Forum Post: Does anyone else get the feeling that this movement is fizzing out?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 24, 2011, 9:15 p.m. EST by paulg5
(673)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I'm starting to get the feeling that OWS is becoming un-carbonated real fast! The occupies are becoming trite and less and less attended. There is no substantive thought given to what the next move is going to be. I hope it doesn't fall apart, It's a shame, it shouldn't have been just about camping out and having fun!
No thought on what the next move should be? On December 12th, we're shutting down the west coast! The media WANTS you to think the movement is dying because discouragement is a seed that becomes doubt, and grows into failure. The movement is growing! NEVER lose hope!
You do realize, shutting down ports and businesses doesn't hurt anyone except the hourly wage workers right?
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Oh boy oh boy. Shutting down the west coast is JUST what the Doctor ordered. No wonder the soda has gone flat.
I've always thought a lot of our problems would magically disappear if only the west coast could be shut down. It's amazing somebody hadn't thought of it sooner.
Everyone already knew that OWS was going to go underground come late fall/early winter. Nevertheless some people seem to be awfully eager to start writing obituaries ...
Lot of movements have fizzled out in the past. If you were a critic of right-wing neoliberal policies in the late 80s or mid-90s when economies were roaring, boy, it fizzled out before it started. That's because there was no pressing urgency to any of it, so the media and government was easily able to dismiss it away.
This is completely different. Everyone always knew the costs for those policies was simply being defrayed, that it was borrowing against the future. Well ... the bill has come due. People are paying for them now, the reality has hit the kitchen table. If you have a kitchen table, that is. That's what propels OWS into the streets. If it isn't fixed come spring, OWS will be back. It couldn't dismantle itself if it wanted to. Any government or media types who think it can be dismissed, as similar movements were just poo-poo'd away in the past, is sorely mistaken. As long as the stone cold reality is in everyone's face, it's not going away, it couldn't go away if it tried.
There are a lot of us working behind the scenes who are just getting started.
Bettr believe it brother! Happy thanksgiving all!
Get some rest, even those at war get away from the front for rest and relaxation for a few days. There is plenty happening and we need you.
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'Workin' Them Angels. Overtime!'
If this movement has any chance at all of success, everyone involved across the country needs to converge on Washington DC.
Afterall, that's where the problem with everything in this country stems from.
Lets face it.... All these sorts of posts, aren't OWS'ers. What better way to bring it down, than to 'claim' to be an OWS'er, and then, say things like, "this movement is just fizzing out"....
WE ARE THE WORLD.
WE ARE WATCHING.
Exactly. Most of these people that are so negative about Ows on here are prob right wingers that are teying to demotivate us. Keep fighting Ows! We are winning!
Have any of you read some of the police forums..? I saw a post on one of them seriously with a link to this forum asking who "wants to go trolling?" So yes judging from various message boards (not just police forums, and this is not an anti police post, just saying that is where I saw that statement) there are plenty of trolls on here just trying to be obnoxious.
I don't care. Feel free to watch all you want. I honestly hope it is.
"The great are great only because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" — Max Stirner "Speak, speak, speak, & remember that whenever anyone's liberty to speak is denied, your liberty is denied also, & your place is where the attack is.." — Voltairine De Cleyre "I build no system. I ask an end to privilege, the abolition of slavery, equality of rights, and the reign of law. Justice, nothing else.That is the alpha and omega of my argument." — Pierre-Joseph Proudhon "The State is the curse of the individual. . . The State must go! That will be a revolution which will find me on its side. Undermine the idea of the State, set up in its place spontaneous action, and the idea that spiritual relationship is the only thing that makes for unity, and you will start the elements of a liberty which will be something worth possessing." — Henrik Ibsen
Other people are smarter than me.... so I pay attention.... just saying
I'm glad you found the copy and paste keys on your keyboard. Its called fanaticism when you take someone's ideas and philosophies blindly and follow just them. Put your own spin on it and you would get a little bit more respect from me at least. Not that it matters much to you.
o.k. yes.... but it was done with intent, and good-will! MY spin... is that I AM watching. And telling my friends, who are telling their friends, and we will stand tall, and fight, and speak, and will action change! MY spin is that they too will and that your very presence only strengthens this movement further....
“Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising every time we fall”. Confucius
Ctrl C, Ctrl V.... much easier... smart guy, pay attention. That's my spin.
I'm starting back at the top. I think thats the most number of posts we can have before it cuts us off. Thank you
The seven National Crimes by William J.H. Boetcker:
I don’t think. I don’t know. I don’t care. I am too busy. I leave well enough alone. I have no time to read and find out. I am not interested.
"They will be made to lose interest in public affairs...." - George Orwell, 1984 - written yesteryear
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/republicans-being-taught-talk-occupy-wall-street-133707949.html
Sounds good in the sense that you aren't giving up. Its command for me I'm on an ancient Mac.
Yay! We agree!! We have unity! command...lol....
"knowledge is not power, rather, the path to power" - All me
Mundus vult decipi - round for a long time....
Never give up. - round for much longer!
lol
"Love is the sincerest form of flattery"- me as well.
"It is my choice to be kind, to those that are kind, and, it is my choice to be kind, to those that are unkind" - I Ching
"There is only one cure. Unity." - All me!
"I came, I saw, I conquered, I gave it back" Me on general American operations
"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill." Sun Tzu
"War is deception" - Sun Tzu
"The truth will set you free" - God (source unverified, lol)
"How the hell did we end up in this place?" - All me, lol
"If our soldiers are not overburdened with money, it is not because they have a distaste for riches; if their lives are not unduly long, it is not because they are disinclined to longevity." Sun Tzu
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." Albert Einstein
"Spinning wheels gets the truck stuck better" Me paraphrasing I think
World peace will come when the power of love, overcomes the love of power." - lenny kravitz
"there is no road to peace, peace is the road" - Bob Marley
"Never trust a man that doesn't drink" - Winston churchill
"Party!!!!" - extra # 3 (bill and teds greatest adventures)
"Hmmmmmmm" - all me
Just check out my post I have 10 there by William Boetcker and 1 from Abraham Lincoln
http://occupywallst.org/forum/wisdom-from-abraham-lincoln-or-william-j-h-boetcke/
AWESOME!!!! Ha! Wisdom! Thats what we need more of! Wisdom! Listen to the sages! Listen to our ancestors!
Carpe diem! - some latin guy
World peace is at hand! - several people in these very forums! including me!
Couldn't reply to that last one.
"In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be wrong." Abraham Lincoln
"Its got to start somewhere" A lot of people
"Yeah! That's the spirit!" - Coach Bill
"cliche's become cliche's for a reason" - Dr Phill
"It's got to start somewhere" - Kingscrossection
lol
We're gonna win. - Me
If one is really serious about substantive thought, then get behind and publicize this:
The 99% Declaration https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
That my friend is a depressingly bogus website! I had voted before by choosing the “sign petition to the white house link”, and it worked fine a few weeks ago. This time it doesn't accept my password and doesn't send me any emails that would allow me to activate my current password or create a new one. So I can't vote, maybe I got booted because the system didn't like what I was voting for the first time. You can't trust this fuc_ing government it's all smoke and mirrors!
What do you think of the actual document?
I think it addresses alot of the issues, maybe to many, shouldn't be to nit picky at first, if you take away all of their perks you'll have less and less support from inside. Elaborating on the main issues the most damaging to the 99% is what should be presented as the 99%'s "do or die" agenda! But if the website is rigged all that work is for nothing because the amount of votes needed will never be achieved!
here's a status update that may explain some of the problems you're having on the site.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/update-on-the-99-declaration-and-the-national-gene/
So would you like to see the National General Assembly happen?
Yes I like the idea! I live outside Philadelphia very near the nations most poverty stricken city Reading PA.
http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/278984/28/Reading-PA-is-Americas-most-poverty-stricken-city
A cut and paste reply to another topic:
Your top priorities differ from her top priorities differs from his top priorities. Therefore the priority is to hold a National General Assembly (NGA) where a list of top priorities can be hammered out coming from the roots, what I call the congressional District General Assemblies (DGA's) or 'spokes councils'. The final 'official' act of the NYCGA is to announce the NGA.
