathers, didnt they say the same thing!?
How is that "occupy Zuccotti Park" thing working for you, Hmmmm ???
Good thanks. I actually live upstate. I spend about 2 hours traveling to utilize my first amendment right.
How's being a keyboard warrior working out for you, Hmmmmmm???
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I "Like" her response... In fact, I even punched the button :)
could not have said it better...great impression of this so called "process"
Fight with your DOLLARS. We don't need the freakin' politicians, we have enormous power as consumers and can change the face of America !
Follow the shopping guidelines at http://bit.ly/vof9WH and help defeat them ! No ads, no profit, no motive but to help employ Americans and defeat the banksters !
Spread the word ! Spread the link!
We don't need "politicians". At this point we can all pretty much agree that they are majoritively sock puppets for big business, bought and paid for based on existing tweaks they created so they could perform these immoral acts.
We do need government though. This is where the real beauty of our system comes into play. Not only can we use our $ to enact change, but we can use our rights to vote and put out our own candidates. I don't think that we will be able to do so on any kind of large scale in 2012, but I think that if things have not significantly improved by the followin election cycle in 2014, and again in 2016, senators, congressmen and even the then sitting president should be worried about their job security.
I think we REALLY only need two fundamental reforms. Using these two reforms, we can fix what ails us.
The first is to TAKE BACK OUR GOVERNMENT ! See http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-the-people-in-order-to-a-proposal/ . Once we have our government back, we can use the uncorrupted Democratic process to resolve our OTHER differences. If we continue to fight over our other differences now, we become FACTIONS, with NO POWER... just as the STATUS QUO desires.
The second is to exercise our power as consumers to DEMAND corporations behave the way we want by controlling the ONLY thing they care about; Profit. Americans have for too long dutifully played by the economic rules the STATUS QUO defines. Trade agreements mean NOTHING unless we BUY foreign goods from the multi-nationals, and we can CHOOSE to only support those companies that exhibit social responsibility. See http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/
Take back our government and exercise the power we have as the world's largest consumer market. I don't think we really need anything more !
Take back government by having a discussion on "What is the PURPOSE of Government". Only then can deal with differences and corporations. Search the Forum for my post on this.
I think that we are singing in tune on the whole thing. Have you heard of the 99% Declaration and Working Group? Your urge for there to be organization and an effective front towards politics may be rewarded through their proposals and language.
I have heard of them, but I haven't yet seen any real organization. In my humble opinion, OWS needs to tone down some of the radical stuff and focus on things with broad appeal. I think getting the money out is something ALL Americans can support (especially given the recent 'insider trading' bru-ha-ha), and the consumer power concept can be easily spread by the younger generation's social media savvy (heck, it toppled Egypt).
Come ON-Egypt is in the process of being usurped by NATO from the inside now...look for Wesley Clarks recent YouTube... NATO by way of "democratic" Soros spawned movements (yes, like OWS) is bringing governments down by pitting military against the .01% trying to wake up the 98% about the 1% actually causing the problem. It's like pissing in the wind. I applaud the INTENT of the 99% of OWS trying for positive change. There's a 1% within OWS that spawned it and directs it that guarantees it a fail.
And please clarify on this Soros NATO thing where you say "NATO by way of "democratic" Soros spawned movements (yes, like OWS) is bringing governments down by pitting military against the .01% trying to wake up the 98% about the 1% actually causing the problem. It's like pissing in the wind."
What are you talking about when you say "There's a 1% within OWS that spawned it and directs it that guarantees it a fail."? I honestly don't know what you mean.
If this site is representative of the movement, we have serious problems. This is a frame-up aimed at guaranteeing the final stages outlined in The Communist Manifesto-whereby the 1% "we" are complaining about uses the disconnect between the OWS movement and the rest of the (clueless or adequately placated) 99% at home in a judo-like move that takes our weight and momentum and uses it against us... All spoils to the 1% as martial law sweeps the land. Read The Communist Manifesto- not saying this is a communist movement-I'm saying this has all played out many times before-exactly the same conditions, different times and places, different labels... LOTS of the same symbolism and some of the exact provocateurs in charge. OSI I'm talking to u
OK, I'm trying to understand. Who is OSI? Also - this is so incredibly different than state imposed communism. How can you even draw vague parallel much less direct one? Nothing centralized about this. FBI, CIA, DHS and CORPORATE private security forces don't have a clue who to go after or how.
