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Forum Post: Dr Doom say the economy is tanking!

Posted 2 years ago on July 9, 2012, 10 p.m. EST by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Nouriel Roubini, a well-known economist, and predictor of gloom and doom says the sleight-of-hand used for the past four or five years has about played out, and the global economy is headed for meltdown next year.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/roubini-perfect-storm-unfolding-now-104907590.html

95 Comments

95 Comments


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[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Thanks. Isn't it amazing; as maligned as Marx and Marxism have become in this country, the pieces of his theory all fall into the right place.

[-] 2 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Yes it is interesting. Especially since Marx as far as I know never himself wrote about what communism/socialism would look like outside of workers controlling the means of production. The main bulk of his work was a critique of Capitalism. Its unfortunate that he is associated with so called communist regemes. For instance consider that according to Marxist thought communism meant statelessness, which is quite the opposite of the USSR or any of the other so called communist states.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

True. In Marx's speech on the Paris Commune, he lauded their sincere application of true democracy and a classless society. His only real criticism, which caused he and Engels to modify the Manifesto, was that the communards had only taken over the bourgeois structures instead of smashing them to pieces.

Lenin used this theme to expand on the notion of the dictatorship of the proletariat; that transition government from capitalism to communism. the exact stage where most "socialist" revolutions have failed and degenerated into oligarchies or outright dictatorships.

Lenin believed the old system had to be ruthlessly destroyed and he quoted Marx and Engels to support his premise.

I find it interesting to read the speeches of Che Guevara, the ones he made not long after the Cuban revolution, about the future he envisioned then compare his predictions to the actual results.

As Americans we find it easy to find fault with Fidel Castro and the Cuban revolution, but if one compares the lives of the poor Cubans, the serfs, peones, under the feudalistic, US-backed government of Fulgencio Batista, to the lives the average working Cuban has today, their advancement appears to be a leap of centuries.

Similarly, Hugo Chavez in Venezuela has moved the masses forward using Marxism with an authoritarian hand, but never resorting to totalitarianism. I hope he lives long enough to completely emancipate the workers of Venezuela. His revolution has already spread through many parts of Latin America. I expect to hear much more of the Bolivarian Revolution in the coming years.

[-] 2 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

As for Latin America and this may not be on the subject but I find it ironic that Milton Friedman did more to spread socialism to south america than Karl Marx could have ever dreamed. 40yrs after the coup in Chile and the arrival of the Chicago boys and Latin America has more left leaning governments than it has ever had at any time before.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Friedman is on topic. He may have been one of the major contributors to the decline of the United States, pushing his cockeyed monetarism.

The so-called conservatives with their faux patriotism and corporate allegiance have basically rotted the core of American thought. No wonder the United States is on such rapid downhill slide.

[-] 2 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

It's a hard ideology to follow. I've noticed most conservitives have three pillars of thought that carry religous significance, christianity,capitalism and nationalism. These three tenents make strange bedfellows in my opinion. Its true that some put more significance in some of these tenents than others and prehaps some reject one of these outright as in the case of objectivists but on the whole these are the three tenents of modern conservitism. Throw in some white anxiety about being a minority in 20yrs and I don't think this is far off from being about where alot of people were at the end of Wiemar Germany.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

I think you are right. I also think some of these people are very militant. Like the idea that if you are not a Christian or a Morman, then ... you can be ostracized. Which is the modern version of being stoned.

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

You are right that these people are militant but I think it is our job to reach out them as much as possible. Most of them are just uneducated and are as much victims of this system as anyone else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjP-y7YaNUE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E48QqcTOXeY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I find the video about MS particularly heart wrenching.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Yes, it is probably a good thing that Obama became president so that people won't have such silly ideas about what would happen if a black person become the US President (like Ohio video shows).

I like to say the US has not progessed since we passed the Occupational Health and Safety Act in 1970. It was the last progressive real legislation after the Civil Rights Act. You can see in your videos that many people are stuck. They never made into the 20th Century let alone the 21st Century.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

American conservatism is a train of illogical conclusions coupled together to make capitalism appear something other than it is. It's a magician's trick. Non-Christianity called Christianity, exploitation called incentive, military-industrial complex called patriotism. It's garbage dressed up to look a reformed whore.