OWS exercised its 1st Amendment right to peaceably assemble.
OWS MUST exercise its 1st Amendment right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
This is the one thing 100% of Americans will understand.
Yes I know I read it I get it! as the lord said......... "ask and you shall receive, Seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you"
Why isn't the Federal Reserve the main target. Since 1913 our government has slowly eroded into their fiat money system fractional banking system control. History has shown us how these elite bankers have financed both sides of a war and how they have gained more power and resources. They have been moving towards a one world currency with the elite running things and socialism for the rest. In time freedom will cease to exist, if we don't stop them.
Interesting to listen to Alan Greenspan's apology for his part in the totally skewed market economy direction of the Federal Reserve. He belatedly saw the flaws in his management when the whole thing lost its wheels. One has to ask oneself, at what point does the principal amount of the mortgage become payable? Secondarily, who pays? I can tell you who doesn't.
We are riding ALL over that in this forum. Please join us here and add your input. There are some things here I bet even you haven't learned yet. Excellent resources. This IS the nexus-people just don't realize yet. Is complex. http://occupywallst.org/forum/interesting-read-about-the-constitution-and-corpor/#comment-413890
No way!
The movement is worldwide.
We in Occupy Edinburgh have gained official backing from the Edinburgh City council - maybe a world first.
http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/news/28067-occupy-edinburgh-gains-backing-from-edinburgh-council/
Edinburgh City councillors have voted to back the Occupy Edinburgh movement, which has been located in St Andrew Square since mid-October.
I think you will find that this movement is unstoppable. It will ebb and flow. It will fizzle in one city and suddenly erupt in another. Suddenly, it will reappear even stronger in a city where the banks thought it had gone away.
If cities are giving official recognition to the Occupy Movement, you know that there is a sea change coming. If I were the banks, I would be worried. We have them on the run.
It's probably a shortcoming of OWS that there is no place to go to voice an opinion about its direction, in the knowledge that it will be read by its leaders. Oh, right. Maintain.
I don't think that it was about camping out and having fun. That is just a by-product of a gathering.
I believe that much of the movement has gone to ground. Planning, digesting and review is a good thing. There needn't be a full frontal assault everywhere, all the time. Not yet.
There has been a line drawn in the sand and a few cities ended up kicking it. That won't change the direction or motivation that has developed as a response to calling out the power-that-be. The Corps are worried and too many important things are now being discussed by the little people.
We're not leaving. We don't have a choice. We can, however, work underground, too. D12 will just serve as a reminder that we are still around.
We cannot let them get away with what they have done to this country and to peoples lives. Like children who have misbehaved they must be punished!
I agree with the comparison to children. I believe that the best course we have is to take away their toys, which are, of course, financial instruments that oppress. So, it will take time, organization and legislation. That means that we need to take back government. I know that I've already paid for my government. I have many. many receipts for payment, but I can't seem to find what I bought...
Bill O'Reilly says OWS is dead. Must be true. On your knees, Bill O'Reilly. JFK for president.
Bill O'Reilly has got to be the biggest SMACKED ASS on telivision today.
Yes
Yes good, or yes bad? I'm starting to think it's not the evictions but the media that has turn attention away from OWS. I guess it will take larger marches and more disruptions to get that attention back.
The media has not turned away from OWS. There are allies in the media. CNN is not news. CSNBC. A little left (but who wouldn't be). Smart people, well-reasoned positions, and an underlying desire to tell the truth in spite of themselves. Let's not be confused that Fox News deserves the title. Maintain.
Agree...media has long moved onto another cycle.
As long as corruption isn't fizzling out this movement will grow not fizzle. Love u. Peace.
Keep the faith!
I have no idea if this movement is dying out but I think that their camping days are over, I am not even sure if they have a plan B or they are holding out because of the winter. I guess we will know soon.