Open Society Institute. Google Soros OSI and Bosnia, an upraised fist as one text string. He runs over 1000 NGOs in the name of democracy-it's all about using well intentioned people like you-the mob rule chaos to get blood in the streets and then go after EVERYONE. It's how it always happens. That single link will tell you everything they don't want you to know as far as where we are in history you were never taught. Rock on and teAch others
Soros??? You are saying George Soros is creating chaos so he can take over? Are you mad? Can you find no other explanation for why people would rise up other than blaming it on George Soros? Could they maybe be rising up due to some legitimate issues? I really don't understand where you're coming from. You're going to have to put it in plain English and stop referring me to links. I am trying to understand what you're saying. Please be clear.
Learn real history. http://www.gemworld.com/USAVSUS.HTM so you know what we are fighting. It's 500years old-this consolidated money power everyone wants to end but can't because they don't know what it is. Study the enemy
Your mistake appears to be in attempting to lay a label on the whole, in avoidance of the parts. People have very good reason to rise up. I'm saying there's a 1% faction within the movement-it was spawned by them, framed the way they like it (leaderless-BS-peaceful-BS why else thr upraised soviet fist meme-fractured to break down when they pay some goons to blow it apart-google the parts I mention. Soros is a pro-pointman for the banking cartel everyone is fighting without wisdom. Sure-I'll stop referring you to links and spend 5 hours holding your hand. I give you one link and you can learn, or you can be part of the problem you are trying to stop. Good luck
Jeez dude. Here you have somebody giving you the time of day, listening to what you're saying and you're giving me a hard time for asking you to clarify what you're getting at?? What I am saying to you is that you're going to have to come out and say clearly what you are getting at if you want people to listen. You're making it a maze. You really need to be clear and concise. No one is going to want to read your details unless you can make your case convincingly in three or four sentences. Are you saying Soros is representing banking interests and that his ultimate goal in helping to fund revolution is to then gather everyone and do something to them??? This sounds far fetched. Do I have it wrong?
Soros is the head goon for the Rothchild banking cartel. Is that concise enough? The Federal Reserve and every other central bank on Earth, except 3 countries now (Iran, Cuba, north Korea) are controlled by this cartel. Start with that fact-verify it. Then lay off of that trail because it's designed to defeat you-go to the link and study history framed in a way that gives you the how, instead of the who. It IS a maze. It took me years to learn this. You can either take a shortcut and study the maze from above, or run around inside it like it's not there. http://www.gemworld.com/USAVSUS.HTM this single site contained more valuable info than dozens I've had to search and weed out the disinfo. Soros is an evil bastard. The people he works for-far more powerful. This maze is over 500yrs of consolidated power and psycho subterfuge-it's not possible to render to 3 or 4 sentences. If it were, why those folks we need to topple would actually be worried. I'll be glad to carry on with you as long as you take time to research the topic
I don't disagree, but I'm not ready to give up.
I only mentioned Egypt in the context of the power of social media. The events unfolding there worry me too !
Sorry to imply giving up is the answer-absolutely NEVER give up!
Exactly. I was up late last night moving my Christmas shopping guidelines to an external site so folks can twitter them, share on facebook, etc. See http://bit.ly/vof9WH . If you like it, then spread that http://bit.ly/vof9WH link as far and wide as you can. Let's see if we can get something going !
I'll chek it out. Please take time to review the cause of our problem-which is a disconnect in understanding. We just have not been taught the truth http://www.gemworld.com/USAVSUS.HTM
Good post weepngwillo2. But, you might want to discuss "The PURPOSE of Government". Western governments have lost their way when it comes to purpose.
IMO, The Purpose of Government can be articulated as easily as "to protect and enhance the lives of all peoples."
Thoughts ?
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That's it in a nutshell... the laughter still echoes while the fight has only just begun.
:-)
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I think they are well done with the laughing. They are trying to put on a brave face, and keep their faithful laughing - Newt's comments 'take a bath, get a job' - but there is this thing here that clearly indicates the fight is just beginning:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-stre/
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/CLGF-msnbc.pdf
These people can be quite serious. Keep your sense of humor - but don't kid yourselves. This is serious.
It is very very serious. I agree completely. This moves into a whole new phase now. The 1% are talking to their private security firms, government contacts, corporate political strategists and lobbyists.
I'm guessing Job 1 will be to discredit the movement via deliberate misinformation and misleading framing.
Job 2 will probably be to attempt to shut down or regularly disrupt this site and twitter/Facebook feeds.
Job 3 will be to plant highly skilled professional private security to incite violence that appears to come from OWS. This will likely be paired with deliberate "leaks" to press as to where to show up to get a great story.
Job 4 will likely be to investigate, publicize and discredit those that they believe are leaders.
All are wrong. Yet I firmly believe they'll attempt all four and many other methods.
