Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Does Occupy need help in PR?

Posted 1 year ago on May 5, 2012, 2:49 a.m. EST by Endgame (535)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

After seeing that horrible "Occupy spokesman" represent Occupy in the worst way possible on Faux News' Hannity. And when a the few Anarchists nutjobs (that do not actually represent what our movement stands for in any way) force themselves into the protests and taint the whole movement's message especially since there is not enough structure in the movement to have the proper people immediately weed these guys out; I think Occupy needs serious help in the public relations department.

The movement needs more structure. And I don't mean structure in the traditional sense like an army. No need for generals or officers or anything like that. Why not have Occupiers vote on the best articulate and passionate Occupy Spokespeople to be on tv. Then when the media wants to interview Occupy in a format like with the Hannity nonsense, they are directed to a portion of the Occupy movement where a spokesperson is selected by Occupy. And if it is found out that a show like Hannity on Faux News didn't even go through the proper channels to get a REAL Occupy representative then it would all completely backfire on him.

The Occupy movement originated out of creativity so I don't see why we can't tackle fixing our structure and PR in unconventional and creative ways. Having structure doesn't mean you have to have structure in the traditional sense.

We need to have enough respect for the movement to not let its name get dragged in the dirt without proper rebuttal. Occupy needs to realize that PR is an important part of the movement. If you have no say in that you give that power away to others to destroy it.

What do you guys think? Does the movement need to improve its PR and if yes what are some of your suggestions?.

213 Comments

213 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 8 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

This website is run by anarchists, anarchists started the GA, anarchists organize and execute all the direct actions, and that man on fox news you just dissed is my friend.

I also thought he did pretty well on the show. I don't think I know anyone else who can hold their own against someone like Hannity whose profession is fucking your shit up in an interview. Not only did Harrison stand up to him, but he stayed on platform for the most part, and it was entertaining too!

So here's what I have to say to you:

[-] 2 points by extroll (47) 1 year ago

That's true, the people hating on the Hannity spokesman are just trying to divide. I watched the interview, and I don't think we could have asked for a better spokesman. I nominate him for all future media interaction.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

extroll, I think you've gone into remission...

Either you're being sarcastic are you have gone back to trolling.

[-] 1 points by extroll (47) 1 year ago

A little of both. Mostly I am subtly pointing out the fact that I could troll for the spokesperson just as easily as you were called out for supposedly trolling against him. If we ignore constructive criticism such as yours, we will end up troll-witch-hunting forever and never get anything done.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

Im sorry but thats kind of a cop out. You're basically saying we shouldn't give constructive criticism at all because it will all lead to witch hunting. So basically we should pretend we are perfect and this movement is perfect...

Again, how am I trolling this guy? I just pointed out that the interview was horrible. And it was a clear example(only one example of many) of how Occupy needs to take measures to better its perception and be more careful of who is going out claiming to be spokesmen for the movement. Because as it is now ANYONE could go on tv claiming they officially represent the movement. If you don't see a problem with that I honestly don't know what to tell you.

And you say we will never get anything done if I keep giving constructive criticism. But I have to ask, since phase 2 of Occupy what the hell have we accomplished accept seeing our public perception take a dive? We are so focused on a bunch of petty nonsense that we are living in a bubble. That interview on Fox should of never happened like that. Only someone in a bubble wouldn't be able to realize that.

[-] 1 points by extroll (47) 1 year ago

No, no, no, I agree with you. I said if we ignore constructive criticism like yours, and denounce your opinions as trolling, we will end up witch hunting. I agree with what you said. Your criticism was fair.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

Oh im sorry extroll. I read your comment wrong.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

8 minutes and hannity at least has 6

no deal

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

jart, If you thought that "Occupy Spokesman" "did pretty well on the show" you're kidding yourself because that was literally the worse spokesman I have ever seen in my life. So bad that he came off as a Hannity plant. It was terrible. I don't care if he was your friend, cousin, uncle ,dad, etc..it was terrible. Im not attacking the interviewee personally but if you're going to claim to be a spokesman for an extremely important(but flawed) movement such as Occupy, you better be able to hold your own. Not only did he not hold his own he portrayed the movement as incompetent moochers. Completely playing into Faux New's hands. I don't even know what that was...

And no, Occupy is NOT an Anarchists movement no matter how much you may want it to be. If it becomes one then it will completely fail. The fact that it seems that YOU want it to be one shows you have no respect for the values of this movement at all.

And no Hannity's profession isn't just about "fucking your shit up". Hes a liar and a fake journalists that gives real journalists everywhere a bad name.

[-] 1 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

I've been organizing occupy since July, don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

That attitude you're expressing, that YOU know best just because you've been in the movement longer is an arrogant attitude to have. I got involved a few months later but that doesn't mean anyone that came after me doesn't have any good ideas to add to the movement to make it better. This is not a movement of superiority. Its a movement of ideas.

And if you do indeed see yourself as a leader of Occupy it would be wise to not deny mistakes, and instead try to search out the errors and try to fix them. Only then will this movement become stronger and have real long lasting policy impact on this country.

Admit mistakes. Learn from them. Evolve movement. ????.
Success.

[-] 1 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

Well you seem to be contributing nothing but toxicity. Why didn't you listen to the frog? Away with thee!

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

Wow, thats really your response? I don't know why I expected something more from someone who has "been organizing occupy since July". Disappointing...

And how is me pointing out Occupy flaws being toxic? If anything we need more Occupiers to admit to the flaws of the movement so it will become better and grow in a positive and effective way. Do you honestly think a movement in denial will end up being truly successful? Nvm, I almost forgot who I was talking to. Disappointing.

[-] 2 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago
[-] 3 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

The person representing Occupy against Hannity was not effective at all. Hannity kept him off balance the entire time, attacking him as well as the persons involved with Occupy instead of the message, classic ad hominem.

Hannity probably had researchers dig up all of the personal attacks beforehand. If an Occupy spokesman has another opportunity to present our viewpoint they had better prepare for it.

As for Endgames criticism, it is fair, the spokesman did a poor job. Criticism is not trolling. Members within a group tend to overlook each others faults and in defense attack the critic. Police do it, politicians do it, family members do it, Occupy does it.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

It was Sean Hannity. Who gives a damn. Anybody who watches Hannity for anything but grim giggles is too far gone to bother with, and if the rest of the press re-reports it, and treats it as news, all that does is undermine their own credibility.

So I think those that are really on the side of this movement will let the matter drop, and I think those who endeavor to keep it alive are eventually going to have their motives for doing so challeneged.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

You seem to miss the point of my reply. It's not about Hannity, but about handling criticsm between members of our group. When one member says "get out" because they don't like their friend being criticized, the group needs to address the problem. As far as being on the side of this movement, I am for all the parts that are right and against all the parts that are wrong, no matter how high their status.

If we can't be honest enough to admit faults within our own group and correct them, and instead let the matter drop, swept under the carpet, how can we be honest enough to point out faults in our financial system and correct those?

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

jrhirsch, well said. You boiled that down better than I did. Its not JUST about Hannity. Its about not letting everyone else control the perception of us. And its about us in the movement being honest with ourselves about our flaws and mistakes so we can grow and move forward stronger.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

Okay, you have a legitimate stance here. It is unfortunate that we are so overrun with trolls (see below) that our ability to engage serious questions such as this are hampered. If the intention here is constructive self-critisism, then I think that's valid.

Many posters here are not opperating under that motive.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

The key isn't to allow the trolls(im not calling out anyone specific) from preventing us from engaging in serious discussions on our mistakes and how to learn from them.