I don't think the sleepovers are necessary anymore in small numbers any way. The flash mob technique will work just as well if not better, and there are some more strategic tactics we haven't seen yet from the 99%, have you ever heard of the keystone cops!
What is keystone cops?
Beep.........Beep.............Try google! I guess we'll have to wait and see now won't we!
Ok the keystone cops that pressured Obama about the Keystone Pipeline and got it pushed back. Correct?
The statement wasn't a a trick question or anything like that, more of a cosmic improvisation.....
Well ok you tell me. I looked it up and I got Keystone Cops the vaudeville act basically a bunch of cops acting stupid. Then I got an article on how the rest of the world looks at the US and Europe as acting like the keystone cops. Then I finally got the meaning that you intended.
OWS is MUCH better off with an average leader, who is not great, then no leader at all. If everyone worked TOGETHER at one thing a time, THEN we could get somewhere.
Instead everyone is going off in their own direction with few followers and little help.
THE HUGE power of UNITY and Consensus is BEING totally wasted without leaders.
I am getting tired of arguing with everyone -
I agree, issues should be prioritized and dealt with in that order small groups going off in tangents are basically just discussion groups that rarely achieve anything other than an understanding of the problem and a lot of wasted time!
no, its growing like a (good) virus!
yes a packaged virus, LOL!
There has to be some sort of leadership and planning to defeat the tyrant government officials who are draining the People! If no organization then it will all fall apart soon because as of now many unbelievers do not have faith in the OWS. It is a shame because this movement has come at the right time for the People!
But who!....... all the candidates that are out there are all 1%ers. And not one of them could tell the difference between shit and apple butter! So we don't even have a choice between stupid and 1%, were Fu_ked!
never got the feeling it had any legs. I know the "members" of OWS are going to scream bloody murder at this post, but it's the truth. Glad they shut down the park...now my newborn can sleep. It is very easy to blame others for your misfortunes and that is the true theme of OWS...not to mention anti-Semitic un-American rhetoric.
Dumb stupid morons.
No, I definitely don't have that feeling. On the contrary, the flame has already spread out to other cities and states and countries. It's never about camping out and having fun. Those are just things on surface but caming out is a symbol. People are working on things behind the scene. Camping out is just on the scene thing.
What would OWS not collapsed, I wrote a post yesterday. No answer! It's sad, but it seems you are right.
Por lastima...
Nope, it's not fizzling out.... not in the sense you speak of that is :).
This isn't a camp out, though having some fun is good too, it makes it more bearable. Nor is this a protest. If it were, yeah there would have been a demand or two, legislation would be introduced to change one or two rules; nothing enough to change the real balance but enough that continued protest would not be sustained, and this would be the end of it. Which how I am sure that they know exactly what they are doing when they don't pick one or two demands even when so many are screaming for it either because they are shortsighted and don't know what is going on, or because they know what it means and are insisting on demands that can be checked of or labeled impossible, specifically to make sure this dies fast.
The system is rigged at so many levels that one or two fixes will not be enough and will allow work arounds to be found to weaken those fixes almost as soon as they become law anyway. And they can't pre-emt the protesters either, by fixing a few easier things just to show what good guys they are, since the powers that be fucked things up badly enough that they aren't even in a spot where they can put a band aid on the problems big enough to fool people into thinking things are on their way to being fixed. They already have tried--that's what Obama was up yo when he made the executive order to allow student loan re-consolidation-- if he can satisfy the youth, they will go home fooled into thinking the future is bright, the occupation will end. It's not going to work this time-- the media can't fool us anymore now that we can get new out without them, and a few percent shaved off student loans aren't going make the economic realities that much better, and so the reasons people are protesting will still be there, and getting worse all the time. And so there will be all manner of dissent :)
But it's not going to be just a steady surge that doesn't end and gets bigger and bigger until we win. Or at least not until the very last stages if they are stupid enough to let it go there. This will be waves and troughs till then.
And we are just at the very start of this.
