Forum Post: Establishment is trying to steer this forum. Tired about hearing left vs. right. OWS is above that.
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 4, 2011, 6:47 a.m. EST by warriorjoe7
(232)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Not interested in hearing about GOP vs Dems, or several other strawman arguments.
Remember, the establishment wants to either suppress or co-opt this movement. It's all about divide and conquer my friend.
If you can turn 51% of this movement against 49 percent then 49% gets cancelled out and they only have to fight 2%. Be on the lookout for trolls (peopletrying to divide, people trying to discourage, people trying to twist the truth, people trying to discredit the movement.)
It's true that some people legitimately don't like the movement of their own free will... but we should try to win them over with some logic and reasoning. We should not be trying to steer people for or against the left or right. This is about steering the oppressed against the oppressors. they are on both sides and so should we be
Just focus on WallSt. Focus on them. A powerful message.
Don't let them get you play the good cop -bad cop game of partisan politics.
Target the enemy, cast light on him. Banksters, not their puppets.
Wall St. per se isn't the problem. The problem is that our government promotes the interests of the wealthy over the interests of all the people. We can be political without being partisan.
Free the servants of the people from their WallSt masters. Focus on WallSt.
Corrupt government officials are not helpless. They chose to sell out the people they are supposed to represent.
It's not a moral issue. The tide is too strong for a good-willing person.
Systematic corruption is a result of institutional design. Corrupt politicians change the laws, open the flood gates for more corruption.
So better focus on WallSt, focus on those billionaires who pay the lobbyists and the corporations which steal public money.
There are a few in congress who have not sold out, so obviously there are people with integrity. I will not excuse those who have done otherwise.
I agree with you that it is also an institutional problem and the money makes it very difficult for good people to get elected. We need to amend the constitution to get the corruption out of our government.
http://movetoamend.org/
Wall street is not obligated to protect all of the American people, only their clients. It is our government which is supposed to represent all of us.
in support of this and from this blog... http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/why-occupy-wall-street-is-bigger-than-left-vs-right-20111017
"The banks know this. They know they have no "natural" constituency among voters, which is why they spend such fantastic amounts of energy courting the mainstream press and such huge sums lobbying politicians on both sides of the aisle.
The only way the Goldmans and Citis and Bank of Americas can survive is if they can suck up popular political support indirectly, either by latching onto such vague right-populist concepts as "limited government" and "free-market capitalism" (ironic, because none of them would survive ten minutes without the federal government's bailouts and other protections) or, alternatively, by presenting themselves as society's bulwark against communism, lefty extremism, Noam Chomsky, etc.
All of which is a roundabout way of saying one thing: beware of provocateurs on both sides of the aisle. This movement is going to attract many Breitbarts, of both the left and right variety. They're going to try to identify fake leaders, draw phony battle lines, and then herd everybody back into the same left-right cage matches of old. Whenever that happens, we just have to remember not to fall for the trap. When someone says this or that person speaks for OWS, don't believe it. This thing is bigger than one or two or a few people, and it isn't part of the same old story. "
They don't fear the Tea because the "movement" got its red herring. White Trash is tricked into hating taxes for the super-rich.
But the banksters fear OWS because it's difficult to give a red herring to them.
I'd like to focus on wallstreet and target the enemy by applying a sales tax to their stock trades. Please sign, support or e-mail my petition link to all your friends if you agree.
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/apply-1-sales-tax-all-stock-trades/MvZMMp0k?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl
You mean a small Tobin tax? The idea got wide support by governments around the world, except the United States.
I would go for stronger antitrust rules for the financial sector and fire walls: Too big to fail --> size 'em down.
So this explains Occupy Broadway how?
Movements die on their own when they fail to produce anything. Instead of worrying about someone from the outside trying to divide it, this movement should move into politics and begin to exercise it's power.
There are Occupy groups everywhere, people could be found to run in primaries against incumbents. A win or even a close loss would shake up the politicians and get some of the things the movement seeks done.Any group that has votes has power. Environmental groups, civil rights, NRA, AARP, they get listened to and get laws made, because they have a voting block.
If OWS dies it's going to be because it failed to do anything more then talk and demonstrate. It won't be some outside group that does it in.