Like many Republican legislators, who preach morality, while molesting little boys, the conservative ideology is nothing than a facade to hide economic degeneracy.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Funny thing their belief in Christianity - they don't believe. And not just conservatives either.

Funny thing about all man made religions - they do not follow the teachings. They just use the religion to support their own goals.

Otherwise they would be supporting their fellow man.

They just give Christianity lip service so that they will look respectable.

So of their trinity their 1st pillar is false and is used as spin to support their real god money capitalism - the 3rd pillar and their only real goal.

As their 2nd pillar nationalism is also just a tool to use in support of their actual goal - money. Also they are changing that 2nd pillar to be worldism.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Yes, faux patriotism. Why the hell did we go to Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Panama, .... I don't even see why we went to Korea except there was a race with Russia and communism. Shmedley Butler, Banana Wars, everything the CIA does it seems like... something like 14 Intelligence agencies (federal only). Now we have corporate intelligence agencies (private). Oh yeah, now we have Private Mercenaries from a whole bunch of different countries.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

In a way what we're witnessing seems like an apocalyptic movie; our government has run amok, and we're the unwilling passengers strapped in for the ride. Happy landing!

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Yes, don't mind the torture going on over there... Just leave your written legislation on the table with your cash or checks. We'll be coronating Lloyd Blankfein, Jon Corzine, and Jamie Dimon at 5 pm sharp.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Long live the kings!

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/2370/221/Nazi_Checkpoints_All_Over_California:_Welcome_To_The_Police_State.html (wow, even I know that police can't detain you for no reason ... and yet I'd probably pull off to the side or answer questions and get out my papers)

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

I learned a while ago not to argue with an armed policeman, whether he has a gun or a billy club in his hand. If you're skin is off-white Sheriff Joe's goons around Phoenix may pull you over to see if you're legal.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Since many of the countries in South America were the first to get screwed by the 'Chicago boys", they were also the first to get unscrewed.

[-] 0 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

I hope it don't take us 40yrs. I don't think we have even 25 to get this under control

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Zombie Governments, Zombie Households, Zombie Economcy...

Nouriel Roubini - video above.

You can't Inflate yourself out of this recession, you can't save yourself out of this recession (paradox of thrift), you can't spend yourself out of this recession. He is saying that the FED won't fix the problem with QE3. Jobs are needed.

Good to review what our tools are. We've been asking why we don't do what FDR did to get 100 employment. I have been talking about jobs programs for the last year and economic free zones.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/economics-stimulus-taxes-jobs-regulations-revolvin/

That is the place I put my ideas.

[-] 1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 2 years ago

Oh No Mr.Bill the sky is falling the sky is falling.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Attaching Federal Reports that I can find. I don't see any evaluation of the risks of links between public and private banks, Credit Default Swaps, Derivitives, and lack of transparency, lack of tracking, lack of monitoring, lack of involvement of regulators to define systemic risks.

http://4closurefraud.org/2012/07/05/semiannual-risk-perspective-spring-2012-occ-report-discusses-risks-facing-national-banks-and-federal-savings-associations/ (Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, seems to head federal bank examiners offices)

http://4closurefraud.org/2012/03/08/board-of-governors-of-the-federal-reserve-system-moral-hazard-the-effect-of-tarp-on-bank-risk-taking/ (The results indicate that, relative to non-TARP banks, the risk of loan originations increased at large TARP banks but decreased at small TARP banks. Interest spreads and loan levels also moved in different directions for large and small banks. For large banks, the increase in risk-taking without an increase in lending is suggestive of moral hazard due to government ownership)

http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/srletters/2008/SR0812.htm (The US Interagency agreement (Circular) seems to loosen up the rules on rating other countries banking risk, but it does prove a definite kind of responsibility for the Federal Reserve, FDIC, OCC)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/24/bank-for-international-settlements-report_n_1622244.html (The BIS – an intergovernmental organization of central banks based in Basel, Switzerland – said it's key for governments to make banks take responsibility for their losses and force them to rebuild their finances. Meanwhile, the threat from risky bank behavior is growing again)

"...The report also emphasized the need to increase the safety of the banking system by pushing banks to be responsible for their losses, add to their financial buffers and avoid risky practices. It added that big banks still have an interest in using high-risk debt – so-called "leveraging" – to magnify any trading gains because they can expect taxpayers to step in and cover their losses if things go bad...)