The visible, boots on the ground part of occupy is only a little over two months old (though the wheel was turning for some time underground before they hit the streets). But movements do not unfold over a timescale of months. Movements occur over years.
So it's not unusual in the winter and after the initial excitement that there will be a trough. The protests won't disappear, but they'll get smaller and serve more as a place holder. By the end of next month almost everyone might go home even, if not then the month after, this does not mean it's over, just underground. People will get some well deserved rest, re-group, tweak the plans for the next stage, and sure big sectors of the media will triumphantly call it dead. Lulls in the action happen naturally most times, and if they didn't planning them in and making sure they happened would be the smartest thing to do. People with boots on the ground get fatigued. The public and media get sick of talking about it. That's ok.
Most runners would agree that if you try to run a marathon at a full sprint, you won't even make the finish line. Anyone with the motivation to plan and pull off a movement (and don't let the fearful supporter or the angry opposition convince you otherwise, that is what this is, it's been a long time coming) would have done their homework and planned far ahead. Just because they haven't made the next move or told you, don't assume there is none-- it was planned before they even bought their tents. Because even if you could manage it, keeping it up at the same strength for 6 or 8 months is a better way to kill a promising movement from sheer fatigue than letting it die down for a bit now an then. The public gets a rest from the topic but a lot of people will be mulling it over and thinking about it, the opposition gets complacent and crow about ows defeat and how the dwindled size of protests has killed it, and the activists rest and plan and.....
:) Don't worry, I predict spring and summer of 2012 will be interesting times in American history.
.
there is a reason why some think ows is fizzling out. Ows had a huge day on Nov 17. After that big day everything else seems 'weak' in comparison. But its really not. Ows is here to stay.
I think that the movement feels like its fizzing out because we are near the holidays. I would not be surprised to see the movement kinda slow down for the next month until the new year, and then people will start to show up again.
Tell why you protest at http://takewallst.blogspot.com/
The movement is getting STRONGER, its far from 'fizzing out". OWS is a ever-evolving movement, right now the temps are getting colder and the movement will have to adapt/evolve to its new reality. But its GAINING momentum not losing it
I've been an OWS supporter and activist from day one and I think it is of extreme importance to keep up our enthusiasm. On the other hand it is not especially useful for us to lie to ourselves either and the fact it, given the tasks that it has set before itself (completely transforming society and changing the world) it is still pathetically weak and we have to keep reminding ourselves of how weak we still are and how much work remains before us.
I Dont think its lying to ourselves when we say the movement is getting stronger, it is. We still have alot of work to do but we are far from weak.
We are pathetically horribly weak. We live in a nation of nearly 300 million people. The number of "supporters" that OWS has is basically irrelevant. What matters is the number of actual activists that OWS has who, if not actually occupying at least go to an occupation or a GA on a fairly regular basis. According to the most reliable figures I've seen the number of actual OWS activists is in the vicinity of 200 K. In a nation as large as ours that is nothing, less than nothing. When we have 10 or 20 million people in the streets (still less than 1% of the population) then we can begin (but just begin) to talk about a serious movement.
I predict we will be there by the end of summer, or if not then after the elections. Mainly because they are too stupid not to pull something big by then, but too many people are watching and waiting for it this time.
The strength of ows after 2 months is not what makes me so confident, though I am very pleased with where we are (while you are right, we are weak, tell me of any other movement that wasn't at two months or indeed, was further than we have gotten, even the ones that changed the world). But I have no doubts whatsoever about the sheer arrogance and stupidity of our opponents.
They have all the cards so they look stronger than they are, but greed and decadence doesn't make for good soldiers, they have atrophied from their blind surety that their system is too entrenched, while failing to note that their game has been toughening us up. They thought they won years ago, and it doesn't even occur to them that this won't be gone by new year. That's ok, surprises are lots of fun :)
"Does anyone else get the feeling that this movement is fizzing out?"
Like week old soda.
But I'm curious to see what happens on 12/12.
All this might be for nothin!
Support the Revolution!
http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
The Revolution starts here! No one can silence the Revolution!
How is this for substantive thought?