I understand that there are many trolls. But don't let them get in the way of us bettering ourselves.

[-] -2 points by veron (-39) 1 year ago

Speaking of motives, GypsyClown, why don't you openly confess that yours is to use this forum to co-opt the Occupy Movement into the Democratic Party where they can more easily be controlled as part of our false-choice two-party system of rigged elections with predetermined outcomes?

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

Ah, my old stray dog from the innept PR firm that used to dog me around this forum. It's good to know I hit the right nerve. Now I'm absolutely certain where this divissive shit is comming from.

[-] -3 points by veron (-39) 1 year ago

The correct spelling is "divisive", GypsyClown. And if by divisive you mean culling out the Demopublican plants in the Occupy Movement in general and this forum in particular, then you can bet your banyan trees I am divisive!

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

.....

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

He doesnt want it to be, IT IS ONE.

Apparently you havent spent much time at Occupy. Its about as norizontal as something gets. So much to the point that very little ends up getting done, which is a big complaint by those who are more organized-types.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 1 year ago

I can't agree with the idea of kicking people out of anything for merely voicing their opinion (that's the antithesis of anarchist thought). But, following along with your reasoning, anyone who appears on a Fox program (like Hannity) is setting themselves up to be embarrassed. There's really no way around the way they format their programming, it's designed to achieve a predetermined outcome (and they're simply not going to allow something which compliments a movement like OWS to be aired on one of their programs). So my thoughts on this subject would be, no occupier should be appearing on Fox News. PBS, CNN or whatever, but definitely not Fox (I mean, the only reason why Fox would air something like this, is if it was a trap to begin with).

In other words, there's no way an occupier will come out of a Fox News interview, without looking exactly like the Fox News stereotype of Occupy Wall Street protesters.

I mean, shit happens, we learn from experience. In science, you often deduce your way to a solution by ruling things out (so ... it's an important exercise).

[-] 0 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

I can't agree with the idea of kicking people out of anything for merely voicing their opinion

It's not like I banned them. Some people just need to go away on their own.

that's the antithesis of anarchist thought

Nope. Being tolerant of someone's point of view---regardless of what those views might be---is a liberal ideal, not an anarchist one.

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

"Being tolerant of someone's point of view---regardless of what those views might be---is a liberal ideal, not an anarchist one."

jart, its hard for me to believe you actually want this movement to succeed. First you try to tie this group to Anarchism, and now you say this movement should NOT be tolerant of other peoples views? REALLY?!

Judging by your posts you are seriously erratic and even illogical at times. And to be frank, I think people like you are whats holding this movement back. You think the interview your "friend" (or was it actually you) did on Fox was "entertaining". If you didn't find that cringe worthy and even embarrassing you don't have much respect for Occupy at all.

[-] 0 points by francismjenkins (3713) 1 year ago

As far as I'm concerned, I think it was a brave thing to do (I'm not sure if I would have the gonads to appear on Hannity in that sort of format), but it should also be taken as a lesson learned.

The bottom line is .... we will make mistakes (because we're humans, not robots). My personal opinion is ... Fox News is not the best forum to articulate our views. Even if it was the most brilliant interview ever given on earth, it's doubtful Fox would air the interview unless they could edit it, clip it, and spin it the way they want to (they're a propaganda machine for the right). It's not like Hannity has a kind spirit buried deeply within the cement between his ears, an interview with someone like that won't resemble a discussion between mature adults, it will be a hostile, adversarial interview. There will be no appealing to his hidden good nature (conservatives view what can be objectively classified as narcissism, as good, so we're dealing with people who, in many cases, can't even distinguish between right and wrong).

An interview like that will go something like this, so what do you guys want? If we say something like, "participatory democracy" ... Hannity would have responded, so you guys want society to pay for everything? If we would have said, "restore Glass Steagall" ... Hannity would have said, so you guys want society to pay for everything? In other words, the only thing Hannity is interested in, is reinforcing the stereotype about OWS that people like him created in the first place. If they don't reinforce that stereotype, then they have to admit they were wrong (and conservatives are [generally speaking] only marginally literate, but are deluded into thinking they're brilliant, because of the American mythology propaganda machine).

If at the end of it, we finally say, we do believe a successful society should ensure the education of its citizens ... the next minute you'll hear Hannity say that OWS wants the government to pay for tuition at schools like Harvard and Yale, they don't want to work for a living (even though the guy clearly said he was looking for a job, and everyone knows the job market is dead), etc. The only thing I extrapolated from that interview, was reinforcement for my disdain of Hannity (and all the ilk like him).

Compare that to the several Bill Moyers interviews of occupiers. Those were great interviews, the occupiers had a chance to fully articulate their position, Moyers conducted the interview like an impartial journalist, not a propagandist.

The right wing is a movement dominated by barely literate, violent thugs (or sociopathic narcissists). The right has always violently opposed civil rights, desegregation, the enlightenment, and really, everything good that humans have ever accomplished in history. All of our greatest thinkers and scientists, the people we have to thank for the freedoms and technologies we enjoy today, have always been the radicals. By definition, conservatives are the defenders of the status quo. The right is the party of war, slaughter, oppression, illiteracy, poverty, racism, tribalism, authoritarianism, etc. That's what they do. They are the enemy of the people and the enemy of enlightenment, they're not our friends.

Our nation was founded by radicals, who had to fight the conservatives of their day for freedom. So they have always been the enemies of liberty (and this is what we're dealing with).

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

as far as anarchist goes some play the long game some the short I guess, some are just fooling around

I thought the same thing about Hannity the pro and the young guy, he didn't do too bad, there is a danger of allowing the media determine the message by picking the spokesperson, but they will do that no matter

[-] 4 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

Hannity sucked

I would stop reading him by the second paragraph

It's embarrassing that he is fifty and still can't say anything but rape

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

He was just raving by the end like a mad dog.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

I remember Mad dog

damn good bike mechanic

kept the fleet of pedicabs running

during the republican convention San Diego 96

I had ripped my bike cab chain apart

and Mad Dog had me back on the street in 10 minutes

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The only mad dog I remember was 20/20, up on the hill overlooking town. I haven't had the lights at back on foot since those days.

[+] -5 points by veron (-39) 1 year ago

My guess is you stopped reading every history book you ever picked up by the second paragraph too. You are nonetheless correct in assessing that Hannity sucks. But keep in mind that he sucks because he is a small-brained, narrow-minded pseudointellectual. So are you...

[-] 4 points by shooz (26733) 1 year ago

And lookie there.......So are you!

Even narrower minded!

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

Not only that but he runs a "black PR" firm hired to mess with us.

[+] -5 points by veron (-39) 1 year ago

"Hired" is a lie, GypsyClown, and you know it. But if by "mess with us" you mean cull all the Demopublican plants infesting this forum, that part is correct.

[-] 2 points by shooz (26733) 1 year ago

Yet you are incapable of making distinctions.

You make no real point. Unless pointless distraction, is your point.

Plus you're a very jealous person. Not exactly endearing qualities.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

Ah, the only PR firm in the world that works for free. Gotcha.

[+] -4 points by veron (-39) 1 year ago

Everything we do for the Occupy Movement has been pro bono. How much is the Democratic Party paying YOU for your 7,185 points worth of co-optation propaganda, GypsyClown?

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9727) 1 year ago

It's not my fault if you score is (-13), but I know you have devoloped som steath player names here that are begining to amass acceptable scores, so it's not like you don't care.

And no, I'm not going to bump your posts again.