"...Some of the concerns about banks reflected in the BIS report were highlighted last week by the downgrade of the credit ratings of 15 large banks by Moody's Investors Service. The credit rating agency cited the banks' "significant exposure to the volatility and risk of outsized losses inherent to capital markets activities."..."

"...The BIS said fundamental progress would be secured when the "largest institutions can fail without the taxpayer having to respond" and when the size of the financial sector relative to the rest of the economy stays within tight limits..."

OCC, Commercial Credit Risk Division staff maintains expert knowledge of industry practices, emerging issues, and trends in commercial credit and is responsible for • Identifying and analyzing areas of significant risk.

OCC, Market Risk Division comprises two teams—balance sheet management and asset management—and maintains expert knowledge of industry practices, emerging issues, and trends in balance sheet management and asset management

OCC, Compliance Policy Department staff provides guidance to the banking industry and to examiners to promote compliance with consumer protection laws, the Community Reinvestment Act, fair lending laws, Bank Secrecy Act, and anti-money laundering laws. • Developing and maintaining examination procedures for use by field examiners.

OCC, Office of the Chief Accountant develops and publishes policy guidance on bank accounting issues and is responsible for • Coordinating accounting and financial reporting issues, including call report requirements. • Interpreting and developing guidance on generally accepted accounting principles related to banking, and identifying emerging accounting issues. • Working with the Financial Accounting Standards Board, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, and other banking agencies to develop generally accepted accounting principles.

OCC, Financial Markets Group is responsible for • Assessing trading and counterparty credit risks at large trading banks. • Working with the National Risk Committee to identify areas of emerging risks. • Maintaining contacts in financial markets (loans and derivatives) to assess developments that may affect national banks. • Serving as a consultant to senior OCC management field staff, attorneys, and bankers on trading and counterparty credit risk policies. • Representing the OCC on interagency working groups.

OCC, Retail Credit Risk Division comprises two teams— (1) mortgage banking and securitization and (2) retail credit. Division staff maintains expert knowledge in industry practices, emerging issues, and trends in mortgage banking and securitization and in retail credit.

http://www.occ.treas.gov/publications/publications-by-type/annual-reports/annual-report-2009.pdf (Click here to see Rogue Gallery and names of participants in our Financial Crisis 2008)

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1250) from Fredericksburg, TX 2 years ago

“How does the system work for us? We who made them rich in the first place, when we who used to do the work to make and buy the products they sell, are no longer functional consumers. What happens to the financial geniuses who looted the economy, when they run out of poorer countries that they can move their operations to? The system won't even work for the frauds who led us into this disaster for very much longer. And if China cuts them off . . . The Chinese government may, if they choose, execute CEOs, even foreign executives if captured during a visit of operations, for looting their economy. The communists aren't hobbled by wholly owned corporate subsidiary politicians and a corrupt all the way to the Supreme Court judiciary.”

“My bet is they won't make it out of China alive,” says Cabeza. “The Chinese take fraud and bribery seriously. They aren't easily bought like our politicians. And they don't have corporatist majority on their supreme court. The communist government there has executed bankers and businessmen for fraud.”

Derived from: How Does That Work? https://www.createspace.com/3852916

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

The system doesn't work for the lower class; their purpose is simply to provide a labor pool. That may be about to change along with the system we know.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

There is a finite limit to how far you can stretch penny pinching, and this Atlantis style banking system of squeezing every last penny from the working classes to bail out the financial giants is begging to find that limit and earn a trip to the bottom of the ocean.

[-] 4 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

The incredible aspect of this meltdown is the denial. The mainstream media, the big-name pundits, the average workers still seem to believe everything will come up roses.

The problem with all this gloom and doom is that if it comes to pass, we'll be part of the upheaval, while the uber-rich will just find another place to plunder.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Everything has a breaking point, an unbearable stress load - we hit it in 07 and we have been buying time ever since with temporary band-aids, but virtually no real lesson has been learned and no meaningful corrections have been made.

I guess the mainstream fishes have been lulled into a false sense of security because the waters appear relatively calm. I love how our government fudges unemployment numbers to make them look better.