College foundations and endowments have all the money for their professors and administrators who retire on a fat pensions and continue to get pay raises at the expense of many students subjecting themselves to burdensome loans..................that does not have to be ...these endowments and foundations could be accessed to help payoff student loans....
What happens when the endowments are gone?
Hell no! This will be going on in one form or another for the next ten years (at least). It's not like the issues are going away.
Who thinks of sleeping on concrete for two months and getting pepper sprayed and beaten up by the police as fun? Certainly the rate of growth may have slowed down, but new people are coming to OWS and organizing new GAs and new occupations everyday.
Sorry for comming off as disrespectful! now that the 24 hour park is gone it seems like the movement is winding down! Believe me if I were 30 years younger I probably would have been barred from entering the city! I would hate to see all you energy and efforts go to waste!
First of all, the 24 hour park is not gone. OWS is still occupying Zuccotti Park, albeit without sleeping bags or tents, which obviously has put a dent in their community there, but just today they served over 4000 Thanksgiving Dinners in Zuccotti Park, not exactly and indication of the encampment being gone. Beyond that there are re-occupation plans.
And OWS is a lot bigger and more diverser and widespread than an encampment at Zuccotti Park. There are hundreds of encampments all over the nation and new ones cropping up every day. There are hundreds more all over the world, the most significant and notable right now being in Tahrir Square. Personally I'm 68 years old and I've seen people of all ages and in all sorts of physical conditions at occupations. The other day Pete Seger at the age of 92 marched 30 blocks on cains from Symphony Space to Columbus Circle in support of OWS.
funny how the park OWS claims to occupy is owned by a 7 Billion Dollar publicly traded real estate company who owns property all over the world. seems a bit hypocritical no?
hypocritical on whose part? People talk about good people and bad people, hypocrites and scoundrels. Personally, I think that's human nature. There are good people and bad people, hypocrites and scoundrals in the 1% and in the occupy movement. While it would be nice if everybody on one side was an ass hole and everybody on the other was perfect, but that's not the way the world works. The important thing is whose material interests are served by a particular movement or by a particular way of organizing society.
so OWS is using a park owned by a company who represents everything OWS claims to stand for. seems ironic.
I think the most important thing about occuying a visible public space (public in the sense of being open and visble, not who technically own it--the street in front of Rockefeller Plaza is actually owned by Columbia University--not that anyone would know it--they throw a chain across it every year for one day to maintain their technical ownership) is that it occupys a visible public space. The most important thing is that it is that the occupation is there so that people walking by at any hour of the day or night can find out about it. The other important thing is the beginning of a community that serves as a model for the kind of society we want to build. Take away the cops. Replace the tents with modest permanent homes (not literally there, of course--itis a model, not the thing itself) and provide adequate toilet and shower facilities for everyone and you have a model of the kind of society we are aiming at. Of course it is far from perfect. It is very difficult to take the homeless and other social rejects and learn how to integrate them into a democratic society as equals, and we will make mistakes, but we are learning as we go and we have a very, very long way to go.
i am well aware of Rock Plaza's ownership. I am just saying that OWS using the park owned by Brookfield is like me trying to gain support about why we shouldn't eat meat and speaking about it from a steak house.
No it's not, it's the same old claim that's been made here time and again wrapped up with a new bow to pretty it up- it's still just an empty box though. Same thing as saying you are hypocrites- protesting corporate oligarchies yet you use i-phones and wear Nikes, or No fair, you peasants can't stand at the gates chipping away at the foundation, you got those pitchforks and shovels from the lord of the castle.
It's a bullshit argument.