Right now would be an excellent time to read King, Gandhi and Gene Sharp. Our tactics will help the movement rise but the mindset will be the engine. Stay strong!!!
I am with you.
It begins with the mind!
What we do today will echo in eternity!!
If we remain active, strong and nonviolent, it surely will.
I think it's inevitable - but we do have a lot of work to do.
Hell yes we do. Months. Years. This is just beginning.
I know - it just doesn't seem like it - I've been waiting for you guys. I think for awhile I had given up.
Many have been preparing for years for this. So many are ready. Wonderful to see so many great people emerge. Just beautiful.
PR is one of the main tools that groups do when they are being protested against. By evaluating protests from recent history, we will see that this is common response that is to be expected.
The Project Chanology article on Wikipedia shows what Scientologist organizations did to try to discredit a group of activists against them. There were a lot of glossy productions, scare tactics, media lies, and even a professionally-produced DVD mailed directly to some activists' homes in an attempt to scare them away:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology
Well, the movement has certainly got the "then they laugh at you" and "then they fight you:"
The movement is a “growing mob” (House majority leader Eric Cantor) or “shiftless protestors” (The Tea Party Express) or “pure, genuine parasites,” “bored trust-fund kids” (Rush Limbaugh) or is engaged in “class warfare.” “This is a coordinated movement on the part of unions and Obama supporters to distract the American people from the real problem.” (GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain) or the movement is made up of… people who need to “take a shower and get a job.” “There really isn’t a uniform theme here. They don’t know what they want.” (Bill O’Reilly) or “If you put every left wing cause in a blender and hit power, this is the sludge you’d get. It’s basically anti-capitalism, and they want to redistribute the wealth.” (Jesse Watters, FOXnation) “700 left-wing, radical hippie protestors.” “The people [in the movement] take a crap on cop cars and have sex in public.” “It’s a pig pen out there.” ”They’re trust-fund babies.” ”This radicalism is class warfare inspired by leading Democrats.” “Who gets the bailouts? It’s Barack Obama!” (Sean Hannity) “These are the spawn of the worst excesses of the ideological left…. This is manufactured chaos, manufactured crises. It has been since day one, and we’re seeing all of the ugly, wretched, criminal manifestations of it.” (Michelle Malkin) They have even been called… “Radicals, revolutionaries, Communists and Islamists that are working together to destroy Capitalism and the Western way of life. They’re calling for the violent overthrow of the United States government.” (Glenn Beck)
(From my article posted at: http://thegreatrecession.info/blog/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-now-unoccupied-but-stronger/
Now, what remains to be seen is the win part. I think if the movement can do what many movements of the sixties failed to do and keep itself from breaking laws and from violence, then it can WIN mainstream public opinion. Right now, I think most of the country is with the movement, though mainstream Republican commentators like Limbaugh and Hannity seem to be largely speaking against it.
--Knave Dave http://www.TheGreatRecession.info/blog
Keep posting, Knave Dave! You should write for Jon Stewart! I'll check out your other posts!
I agree that we don't need the tactics of the sixties. The sixties lacked the ability to communicate...it was difficult to form a united front. Violence made headlines. There wasn't much of a forum for sharing rational and well thought out solutions. I have faith that this generation has the intelligence and the means to put together a successful movement to right the current wrongs. ONE MORE POINT...I would appreciate it if they could revive the music! maybe tweak the lyrics a bit! "Look what's comin' down Wall Street!"
Thanks a lot, drball. I appreciate it. (Send Jon a note and let him know. I'd be happy to take the assignment ; )
Good points, too, about how there is all the less need for violence with so much better and more open communication (like this forum) available for influencing people.
--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog
I agree. Staying peaceful and reasonable will win hearts and minds.
I want you all to know, The world is no longer watching, The world has paused... And now the world is listening.
More and more people are asking me about Occupy. They want details. They want news. They want to truly KNOW what is going on. I tell them and now have my own (very small) group of people who get their daily updates from me. Support is growing and the more pressure that is applied, the more society is forced to ask that age old question of "why"?
You are supported. The world is listening.
Very cool. Great comment. So what do you tell people who ask what this movement is about and where it's heading?
somewhere before ignore and laugh especially the GOP
i agree, we are between laugh and fight, but what most people don't realize is you people have started something that cannot be stopped anymore. The polls are bullshit, the media runs polls. There are 100s of millions of people that are with you, most of us are in non urban and rural locations which make it more difficult to support but when it comes time to go all in I think you will see a mass of people moving like the world has never seen before. We have been waiting for you, the spark that lights the fuse. The movement must nesseccarily morph into something else but that will happen if we don't force issue. I absolutely agree with leaderless movement, we is always smarter than me. accept and incorporate good ideas and reject and eliminate poor ideas. If this movement stays We, we cannot lose. If it changes to collection of I's it's all over.