Anyway, all the same destructive financial forces of 07 are still in play....appearances can be deceiving.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Appearances can definitely be deceiving, but here in southern Nevada, around Las Vegas, the working class has never climbed out of the last hole. If the slide continues or steepens, I'm not quite sure what will happen here.

The only reason foreclosures are down here is because the state enacted tougher regulations for bank foreclosures, so that has dropped the rate temporarilty.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

I don't think people see the problems all that well down here in Texas, the working class around here is pretty well conditioned to accept crappy conditions to begin with.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

The working class around the country is used to accepting crappy conditions. That's probably why so few vote; most see it as an exercise in futility. The remnants of the middle class, Marx's petty bourgeousie, who still delude themselves into believing they have something to hold on to, will most often vote against their own self-interest chasing the capitalist pie in the sky.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

My dog sits on cue, he's been well trained with treats. I guess promises of capitalist pie in the sky are sufficient treats for people. No, I'm being rotten. I think my dog sits on cue because he is a social creature, my cat could care less. What I really think is people have a natural tendency to conform to social norms, to fit in and belong, to please others around them. Now is a very good time for people to question the conventional and reconsider how society works, and who benefits.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

I agree that people want to fit into their society, so much so they often ignore their best interests, but the society--the norms and the expectations--are a product of the ruling class; they control most methods of communication and social intercourse.

The bright spot is that as economic conditions worsen cultural hegemony becomes less effective, and those that have countered it become a stronger voice and a bigger influence. We can see the transformation of memes in the civil-rights movement, the anti-Vietnam-war resistance, and even now as socialism becomes more acceptable especially to younger Americans.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

I'm with you all the way, the ruling class creates the status quo to be followed to be a good standing member in society. Just say no completely changed my behavior in high school, I ditched the parachute pants and quit smoking dope (kept the long hair though). Those commercials with the eggs frying in the pan freaked me out big time.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Funny how the liquor industry manages to keep people believing that alcohol is a relatively harmless drug. Those excise taxes just keep rolling into the government coffers.

Alcohol abuse and addiction is as pernicious as any drug use, though I enjoy beer, wine, and whisky. Legalizing pot and taxing it makes more sense than trying to keep it illegal flaunting a growing general acceptance of the drug.

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

My uncle died from liver cirrhosis in his early 50s, drank everyday of his adult life. The last decade of his life or so, his motor skills were so burned out from the liquor, he staggered even when sober. If you abuse any substance for a long time, it will damage you.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

And now that pot is on the ballot to be legalized - Texas may be providing more public pacification.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

I can't wait to see how stoned rednecks act....

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Jeff Foxworthy? Larry the cable guy? There will be a major run on beer and munchies.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

And they'll both be dumber than a 5th grader.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I thought it was already getting like that in the school system. Guess they will start showing movies like the land that time forgot to prove man was alive when the dinosaurs were.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

The real age of our planet is kind of a trivial matter when you are waiting around for the rapture.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Mayan calendar?

Well that would be the end of this year.

So they say/guess/hope?

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Mayan......uh no, the biblical rapture - you know, when all the Christians disappear from the earth leaving us non-believers to suffer the wrath of God, yada, yada.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

And the destructive power of panic is very real. Think of all of the uneducated the soap addicts the tabloid addicts the area 51 addicts. Then on top of that we have the shaky economic effect of a presidential election on top of an already deathly ill economy - world wide.

Hhmmmm interesting combination - Hey?


[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (3795) 8 minutes ago

My understanding is that the Mayan's attempted to predict cyclical changes in patterns over (in) time, much the way economic forecasters might try to predict the end of a bull market cycle. Whether it is really possible for these ancient people to have had a better understanding of how time works than we posses today remains to be seen. But it is not lost on me, as we approach the Mayan date, that prominent economists are predicting heady economic woes on the horizon and scientists are constantly warning of global ramifications resulting from green house warming. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Never yell FIRE in a crowded theater (I don't think anyone is throwing out blatantly false alarms trying to create a panic). It seems more like, where there is smoke, there is a strong possibility of fire.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yeah I know about the rapture. I was just thinking that everyone is looking to the end of the year for it to happen. Like the Y2K thing.