[-] -3 points by veron (-39) 1 year ago

You didn't answer the question, GypsyClown: How much is the Democratic Party paying you for your 7,185 points worth of co-optation propaganda?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

To whom is your message, "get out" directed? The occupiers who are not anarchists, or who don't like your friends debating skills, or to people who disagree with you?

[-] 3 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

It's directed at the person who posted the thread. We're perfectly welcoming of liberals here, that's why we designed the website and crafted the messaging to not be anarchist specific.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17898) 1 year ago

Stand firm, be steadfast and be sure that those involved at the sharp end have the sincere appreciation and support of untold hundreds of thousands & indeed millions throughout The USA & also Worldwide.

More pertinently :

nil desperandum ...

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

So OWS is an anarchist movement?

[-] 4 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

The heart of the movement is anarchist, but we've always welcomed liberals. Also we really haven't proselytized anarchism.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/2011112872835904508.html

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Hey jart? Has there been an explanation given as to how to use the social media buttons on the left side of the screen? I mean do they tie to a highlighted comment or something? How does one make use of them as regards this forum?

[-] 1 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

Each page on the website gets its own buttons. So if you're looking at a forum thread and hit the Facebook Like button, it'll share the forum thread on your Facebook. The same goes when you're looking at news articles, the about page, etc. The social media buttons don't have anything to do with the comments though, just use twinkle and stinkle for those.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Thanks. Will the twitter and facebook then have a link back to the post?

[-] 1 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

Yep

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Thanks again. Can you toast the troll posts? See below.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-is-a-sophisticated-operation-the-1-global-e/

[-] 1 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

I'm not sure I understand? Are you saying the thread is a troll? Or some particular comments?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The post says that occupy is being run by the 1%. Says OWS is a blind a front a sham.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-is-a-sophisticated-operation-the-1-global-e/

[-] 1 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

Removed. It's partially true though. There's a lot of rich fucking people playing core organizing roles in this movement :( It's sad and it's mostly because these trustifarians are the only ones who can afford to do this shit without ending up homeless like me :\

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (5688) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Why do you consider it sad? Consider them a tool, and I mean that in a utilitarian way, not as an insult to them.

[-] 1 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

Because it's paternalistic. Ideally, the people who suffer from oppression should be liberating themselves rather than by the hands of those who benefit from their exploitation. Having rich people leading occupy is like having straight people leading a gay rights movement. But it's not a black and white issue, there's plenty of extremely economically privileged people who've made good contributions to the movement, and I'm not against working with allies. It's just depressing.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (5688) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

You know, I'm sure there are others like myself who would like more info but I know right now that's probably impossible. Confidentiality issues? It sure would answer a few lingering questions, though. To me, unanswered questions are like an itch I just can't scratch.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Well won't it be ironic if it bites em in the ass.

[-] 2 points by jbgramps (159) 1 year ago

Short answer is Yes. A lot of good OWS folks don’t want to recognize it, but it’s true. The good OWS concept and ideals have been hijacked by the anarchists. I now fear some are turning into terrorists. Sadly OWS has provided them a forum and a place to plot their crimes. The masses will not support the craziness; and that’s too bad. OWS had such strong potential.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (17898) 1 year ago

"Hijacked" ?!!! WTF ?!! Was OWS not seeded by them ?! The Real Issue is what do you think you know or understand about The 'A' word ? For some insight above and beyond your pre-programmed responses - see, read, digest & cogitate upon - http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-wall-streets-anarchist-roots/ .

You're NOT remotely interested in OWS's "potential" and your casual, easy and totally reactionary use of The 'T' word of course, clearly identifies you for who and what you really are :

'T' is not for "terrorist" on this forum, it is - first and foremost, for TROLL !!!

temet nosce ...

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

Come on guys this is a prime example of how unfocused Occupy is. Are we seriously now going to spend time on trying to change the public's perception on the meaning of what an Anarchist is?!

The bottom line and the truth is that the overwhelming majority of the public (of all political backgrounds) think of Anarchists are a BAD thing and equates them to domestic terrorists. Thats just how it is. Occupy should NOT associate itself with anything to do with Anarchists.

So we can either work to creatively solve real problems through non-violent means..or choose to waist our time trying change the perception and redefine..Anarchy?! Come on, FOCUS.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

And what exactly are YOU focusing on, besides typing on a computer?

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

You mean besides going to rallies since this movement began and seeing the condition that Occupy is deteriorating in other states besides New York, while doing my damnedest to bring people on board through any means I can, and while doing so getting a real good understanding of some of the flaws to the movement and now trying to get others from inside the movement to realize that its okay to admit to our mistakes so we can learn from them and evolve the movement into something stronger....

Besides focusing on that...I guess nothing? Im not just some random guy coming into the movement and giving random critique(even though I also think that kind of critique of the movement is good). Im focusing on how this movement can become stronger on multiple fronts. Core messaging, ways to bring in more people with that core message, fixing the structure of the movement, fixing PR, etc.

We all bring something to the table. And im sure you as as passionate about this movement as me. I don't mean to imply otherwise. I just think if we all work together on the most important things instead of being side tracked with things we can focus on later, it would make Occupy so much stronger and efficient.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I have to apologize, 9 out of 10 times a post like that is from someone who is just breaking our balls.

I agree with you almost all of that, and agree that focus is a tough one for most occupies.

I do believe that any core messaging has to include an official statement that we do not support he establishment or the Democrat or Republican Parties. This thing was awesome and diverse and powerful when it started, before the media started molesting it from both sides (Im in Tampa)

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

Couldn't agree more. This movement should NOT just be a Democrat or Republican movement. I think we should support politicians that want to change the status quo and getting the corruption and bribery out of our political system and ending lobbying, etc no matter what party they're in. But if we end up being about just about one party then that is not good at all.

And you don't have to apologize, its alright. I think we all bring great ideas to this movement. We just need to figure out what we need to focus on initially to make the most positive change possible.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I worked the most with social outreach in OT, and thought that getting out intot he streets and going door to door to expand reach was priority number one.

Too many of them got caught up in the camp politics.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

"Too many of them got caught up in the camp politics"

You are 100% correct with that statement. The camp politics was part of what helped to put Occupy on the map(along with other things). But continuing to do some of the same things that we did in phase 1 shows our lack of ability to adapt and evolve. But we can change that. Just because we don't sleep everywhere over night doesn't mean we can't change things.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I told them plenty of times- "No offense, but if Im going to function well tomorrow, its 1am right now, im going home to sleep in a bed" :)

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

lol makes sense.

[-] -1 points by jbgramps (159) 1 year ago

The general public equates anarchists to terrorists. It doesn’t matter if you or I agree with them or not.

I read the a thread about the five guys arrested in Ohio. A large number of the posts were blaming the FBI rather than the bombers; and questioning the validity of the arrests. I just shook my head and wondered if these people would have given Timothy McVeigh the same consideration and benefit of the doubt.

For the record, early on I was a OWS friendly. Believed they were on to something. However after all the problems with the encampments just hassling the cops and citizens Then found this forum, read the posts and became angry. I just wrote OWS off, even though I think a lot of good people are involved with it. It’s just the good guys in OWS lost the battle to the bad guys.

In my estimation, OWS has turned into a bunch of over privileged, over idealistic kids just looking for a street party. Just here for the beer (metaphorically speaking). No issues, no substance; just chaos. Every person who hates has attached themselves to OWS.