There are many reasons symbolic and tactical for using that park, so many that even if your argument held water, the pro reasons would trump it. Conveniently though, your argument is bunk and the fact that the park is privately owned only adds a couple more reasons to why it was the best possible choice. Privitization of shared spaces and institutions is one of the cancers in the system that serve the interests of the 1%, not the people. Also, there is some inconvenience that protests do in fact inflict on the infrastructure and public, this inevitability can not be eliminated, only tempered by planning and making choices so that is kept to a minimum for the average joe, and to the maximum for the institutions that are symptoms and tools of the system you are trying to change. Nothing could me more appropriate than taking over a public space that has private owners. They shouldn't own it to begin with. Neither should our prisons be owned privately or the many other things that belong to the public trust but are being sold to the highest bidder.
they shouldn't own it to begin with? it should be given to you? they have every right to own it. and you have no business their
No they shouldn't own it, any more than private interests should own our prisons, the government has no business selling public lands and institutions. It's another neo-liberal policy against the interests of the citizenry.
And we do have business there, if it were as cut and dry as you think they would have been able to evict occupiers for trespassing in the first few days. But the fact is, despite who owns it, it remains public space and the bulk of questions surrounding ows use of it fall under rules of use of public spaces, including use for political protest, not laws concerning private property.
Your name suits you, since you talk out your ass about legal issues that are obviously way over your head.
funny the last paragraph of any response from any supporter of OWS ends nasty. Do you know who owns the park and why it remains public space, for now? Can you answer that without using google on your Ipad made in China?
Funny how you can be hypocritical enough to call foul when your own nasty is turned back at ya, or are you claiming the name wasn't meant to serve as a jab at the mean old opposition you now whine is not civil enough toward your use of straw man arguments repeated ad nauseum to make up for the fact that they don't stand long based on their actual merit.
And yes I can, I did my research on this topic almost 2 months ago when the occupy actions first hit my radar, but this argument is pointless since you are not likely to even come to a point to agree to disagree, much less be swayed by logic to meet in the middle or change your mind. I can spend my time better elsewhere and am ending my part in this exchange here. Look it up yourself if you feel the need :).
PS--I use a refurbished pc and an open source OS, but if even if I didn't, I already addressed the flimsy reasoning behind that little jab above, though that clearly flew right over your head along with the rest.
Happy holidays either way :)
1 PRIORITY. Lot's of people agree. You on board?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-only-issue-the-only-issue-get-money-out-of-pol/
I am indeed on board, but must add that hand in hand with this is insisting that black box voting machines be eliminated. Only machines with open source code or none at all, otherwise moneyed interests still have a crucial way to fiddle in the peoples business.
Ultimately the more important thing is that the movement is visible and that is able to build community where it is, not where it is or who owns where it is or whether that constitutes some kind of contradiction. Of course it would be better if it didn't contain that kind of contradiction but the sad fact is we would never have been able to establish an occupation at a totally public park from day one give the extraordinarily restrictive curfew laws that are currently in place in NYC. Several efforts to do that subsequent to day one have always been met with the massive presence of riot police. Of course that is where we need to establish a presence in a genuinely public park, but to do that will require considerably larger forces than we are currently able to muster and the best way to recruit and organize those forces is to try to establish some toe hold on open space anywhere, no matter who happens to technically own it.
how about all of the OWS's putting money together and leasing space maybe in a large warehouse in Queens or Brooklyn? you know, pay rent?
Well that might be a useful place to store thing and perhaps have Working Group meetings or maybe even teach ins, but having a visible public open space occupied 24/7 is essential to engage passers by at any hour of the day or night and also to build the kind of community we seek which attracts people precisely because of its public visiblity
so OWS should continue to "occupy" space that does not belong to them as opposed to occupying space that actually belongs to them? seems like a common theme wanting and taking and feeling entitled to what others have as opposed to earning for themselves.
No, it's public space, that was part of the deal that was made when the park was bought, it had to remain public space. And public space can be used for the people to assemble. So it is privately owned, but for now it belongs to the public.
There are many sectors where such deals are made. Our prisons are being privitised as well, many of them no longer belong to the state. But part of the deal for the owners of privatised prisons is that they couldn't say, decide they want to turn that prison into a college campus and evict all the prisoners (though the scary part of privatised prisons is that the more Americans that are imprisoned the more money they make, so this industry and the prison guard industry are the biggest lobbyists for new laws and longer sentences for current ones). Same as the way the owners of privatised roads do not get to close them, that was part of the contract allowing them to be built.