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

My understanding is that the Mayan's attempted to predict cyclical changes in patterns over (in) time, much the way economic forecasters might try to predict the end of a bull market cycle. Whether it is really possible for these ancient people to have had a better understanding of how time works than we posses today remains to be seen. But it is not lost on me, as we approach the Mayan date, that prominent economists are predicting heady economic woes on the horizon and scientists are constantly warning of global ramifications resulting from green house warming.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I think it may be better.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

hopefully, it'll mellow them out

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

lol It certainly couldn't hurt. I remember a man who identified himself as a NJ State Trooper who called into a radio show, and said that he had been to the homes of many of people where spousal abuse had taken place, and where the abuser was drunk, but never to one where perpetrator was high on pot. Of course, it is better just to say 'no.' :-)

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

LOL. No doubt, I have never met a mean stoner, but I have ran into hundreds of mean drunks.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Ditto for me man. ;-)

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

Every house of cards falls down, eventually. matter of time really, when you live in a corrupt pyramid scam of a monetary system.

Those that are/have been taking wealth out of the system, have been working very hard to keep the system alive, so they can continue to plunder it. Bailouts, and lies and more lies. More fees and bonuses, just a few more,. and they can get a ticket to that private island they want,. too bad about the rest of us left to pay that bill,. . too bad about the eco-system failing, and the dry burning landscape,. the social unrest and suffering. These greed-whores just do not care. We are letting the sociopathic run rampant yet we keep puting pot growers in jail? What a stupid society, the 1% have built for us.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

It is simply disgraceful what has been going on, and why there aren't more people outraged, I can't understand.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The effects haven't hit home yet. We are just in the beginning...

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I agree. There definitely will be something, and it probably will be a collapse of the world's economy unfortunately, that provides the impetus for this movement to really get off the ground, and I don't think it is far away. Our real asset are the young people who have so much to lose if things don't get straightened out. The ones that i know are very determined, and they are also the ones with the most energy.

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

I hope you are right about this but my own thought is that it could take another 25yrs before things really get going. All of our left wing parties and institutions were destroyed during the cold war. I'm thinking that these things take time to rebuild.

Perhaps the children of the occupy movement could be the one that leads us into a new world. Of course I could be completley wrong and to be honest I hope that I am. Even so its up to us to build it as much as possible and who knows when our economic system collapses it could spur a real shift in consicousness. From what I understand the activists in east germany back in 89 thought that mabey in a year there would be free crossing from east to west germany, later that night the berlin wall fell.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I do not think this will be easy, or that it will happen quickly. I would hope that though that it would take less than 25 years, but considering what is on the line for the elite, and us, you might be right. Chris Hedges who covered many of the revolutions in Eastern Europe said there was no way to predict how quickly this could happen, and i tend to agree with him. Anyway, i am sure we are both hoping for the best case scenario.

Mr. Hedges mentions the Berlin Wall falling in this three hour Cspan interview. it is well worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zotYU21qcU

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Thats where I heard about that Berlin wall thing me and my wife went to see him at city lights book store and heard him speak for about an hour and got a book signed.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Cool. I like hedges, and think that he is a real good person to have on board. In this interview, a guy called in and asked him something like: What can old dispensable man do to see that his grandchild grows up in a better world? His reply was to put his body in the streets.

[-] 0 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Yeah I really like Hedges too. I was a bit suprised when I went to see him, I was expecting a giant of a man for some reason but he's really a smaller guy. I guess because he is such a large figure in my mind I expected him to be that way in person.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes, I know what you mean. I had pictured Hedges as being a big guy too, and I thought the same about Phil Rockstroh (a smaller guy) who I met at Union Square along with his wife. She is a real sweetie, and i spent most of the time talking to her about her hobby, migratory birds. Anyway I guess the smaller guys have bigger balls. That does not bode well for me at 6'2"-230. They both laughed when i told them that i had to keep a dictionary handy when I read his stuff, and his wife said, "me too."

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

I just listened to that guy Rockstroh he seems pretty reasonable.

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Hey, I know this isnt on subject but have you ever heard of this guy Bob Avakian?

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I forgot to sign off last night. No I haven't heard of Avakian.

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Good don't worry about it. You aint missing anything

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

That's right, we, the workers of most developed countries, will be left holding the bag, and it won't be pretty.