You're absolutely right, and I remember a quote from when I was an activist. "The Democratic Party has been the graveyard of every progressive movement in the 20th (now it's the 21st) century. I agree that the twin capitalist parties are a sham, and fool people into thinking we have a choice. And about the trolls. Thanks, great comment.
Yes OWS is above party lines. I don't care if this movement leans left as long as they continue to address the real issues before us. I told a friend today "I am not afraid of the left right now." I'm afraid of Goldman Sachs, Monsanto, Dow, Exxon, Blackwater and the rest of the corporate oligarchs.
Left & Right are the 99%. Both are duped. Left wants borrowing & gov to create jobs that the Fed should be creating. Right wants the Fed to hold 0% inflation and is even willing to risk deflation. All of this to protect the assets of the 1% and at the expense of jobs now & generations worth of debt that didn't have to happen. That is more significant a theft from the 99% than the 2008 crisis was.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57336042/prosecuting-wall-street/ Congress and the Pres knows, but do nothing. Together all branches of the Federal Government have become corrupt. There is no more check or balance.
Beyond "Left" vs. "Right"
http://occupywallst.org/forum/approaching-a-metapolitical-discourse/
http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse
Please, check out themultitude.org!
Cast Light on them and their Federal Reserve System!
Allowing the Federal Reserve to exist and force us to use their Federal Reserve Debt Notes was the start of the downfall of our economic future.
Those Federal Reserve Notes are just like your house or car note... they are debt instruments but you can't pay them off... you lose about 5% every year we continue using them. That's why our dollar is so worthless. I bought my first car with only $3000 $1.00 bills. Now it would take near a wheel barrel full of $1.00 bills to buy a new car. That's because the Federal Reserve Notes are designed that way. It is a way of stealing from you. When we used silver dollars, they could not clip a little off each coin because we would notice. They could not steal directly from the vault because we would notice it. So they found a way to steal using just plain paper for our trade and commerce.
Everyone should know by now that those banksters are not Federal and that there is no Reserve at least for our benefit and the the Notes indicate debt for us as long as we allow the use of the Federal Reserve Notes... Demand... we go back to Constitutional money.
Do you know what Constitutional money is? It is central to our freedom under the Constitution! As long as they can destroy your ability to have a rich financial future. they have taken your freedom for everything else away too!
Who are you trying to protect from inflation? When inflation occurs it only harms people who hold their money in a bank and do not invest it. People should try investing their money to beat inflation instead of just sitting on it in a bank. If one cannot invest one's money intelligently then one is going to lose it. I am glad that inflation forces people to invest smartly and deters people from just taking their savings out of the economy. That's a good thing. So, when we have high unemployment liquidity must be increased to stimulate growth. Inflation may or may not occur, it's beside the point. However, if inflation does occur then wages go up too, and inflation forces investors to invest smartly to beat inflation, which seems all around good to me. Inflation & deflation concerns are really irrelevant and beside the point anyway, if the Fed is concerned about inflation then it is being a market manipulator IMHO. The Fed should create or destroy liquidity as necessary to hold unemployment at 5% to keep the economy productive. A productive economy, not market manipulation, should be the goal of the Fed.
The only people co-opting the movement are the unions. If any politician says he understands your concerns or even agrees with you, you think they're trying to co-opt the movement? There isn't enough support, nor voting power in the movement, to cause a politician from either side to want to co-opt it. Co-opt what?
Also, there are people like myself who don't disagree with some of the sentiments coming from the movement - we just disagree on some tactics or other issues that make us take pause.
This is a bigger challenge then you think it is since so many are ignorant of the truth and they are basing their beliefs on lies.
yea - your above that because your high!
For the record I smoked pot once in my life precisely 18 months ago on my birthday. I have done no other drugs ever, except those prescribed, and I actually hate prescriptions and almost never take them the whole time unless they are antibiotics and I have to.
But I guess I am still a pot smoking hippie right? sarcasm
I guess you have no excuse for being a mental case then. Just genetics.
ok doctor. What is my mental diagnosis? I expect to hear something from DSM-IV if you even know what that is.
The distinction between left and right is the difference between social justice and fascism. You can't compromise and bring together a little of either. Both are mutually exclusive and antithetical to each other.