You fought them, you laughed at them, they fought you back and they won.
Watch this the whole way through. Don't stop after one minute or two. Watch all 4 minutes and then let me know who is winning: http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-says-it-all-what-were-up-against-and-how-we-w/#comment-413580
You won.
VIVA LA HUELGA!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf-vdW-EhMY
Gandhi's "peaceful" revolution wasn't really peaceful at all. There were attacks on the British army all through WW2 by independance partisans, there were even local revolutionary governments (like Azad Hind) that formed their own military forces and declared war on Britain. There were violent mutinies among British Indian forces just before the transfer of power - some years after Gandhi's civil disobedience campaigns had more or less petered out. The whole idea of India gaining its independance through purely nonviolent means is a total myth.
Gandhi and his supporters remained nonviolent and that's why British were forced out of India. You can toss as much dust on that as you like. It's just a fact.
Actually it isn't a fact at all. Sure Gandhi remained nonviolent. But the simple fact is, the British left because of mutinies in the Indian forces, bombings against government buildings, and a series of high-profile assassinations in London itself (eg Michael O'Dwyer) as well as numerous officials in India (eg Colonel Simpson, the Inspector General of Prisons).
By this time, Gandhi's movement was pretty much over. It had been dead for a couple of years. But the British had no one else to transfer power to that wasn't shooting at them.
You can ignore the significance of Gandhi and his supporters nonviolence in pushing British out of India and play up whatever other factors you like. Doesn't change the fact that it was the nonviolent movement that did it.
Sorry, but the nonviolent movement didn't "do it". This is a media myth - look into the actual history, and you will see.
Gandhi definately played a role, its pretty subjective how large a role, but there is not a historian on the planet who would agree that the British would have left without the mutinies, bombings, and armed attacks. They probably wouldn't have left without Gandhi too, but nonetheless. It was, in the end, events like the Bombay Mutiny that directly led them to leave, not Gandhi's sit-ins.
So you take away from this calculation you've come up with the idea that nonviolence isn't as powerful as we thought? Or that we need to reserve option of being violent? If so, you're wrong on both counts.
There is no historical example of a nonviolent revolution. So it depends on what you want to achieve. A total transformation of government and society? Then there will be violence. The elites won't give up their power without a fight. It's never happened. If, on the other hand, all you want is a few reforms, and maybe for a couple of expendable fall guys to face criminal charges, well that is achievable without committing violence.
You can equate "fight" with violence and then say they won't give up power without a "fight" and convince a few people out there. But your definition will be suspect for most. They know that non-violent struggle (ala Gene Sharp, Gandhi and King is more forceful than violence. The only people you'll attract with your line of reasoning is the small percentage who can't see through the obvious false assumption.
I am also surprised that you would look at the world's violent revolutions and be so impressed by them that you would want to imitate them going forward. Odd.
Please explain to me what would have happened here if students had reacted with violence instead of nonviolent tactics (gotta watch all the way to the end to get the full concept): http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-says-it-all-what-were-up-against-and-how-we-w/#comment-413580
Let's compare the results using nonviolence that actually happened versus what would have happened using what you call "a fight". Seriously. It's right there before your very eyes if you watch all 4 minutes. All the answers you need.
You can equate "fight" with violence and then say they won't give up power without a "fight" and convince a few people out there. But your definition will be suspect for most. They know that non-violent struggle (ala Gene Sharp, Gandhi and King is more forceful than violence.
Gandhi, we have already dealt with. King didn't achieve a revolution: he achieved reform. Like I said you don't necessarily need violence to reform the system. But there is no state in the world that will agree to its own demise: if they are able, they will use as much violence as necessary to defend the state, even from the population.
The only people you'll attract with your line of reasoning
I don't care to modify my ideas to make them more appealing.
I am also surprised that you would look at the world's violent revolutions and be so impressed by them that you would want to imitate them going forward. Odd.
You're making a huge assumption there. Who said I was a revolutionary? All I want is reform. I'm perfectly happy with a return to Keynesian economic principles. I'm just pointing out that if you hope to overthrow the state with sit-ins and rallies, you're dreaming. Reform is one thing, revolution is quite another.