I believe OWS will not survive unless they find a way to stop the crazies; and I don’t see that happening. And that’s an objective statement from a former OWS friendly.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17898) 1 year ago

Who and what you are is totally self expressed :

  • "(A)fter all the problems with the encampments just hassling the cops and citizens Then found this forum, read the posts and became angry. I just wrote OWS off ..." &

  • "In my estimation, OWS has turned into a bunch of over privileged, over idealistic kids just looking for a street party. Just here for the beer (metaphorically speaking). No issues, no substance; just chaos. Every person who hates has attached themselves to OWS."

I need say nothing more really, tho' the word "reactionary" does seem very apt indeed.

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] 2 points by jbgramps (159) 1 year ago

Not sure I understand your point of “totally self expressed”. However, I could very well could be reactionary; not sure that’s bad.

Look, I’m not here to just slam OWS or troll. My point is that anarchism is viewed in a bad light by the people. I just don’t see it as lending anything productive to OWS. I concede the initial protests got the attention of the public and press. But the chaos got old quickly for most people.

Personally I’d love to see OWS focus on issues and work to solve some problems. But the public can’t relate to people just being rowdy, loud, committing crimes and inflaming the cops. It won’t produce any positive results.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 1 year ago

"just being rowdy, loud, committing crimes and inflaming the cops" has NOTHING, repeat NOTHING to do with Anarchism. If you're going to slam a movement, please at least do some reading about what it means. Anarchy does NOT mean chaos. It is simply the antonym of Hierarchy. Note the root of both words - archy: it means, essentially, "ruler" or "chief". People who prefer Hierarchy prefer living under another's authority. People who prefer Anarchy prefer living with egalitarianism and equality.

To put it into terms you may understand, Catholics believe in hierarchy, the top dude being the Pope. Quakers, on the other hand are religious Anarchists. Of the two, which religious system has historically been the most peaceful?

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

That is a very interesting argument. Good post!

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

jbgramps, you are absolutely right about how the people in this country(of all political backgrounds) view Anarchism. They view it in a very negative violent way and basically equate it to domestic terrorism. For Occupy to associate itself with Anarchism would be INSANE and as soon as that was the general perception of the movement it would be the end of Occupy.

Even if some people are right that the definition of Anarchy has been changed for the worse over the years, it doesn't really matter in the big picture. Should Occupy really spend tons of valuable time trying to change the almost negative universal perception and definition of Anarchism, OR do we focus our attention and creativity with trying to solve all the extremely important issues facing this country? I think the answer is simple..

There is a difference between Honorable Civil Disobedience (being arrested for non-violently protesting the fraudulent practices of banks, higher education costs, etc) and "people just being rowdy, loud, committing crimes and inflaming the cops".

I agree, we need to choose our battles and focus on making real substantive change in this country while keeping our national perception and the way the majority of Americans see us in mind and refrain from not doing things that allows for the name of the movement to be dragged in the dirt.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Thats because the general public is about as smart as box of sand.

[-] 2 points by jbgramps (159) 1 year ago

Yea, but you need the support of the masses to meet your goals. Just to say they’re dumb accomplishes nothing.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 1 year ago

So what's the solution: change the name? It would still be Political Anarchism.

I'm not sure pandering to the masses is the solution. OWS is, at core, an Anarchist movement, and that is precisely what has given it whatever success it has had. Direct democracy and decisions by consensus are at the root of its popularity with its participants. Virtually everyone I've heard from who has been there talks about what a truly special experience it was.

Direct democracy is hard, frustrating, impossible, but exhilarating beyond measure for those willing to shoulder the responsibilities inherent in that system. Although I have been unable to participate in GA's and occupations (physical disability prevents me) I was schooled for seven years in an essentially anarchist experimental school. I still look back on that experience as the best years of my life.

If OWS will grow, it will do so from within, As people come into direct contact with it and see the sober (and celebratory) decision making process, they may very well join the ranks, enlarging he movement.

These days, I am not an anarchist. I disagree with some of the basic premises and don't see it as being a practical solution to large-scale society. But that does not mean a space, and a very significant one at that, can't be carved out for anarchy to exists in. And despite my disagreements, the Anarchist movement, over a hundred years old, has among the noblest histories of any social or political movement in modern history.

I say leave it alone. Stop picking at it. It is not a scab, but healthy tissue replacing some old wounds. Let it do its thing.

Now, to Jart:

First, welcome back. We haven't heard from you in a long while, and many people were worried. I'm sorry that this foolishness was what prompted you to rejoin the fora, but I'm glad you've made an appearance nonetheless.

That said, a suggestion comes to mind. (More like thinking as I type,and not really fully formed, but I'll put it out there anyway.) Your friend did as good a job as a non-professional could faced with a person whose job, hour after hour, day after day, is to be a hatchet man for the 1% and especially for the republican party. I think accepting an invitation to talk to such a person in the first place was unwise. But more than than, I feel OWS needs to recruit or hire some genuinely profession PR folks if such invitations are to be accepted. I realize that might be anathema to some core issues of integrity, but it need not be as long as the people who are hired to speak to the public are genuinely in step with OWS. Otherwise, speaking to the Main Stream Media, or especially to scum like Hannity, can come off as very fringe to those people (the mass Public) who aren't in on the history of the ideas being presented. When your friend talks about things being free, there is an entire socio/economic school of thought behind it. But to the American public, it simply looks like someone who is demanding a handout - the opposite of what OWS is all about. A professional might be able to phrase things in a way that will sound better to the average person on the street. That is what they train to do. If the image of OWS is important, then perhaps it needs to be worked on and professionally presented. (If not, then not, and disregard the suggestion.)

Again, Jart, good to "see" you here.

[-] 2 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 1 year ago

Absolutely 1000% agree with this. The guy who was on Hannity had a pair of brass balls for sure, and while I think he did a decent job against someone whose 9-5 is making people look bad, we could use a PR person to articulate our points better.

Also, not all of us want "everything to be free." I want our government to prioritize the least fortunate over, say, spending more money to kill people, but I'm not asking for any handouts. I just want this society to be more fair. Right now the 1% gets all of the fruits of the 99%'s labor, and that is simply not acceptable.

[-] 1 points by Spade2 (478) 1 year ago

Lol, what was that analogy? XD

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

haha

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Guess that is another area of concern for spreading education and awareness.

Here is a start that you can share.


I should be clear here what I mean by "anarchist principles". The easiest way to explain anarchism is to say that it is a political movement that aims to bring about a genuinely free society - that is, one where humans only enter those kinds of relations with one another that would not have to be enforced by the constant threat of violence. History has shown that vast inequalities of wealth, institutions like slavery, debt peonage or wage labour, can only exist if backed up by armies, prisons, and police. Anarchists wish to see human relations that would not have to be backed up by armies, prisons and police. Anarchism envisions a society based on equality and solidarity, which could exist solely on the free consent of participants.


Excerpt from the article shared by jart.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/2011112872835904508.html

[-] 1 points by MsStacy (1035) 1 year ago

There are always members of nonviolent groups that get frustrated and turn eventually to violence. You have a choice, disown them and expel them as fast as possible, or allow them to co-opt your movement.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 1 year ago

Just like the Quakers are in relation to hierarchical religions, yes.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Excerpt from an article on anarchism:

Anarchists believe that society's ills and crimes result largely from repressive political and social institutions. They believe that the state apparatus cannot be employed to maintain order. They emphasize instead the importance of education in ensuring sociable behaviour, and of small social groupings, where the pressure of community opinion can ensure non-destructive behaviour.

[-] -1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

Is this your way of saying that you are an anarchist?