Never the twain shall meet.
yeah-ya. and while you people are fucking around trying to decide if you will engage the political structure itself,
Boner John
is seeking to push through the Keystone XL pipeline.
Boner
tax cuts for middle class are "chiicken shit" couples tax break to: -- easing boiler regulations -- selling broadband spectrum -- opening the Keystone XL pipeline
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/12/02/381058/boehner-payroll-tax-chicken-shit/
boner on global warming:
Boehner Cites Cow Farts To Downplay Global Warming (VIDEO)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/19/boehner-calls-global-warm_n_188688.html
credo petition:
Forum Post: Tell Reid and Pelosi - Don't be a Boner! Dec. 3, 2011 http://occupywallst.org/forum/tell-reid-and-pelosi-dont-be-a-boner/
It's your Congress. Use it.
elections are approaching and there is no talk of a third party
I will probably vote green
anyway I have never been comfortable with the one dimension imposed measurement on political environment
I redefined terms in an attempt to buck the left right paradigm
Conservatives conserve civilization. Liberals expand civilization. Socialists help people. Libertarians help themselves.
Political "rules" govern party formation. Required number of signatures in each district, etc. Dems and Reps routinely use the "legal process" to prevent third parties from forming.
I know that it is difficult for third parties to get traction
which is a reason to go with the Green party
as they are already running and on the ballot
Agreed. But they need a candidate, national media, the financing to support a billion dollar campaign and of course participation in the so-called "presidential debates", from which third parties are excluded.
A grass roots campaign can be mounted on the internet
It would tale some getting out doors and convincing of those not wired
A massive write-in vote bypasses the "legal" barriers and party system but would undoubtedly not survive the corrupt digital election process.
The co-opting of the movement has already happened, and it happened from within, not by any outside establishment. In a couple of weeks, OWS is going to try to shut down all the ports on the West Coast, in support of a threatened labor union in Washington State. So a movement that was born protesting (among a long list of other things) the financial corruption of the political system is now openly aligned with organized labor, which spends more money buying politicians than just about any other institution in the country. Corporate money in politics is bad, but somehow union money in politics is good. "OWS is above that." huh? You're dreaming.
And I say we must use this same principle to our own advantage.
How best is this done?
Focus on the weakness, focus on those timbers that are most clearly rotten and crumbling.
Focus on the biggest lies.
The biggest Atrocities.
Global Warming.
East Timor.
Tie these issues back to the corporations, and those who have supported policy to the corporate need.
Bring them down.
Use these divisions to our advantage.
Focus on the 40 percent in the Senate who believe there is no global warming, and we will not have to fight the other 60.
z
This site has clearly been infiltrated. Something needs to be done about it!
We can only hope. I really don't know why they let bratty child-like posters who post here. Their promoting this by doing nothing about them. It's like this is the third grade here with a classroom filled with students who don't listen and abhor any rules!!!
It lacks structure for anything constructive. The trolls clearly are winning here and have for quite some time. It's disgusting. It's why I don't spend much time here. It's a real loss.
Peace!
You are absolutely right. Visit themultitude.org for a much better place to seriously discuss ideas. What I can't understand is that there seems to be exponentially less participation there!
It's like people have a choice between the National Enquirer and the BBC and they chose The Enquirer! Go Figure! We've been promoting themulittude.org for weeks! A few people said they didn't want to go there because the site was ""owned by the 1%!" I can't imagine, after being on this site, how anybody could possibly make such a claim about any other site! This site is CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY promoting an outside agenda. Just look at the posts that make it to the top of the lists, when they were posted, and how many comments they have received - and that is OBVIOUS!
Are there some trolls in disguise at themultitude? Yeah, but at least they have to mind their potty mouths and try to explain themselves in rational debate. This, proving essentially impossible, they tend to keep their mouths shut so they won't be thrown out! It's far better at themultitude for productive debate. Check it out.
I have been there and your right, less traffic. Always trade-offs it seems. In the end, good strong debate seems to be the more honorable way to go but everyone likes to play. I guess we strive for a balance. Sometimes this forum is just way off and then there can be these moments of real insight. Such is life, the good with the bad.