Please explain to me what would have happened here if students had reacted with violence instead of nonviolent tactics (gotta watch all the way to the end to get the full concept)
Well nothing good, obviously. Violence by revolutionaries wouldn't be seen as legitimate at this stage (we're just not that desperate quite yet), so it would go badly. But a revolution is the emergence of a new social order, a legitimate social order, and it must provide security for the population from all illegitimate attempts to impose authority by force, and that includes not only common criminals but the previous state as well. It must assume a monopoly on legitimate use of force. That's true even of anarchist "states" like the Makhnovists or northern Spain in the civil war.
Still widely ignored. Most people either don't know about this or are biased against it thanks to the media. That will change with time as long as reason and sobriety trumps passion. Mob rule is anarchy.
I'd say we're at the laughing stage. I was in a Safeway store a couple of days back, and a kid was throwing a temper tantrum. Someone said "He's occupying Safeway!" and everyone laughed. Folks then started chiming in with more demeaning comparisons to OWS. Also see http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-november-16-2011/occupy-wall-street-divided
By the way, I compiled the shopping guidelines from a forum post and hosted them at http://bit.ly/vof9WH so they'd be widely accessible and sharable via social networks. Check them out and, if you agree, spread the http://bit.ly/vof9WH link as far and wide as possible; we need a LOT of folks on-board if we're to have an impact !
Right on!
Much as I wish it wasn't the case, I think we are firmly in the "laugh at you" stage and will have to endure a bit more before we reach the "fight you" stage. At least here in the US I feel this is true. In countries like Egypt and Greece it is clear they've progressed.
Of course, it's better than being in the ignore stage I reckon. =)
Which way will it go? Who knows really, if Americans are anything they are fickle when spoon fed by the MSM. If enough people can shut off the T.V. and do a little hard research the 1% may soon have no choice but to fight.
Well, I'm laughing.
Keep laughing and stay tuned.
Dopamine highs eventually burn out.
Yes, but there's nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come. You can keep burying your head in the sand. Meanwhile this movement is transforming into a revolution. Pay close attention and fasten your seatbelt. Peaceful nonresistance is a powerful and beautiful thing. We're about to see once again why nonviolent direct action can bring successful revolution.
I was directly referring to the fact that your notion of self-importance is the product of a chemical imbalance which at the moment makes you feel powerful, but will ultimately leave you weak. Good day.
Id say from all the people being criminally assaulted by police...that we are in the beginning of the fighting stage. People dont realize this but they are occupying against powers that are not yet publicly identified and they have no laws to follow...our government is a cover for the true powers that be....world banks.
So what should we expect their reaction to be? Can you offer a few hypotheticals so we can think through this?
i'm still laughing at you....
Keep laughing and stay tuned.
trust me, i will
Isn't that what happened to us? They ignored us in the beginning thought OWS was just a fad. Then they laughed at us, which they did a lot of. I believe we are in the third phase here--where they fight us Look at the lobbyist letter that demanded a full attack on OWS and that is just one lobbyist letter intercepted. Who knows how many lobbyists, organizations, and who else are out to destroy this movement. The "movement hit men" are out there and they seek to carry out their mission. Keep your eyes open!!! We need to not allow them to destroy this movement. Fight the good fight to the very end. They can't silence us!!!
The people united can never be defeated. The key is to be active in your local general assembly, organize, resist nonviolently and stay strong.
If this is a process then one needs to ask "What is its purpose?" All processes start with a PURPOSE. That's step one. It goes like this.....
You might want to start by discussing the PURPOSE of Government.
So what is your version of what is the purpose, process and measurement? Please give me your view.
Rather than retype everything a second time please go to this link....
http://occupywallst.org/forum/lets-discuss-the-purpose-of-government/
for a better understanding.... Wolf
OK read it. So, now what's the process and the measurement?
Purpose of Government: " To protect and enhance the lives of all citizens".
Process: All policies that adhere to the purpose.
Measurement: Do the policies work and meet the Purpose?
The Purpose is open to discussion. It has to be clear, succinct, easily understood and agreed upon by the majority.
therising..... So what's your statement of Purpose of Government ?
This is your meme. You need to put forth what the process and measurement are.
No !
It's clear that you're not a visionary. Many people don't get it. I am always struck that when people want to pursue PROCESS AND MEASUREMENT **before dealing with PURPOSE"... this separate the visionaries from the mediocre.
The visionary Governments of the western world (like the U.S.A.) had a set of core values that were unchanging and a core purpose that fueled everything that their governments did. This worked for a long time. BUT...
Since the inception of corporations those values have changed. Especially in the last decades with Corporations HUGH influence on Governments. As a result, the PURPOSE of western governments has changed. It's not working for ALL people anymore.
In my post, I'm suggesting that the Occupy movements begin to have the discussion on PURPOSE. Discussing PROCESS and MEASUREMENT at this stage is simply not helpful.