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Nope - just thought you might be curious. Anarchism is mostly misunderstood and is subject to be tied in with totally unrelated concepts.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I should be clear here what I mean by "anarchist principles". The easiest way to explain anarchism is to say that it is a political movement that aims to bring about a genuinely free society - that is, one where humans only enter those kinds of relations with one another that would not have to be enforced by the constant threat of violence. History has shown that vast inequalities of wealth, institutions like slavery, debt peonage or wage labour, can only exist if backed up by armies, prisons, and police. Anarchists wish to see human relations that would not have to be backed up by armies, prisons and police. Anarchism envisions a society based on equality and solidarity, which could exist solely on the free consent of participants.


Excerpt from the article shared by jart.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/2011112872835904508.html

[-] -1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

I appreciate that answer.

[+] -5 points by shadz66 (17898) 1 year ago

So just how far up your (x) is your empty head ?!!!

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

Nice reply. Attacks on honest questions always fare well. I asked a personal question and got back a definition, when the answer should have been an easy yes or no.... I don't assume answers.

How did you arrive at your conclusion that I have an empty head? Maybe you assume a lot.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (17898) 1 year ago

I think that you really know damn well that The 'A' word tends to send people in The USA into some kind of 'brain spasm' as all rational & intellectual faculties seize up in a Purely Propagandised Palsy !!!

The 'gramps' below was just the kind of 'reaction' you wanted I think and tho' I may have been a tad hasty with my diagram, I question your bona fides when it comes to OWS. If your head ain't empty, without further "assuming", I'll be wondering what It Is filled with !!

Anarchism of course has a long and deeply intellectual body of work, writings and theory behind it, but any such references will be wasted here !

ad iudicium ...

[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

I'm a left leaning Independent. I see failures with the two party system. During the late 60's I believed in anarchy, but have changed my stance since then, so I know what it means. I also am trying to figure out exactly where OWS stands, and that is difficult.

If there is anyone who plays posting games to manipulate responses it happens to be YOU, as I have been reading your posts. You just mostly attack and display an air of faux intellectualism, that is truly faux.

If you want to gather real support, and that would be from more Independents like me, I would suggest you change your tactics in addressing questions, or assuming motives that don't exist. You assume way too much.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (17898) 1 year ago

@ geo : IF you really are "a left leaning independent", then quite frankly I have no wish whatsoever to get into any kind of public 'ding-dong' with you (tho' I'll play huckleberry by PM). Thus, I withdraw and express contrition for anything which was hasty &/or insulting. Perhaps with the recent 'Troll Count' around these parts, I replied in haste ; didn't differentiate you from 'gramps & ilk' and indeed, I did - "assume way too much".

OWS and actually The USA at large, urgently need more people like you on the streets & 'Occupying' rather more than my 'attacks' and "faux intellectualism" from across the pond (where we've got similar problems too) and thus you can consider me suitably chastised and you've got my number - I never went to college nor do I have a degree and I'll try not to assume that you have either. I'll quietly exit stage left now, with :

pax et lux ...

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

Thank you, we may drop our swords now. Thanks also for these links.

Something to consider, OWS here in the states is a very young movement, since October. From past personal experience, in decades long gone in dealing with our war mongers and the draft... this is going to be a long term engagement.

Best to help answer questions honestly first to those who ask, no matter what their affiliation, than draw out your sword and question allegiance. Knowledge is light, and light does indeed conquers darkness.

The answer you give may be of more importance to the lurkers who watch than the questioner, even if he is an adversary.

pax et lux ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17898) 1 year ago

Thanx 'geo'. I appreciate & will reflect upon your wise and gracious comment. pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Check out http://www.ballot-access.org

Incredible site that details every party's struggle to fight the duopoly to give the american people real choices.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The thing to understand and support in the movements against the prevailing greed corruption and white collar crime - is the actions to benefit "ALL". Easy Peasy - don't support that which does not support "ALL".

[-] 0 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

I get that, and I am for that. However, shadz66 and his responses alienate... he doesn't want to include all, like those of my bent, but just those that tote his strict ideology.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

If you have a disagreement with shadz that is between the both of you. Misunderstandings are easy to come by. That does not force you to support something that you do not believe in and it does not force him either.

This is why I do not support politics - I only support or confront issues.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

Absolutely.... lets stick with the issues.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (17898) 1 year ago

I don't really have a strict ideology other than being in opposition to The Political Right Wing here, there and everywhere else in The Known Galaxy. Please see my more considered response. fiat lux ...

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

And We Go Forward - Together.

[-] -1 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

No!!

[-] -1 points by Shule (1548) 1 year ago

Personally, I think this site is run by the FBI trying to entrap people into anarchism.

[-] 2 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

How did you know?

[-] 0 points by Shule (1548) 1 year ago

Common sense.

[-] -1 points by RoughKarma (122) 1 year ago

He should not have been on with Hannity. He let himself be used. He represented the movement poorly. I don't care if he's your friend, he did a bad job. For those who watched who are not supporters, he confirmed all the worst fears about OWS. The point should have been to garner support instead of trying to "win" a pissing contest.

[-] 3 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

You people take politics too seriously. Fox News is an entertainment channel and Harrison entertained the viewers with a thrilling conversation. I think that's great outreach and makes people more willing to listen to what you have to say.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (5688) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Only an enlightened individual would consider Fox News entertainment. To the mindless drones, it's news. After all, isn't the word 'news' in the title?

Next you'll be telling us our "smart phones' aren't really smart!

[-] 2 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

CNN and MSNBC are just as bad. The only difference really is your taste in aesthetics while digesting your spin. In fact I'd actually argue that Fox News is a red herring to make liberals trust CNN and MSNBC while brainwashing the right with state propaganda.

[-] 3 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

They are bad in the way the cover politics. My problem with Fox(which is even more mainstream than all the others) isn't that they are slanted right, its the lies and the dumbing down of every complex political situation so they can put some bs spin on it while using slogans to easily get their false narrative out.

The problems with all of the mainstream media(CNN and MSNBC) is their lack of investigative journalism when it comes to covering politics. They only cover sound bites and slogans. And what annoys me the most is when the turn every political story into a "False Equivalency" story. Like when the far right republicans held this country hostage during the debt ceiling fiasco, the main stream media said "it was both sides fault" and then didn't give a damn reason why it was both sides fault. Even though the facts says it was completely the fault of the far right for not compromising on anything and creating a manufactured problem that could of really screwed this country over. But the belt way media's non-logic was "both sides are to blame just because".

When the media covers politics with "False Equivalency" it causes the ones that are truly to blame to get away with it. If its the Dems doing shady shit, call them out on it, if its the Republicans doing shady shit, call them out on it. But don't give this watered down safe "its everyones fault bs if its actually NOT everyones fault in that scenario.

The far right have done a great job of manipulating the rest of the main stream media by always crying wolf with the "Liberal Media" claim they throw around. The rest of the main stream media hears that and goes out of their way (due to fear of that claim) and bend over backwards to appease the far right and in turn covers politics in not only in a lame and dangerous "False Equivalency" but they actually end up slanting to the right on almost every story. Its a great scam and the rest of the media are to stupid to realize they are being manipulated.

Rachel Maddow being one of the exceptions. I may not agree with her all the time but I do think overall her and her team does great work and calls out the rest of the belt way media for their nonsense.

All of that wasn't directed at you. I just needed to vent...

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (5688) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Interesting take. I try to steer clear of all of them.

It's a lot easier to see the forest when you're not surrounded by all the damn trees.