Peace!
man, you are right on. think of the vast amounts of money and control corporations have. you don't think they've hired more goons to come here and try to destroy this? how many spies of the government and/or the corporations have infiltrated the Occupy movement? what they don't understand is that the movement is not going to go away. because, we, the 99%, go home (if we have one) to the same conditions. there is nothing else left for us to do, but this. they've taken it all away. so, we have nothing to lose.
Yep! Here lots of people vote republican based simply on the issue of gun control. Where are those people here? They exist all over the south. In fact very few republicans here are so rich they can afford to have something against food stamps, lots are on them. There are so many trolls running around, when I do encounter an honest to God Christian conservative, I'm likely to be a jackass to them and totally misjudge them.
Don't feed the trolls!
Winning people over with logic and reasoning starts with producing logical ideas and reasonable solutions. How is Occupy Broadway a logical and reasonable way to produce change? It seems about as effective as a tick without a dog to feed on.
Absolutely. This is not a fight of "communists" vs "capitalists", but rather a fight of good people against bad people. In my experience of the Movement, I have not seen much fighting amongst "factions". We are all against the greedy banksters.
Dear occupy people.
Go Home!
You are practicing your free speech. I Get it.
You are upset with the way things are and YOU want to change things for the better for the good of our society and our country. I Get it.
Peacefully assemble, peacefully protest, at the end of the day, go home. When tomorrow comes assemble, peacefully protest and try to change things that YOU feel would change things for the better for the good of our society and our country. When tomorrow is over, go home, then come back the next morning. and repeat the process day after day if you like.
I am appalled at your method of protest. It is not a camp ground. You are taking over areas intended for public use that other people can not use these areas. Police resources are taken away that 911 calls are not able to be answered in a timely fashion. The area that is being used by YOU as a campground is being damaged and will take money to restore to proper conditions.
Would your method of protest be acceptable if the TEA PARTY used it? How about PRO-LIFE groups? GAY-RIGHTS? These groups also want to change things THEY feel are for the good of our society and our country. I do not agree with all of these groups and the viewpoints they represent, I do find most of their methods of protest and expression of free speech as peaceful and civil minded.
Go home. Just go home.
Jim Harper
Fleetwood, PA
First: I agree with you, it is time for getting rid of overnight camping..at this point it is nothing but a distraction.
Second: The Parks and damage? This is nothing compared to the damage to the earth park created by oil companies...did you write to them an tell them to GO HOME? I have no idea why you posted this absurd message but you really need to get your priorities straight. Your grandchildren will suffer the health consequence from oil companies. I seriously doubt there will be a health consequence from trash in a park.
occupation is much more effective than going home every night. Do you think armies go and occupy a territory and then go home at night and come back the next day. This is a war against our suppressors... a non-violent war but a war nonetheless.
It was all right for a time to Occupy. It let people get together and watch the numbers grow. Now, Move Your Money was successful. All the protests in the world won't be successful if you don't have a consumer movement also that can affect the bottom-line of publicly traded companies. Things that hurt small local businesses and will just have a negative impact on the 99% need to be avoided. The 99% is made up all kinds of people, consumer actions that even conservatives and even republicans would like to participate in would be a welcome addition. You can't avoid issues people have been trained to believe are critical by both parties. At the same time there are issues both parties have avoided totally, like the labeling of Franken Foods that would appeal to a lot of people. And not having a public face for the movement does make it creepy to lots of people at home. When will someone we wouldn't want to support come out and reveal some previously hidden agenda as has happened so many times in the past? If its OK for Muslims to take over countries to have a government that reflects their values, why would Occupy avoid courting Christan people here? To a lot of regular folks, it looks like a small group of people who are going to do whatever they want to get their way no matter how others feel. Regular folks need to see they ARE the 99% and they and their values are welcome. The 99% won't agree to be saved from themselves by a small group with a predetermined agenda. They are afraid to tear something down without knowing what will be propped up in place of it. OWS needs to grow even more and it needs to find a way to reassure people they are ALL a part of it and All have the power to influence it.
"Now, Move Your Money was successful." You must be nuts. owS was successful? how? Tell me what big business or the government has done to redress the grievances of the OWSers. This is far from over. Maybe gov and big biz is AWARE of some of the things that need to change but OWS is about a little more than awareness. They actually want change and I hope they stay there until they see that change. OWS represents some of the interests of the 99% but OWS is not comprised of the 99% yet. Hopefully the awareness of the 99% goes up so that they join in the non-violent war against our oppressors. Still lots of work to do.