Having that discussion, agreeing upon PURPOSE, and being able to clearly articulate a CORE PURPOSE is and must be a Government's fundamental reason for being.
An effective PURPOSE reflects the importance that ALL people attach to their Government's work—it taps their idealistic motivations — and gets at the deeper reasons for their Government's existence.
PURPOSE isn’t everything, but it trumps everything else. Sure, every Government must also have strong leadership, management, planning, execution, strategy and tactics, innovation, and more, but it's my belief that it all has to start with a PURPOSE. That is the hinge that everything else hangs upon.
Again, if you'd like to discuss PURPOSE, please share your statement of what that should be. We can go from there. Hopefully, others who believe in the OCCUPY movement will join in.
in Gandhi situation they know there enemy (British)they speck and look diffrent., in our case the enamy is within
SAME ENEMY -ENGLAND won The Civil War...last battle of The Revolutionary War, when you take the long view of history. 500 years of British Imperialism-we are just becoming obsolete as their mercenaries of choicehttp://www.gemworld.com/USAVSUS.HTM
We are solidly at stage three, as evidenced by the CLGF memo. They are no longer laughing. Two months to get to stage three, probably two years to get to stage four, at least.
I think it may be faster....
I hope so. And I'd be inclined to defer to your opinion as opposed to many on this site, you seem to have a bit of an inside track compared to most of us.
The key to me is that both protestors and middle America are being lifted towards revolution by the winds of unemployment. Political and business leaders can try as hard as they like to pin the movement down but the combination of the force of the updraft and the intelligence of protestors will combine to render the politicians and business leaders impotent.
They say there's nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come. Well. Those who are overly confident that they can preserve the status quo better fasten their seatbelts. This is a perfect storm, a positive storm that will wash the landscape clean.
Wait until you see how many 99% candidates occupy Congress in a few years. Our republic and its original ideals will no longer be a quaint memory behind a velvet rope. Those original ideals are about to take center stage again. Nothing can stop this so long as we remain nonviolent.
Agreed. Control Congress and everything else is attainable. Today Congress, tomorrow the World! ;-)
Rock n roll. Incumbents have no clue what's about to happen. A nonviolent coup. A peaceful forceful revolution.
Those old-schoolers have no clue how to handle this thing. Kinda like MacArthur during the Vietnam War. Remember though, the feds are monitoring this site so they will have an idea as to our potential future plans of action. Not sure if they'll be able to do anything about it though, short of declaring all of us terrorists and shipping us off. Don't shoot 'till you see the whites of their eyes!!
There's nothing they can do. Nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come. Nothing. The harder they push back, the bigger it gets. Soon we'll be making DECISIONS from a position of unified power (the 99%) instead of making demands from a position of divided weakness..
I believe that, because we'll be using their own system to do it. Ballots not bullets. Polls not poles. The big picture is coming into focus (for me anyway). The fog is lifting. The path is becoming clear.
So damn cool.
Right now they are laughing but beginning to fight back. We have a long road ahead of us, it isn't going to be easy. We will have to remain strong against personal attacks, political attacks, manipulation by the media, etc. More so we must remain united. They will try to divide our attentions to the other issues that will still remain for the country to decide on once this has played out. The 99% is not only equal to the challenge of ousting political corruption, but will be repeating history by doing so.
Awesome
Excellent, therising! This should be the motto of OCCUPY. Real revolutionaries are in it for the long haul...and they chuckle at the naysayers and ridiculers. We who laugh last will laugh best.
We are experience all 4 simultaneously.
The media is once again ignoring the issues now that they have broken up the camps.
The paid puppets of the corporate media (FOX News) and 1% Trolls laugh to mask their fear and horror of being completely exposed.
The fight us with pepper spray, batons and imprisonment when we re-gather
and... we have already won because the consciousness of the world has already been pierced. The concept of the 99% is now a apart of the History Books.
The goal is not completely achieved, but it is a different world from 6 months ago because of 2 months of sacrifice already has changed the discourse of the world.
It really is incredible
Yeah i dont get it. I have never seen anything like it. I have no respect for the mainstream media. I guess its just could blame them on hand. The tops dogs make 500k a year. U thimk al rokker is gonna actually do journalism. No he's gomna teach you how to bast a turkey while thousanda protest social disenfraschisment on the streets of NY.
On the other hand it totally lacks integrity and morality. Dont bite the hands that feeds. Media black out. They are totally isolated. For me personally i have a job i am doing ok. Why i get it, is that i see returning patriots combat veterns hard working americans not being able to find jobs once they leave the mil. I know guys personally serving with missing limbs fighting to stay in becaz theu kno their are kno jobs to support their families. It breaks me heart. Theb i see the media mock this movement. What happend to america?