[-] -3 points by Hades (-13) 1 year ago

Well duh!

[-] -3 points by JusticeForTrayvon (34) 1 year ago

I'm not an anarchist, I think there is a need for a government, to give us our basic necessities... if you want anarchism, go to the tea party. I find this suspect, coming from the administrator... could someone with Jart's contact info call her and see if her account has been hacked?

[-] 3 points by jart (1263) from New York, NY 1 year ago

I think a liberal might have hijacked your account comrade. Could someone with JusticeForTrayvon's contact info call them and see if their account's been hacked? :P

[-] 0 points by JusticeForTrayvon (34) 1 year ago

What makes you think I am not a Liberal?

[-] 5 points by markpaddles (143) from Denver, CO 1 year ago

I have been thinking about something along these lines for the past few weeks, but on a much smaller scale. I'm glad you wrote about this, Endgame. I'm new to actively being involved with the Occupy Denver movement (literally Mayday was my first experience), but have been following, supporting and defending this movement from the side-lines. So all of the veterans here can take what I have to say in whatever light you would like. I have been a keyboard activist (or clicktivist) for years now. (hey, at least I finally got off my butt and joined the movement on the streets).

But I think this PR topic is a very important thing that should be discussed amongst the Occupy groups. The reason I think this is because I am tied into, follow and make comments in the comment sections on various news websites and political forums, and the Occupy movements are getting absolutely hammered there too. I have been on these websites defending Occupy, and I have to tell you all... it's a pretty lonely experience. I thought to myself, imagine if each Occupy movement throughout the country could have a few dedicated people to spread news, call out the disinformation, and help manage the public image of OWS on these forums?!? I'm not even sure how many people in this country read the comments sections, or if there would be any net positive effect to have more OWS members defending OWS on these sites.

But then I read this post and saw for the first time the Fox news interview. I agree that Harrison has balls of steel to go on this show, and did the best he could... but the problem is that those who control the questions have all the power. Every trial lawyer knows this basic concept, so his chance of outwitting Hannity was pretty limited.

The perception management of this country's population is the real deal, and corporations and their public relations experts have perfected it. Why OWS wouldn't at least attempt to counter this as best as we could would, imho, be a mistake. This type of PR idea needs to be discussed! Take this idea to your GA's and talk about it to see what solutions and ideas might come from it. Occupy perception management!

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

"Occupy perception management" lol I love it. Thanks for the kind words.

I've also have had extremely depressing run ins with other people in life and on the internet where I am literally the only person defending the Occupy movement. It didn't start out that way. It felt like in the beginning more people were on the fence about the movement or completely supported it. But the last few months it feels like there are far more people that are bashing the movement or wanted to find something in the movement to believe in but when they hear about some of the rare cases of violence and the few that causes damage to some of the businesses during the protest they are completely turned off by it. Combine that with a lot of the misinformation out there forced fed to people about the movement you have a recipe for more and more people to move away from the movement. It worries me that some in Occupy hasn't even noticed this by now. Its almost as if some from within the movement have begun to live in a bubble.

PR is an extremely important topic(along with better structure). I hope Occupy begins to realize this before its to late. Drag anything in the dirt for to long and it becomes impossible to clean, and that includes a name.

[-] 1 points by stevebol (1278) from Milwaukee, WI 1 year ago

No.

[-] 1 points by GregOrr (113) 1 year ago

I think we need a web platform for policy ideas, so that people can take direct action (submitting ideas, arguing, voting) from anywhere, and people have a good organized place to go to see what the 99% is working on. I have created just such a website! Http://the99percentvotes.com

Please check it out, use it, and let me know if you think it'll work.

Thanks, Greg Orr

(spread the word)

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

I like this idea. And that website you have looks like its put together nicely. Good work.

[-] 1 points by GregOrr (113) 1 year ago

Thanks. Worked hard on it. Really want it to make a difference. Biggest thing is getting people to use it, so I can use all the help I can get to spread the word. I'm eager to continue development to get all the way through the steps outlined at http://the99percentvotes.com/howitworks

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 1 year ago

Maybe a public relations working group?

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

An unconventional Public Relations group that thinks outside the box? It could work.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 1 year ago

Indeed, and interviews are cool, when it's a real interview (which, of course, could never happen on Fox News). Guys like Hannity suffer from at least a moderate case of sociopathy :)

Fox News is the most disgusting organization to ever invoke the word "press" (and they're not press in any meaningful sense of the word, they're a gang of two bit hustlers, from their CEO on down).

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

lol all true. But with all that said, even enough bad coverage and "interviews" from them that goes unchallenged by Occupy can end up hurting the movement.

Occupy needs better PR structure. Have a set of official articulate Occupy spokesmen in rotation voted in by the movement itself always on the ready so that the next time someone from that network or any other shady fringe entity try to CLAIM they have an Occupy spokesman and they actually don't, interviews like that blow up in their face and everyone can see Fox News (and anyone else trying to unjustly smear the movement) for the journalistic frauds they are.

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 1 year ago

Right, if it were a collaborative process, we'd be able to arm ourselves better, and go into things like this more informed (but we learn through our mistakes). If it were me, and I was facing the prospect of going on a show like Hannity (particularly after this incident), I'd want to prep for weeks, watch video of Hannity interviews, understand his approach, learn any necessary interviewing techniques, hold mock interviews, brain storm, research, and practice, practice, practice.

It's important to realize, even many people who dislike Fox, and would be more inclined to like OWS, will tend to attribute some amount of credibility to an interview done by Hannity. The good news (I think) is many people are sophisticated enough to understand that Hannity deliberately manipulated the interview (and like I said, I applaud the courage it took to dive into something like this, and we live and learn). I've been saying this for a while, public relations is important, indeed, at this stage ... nothing could be more important.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 1 year ago

I can say that there was a lot of positive coverage of Occupy from MSNBC and NPR this past week. I would not worry too much about FOX news. No amount of PR will make them change their minds.

I had to go watch it - did not see it previously. I am quite speechless after seeing this. It was a vivid reminder to me that we are headed for Civil War in this country.

http://nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2012/05/04/sean-hannity-faces-offwith-occupy-wall-street-organizer

[-] 3 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

Faux News is only part of the problem. I think its important to recognize when we have positive coverage but I also think its just important we recognize when we get negative coverage. Or even unfair coverage. And even though the majority of negative coverage we get can be considered unfair coverage, we need to realize that not ALL negative coverage is unfair. We need to take constructive criticism and learn from our mistakes and become a stronger movement. And hopefully we won't fall into the trap of being in denial about any flaws while spending all of our time patting ourselves on the back in blind admiration of ourselves.

Thanks for the reply. :)

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 1 year ago

Perfectly stated!

[-] 1 points by sampfeifer (20) from Issaquah, WA 1 year ago

This question is very difficult. I understand that this movement is organized horizontally but what is wrong with the election or support of charismatic spokesmen? A few people, who craft words well, are photogenic and fear no fame could provide exactly the PR and face of the movement we need. The danger is them going rouge or falling off topic but since the real power lies with the mass of the movement such behavior could have them quickly condemned. Those in the know, those who are active, need to reach out to newspapers and other media sources in a traditional way to improve public relations.

[-] 2 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

lol you've answered your own question by the time you were done with your post. But I loved the question.

I would also suggest that these articulate, charismatic and intelligent Occupy spokespeople that are elected by Occupy could be an ever revolving door of spokesmen (they still should be somewhat vetted). This will allow for Occupy to do more real time PR and for them to not fall trap to the crazy guy going on tv pretending to be a spokesman for the group while completely making the movement look bad, trap.