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

I saw this today. He is one of the economists who I hold in fairly high regard as far as his predictions. I take what he says fairly seriously but I don't think you need this guy telling us that the economy is about to get worse to know whats about to happen.

Take for instance that hiring has slowed for the last few months in this country and isnt keeping up with the rate of population growth. Manufacturing in China is slowing down and the Euro zone is disintigrating faster than the technocrats can repair it. There is a good chance that we are headed for another great depression and the global political class is unable to deal with it.

In my opinion the best we can hope to do is reverse the momentum of the class war being waged against the general population outside of the narrow sectors of finance and corporate power and get organized and start to fight back more effectively

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Other economists of note have also predicted the impending meltdown. I believe most posters on this site have known for a while that the road back to "normalcy" was more than an uphill climb, otherwise most of us, including the right-wing posters, wouldn't be here.

Various indicators, including the actual, over-the-top unemployment rate, the decline in real wages, America's staggering debt load suggest we may be on the brink of global financial catastrophe. If so, it will be nothing less than the self-destruction of capitalism.

As you say, we have to seriously consider how the workers can fight back and take control of their own future. People that can should spread the word: educate, agitate, take control.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Well put. Despite trying to be an optimist, I too believe that things will get worse before they get better. That unfortunately will probably be the impetus to achieving our goal of having the sea change that we so desparately need.

[-] 0 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

I'm not as optimistic as I wish I could be especially considering the rapid global warming we are experiecing.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

There are still people here on this forum that don't seem to understand how things are inter-related, and how we are in a crisis situation on so many different levels. The solutions will have to be world-wide ones, and hopefully we can awaken the people in time so that we can lead the major reforms we need.

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

I see the possibility of worldwide revolution when water becomes scarce and the corporate powers have privatized it and ration it based on whether or not you can pay for it.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes the probability of clean drinking water is already starting to be a problem, and could replace oil as the resource that is used to control people politically.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Think he is trying to channel the Mayan calendar doom date?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I keep going back to 1945

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

I hadn't thought about that, but maybe he's into "primitive" mysticism; keeps a voodoo doll of the economy at home.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Well - I kinda look at it this way.

We have had the meltdown - nothing was done - to prevent it from happening again - those responsible are still at the wheel - their toxic products are still out in the marketplace to the tune of trillions - I guess you don't have to be a Nostradamus to see doom ahead.

Presidential elections are always good to make the market unstable - what will it take to set off the next ( final? ) plunge?

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

From crisis to crisis may be the best definition of capitalism in action. Eventually the crisis becomes so critical that the system fails. The entire scenario has been predicted not through mysticism or magic, but through a study of history: Marx's historical materialism.

Time to hit the streets.

[-] 0 points by letsdomore (89) 2 years ago

Of course our economy is tanking. It was designed to function in the industrial age. In today's technology age it has become obsolete.

Our nation was made powerful by industry. How can we expect to have so much industry extracted by the effects of globalization and still expect to maintain a powerful economy?

A massive pagadigm shift in economic policy from an industrial oriented economy to a service based economy. Add to that uneven trade policies, declining tax revenues and an enormous military budget, unfunded multi trillion dollar wars and unpaid for tax breaks, corrupt govt , corporate controlled journalism, declining education, the world's most inefficient and costly healthcare system, etc.

How could the economy not tank?

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

The capitalist system is self-destructing; it's built on the pursuit of profit with no other consideration.

[-] 1 points by know1 (210) 2 years ago

I m going to assume that the "story" that it cant be fixed is just that, a story.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

It could be, but at least two other well-known economists have forecast equally grim scenarios: Marc Faber and Robert Wiedemer. I grant you that economists are more often wrong than not, but still this indicates the gravity of the situation.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR1 (8) 2 years ago

What is the one thing that effects the economy - consumer spending. What is the one thing that has had the mose effect on the economy over the last 6 years - higher gasoline prices.

Think about it - when a person has to pay $85.00 a week for fuel that's rediculous. Nothing has been done to lower these costs and if you haven't noticed since people cut back on usage, the price dropped to near $3.00 from the all time high of over $5.00.

In addition to that everything is affected by higher gasoline prices - you don't hear much about inflation but since the price of oil has been over $100.00 consumer purchases have increased in price by at least 20% and in some cases 60% to 100%

So the way I see it, unless prices on oil come down this economy is not only to remain as it is, but it definitely will get worse.