What a shame
We're at the laughter stage, but we shouldn't become complacent believing that we are assured success because we have started a process. We need to be able to sustain the movement and push through real political change. Change that can reorganize Washington and the financial sector.
I'd say every situation has its unique set of circumstances. Ghandi followed up marches and protests with civil disobedience (like breaking the "salt laws"). The Civil Rights movement had its march on Washington (with over 200,000 protesters). They mobilized something like 2,000 buses to move people to DC, artists like Bob Dylan performed, etc. Of course they also had Martin Luther King.
I think some talented spokespeople will emerge but not leaders, at least until congressional elections.
I'd say eviction, destruction of your private property, throwing smoke bombs, pepper spraying you...
Counts as fighting.
How can you be evicted when you didn't have a lease? Parks are allowed to have rules so long as the rules are applied the same to all. So, if the park does not allow camping without a permit, its managers have the right to make the permits for the time length they see fit or the time length their rules allow. The rest is fighting. You are right. Don't join in. The press will show the police being violent, and the protestors being kind to them in response, and the public sympathy will go to the good at heart.
--Knave Dave http://www.TheGreatRecession.info/Blog
You could say that we are at the point where they are fighting us, but then the different sections are not equally distant because it seems to me that we are a long, long way from winning. In reality we are probably at the stage where they are ignoring us, though it doesn't feel that way to us. I suspect they don't think they are fighting us any more than we have any vindictiveness when we step on an ant. We barely notice it. Perhaps not at all, but it's a very big deal, a matter of life and death to the ant.
Read the following in the NY Times today:
"Coverage dipped markedly, to just 1 percent of the national news hole, in the week beginning Nov. 6, supporting Ms. Shepard’s assertion that it had “died down” before the early morning eviction in New York last Tuesday. It has since rebounded strongly."
So, the press was starting to ignore the movement, but the evictions have actually resulted in the Occupy Wall Street movement's favor. Suddenly the movement was no longer ignored.
--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/Blog
I agree
Laughing and fighting.
They start fighting when they are afraid they are losing. They start laughing when they are not.
ignoring
good call
I'd say testing the waters to edge toward fight.
what makes you think Ghandi's principle applies here?
Ghandi had a righteous cause.
"gimme gimme gimme" is not a righteous cause, it is a Black Flag song.
Gimme gimme gimme? I don't understand. What do you mean? Please explain.
Gimme Gimme Gimme is the last track on side 1 of Black Flag's punk rock masterpiece Damaged.
Great. How is that relevant?
you asked me about Gimme Gimme Gimme. you may not know it, but it isn't just the ows motto.
OWS motto? What do you mean?
if this is confusing, I'd rather not waste my time with you.
OK thanks.
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The part where you think you are winning-just before they kik your aszes. The majority of you are unaware how you are aiding to usher in the final stages outlined in The Communist Manifesto. while everyone continues to shout for Democracy-few realize we are a republic - that the legal structure of the republic is the only thing standing between the Federal feudalists operating their corporate U.S. from the District of Columbia, reeling in every "citizen" by fooling them into relinquishing their rights under the Constitution. Research please, and understand-you are fighting 500 years of corporate consolidation-British Imperialism-via The Old World Order-centrally directed international banks-Federal Reserve inclusive. http://www.gemworld.com/USAVSUS.HTM
Over 1 million people died in Ghandi's "nonviolent" protests.
What is your point and where does your stat come from?
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We are being atracked for sure. The irony is the more they say, the more we are just inspired. The old tricks arent working. In the 60s the people had jobs to worry about. They had steel to make and things to produce. Not now the economy is shuttered, there is no back bone; manufacturing is not coming back. Honestly i dont kno whats gonna happen. I hope for the best. It is interesting to watch the decaying corporate structure take some last desparate swings. Its like courtiers in France before the revolution. Let them eat cake. How did that work out. Ha
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Gandhi is seriously overrated, and was actually a racist who regarded black Africans as racially inferior to whites and Indians. This is actually not a new revelation (there was a high profile piece about this in Time magazine some years back), but it has just recently been in the news again with the publication of a new biography about him:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/28/mahatma-gandhi-bisexual-_n_841410.html
Congratulations. You just attempted to trash Gandhi. But sorry, dirt lthrowing like this doesn't stick. Who's next? Mother Theresa?
Gandhi's racist attitudes are well established facts, however shocking they may be to ignorant people such as yourself familiar only with the myth of Gandhi as some sort of saint. Even his defenders acknowledge it. Only fools deny facts they don't like.