"consumer movement" I agree but we still have not gathered support for something on the scale we need. Our boycott of black friday was a small victory in that we kept a few thousand people from wasting their money on stuff they didnt need in support of the rich, but we were not successful in actually making much of a dent in the publicly traded companies wallets. We still need more support for that and that is why the encampment is still around. Hell we've only been around for 2 months. How much real lasting change in the world gets implemented in 2 months? not much!
I agree we need consumer actions.
I'm tired of hearing about ow these park occupations are hurting the small businesses right next to the park. Are you actually talking to those business owners or are you just trusting the propaganda that the establishment is feeding you on the boob tube?
why should we have a public face or a leader at all. As soon as we have one, it is only a matter of time before the establisment infiltrates the leadership and coopts the movement or divides it into winning over some followers and then splitting off. Believe me, I know the military and CIA tactics for this from firsthand experience. I can understand the people at home thinking this is not normal but the media wants to especially have this make you feel uncomfortable. It's really the establishment that is uncomfortable because how do you influence a group of people who have no clear cut leader. Not having a leader is a very clear advantage at this point while the movement grows. Maybe this won't be how it stays, but the timing has to be right for the events going on around us wink wink
What is this "their way" that ows is trying to get away with? Yeah some people have some pretty shortsighted ideas that make no sense, but what's new? I'm sure that the media slants it and makes sure to put out anyone who speaks anything unwise and then completely ignores anything that really makes sense. Selective reporting with a slant. What's new?
What's the small group? Whats the predetermined agenda? What is not in the values that dont reflect the 99% values.
I agree about the fanken foods, but that is a SYMPTOM when we are trying to get to the root cause. Fighting food labeling is gong to do NOTHING aout the corrupt power structure. That's like throwing a bandaid on a paper cut on your finger while your same broken arm has gangrene setting in.
So at the end you say that OWS needs to grow and I agree with you on that. The main point that we need to unite around is that their is a huge power and wealth disparity between the upper 1% and the rest and part of the reason is the power and influence of the 1% over our governemnet leaderships structure. GET THE MONEY OUT OF POLITICS! is a good start. addressing frankenfoods will do just about NOTHING at this point. There are about 1000 other small thinsg that DO need to be addressed just like franken foods at some point. But that does nothing to get at the core problem and that is what needs addressed NOW.
You can say get the money out of politics but no current politician is going to cut his own throat. Public perception is important. Boycotts on issues that would attract more conservatives and people who currently don't participate would be a good thing. Its simply a method of teaching people to vote with their dollar. This is something many people can understand. It is a way to address the fact that most people aren't 100% democrat or republican and being served totally by either party. If you want to serve the 99% you have to do something to show you care about people with conservative views as well. The perception is you don't. The perception is you don't want to donate any time to charitable causes, you just want to hold a park. Getting the money out of politics is the main message sure. You think holding a park is the only way to that, you go right ahead. I live over twenty miles from the nearest Podunk town so regardless of how much I sympathies with the main goal, your current methods leave me left out and baffled. I can say it looks to me going threw the steps in book of rebellion are far important than what I think or offering me a way to participate. I'll continue to watch it, from a distance and that distance is growing by leaps and bounds.
start your own movement if you really want to affect change. If not then just continue living on as you have. I'm sure the rich and powerful will "take care" of you muahahahhaahah!
Keep buying like you always have and I'm sure your movement will really affect the big boys! They are really going to take notice as long as you are a good little consumer. They are going to look at their profits at the end of every month decide how happy you are with them. That's just the way it is.
already changed my habits and looking to change more, but now we have to add more people to do the same. If you are as passionate about the consumer issues as you seem to be then go join those movements or start your own. The movemnets surely exist but unfortunately are not as big as OWS or get as much traction or attention. Maybe some core changes to the power structure will help those movements get the traction they need eventually. I only hope so, but I personally am here to fight the bigger battle. Not that the small battles aren't needed. They need to be sustained by people like you in the meantime.
Thanks! I've been watching how I spend and am working on it more. I can only do what I can, I'll keep watching for opportunities to do something. Occupying isn't an option for me. Good luck with it though.