So you can whine all you want about green energy but the fact of the matter is green energy is a long way off - probably 20 years away before it will have any kind of impact on the economy.

BTW, now that the government can force people to buy things, be prepared to be forced to buy things the government thinks you need, and don't whine when the price isn't cheap because of government regulations.

Just like R-12 was regulated out, and production stopped, R-22 is on the same track - another example of government forced change.

[-] 0 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

As far as I know, R-22 is set to be phased out within the next 8 years. I thought that R-134A and R-410A were set to replace older chlorinated refrigerants along with other newer blends that have a lower Global Warming Potential.

Sustainable energy has to be a concern and goal for our society if we want future generations to have a decently habitable planet. I don't deny that such a path is more difficult and expensive, but maybe the humans that still voluntarily can are willing to make sacrifices for a better world, not only now but in the future.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

People don't want to sacrafice so that isn't going to happen. What needs to happen is we need a plan for the next 20 -30 years to lessen the use of oil and replace it with newer technology.

However during that time we need to stop being held hostage to oil producers and make this country independent until that time arrives.

In 20 or 30 years we aren't going to have as much affect on the resources of the world compared to 100 years from now if things don't change.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

I couldn't agree with you more, except for the first sentence. I believe many people are willing to sacrifice for a better place to live, a sustainable place, in which the finite resources aren't stripped bare, the water remains unpolluted, and even the air we breathe remains clears.

[-] -1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

People who are willing to sacrafice for a better place to live will do what is necessary to make that happen - people who whine and complain generally don't do a thing.

This country is far from people willing to sacrifice fr a better place to live - it takes generations - generally 3 to change peoples thinking.

The melinimum generation is the first generation to start thinking in that direction -

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Probably all the great revolutions have started with just whining and complaining, but to succeed the whiners and complainers have to take the next step and move into action.

A great revolution can't be planned, it has to grow out of the circumstances, adapt to the increasing levels of oppression and constantly provoke the ruling structure to respond with greater force. It's guerrilla warfare from the start, but the revolutionary violence takes time to gather support and finally counter the provoked responses.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

No it has been a dream of humanity for a very very long time.

It is only - NOW - that we actually have the technology to do it.

[-] -1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Sorry but we don't have the techonolgy yet for if we did everyone would be on board. Solar panels and wind turbines have been around for a long time and still they are less then 0.10% of the total power generated.

And to add to that they have been subsadised so that they could be manufacturered.

Furthermore they are disruptive to the enviornment - look at how many acres of solar panels are needed to provide power to a small city. How much heat is being generated from the black panels - and people complain about "greenhouse effects" they really have a greenhouse affect.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Solar panels and wind turbines have there place. But I am talking about real technology real power and fuel alternatives.

We have the technology - we have the capability we certainly have the need.

It is all here and ready to use - and this is just what I have stumbled across.

Spread the word.

Green Tech. New and improved - now with Liquid Metal Battery for efficient power storage and distribution.

This is where we should be going: Green Energy we have the technology we just need to use it. This is what I am talking about. A clean future to be implemented NOW!

http://www.hopewellproject.org/

http://ecat.com/

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/ff_new_nukes/all/1

FuelCell Energy http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/progress_alerts.cfm/pa_id=600

You have got to watch this vid: The liquid Metal Battery - another piece to the puzzle.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy.html

Additional Liquid Metal Battery links.

http://lmbcorporation.com/

http://lmbcorporation.com/files/flyerFinal.pdf

Support green energy technology - industry - jobs. Save our world save our economy.

Rework free trade agreements as they are currently detrimental to the Business, Employment, Economic and Environmental health of the USA and in extension the world.

Put an end to outsourcing for Profit over People and the environment.

Stop world wide corporate abuses of people and environments.

Give this some serious thought/consideration.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Look, I am not saying to stop new technology - if it's out there the good. But as I stated it's going to take time for everyone to get on board.

And until that happens we need to be able to take care of our demands right now without being held hostage to other countries.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28249) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

We have what we need right now or we would not be exporting.

Besides other countries are in more danger from us if they hold out on us then we are from them.

Remember Iraq?