[-] 0 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

Glad to see someone from inside the movement actually talking about our mistakes and trying to get others from inside the movement to do the same. We become stronger when we acknowledge our mistakes and evolve.

[-] 1 points by ChrisLightfoot1986 (21) from Fort Myers, FL 1 year ago

feel free to comment on my blog and pass it along to others please trying to get my voice heard and my ideas spread

http://coalitionforsocialchange.wordpress.com/

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

OWS is a freestyle movement, you never know what you are going to get. Its biggest strength is also its biggest weakness...

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

Seems like the Anarchists in the crowd disagree with you, as they are claiming to be the core of the movement. I thought it was a freestyle movement as well.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

They are, for the most part. People who think otherwise don't hang out that often. Most think it's a Democratic party get together, and sometimes on big events it can look like that, but for the most part, the ones that participate on a regular basis, have one common view...

Fuck em All.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by 71353933 (85) 1 year ago

"It’s just the good guys in OWS lost the battle to the bad guys (in OWS) "

What can or should be done about that?

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 1 year ago

No we didn't lose the battle to the bad guys in OWS. The bad guys in the Occupy movement aren't really Occupiers and they are few. The large majority of this movement (ironically 99% of it)is positive,intelligent, creative and work through non violent actions. The bad guys do not represent these qualities and are trying to hijack this movement. The bad guys succeed if Occupy does not have enough structure to weed out these guys by having a strong a creative PR structure and a message structure. Before they even try to derail this movement they need to know they are NOT welcome and will be singled out(non violently) by the real Occupiers even in the midst of a protests. If we don't do this we fall into the narrative trap that Faux News and other entities wants to put the entire Occupy movement in. We have to be smarter and more creative in order for this movement to thrive.

[-] -3 points by chatman (-478) 1 year ago

occupy needs help with thinking. no pr in the world is going to help you think.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

Insulting. Support OWS. They fight for all working Americans. Vote out Hannity supporting politicians!! Think about that!

[-] -2 points by chatman (-478) 1 year ago

so OWS supports is segregating working Americans from non working Americans?

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

We are anti segregation. Support OWS. Vote out anti minority republicans

[-] -2 points by chatman (-478) 1 year ago

you just said you support "working Americans" what about the non working Americans?

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

We support all Americans. non working retired elderly or handicapped, Even Wealthy non workers. All of us need each other Support OWS. Vote out discriminating republicans.

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

Ows does not support all working people, Ows supports Ows which is why they became a 501c3 Corp.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

Support OWS. Stand with all working americans! Vote out big business lovin Republicans.

[-] -3 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

Keep drinking the Kool Aid

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

Insults are unproductive. I guess you don't stand with working Americans, and support big business lovin republicans. We disagree. Thats all. I can't stand with you against workers. Support OWS. Stand with the 99%. Vote your interests not the interests of the 1% preying on you..

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Democrats just passed 3 more free trade deals this past year.

Great party, eh?

Get rid of all of them.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

free trade is good. I guess you don't like dems. Thats ok. There are plenty I don't like also. I believe we can make them serve the 99%. At least they support unions, alt energy, womens right, immigrants, buffet rule, jobs creation. Republicans are too far gone. Support OWS. Vote out anti union politicians

[-] 4 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

Fair Trade is good. What we currently call Free Trade is an abomination that is hurting this country and its working class.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

Getting it right is tough. Improvement is slow and painful. We can't give up. Support OWS. vote out anti union politicians

[-] 3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Getting it right is not tough, and it is not slow. It is like that because they want it like that, because they sold this nation out.

[-] -3 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

I believe in free trade. It can create more manufacturing jobs in America, It can improve working cond and environment in foreign countries. These benefits never happen immediately. Slow and painful. Support OWS. Vote out anti union republicans

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Listen. Unions are in place to protect workers. There is nothing more detriment to workers than MOVING THEIR JOBS OVERSEAS.

Its the trump card. And it wont lead to more manufacturing in this country until we are the 3rd world and the rest are 1st.

Either you are lying through your teeth, or you simply dont understand it. Either way, stop, you are discrediting a lot of hard working people who got fucked over.

[-] 4 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 1 year ago

Free Trade brings about unfair competition with countries that don't have the environmental, worker health and safety regulatory burden that this country does. It is these very regulations that keep us from being a 3rd world country. These regulations protect the quality of our lives.

Because of our standard of living costs our workers can not compete with workers who make $150/ month, as with China.

Free Trade is a race to the bottom.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

your vulgary is not productive. I will not stop. I have every right to express my opinion. Jobs being moved overseas is perpetrated by large corp who put maximizing profit ahead of workers. We should penalize those corps and they won't move jobs over seas. Unions can benefit from free trade if we open up currently closed markets to our union manufactured products. Support OWS. Vote out outsource lovin republicans

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

PS- if we had a party that represented the people, we wouldnt even be having this conversation. Not signing free trade deals with developing nations is a no brainer.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

You do have every right to express your opinion. We should penalize the corps that do it, and also penalize the politicians that write the international trade legislation that determines this disaster.

Which markets would you consider opening up for our manufacturing, whatever that means?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yes - product made outside of the USA should be tariff'ed on entry to this country to provide for fair competition just like any import. Outsourcing work does not just hurt American Workers - it also hurts domestic business.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

If they supported Unions they wouldnt have signed NAFTA, the most devastating thing to unions ever. Free trade is a libertarian dream state.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

Thats a little too simple. Unions don't like free trade. So be it. dems can't agree with everything Unions want. the truth is, in the end free trade will help all workers and unions as well. We need to unionize other countries. improve working cond in china and our workers might be a little more competitive. long view, Sophisticated, stay strong support OWS. Vote out anti union republicans

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

"....in the end free trade will help all workers and unions as well." Reminds me of Keynes famous quote, "The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." "We need to unionize other countries..." Who is "we"? You may not realize it but you are basically reciting a neoliberal talking point. "Free trade will some day help us all" Sorry,NO. It's something called labor arbitrage. It has never been about anything but a means of exploiting cheap slave wage labor.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

We certainly have benefited from cheap slave labor for all our history. Free trade can help change that but it is slow, & painful. Support OWS. Vote out anti union politicians.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 1 year ago

How is it that you believe that free trade will help. Your sentences are contradictory. Free trade policies have been a weapon to disempower unions, both here and elsewhere.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

In time they can give us leverage to impose union supported benefits for foreign "slave like" labor that big business exploits. Those workers would get better conditions and pay. Our labor could therefore become more competitive. Support OWS. Vote out anti union politicians.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

In what other ways are you fine with screwing over our workers? I have never heard someone who is so misinformed on free trade, its obvious and blatant disrespect of our own workers.

The fact that you are libertarian, free trading supporter, and then claim to be pro union and vote out anti union guy, is so incredibly contradictory, you obviously are not paying attention to things. Im not sure what you hope to gain through spreading your ignorance.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

Criticizing me is unproductive. We've already established that we disagree. I don't wanna screw anyone. Not even the 1% really. I would like to prosecute the criminals who crashed the world economy. And maybe the tools who defend them but otherwise I'm peaceful and loving. Hate kills. Support OWS. Vote out anti union politicians

[-] -3 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

Ows does not represent the 99%, they represent their own politics. I guess you are unhappy with what you are paid. Maybe you should have furthered your education, at least attended some tech school and learned a skill that would be important to some company.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

my personal situation is not relevant. And none of your business. I suppose you just want some info to use in your next insult. You don't think we represent the 99%. We think we do. You don't get to speak for us. you don't get my personal info, you just get more desperate and irrelevant. Support OWS. Stand with your fellow middle class citizens. Don't be a tool of the 1% who have held YOU back. Vote out !% lovin politicians.