But attitudes like yours are one reason that privatising public space and institutions is dangerous to the citizens, it blurs lines that should be clear.
Well, the New York Stock Exchange, the national headquarters of the Bank of America and dozens of other entities of the 1% don't belong to the 99% either, but I think it would be wonderful if OWS had the numbers and the strength to occupy them.
Yeah... It's back building... The fires of democracy have unlimited fuel, but sometimes we gotta take time for family. That's what this is really all about... the children.
Workin' Them Angels. Overtime! 222 days...
The American form of government is the oldest republican form of government in the world, and is exercising a pronounced influence in modifying the governments of other nations. Our Constitution has been copied in whole or in part throughout the earth. Were not a Democracy, we are a Constitutional Republic.
As long as we have true representation by our elected officials.
Not really!
there is plenty of substantive thought about what the next move will be. Are you trolling?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPR3GlpQQJA
I have been active here since the very beginning, and since the very beginning I have been trying to make some core points. These points clearly have not been digested or fully understood by the mob, and so I'm going to try to make a further attempt here again.
For these reasons, I beg of you to please immediately join me on the wiki. We need to have all of these details and all of these ideas put together in an organized fashion, rather than posted in a long scrawl which will never be read.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=CMbY87bB-qsCFUPt7Qod9HE8mQ
http://maplight.org/us-congress/guide/data/money?9gtype=search&9gkw=list%20of%20campaign%20donations&9gad=6213192521.1&9gag=1786513361&gclid=CP61oYbB-qsCFQFZ7AodcTF0jw
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/our-new-wiki/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/non-violence-evolution-by-paradigm-shift/
“The bank hath benefit of interest on all moneys which it creates out of nothing.” William Paterson, founder of the Bank of England in 1694, then a privately owned bank
“Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.” Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild.
“I am afraid the ordinary citizen will not like to be told that the banks can and do create money. And they who control the credit of the nation direct the policy of Governments and hold in the hollow of their hand the destiny of the people.” Reginald McKenna, as Chairman of the Midland Bank, addressing stockholders in 1924.
I think alot of TRUTH is shared on this forum. I have learned alot and have shared as well.
I was standing up screaming long before anyone ever heard of Occupy.
Don't be a pussy.
The talking heads in my home town are promoting that feeling:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/washinton-dc-9-news-nows-derrek-mcginty-lets-be-re/
One can hope the movement is dying. This will boil down to the makers vs the takers and I know what side I am on.
Maybe you, not me I'm tired of Slavery!
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The OWS clan is dying fast. It currently has a approval rating of 1%. You loons ruined it by the thefts, rapes, murders, social unrest
site your sources?
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Nope; this is just first tremors of the volcano eruption. There is no solution to present situation to help the one per cent. Keep it up, mate.
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Good riddance. You still need to work hard in this wonderful country to be a success. That is what OWS missed from day one. All they want is handouts and a free ride. Whoever told members of OWS that life was going to be easy....they lied...sorry. Happy to see them fizzle out.
Ows wont go away. We wont fizzle out. We will continue to be the thorn in wall streets side for years to come. Get used to us cuz we Arent going anywhere.
you are far from a thorn in the side of wall street. this is delusional thinking which i see is common among OWS. wall street will continue to do what it does...always has and always will....regardless of what a bunch of under-achieving self absorbed cry babies say or do.
from reuters;
According to the MSNBC show “Up w/Chris Hayes,” the Washington, D.C.-based lobbying firm Clark Lytle Geduldig & Cranford (CLGC) compiled a “secret” plan to undermine Occupy Wall Street for the American Bankers Association. For $850,000, the firm pledged to take aim at Occupy, which the memo says threatens to “have very long-lasting political, policy, and financial impacts on the companies in the center of the bullseye," particularly if it is embraced by the Democratic Party.
You watch too much Fox News.
actually don't watch Fox. I work on Wall Street and have for several decades. OWS poses no threat to me or anyone I know or any of the major institutions you cry about. It is fine if you think that but the facts are what they are.