Speaking of Mother Theresa, hate to burst yet another of your rosey colored bubbles but you should read Christopher Hitchens' expose of her, "The Missionary Position". She was indeed another extremely flawed person who is widely perceived as a paragon of virtue by the ignorant.
Wow. You're good and you're on a roll. Don't stop now. You've trashed Gandhi and Mother Theresa. How about Jesus and Martin Luther King, Jr.?
I've cited sevaral sources for my remarks and can cite more; you have yet to cite one to support your denial of the facts. You're not much diffent from the sort of person who can't accept the 'mean lies!' their 'liberal professor' tells about Columbus.
You're really being very shallow here. I was myself shocked when I first heard these less savory facts about Gandhi's character. However, I did more reading and found that they are indeed true.
If you can refute the facts, do so. If not, don't wallow in ignorance.
I will read what you wrote. But before I do -- I have to ask. You ignored my question. So can I assume Jesus and MLK are O.K. In your book? I'm asking this because I'm trying to get perspective in people you do respect so I understand your system for determining which leaders are good.
Yeah, MLK is fine. Jesus is a little more complicated because he's a figure that is known virtually entirely from religious literature. I think a lot of the statements attributed to Jesus are admirable, but at the same time, I don't believe in any of the supernatural elements of the narrative and its historicity is dubious. I would recommend reading some of the work of Bart Ehrman on Jesus; he points out how much of the gospels are contradictory and historically dubious.
The short answer would be no, I don't think Jesus is a 'bad figure', but he's also not a well understood figure (in the sense some of these other people are).
As for Gandhi, I never said he was completely without merit; his positive attributes are of course well known to most. The fact is there was a dark side to him however and so it is ironic that he is seen as such a purely virtuous figure. I don't think his bad qualities completely cancel out his good qualities, but they demand we take a more complex, challenging view of him. It's interesting but obviously somewhat disappointing.
Well, we all have flaws and a dark side. I just don't see the relevance. All it proves is that they were human. What's the problem?
It's relevant because in the case of Gandhi, his flaws/dark side are so at odds with the popular image of the man. The real man was more complex and morally conflicted than the saintly figure of legend. If Gandhi was famous for, say, being a physicist or a doctor, these particular flaws, while disturbing, wouldn't be as disturbing as they are because he is so often thought of as a uniquely and profoundly loving, moral man. He was cited as an inspiration by MLK. So for him to have held racist views towards anyone, much less blacks who suffered under apartheid with him, is significant and especially disturbing.
By comparison, Isaac Newton is known to have been a great scientist as well as a rather reprehensible person in many ways morally by modern standards. He had people severely punished for what would today be considered petty crimes. But these moral failings aren't as relevant because Newton isn't regarded as great in a moral context, but in a scientific one. Gandhi's fame however is in large measure tied specifically to one who set a high moral standard for humanity; this is what makes such revelations both especially relevant and disturbing.
In any event, this whole subthread has taken on a life of it's own tangential to your initial post. I like the quote you posted, there's a lot about Gandhi to admire. However, anyone familiar with the other side of the man will feel compelled to mention it when they see a Gandhi hagiography.
Gandhi was a lawyer and never claimed to be a special man. I just don't understand (and I know I've asked this before) what this has to do with Occupy movement following King and Gandhi's tactics?
I'm glad you like the quote by the way. nd I'm glad you admire him for his accomplishments.
I'm fascinated that you seem to be a student of hypocrisy. Have you thought about turning that skill loose with field of presidential candidates. ?
I agree. We can start by boycotting Toshiba. Here is a list of their crimes:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/computers/toshiba.html
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2213279355#!/group.php?gid=2213279355&v=wall
http://www.boycottowl.com/Toshiba/79
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They disregard you. You're nothing.
Your right, and unfortunately, whether you like it or not, are disregarded too. Does that make you nothing?
Don't be so quick to level such harsh judgment, you may be looking in the mirror/
I was talking about the self important ows people.
Self important OWS people? Please explain.
They think they're doing something big,..........they're just pawns of soros.
Is that the only explanation you can come up with. Hilarious. So, it couldn't be that the millions of people who support this movement have legitimate concerns. It must be that they were tricked by an evil mild mannered billionaire. Funny.
tricked? you said it , not me.
So that's your fanciful explanation. Soros tricked all these people to spend their time protesting????
Some of the ows people are being paid to be there. Some think they're doing something "important", those people are being used and would easily be discarded by soros after their"usefulness" is no longer needed.
So you are a conspiracy theorist
No, factualist.