[-] -3 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

Since your personnel situation is irrelevant I guess I'm right. Ask 50 people on the street if they think ows represents them.

[-] 5 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

Why dont you lay your personal info? why don't you tell why you need mine?....................................... I don't need to take a poll. I think for myself. Don't you? Support OWS. Support the people marching for economic justice! sleeping on the street to improve workers cond. putting up with police brutality. vote out ant OWS republicans

[Removed]

[-] -3 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

You want my personnel info OK ..... I have a EE from MIT and a masters from the Albert Nerken School of Engineering @ Cooper Union ( electrical Engineering) Your turn.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

Grew up on welfare in the projects of brooklyn, barely got out of high school, accepted to college but couldn't afford, started working full time at 17 yrs old supporting my mother. worked hard. learned Tech. Promoted quickly, frequently, invested, bought property retired 8yrs ago @41 yrs. what do you think of that? you retired yet?

[-] -2 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

Don't want to retire, like my job to much.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20506) 1 year ago

Your fine education was obviously lacking in teaching you compassion and humility.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

Support OWS. Vote out elitist republicans

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

I don't believe you would like to have coffe with me. you seem more like an elitist who got his through an easy life and is afraid he may lose it if someone else gets some. You said clearly you don't care. We must care. We can't survive if we don't care. Support OWS. Votr out uncaring republicans

[+] -4 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

You are right, worked for what I got. I am not asking for a redistribution because I can't provide. It is painfully obvious you want a hand out.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

You brought personal issues 1st. Why.? Are you so stupid you can't read your own posts? Support OWS. Vote out selfish republicans

[-] -3 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

Yes, you are right welfare boy. Keep drinking the kool Aid.

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

You did type "your turn"? didn't you.? I can't explain how requests work to an MIT grad. Perhaps you weren't quite as honest with your bona fides. In any event, it don't matter to me. You started with the personal info dialog. As I said initially it is not relevant. If you did the secondary education you claimed you would know that. You would also be smart enough to know that 401k's are a scam. Support OWS. Vote out anti student aid interest cut republicans!

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20506) 1 year ago

It's typical troll behavior to ask you what your background is and to try to hurl insults at you while dislplaying extreme hubris themselves. Don't take it personally.

[+] -5 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

By the way secondary education is high school just incase you did not realize that ( google it ) and 401k's are not a scam, I guess they are if you do not have one.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

I Don't want a damn thing. Just want the criminals who crashed the world economy prosecuted & punished. You not only bend over for them you ask for another go. Who drank the kool aid? support OWS. Vote out big finance lovin republicans

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

Ahh! it comes out. you just want to put me down.. I don't want anything for nothing I just want to take back my gov from the corp criminals who crashed the world economy and prey on the middle class. Support OWS. vote out uncaring republicans

[-] -3 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

I never put you down.I responded in kind. I would like nothing better than to sit in a diner and have a coffee with you. We would not agree on much but it would be fun.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Elitist asshole - [-] 0 points by Tarty100 (0) 1 minute ago

[-] -1 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

I guees you are to much of an uneducated moron to get and hold a job. Keep standing in front of the White House with your hand out saying "mo please".

[+] -4 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

You are a moron, get on the welfare line asshole.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

You "could care less"? Thats sounds about right. you must be republican

[+] -4 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

You are right I could care less that you never went to college. Keep begging for your fair share it suits you, welfare boy.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

You probably can't retire!.. I realized at 30 yrs old the system was rigged towards property owners not workers. Very few workers make enough to get by, support a fam, retire comfortably, Maybe if you can afford advanced degree or you have family connections. You must do something beyond simply working. so why do you need my personal situation? it was clearly not the narrative suggested. No snide remark? No insult? MIT Boy!

[+] -4 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

I can retire anytime I want, I choose not to. I also never asked for your personnel information. I could care less if you started working at 17, I sent my kids to Duke, Brown and Cal Tech, my 401k is probably worth more than you earned in your entire life.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 1 year ago

I meant "post" secondary. oops. So why did you need to know my personal info.?

[-] 0 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

Didn't, you asked me so I asked you. Makes no difference to me. If you did what you said you did good for you.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Why thank you ever-so-ever. Better to be more - on then off. Check your spelling - I know I know - that is not what you went to school for.

just sayin.


[-] -3 points by Tarty100 (0) 11 minutes ago

You are a moron, get on the welfare line asshole. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Sorry to disappoint - unlike yourself - I am not a masochist - I believe we have already gotten enough abuse by those in the halls of power - Hence the movements "against" greed corruption and white collar crime.


[-] 1 points by Tarty100 (0) 3 minutes ago

I guees you are to much of an uneducated moron to get and hold a job. Keep standing in front of the White House with your hand out saying "mo please". ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I'm sorry I must have been a little un-clear.

Elitist arrogant bigoted blind marching supporter of the greedy corrupt white collar criminals - asshole.

There that is so much clearer.


[-] -1 points by Tarty100 (0) 1 minute ago

You are a moron, get on the welfare line asshole. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20506) 1 year ago

That would be "personal" situation. Be careful about correcting other people if you are so smart yourself.

[-] -1 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

Gee you are right, I misspelled a word. So tell me how long is that line at the welfare office?

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20506) 1 year ago

Gee, with the way things are going in this country I imagine the line is pretty long. Are you aware that 22% of American children live in poverty, that 42% of African American children live in poverty, that 49 million Americans have no health insurance, that our government is bought and paid for by the wealthy and corporations, that foreclosures are at an all time high, that the unemployment rate is 8.1% but really much higher, that 1 in 7 Americans receive food stamps and that many of them work? That corporate profits are at an all time high, but that the ratio of wages to profits is at a low not seen in 70 years. Are you aware that CEO's used to earn 40 times the average worker's wage while today they earn an average of 343 times the average worker's wage, etc. etc. No, you have your head in the sand. Quit hurling insults at people. Quit judging people by what material wealth they've accumulated or not accumulated. That's just total crap.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Love you - you said that so well.

[-] -2 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

OK, what ever you say. It is obvious the you are either unemployed or employed at a low paying job, I do not care what CEO's get paid I care what I get paid. The fact that you are a low paid employee is your fault.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20506) 1 year ago

Of course all you care about is yourself. That's typical behavior from someone with no compassion. Why don't you take a good look at yourself and what you stand for. Here, Michael Jackson can help you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBua1cHwYtc&feature=related

[-] -2 points by Tarty100 (-98) 1 year ago

Stop asking the rest of the world to compensate you because you are a failure.

[+] -4 points by veron (-39) 1 year ago

Here is a truth-based black PR firm that is loathed by the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, the corporations that control the puppet politicians in each, and the false-choice two-party propagandists that infest and dominate this forum:

http://veritasvirtualvengeance.com/

Here is an example of their work:

http://veritasvirtualvengeance.com/2012/04/28/is-att-u-verse-serving-the-people-or-fleecing-the-sheeple/

They have been supporting OWS pro bono since Day One. And unlike @OccupyWallStPR and many here, @VVVPR is not in bed with any Democratic Party false fronts and wastes no time licking the boots of the GE/Comcast scripted talking heads at MSNBC.

Given these credentials, I believe VVV PR would be ideally suited for your purpose.